Mini Normal 1848 — Game Over!

[copper223]

VOTE: HS

Yo, seems like most of our latest newbie crew is back, let's have a good game guys!

[copper223]

Good observation Misa, it is true though that TB also did the same thing, how come you noticed my case in particular?

Having just finished a game with HumanSequencer where he was very active very often his lack of confirmation seemed like a good place to start investigating.

[copper223]

Good observation Misa, it is true though that TB also did the same thing, how come you noticed my case in particular?

Having just finished a game with HumanSequencer where he was very active very often his lack of confirmation seemed like a good place to start investigating.

Hmm.. So.. what your saying is your reading that she may have a power role she doesn't understand and had to ask about it and its why she didn't confirm.. why would you talk about that meta as a green? like doesn't it just benefit reds?

Nope, none of the above belongs to my line of thinking, also if that were the case HS would have had to talk to Key and ask him about his role and he would have been indirectly confirmed.

I thought the possibility that HS had received a scum PM and did not want to play that role was a place to start, I also had other reasons.

@Chaos
Is that an RVS vote?

[copper223]

No. I'm ok with his post 9, but I don't like his response to Uzi's 11. It seems weird that his response to a second player doing something he finds suspicious is to not push either of them on it and go back to his RVS vote. Reads like he's trying to look like he's scumhunting, but bows under any pressure to avoid conflict.

It's possible but my current assessment is that she is a new townie, I'm interested in her next posts.

[copper223]

I haven't even posted yet!

Well known in have but that is not the point!

VOTE: Creeps

Do you have a guilty conscience Creeps?

[copper223]

@Creeps
Normally games on mafiascum start with a random voting stage (check the wiki if you want more info), that's likely why TwoFace came up with your name, despite there being no posts from you.

One possible reason for your reaction, assuming you didn't know about the random voting stage (RVS) convention, is that you are scum and surprised there is already a vote on you, is that it?

[copper223]

I actually voted Naomi instead of Chaos literally just because I remember her one of the few people who has a 2+ year old account, I forgot what the other one is

I already thought this was the case, it also explains why she noticed my vote on the inactive HS before she noticed TB's vote on the inactive drone.

Her backing up when she was told about drone and going back to Naomi is more a sign that she is new and not super confident of how to scum-hunt, so if she's told that line of inquiry is bad by multiple people she'll likely change her mind and go back to where she was before.

I see the above more likely as "bowing to pressure", it doesn't make much sense to pick fights with experienced players by default and be trying to avoid looking for trouble at the same time.

Misa, what's the game you're referencing where you played with Creeps? Creeps is weird, not sure yet if it's weird scum.

[copper223]

FOS: TF.

[copper223]

@TF
You are producing a lot of IIoA and your posting is pretty stale, I don't see an effort to game solve.

[copper223]

I'm also a bit uncomfortable with having lynchbaity Creeps (not that lynchbait can't be scum but it's easy to mistake them for it when they are not and I believe him when he says that's how he comes off as town as well) at L-2 when players have not yet chimed in, I'll unvote if it reaches L-1.

[copper223]

@TF
That's fair, but you seem to be focusing on the wrong things for someone that is supposedly trying to figure out if his neighbor is a communist (that is slang for looking for scum if someone is confused).

P-edit: aha, that's more interesting.

[copper223]

@Naomi
I can see why you'd read both as green (I don't mind using this terminology if most of you prefer it, I don't find the usual ones like scum offensive though, it's just the role you were given in the game, not a value judgement of you as a person) but for me it's too early to make an informed decision.

Let's not forget the inactives.

@HS
What didn't you like in TF''s latest posts? I thought his interaction with Mort was fine (for now at least).

[copper223]

No worries Key, you're doing just fine.

[copper223]

@HS
That's basically why I was FOS'ing him a few pages back, but I find him being willing to admit there wasn't much going on that had pinged him, a good sign.

[copper223]

@TF
I haven't changed my mind from the last time I gave that read, I think her checking the experienced players first and noticing I had voted an inactive was an early attempt to game solve and that points at her being town.

I don't find that to match well with Chaos's point that her going back to Naomi was her bowing to and wanting to avoid pressure.

I did note the point Naomi made (which you also brought up in another way together with Uzi) that she could be scum over-pushing Creeps and that she was over-selling her outrage there but not having played with her and not knowing how volatile she usually is I put more weight in my early read.

[copper223]

Sure, I'll explain this. Copper made a statement that essentially said: I am voting someone I think is lynchbait

(therefore town)

and I will unvote them if they get to L-1. So he's not voting a SR and he's not voting for pressure. It's a parked pointless vote - by his own reasoning - and I think that behavior is more likely to come from scum than town.

The highlighted is false, lynchbait is a player that comes off as scum due to play stile

always

regardless of alignment.

I explain that here:

I'm also a bit uncomfortable with having lynchbaity Creeps (

not that lynchbait can't be scum

but it's easy to mistake them for it when they are not and I believe him when he says that's how he comes off as town as well)

That also explains why I am not thrilled with quickly hammering a player like Creeps, the chances of misreading him, due to his lynchbaity playstile, are much higher than usual and scum can safely join these kind of wagons without being much questioned about it.

On the other hand I am also not sure he actually isn't scum (although his latest posting where he said he was afraid to post in fear of getting lynched makes me lean towards town) so what my vote accomplished was keeping the pressure one him.

At least 1 of you that jumped on this is most likely scum.

[copper223]

Scum can definitely be lynchbait because that's about your playstile and not what alignment you roll in a game, what happens when a player that is lynchbait as town plays another game and rolls scum, he magically becomes not lynchbait?

[copper223]

That doesn't happen often with lynchbait because they either play like this on purpose to WIFOM or they are new to the game so that's the only way they know how to play (other than lurk out of games I guess), which I think is the case here.

Lynchbait means you bait lynches on yourself (because of the way you play), that says nothing about your alignment (so if you were using it that way you misunderstand the term).

Regardless of what you believe, it's pretty obvious I do not use that term in the way Mort suggested (since I literally specified that lynchbait can be scum in the post he misunderstood or misrepped).

[copper223]

Right I saw you said it can be scum, but I disagreed with you and felt it was a scummy post.

saying you will unvote when he gets to l-1 is bad play imo. It takes pressure off someone people are scum reading and also makes you seem like you weren't really committed to it. If that's the case why are you on it to begin with?

Oh yeah that's bad.

The over explanation about scum being can be lynch baity makes it bad. Scum can't be lynch bait

This needs a flip. Should I vote?

Heads

VOTE: copper

You are flip flopping, your main accusation when you voted me was that lynchbait can't be scum and

that

is what makes my post bad.

Now you are saying that you understood me when I said lynchbait can be scum, but you disagree (there is nothing to agree or disagree on, I am stating a fact about what a term means), so in your mind us disagreeing on how to use a term makes you want to flip me?

As I explained once already I wanted to keep the pressure on (and that worked fine given Creeps later posted he was so scared of getting lynched he was afraid to comment) but also warn the rest of town that Creeps was already at L-2 and that I did not consider it appropriate to lynch him at that time (because of the considerations I already made), something that was very relevant since soon after ThinkBig declined to vote Creeps to avoid putting him at L-1.

If you believe the town is supposed to town-read you for "admitting" you have no reads (which is by no means a given), that makes your statement about having no reads NAI at best by the way.

[copper223]

What part of:

Lynchbait can't be scum, so copper saying so means he is likely scum and I am going to vote him.

AND

copper says Creeps is lynchbait (which is a playstyle comment and he can be either scum or town) but I disagree on how he is using that term.

looks in any way

literally

the same to you?

[copper223]

I did not misread anything.

If you believe I genuinely use the term the way I define it (which is the correct way), your reason for voting me which I bolded is pure bullshit.

The only way that vote accusation makes sense is if you a) don't understand what the term means and b) think I suffer from the same misunderstanding that lynchbait can only be town so me using it in that context is a slip that I know Creep's alignment.

You later admitting that you understood me the first time makes assumption b) false by definition.

[copper223]

@TF
What's your HS read?

[copper223]

What a dumb semantic argument. No matter what you meant by lynchbait, what good does it do to pressure lynchbait? They'll just do more scummy things. I don't see anyone defending Creeps...

That is about the reason TF stated for voting me and whether it can be considered genuine or not given his stated beliefs, why are you calling it semantics and going on an unrelated tangent?

There is a qualitative difference between the kind of scummy things you see from town and scum, because scum has hidden knowledge and the more they are nervous and the more content you make them produce the more it's likely part of that knowledge is going to seep into their posting, pretty much regardless of their play-style.

[copper223]

By the same token, it's easy for scum to pressure weak players and jump on their responses as scummy. I'm not convinced.

I am not here to convince you, I am here to find scum and the players that jumped on this nonsense while constantly shifting the reasons for why I might be doing something as scum to fit their narrative are prime suspects.

[copper223]

VOTE: Mort

It's a toss-up but I believe it's more likely for TF to be a VI that doesn't get the difference between bad (in his mind) and scum, as opposed to Mort misreading what to me looks like a pretty obvious statement about lynchbaits, they could also both be scum but that seems less likely.

Also instead of re-examining your read after stating you had misunderstood Mort, you try to find new avenues of attack and that smacks of scum sticking to their read.

[copper223]

@Mort
Regardless of your belief that my vote did not serve much of a purpose, although that is pretty hard to maintain given Creep's reaction, a giant part of the accusation behind your initial case just vanished and you didn't seem to care about it.

230 is abnormal because you enter the discussion about whether TF had a good reason to vote for me, discredit it without explaining why, and then proceed to go on an unrelated point that has nothing to do with what you are discrediting (but sure is tangentially related to your accusation that my Creeps vote was pointless after I stated I would unvote, something to which I replied twice now).

You then fail to tell me why you did so and just ignore that part to continue with 235 and that's why I say you are more interested in new lines of attack as opposed to figuring me out.

[copper223]

Yeah but I was already on that wagon, I started it after the first RVS vote, so that makes 0 sense?

[copper223]

235 was meant to show that whether or not scum lynchbait's reaction to pressure is qualitatively different than town lynchbait's, from my perspective Creeps' reaction could be town and you could have been pressuring him knowing he'd react scummily to jump on it.

Also why would I know all of this, I have no prior history with Creeps.

[copper223]

I also don't see any harm in adding reasons if the reasons are valid.

That begs the question of why you were on it still before you voted me.

But they are not valid, they are crap.

Because I was trying to figure out which one between You, TF and TB was more likely to be the (very likely) scum player that had jumped on my wagon opportunistically.

[copper223]

I didn't imply you did?

Yes you did, how am I supposed to know he will react in a scummy way because he is lynchbait if I don't know the guy.

p-edit: I see you realize you are full of shit as well.

[copper223]

TB is not explaining himself, you are making stuff up, which one looks scummier to you?

The point is I did not know he was lynchbait when I could have pushed him to get a reaction or I was already on his wagon when I said I thought he was, either way what you are saying does not work chronologically.

[copper223]

Don't insult me please. I'm not a vi and don't appreciate you accusing me of being one.

If you happen to be town you definitely are and that is not an insult, it's a statement of what I believe about your level of play, take some of your own medicine.

[copper223]

Your post about Creeps came after you voted him, yes. How does that change anything?

It makes your accusation about me pushing him to get a scummy reaction (while in this world I already had a perfectly fine case on him and was sitting happy on his wagon) bollocks.

It also makes no sense to accuse me at the same time of misusing my vote because I said I would unvote at L-1 (on the player I was trying to mislynch).

All of the above is far fetched enough I believe you are just randomly making stuff up now.

I want to see others post and I want to see lots of Mort votes.

[copper223]

Shit son. You're the freaking idiot who says scum can be lynchbait. Lynchbait means a person who is easily mislynched. SCUM CAN'T BE MISLYNCHED.

If you're town I'm sorry

There is no "mis" in lynchbait you idiot, so no it does not mean that, it means someone that is easily lynched and SCUM CAN BE AN EASY LYNCH AS WELL.

I have been playing this game likely for more years than you have lived, I also have for sure the highest win-rate as scum and third party on this forum (as I have never lost) and I doubt there are many players with a better town win-rate (closing in on 80% now) so I know what I am talking about and you do not.

[copper223]

Sure, that does not make me scum.

You two are just as arrogant (especially if you're town) and at least I can back it up.

[copper223]

thanks for demonstrating how right I am either way.

[copper223]

I'm not sure why he was voting for Creeps though if he was still unsure. Like if there is any doubt, don't vote.

There are many reasons for voting and especially early on most votes are mainly reaction tests with a bit of an inkling to back them up.

I was leaning scum on Creeps (and that's why I kept my vote there), but as I said the margin of error with that kind of player is pretty high so I did not want a quick lynch (especially not one produced by drone or Lohi RVS hammering him while he was at L-1).

[copper223]

Bad but I'm unsure if it comes from scum. He's basically voting you because he feels you are purposely misreading him but I don't see the scum motivation to do something like that.

I definitely do, scum have to make up reads.

[copper223]

The reason why I am voting Mort is I don't believe it's likely he genuinely misread my post where I explained what I thought about Creep's playstyle.

In the follow up discussion we had his only interest was in "winning the argument", this is pretty obvious at the end where he brings up conflicting statements about my behavior that don't even make sense when you put them together:

- I was pushing Creeps to get a scummy reaction to mislynch him (this mind you either when I had no idea who Creeps was so I could not predict his reaction or when I was already on his wagon so I would have had no need to do so).

- At the same time I was fence sitting on Creeps (the player I was supposedly trying to mislynch) by saying I was going to unvote at L-1, and that made my Creeps vote some sort of "show vote" from scum.

Do you see why the same player can't be reasonably expected to be doing both and why Mort postulating both makes it unlikely he is being honest?

[copper223]

@Mort
You brought that up as a reason to discredit my reply at the time, makes little sense to mention it as a random point about a theoretical motive that is not applicable in this specific case.

@Creeps
It really just looks like you are trying to buy an extra day.

[copper223]

@Creeps
Framers are non-normal.

@Uzi
But see, if Scum_Creeps can figure out he should preemptively plant the idea that if he flips guilty on a cop result it's a framer, in case he manages to buy an extra day, then why is he making obvious slips like ignoring his alignment when explaining his views?

I don't buy it, I think he is just paranoid and a desperate newbie town that is trying to find a mechanic to stay alive as opposed to having to defend himself by posting (which never works for him).

[copper223]

I would Claim but that is useless for me as my role really dosen't really scream 'town'

... yeah that was my other reason, when he said he was so nervous he did not want to post he reminded me of Gideon (for HS, Toto and Chaos).

[copper223]

@Uzi
Well I am pretty confident (for a D1 read at least) that this would be a mislynch now so I hope you change your mind, especially because I think you are town as well.

[copper223]

I don't see town motivation to avoid answering questions, especially when those questions are very obviously not meant to entrap.

Many townies play anti-town all the time (especially if they don't know better), often scum is actually less blatantly anti-town.

[copper223]

Sure, I am saying that point is NAI, not that it makes Creeps more likely town.

The reason why I think Creeps is town is the one I gave Uzi and that I just witnessed a similar behavior from a newbie PR in the latest newbie I played with Chaos, HS and Toto.

[copper223]

Okay Mort, you are at the very least pretending to game solve and maybe it was just us butting heads because we are seeing things very differently from our own perspectives.

I don't see much (other than him being less active, but the same goes, much more so, with Toto) from HS that points at him being a different aligment from our recent game where he was town.

I have my theory on the drone comment but I want to hear what he says first.

VOTE: ThinkBig
You are next on the: why did you jump on the copper wagon list, you appear to also be game avoiding. I also want to hear your answer to Mort's questions.

[copper223]

I will remind you that if that is the case (TvT) it all started with you misreading me (about what lynchbait means) together with a more valid point about vote parking (in the sense that I could see that as a genuine accusation from another townie) to which I gave a very good explanation, followed by you making up reasons for why I might be scum on the go (which make very little sense in the context you mention them).

[copper223]

@All
You should all absolutely read those "3 pages of nothingness" and make up your own minds by the way.

[copper223]

The only point I am making there is that I have played the game enough to know what a term means.

I don't know how you come up with LAMIST when the stats for all alignments are mentioned.

Seems like you're trying to prepare the ground for a vote on me if I become a viable wagon while while still fence sitting on Creeps, if that's the case I'm annoyed I got your read wrong before when some players were talking about you overselling on Creeps

[copper223]

@HS
What are your thoughts on Creeps and TB?

[copper223]

Just a notice though, this is a common practice for him.
The only reason he's null to me.

Noted.

@HS
Fair enough.

[copper223]

As long as the conversation doesn't brake down into insulting each other I don't mind colorful language when you address me, but it's of course up to the mod to decide where the boundaries are.

[copper223]

I'll add in the fact that if he is scum, he'll be showing signs over and over again, eventually a slip would hammer him. He's not our top priority at scum hunting.

The first part I definitely agree with, the second part not so much.

If you think Creeps is the likeliest scum candidate he is your top priority, it hard enough to lynch scum (especially on D1) that trying to be selective about which scum you lynch is a pipe dream.

That said I personally don't believe he is scum either.

[copper223]

@TB
My theory on the Drone comment is that HS wanted to get him to post, I believe him when he says he missed the V/LA (since scum_HS and town_HS have basically no incentive to lie about this).

What I thought was the since Drone had replied to Key he was at the very least semi-active on the forum and HS wanted to test how much he was reading along despite saying he was V/LA.

When you're back I'd like a clarification about what you think I twisted about the lynchbait discussion.

[copper223]

You should give that another look. There's no way I could test his V/LA as you seem to imply I was doing in your second line and also miss the V/LA as you believe I do in the first line.

It seems perfectly clear to me but I'll rephrase it.

Before you said you missed the V/LA, when I said I had my theory about your drone comment, that is what I thought you were up to at the time.

Now that you say you missed it (and apart from that your stated intent was pretty similar to what I believe you were doing) I believe you (I also think you'd say so as both town and scum).

So the two statements are not mutually exclusive.

[copper223]

No worries.

[copper223]

You most definitely did imply 2 different things, unfortunately it's hard for me to grasp if you are aware of this fact.

First post: copper said Creeps is lynchbait, lynchbait can't be scum, so copper saying so means he slipped and is scum (and he votes me).

Second post: I understood you copper when you said lynchbait can be scum as well but I disagree with you on the use of the term.

The two don't make sense, because if you believe that's the way I use that term then I did not slip and the first accusation does not make sense, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with me about how the term is used (something Mort tried to pass off as semantics when it really is not).

This is the last time I explain this and it's more for the sake of those asking while not wanting to wade through the whole argument.

@All
If you have doubts about how I use the term lynchbait, then check my previous games, that is always how I've interpreted the term (and nobody has disagreed with me before that comes to mind).

[copper223]

That is not the point I have been making again and again (sigh) and where the contradiction lies.

You can't accuse me of being scum for calling Creeps lynchbait if you think that for me being lynchbait and being scum are not mutually exclusive.

If you truly believe that the sky is orange, I can't call you a liar for saying so, I can just say you are wrong.

Yet you both say that you believe me (although I am wrong) and that I am scum for calling Creeps lynchbait and likely scum at the same time, which is a freaking contradiction.

That's why I said you're either scum or you don't get the difference between what is bad (according to you) and what is scummy.

[copper223]

Copper also misread and misrepped one of my arguments and refused to accept my explanation of what I meant.

Where did I do this?

The latest explanation you gave makes more sense to me, it would explain why I was getting pissed at you, can you see why from my perspective it looked like you were just interested in finding new ways to scumread me (presumably in your excitement about having found a new lead)?

I'm still a bit bothered about your TF deflection but if you were still trying to get me for being scum I can see you running to defend someone else that seemed on the right track as well.

[copper223]

Meh I don't know, Mort could be throwing TF under the buss now that there is more of a wagon on him, if at any point either flips scum the other is a very likely candidate (please remember this).

There are other possible scenarios, I might comment on this further along the day if I think it becomes relevant.

[copper223]

I've been trying to follow the lynchbait discussion and to be honest I'm not making too much sense of it. It seems like a small thing that somehow got into a big discussion, and some people are trying to make scum reads based on it which makes me think there is one scum in there {2face, copper, mort}

Okay, I'll give you an example that should explain why I found it very relevant.

You, Toto, believe that the sky is blue.

I, copper, believe that the sky is orange.

I then say: Toto said the sky is blue, but the sky is orange, so Toto is lying.

I follow that up with: I know that Toto believes the sky is blue.

If I say both of those things, then the one that is lying is me and not you, do you follow? Now apply that to the lynchbait discussion.

[copper223]

@Mort
If both you and TF are town then both TB and Misa are very good scum candidates, it also means Chaos and Creeps are likely town.

[copper223]

@Mort

Spoiler: Misa

The LAMIST comment she made is especially bad if this is a TvTT because at the time she made it the thread was dominated by LUV (partially), TF and you questioning me, so my wagon looked like the better one to hop onto and her scum motive in that scenario is pretty clear, her position also doesn't look genuine because the LAMIST accusation was pretty weird in of itself and because most of the players that have since commented have either stayed neutral or picked my side of the argument.

If one of you 2 were her buddy I would expect her to ignore us in a scenario where it looked like you were already doing fine without her help, there is little incentive to post there and most new scum players would be afraid of associations with one of you later on along the road. If you are both town though she can turn around and blame you in case I get lynched.

Spoiler: TB

TB goes back to what I said about the likely-hood of one of you guys being the opportunistic scum to jump on my wagon. A number of players have raised good points on him as well including yourself.

Spoiler: Chaos

From the newbie I played with him where he was scum and from reading his games Chaos is not a hard busser, but he wanted Misa lynched pretty badly when he was active, it's likely that if she is scum he is not.

Spoiler: Creeps

The way Misa kept her read open on Creeps when she made that LAMIST comment, if that was a: "these are the wagons I am preparing to jump on" kind of post, pretty much implies Creeps would be the other patsy she is willing to mislynch here together with me.

TL;DR: You and TF being town makes Misa more likely to be scum, the rest of the reads cascade, other than TB which is a separate issue.

[copper223]

I think TC wouldn't be too happy with the comparison.

TC is a logical player that follows his win-con, I don't think Creeps can be analyzed the same way...

[copper223]

@Toto
As I think drone said if Creeps is just playing the WIFOM game he is going to slip up sooner or later and if he is town there's a decent chance scum is going to target him tonight for his soft PR claim.

[copper223]

Either way he is not reaching Lylo in this game so the only case where we really are worse off focusing on someone else is if the only thing he has been doing today after his wagon gained momentum is trying to stay alive at least until tonight because his role helps scum a ton, but since this is a normal and we can't be dealing with absurdly powerful roles I'm prepared to take that risk.

[copper223]

Since Naomi gave her read snapshots here's where I am at:

LUV: green, we seem to have different reads but it's mainly due to interpreting the same behaviors differently, if this were to continue into D2/D3 then it should be reviewed.

HS: green, slight concern / paranoia that his reads are so similar to mine and he could be sheeping but we worked well together in our recent newbie and I think that is what is causing us to be in synch.

Naomi: green, trying to make the town work together and sharing what she thinks about everyone voluntarily are both good signs.

Creeps: green/yellow, as I said I'm interpreting this as newbie town that doesn't know what they are doing, could easily be wrong on this though and that would change my outlook (if Creeps is red then Naomi and drone need to be re-examined).

drone: green/yellow, I've been agreeing with quite a few of his posts, like his take on Creeps, and I don't see a scum agenda behind his posting, I am curious to read why HS is wary about him.

Toto: yellow/green, I haven't seen enough from Toto but that post where he said he was town-reading the players he played with and suspecting the new ones and he found that weird makes me think he is town.

Chaos: yellow/green, this is based on my Misa scum-read and my assumption that Chaos would not bus a newbie immediately after RVS

Loli: yellow, prob. replaced soon.

Mort: yellow, currently I'm going with the TvTT explanation for our discussion and now that Mort's confidence has been shaken he is running around more or less like a headless chicken: changing votes from TB to Misa just based on the slightest pressure from LUV about wagoning a V/LA, being paranoid of everyone questioning him thinking it's mafia jumping on him, keeping on saying he is sorry for having been anti-town when he really didn't do that much wrong in that case (conf-bias is real). There are however also obvious scum motives to explain all these behaviors (I still am not certain that I can rule out him just screwing up the push on me with his buddy TF and now going in full damage control mode, but in this case we are already in a good position anyway so w/e.).

TF: yellow, Either scum pretending to be a VI or a VI, probably going to black-list this guy after the game if he is town. I noticed some of you saying this is his town meta and I'm taking that into account.

Misa: red, based on my Creeps read I am on-board with those saying she was overselling her outrage, I also really did not like the LAMIST post and the timing of when she made it, she also reacted weirdly to me defending her in the earlier stages of the game.

TB: red, inconsistent reads, bad hop on my wagon, possibly Misa slipped when just focusing on me voting an inactive and quickly moving back to Naomi when she was told that TB did the same thing (if one is red the other becomes that much more fishy). Still, like what Naomi said, interested in what he has to say after the V/LA ends, a major reassessment here would shake up my reads considerably.

I realize there are very likely at least 3 red / non green players so at least 1 read here is inaccurate but I'm not going to force it for the sake of it when there are still so many variables in my reads.

[copper223]

Nah, the bad part is when he says he has done nothing wrong to be black-listed (cause once again he fails to consider the perspective of others, it's not for him to decide with whom I want to play and what those criteria are), black-listing back is totally fair.

[copper223]

1. Don't be an asshole to people.

Not going to take a chill pill when rules are being broken.

There are no rules being broken, VI is a comment about what I believe about your play (and since you told me I am an idiot that should not faze you), not your character.

Probably your insecurity coming through here, typical of people pretending to be right all the time.

Game related, he does seem genuine here, then again I thought Jason was as well so if I made the same mistake twice in a row that's kind of embarrassing.

[copper223]

@Copper It's worth noting that Lohik has only signed up for this game and one other theme game in which his inactivity has also ceased. (I hope this doesn't break the rule about speaking about other games.)
This means your statistic about newbies flaking out of scum roles applies.

Some mods are more strict than others on this, PM them if you're unsure cause some can get pretty mad about it.

In general if you only talk about activity levels without saying anything about content or specific games it's ok.

That's good to know, let's see if she starts posting here as well.

[copper223]

Key wants to be a good mod but I can't agree with the kind of rules he is trying to enforce (if you feel insulted by something, then that something is by definition an insult), so I am replacing out.

Good luck to everyone (excluding TF).

Cheers.