Mini Normal 1848 — Game Over!
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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Nope, none of the above belongs to my line of thinking, also if that were the case HS would have had to talk to Key and ask him about his role and he would have been indirectly confirmed.Naomi-Tan wrote:
Hmm.. So.. what your saying is your reading that she may have a power role she doesn't understand and had to ask about it and its why she didn't confirm.. why would you talk about that meta as a green? like doesn't it just benefit reds?In post 14, copper223 wrote:Good observation Misa, it is true though that TB also did the same thing, how come you noticed my case in particular?
Having just finished a game with HumanSequencer where he was very active very often his lack of confirmation seemed like a good place to start investigating.
I thought the possibility that HS had received a scum PM and did not want to play that role was a place to start, I also had other reasons.
@Chaos
Is that an RVS vote?-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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It's possible but my current assessment is that she is a new townie, I'm interested in her next posts.In post 30, ChaosOmega wrote:No. I'm ok with his post 9, but I don't like his response to Uzi's 11. It seems weird that his response to a second player doing something he finds suspicious is to not push either of them on it and go back to his RVS vote. Reads like he's trying to look like he's scumhunting, but bows under any pressure to avoid conflict.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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VOTE: Creeps
Do you have a guilty conscience Creeps?-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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@Creeps
Normally games on mafiascum start with a random voting stage (check the wiki if you want more info), that's likely why TwoFace came up with your name, despite there being no posts from you.
One possible reason for your reaction, assuming you didn't know about the random voting stage (RVS) convention, is that you are scum and surprised there is already a vote on you, is that it?-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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I already thought this was the case, it also explains why she noticed my vote on the inactive HS before she noticed TB's vote on the inactive drone.In post 62, MisaTange wrote:I actually voted Naomi instead of Chaos literally just because I remember her one of the few people who has a 2+ year old account, I forgot what the other one is
Her backing up when she was told about drone and going back to Naomi is more a sign that she is new and not super confident of how to scum-hunt, so if she's told that line of inquiry is bad by multiple people she'll likely change her mind and go back to where she was before.
I see the above more likely as "bowing to pressure", it doesn't make much sense to pick fights with experienced players by default and be trying to avoid looking for trouble at the same time.
Misa, what's the game you're referencing where you played with Creeps? Creeps is weird, not sure yet if it's weird scum.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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@Naomi
I can see why you'd read both as green (I don't mind using this terminology if most of you prefer it, I don't find the usual ones like scum offensive though, it's just the role you were given in the game, not a value judgement of you as a person) but for me it's too early to make an informed decision.
Let's not forget the inactives.
@HS
What didn't you like in TF''s latest posts? I thought his interaction with Mort was fine (for now at least).-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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@TF
I haven't changed my mind from the last time I gave that read, I think her checking the experienced players first and noticing I had voted an inactive was an early attempt to game solve and that points at her being town.
I don't find that to match well with Chaos's point that her going back to Naomi was her bowing to and wanting to avoid pressure.
I did note the point Naomi made (which you also brought up in another way together with Uzi) that she could be scum over-pushing Creeps and that she was over-selling her outrage there but not having played with her and not knowing how volatile she usually is I put more weight in my early read.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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The highlighted is false, lynchbait is a player that comes off as scum due to play stileIn post 198, MortFeld wrote:Sure, I'll explain this. Copper made a statement that essentially said: I am voting someone I think is lynchbait(therefore town)and I will unvote them if they get to L-1. So he's not voting a SR and he's not voting for pressure. It's a parked pointless vote - by his own reasoning - and I think that behavior is more likely to come from scum than town.alwaysregardless of alignment.
I explain that here:
That also explains why I am not thrilled with quickly hammering a player like Creeps, the chances of misreading him, due to his lynchbaity playstile, are much higher than usual and scum can safely join these kind of wagons without being much questioned about it.In post 108, copper223 wrote:I'm also a bit uncomfortable with having lynchbaity Creeps (not that lynchbait can't be scumbut it's easy to mistake them for it when they are not and I believe him when he says that's how he comes off as town as well)
On the other hand I am also not sure he actually isn't scum (although his latest posting where he said he was afraid to post in fear of getting lynched makes me lean towards town) so what my vote accomplished was keeping the pressure one him.
At least 1 of you that jumped on this is most likely scum.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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That doesn't happen often with lynchbait because they either play like this on purpose to WIFOM or they are new to the game so that's the only way they know how to play (other than lurk out of games I guess), which I think is the case here.
Lynchbait means you bait lynches on yourself (because of the way you play), that says nothing about your alignment (so if you were using it that way you misunderstand the term).
Regardless of what you believe, it's pretty obvious I do not use that term in the way Mort suggested (since I literally specified that lynchbait can be scum in the post he misunderstood or misrepped).-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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In post 222, TwoFace wrote:Right I saw you said it can be scum, but I disagreed with you and felt it was a scummy post.saying you will unvote when he gets to l-1 is bad play imo. It takes pressure off someone people are scum reading and also makes you seem like you weren't really committed to it. If that's the case why are you on it to begin with?
You are flip flopping, your main accusation when you voted me was that lynchbait can't be scum andIn post 202, TwoFace wrote:Oh yeah that's bad.The over explanation about scum being can be lynch baity makes it bad. Scum can't be lynch bait
This needs a flip. Should I vote?
Heads
VOTE: copperthatis what makes my post bad.
Now you are saying that you understood me when I said lynchbait can be scum, but you disagree (there is nothing to agree or disagree on, I am stating a fact about what a term means), so in your mind us disagreeing on how to use a term makes you want to flip me?
As I explained once already I wanted to keep the pressure on (and that worked fine given Creeps later posted he was so scared of getting lynched he was afraid to comment) but also warn the rest of town that Creeps was already at L-2 and that I did not consider it appropriate to lynch him at that time (because of the considerations I already made), something that was very relevant since soon after ThinkBig declined to vote Creeps to avoid putting him at L-1.
If you believe the town is supposed to town-read you for "admitting" you have no reads (which is by no means a given), that makes your statement about having no reads NAI at best by the way.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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What part of:
Lynchbait can't be scum, so copper saying so means he is likely scum and I am going to vote him.
AND
copper says Creeps is lynchbait (which is a playstyle comment and he can be either scum or town) but I disagree on how he is using that term.
looks in any wayliterallythe same to you?-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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I did not misread anything.
If you believe I genuinely use the term the way I define it (which is the correct way), your reason for voting me which I bolded is pure bullshit.
The only way that vote accusation makes sense is if you a) don't understand what the term means and b) think I suffer from the same misunderstanding that lynchbait can only be town so me using it in that context is a slip that I know Creep's alignment.
You later admitting that you understood me the first time makes assumption b) false by definition.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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That is about the reason TF stated for voting me and whether it can be considered genuine or not given his stated beliefs, why are you calling it semantics and going on an unrelated tangent?In post 230, MortFeld wrote:What a dumb semantic argument. No matter what you meant by lynchbait, what good does it do to pressure lynchbait? They'll just do more scummy things. I don't see anyone defending Creeps...
There is a qualitative difference between the kind of scummy things you see from town and scum, because scum has hidden knowledge and the more they are nervous and the more content you make them produce the more it's likely part of that knowledge is going to seep into their posting, pretty much regardless of their play-style.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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I am not here to convince you, I am here to find scum and the players that jumped on this nonsense while constantly shifting the reasons for why I might be doing something as scum to fit their narrative are prime suspects.In post 235, MortFeld wrote:By the same token, it's easy for scum to pressure weak players and jump on their responses as scummy. I'm not convinced.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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VOTE: Mort
It's a toss-up but I believe it's more likely for TF to be a VI that doesn't get the difference between bad (in his mind) and scum, as opposed to Mort misreading what to me looks like a pretty obvious statement about lynchbaits, they could also both be scum but that seems less likely.
Also instead of re-examining your read after stating you had misunderstood Mort, you try to find new avenues of attack and that smacks of scum sticking to their read.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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@Mort
Regardless of your belief that my vote did not serve much of a purpose, although that is pretty hard to maintain given Creep's reaction, a giant part of the accusation behind your initial case just vanished and you didn't seem to care about it.
230 is abnormal because you enter the discussion about whether TF had a good reason to vote for me, discredit it without explaining why, and then proceed to go on an unrelated point that has nothing to do with what you are discrediting (but sure is tangentially related to your accusation that my Creeps vote was pointless after I stated I would unvote, something to which I replied twice now).
You then fail to tell me why you did so and just ignore that part to continue with 235 and that's why I say you are more interested in new lines of attack as opposed to figuring me out.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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Also why would I know all of this, I have no prior history with Creeps.In post 248, MortFeld wrote:235 was meant to show that whether or not scum lynchbait's reaction to pressure is qualitatively different than town lynchbait's, from my perspective Creeps' reaction could be town and you could have been pressuring him knowing he'd react scummily to jump on it.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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But they are not valid, they are crap.In post 251, MortFeld wrote:I also don't see any harm in adding reasons if the reasons are valid.
That begs the question of why you were on it still before you voted me.
Because I was trying to figure out which one between You, TF and TB was more likely to be the (very likely) scum player that had jumped on my wagon opportunistically.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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Yes you did, how am I supposed to know he will react in a scummy way because he is lynchbait if I don't know the guy.In post 253, MortFeld wrote:I didn't imply you did?
p-edit: I see you realize you are full of shit as well.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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TB is not explaining himself, you are making stuff up, which one looks scummier to you?
The point is I did not know he was lynchbait when I could have pushed him to get a reaction or I was already on his wagon when I said I thought he was, either way what you are saying does not work chronologically.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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If you happen to be town you definitely are and that is not an insult, it's a statement of what I believe about your level of play, take some of your own medicine.In post 259, TwoFace wrote:Don't insult me please. I'm not a vi and don't appreciate you accusing me of being one.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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It makes your accusation about me pushing him to get a scummy reaction (while in this world I already had a perfectly fine case on him and was sitting happy on his wagon) bollocks.In post 261, MortFeld wrote:Your post about Creeps came after you voted him, yes. How does that change anything?
It also makes no sense to accuse me at the same time of misusing my vote because I said I would unvote at L-1 (on the player I was trying to mislynch).
All of the above is far fetched enough I believe you are just randomly making stuff up now.
I want to see others post and I want to see lots of Mort votes.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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There is no "mis" in lynchbait you idiot, so no it does not mean that, it means someone that is easily lynched and SCUM CAN BE AN EASY LYNCH AS WELL.In post 265, TwoFace wrote:Shit son. You're the freaking idiot who says scum can be lynchbait. Lynchbait means a person who is easily mislynched. SCUM CAN'T BE MISLYNCHED.
If you're town I'm sorry
I have been playing this game likely for more years than you have lived, I also have for sure the highest win-rate as scum and third party on this forum (as I have never lost) and I doubt there are many players with a better town win-rate (closing in on 80% now) so I know what I am talking about and you do not.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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There are many reasons for voting and especially early on most votes are mainly reaction tests with a bit of an inkling to back them up.In post 280, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I'm not sure why he was voting for Creeps though if he was still unsure. Like if there is any doubt, don't vote.
I was leaning scum on Creeps (and that's why I kept my vote there), but as I said the margin of error with that kind of player is pretty high so I did not want a quick lynch (especially not one produced by drone or Lohi RVS hammering him while he was at L-1).-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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I definitely do, scum have to make up reads.In post 285, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Bad but I'm unsure if it comes from scum. He's basically voting you because he feels you are purposely misreading him but I don't see the scum motivation to do something like that.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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The reason why I am voting Mort is I don't believe it's likely he genuinely misread my post where I explained what I thought about Creep's playstyle.
In the follow up discussion we had his only interest was in "winning the argument", this is pretty obvious at the end where he brings up conflicting statements about my behavior that don't even make sense when you put them together:
- I was pushing Creeps to get a scummy reaction to mislynch him (this mind you either when I had no idea who Creeps was so I could not predict his reaction or when I was already on his wagon so I would have had no need to do so).
- At the same time I was fence sitting on Creeps (the player I was supposedly trying to mislynch) by saying I was going to unvote at L-1, and that made my Creeps vote some sort of "show vote" from scum.
Do you see why the same player can't be reasonably expected to be doing both and why Mort postulating both makes it unlikely he is being honest?-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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@Creeps
Framers are non-normal.
@Uzi
But see, if Scum_Creeps can figure out he should preemptively plant the idea that if he flips guilty on a cop result it's a framer, in case he manages to buy an extra day, then why is he making obvious slips like ignoring his alignment when explaining his views?
I don't buy it, I think he is just paranoid and a desperate newbie town that is trying to find a mechanic to stay alive as opposed to having to defend himself by posting (which never works for him).-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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... yeah that was my other reason, when he said he was so nervous he did not want to post he reminded me of Gideon (for HS, Toto and Chaos).In post 306, Creeps20 wrote:I would Claim but that is useless for me as my role really dosen't really scream 'town'-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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Many townies play anti-town all the time (especially if they don't know better), often scum is actually less blatantly anti-town.In post 314, MortFeld wrote:I don't see town motivation to avoid answering questions, especially when those questions are very obviously not meant to entrap.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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Okay Mort, you are at the very least pretending to game solve and maybe it was just us butting heads because we are seeing things very differently from our own perspectives.
I don't see much (other than him being less active, but the same goes, much more so, with Toto) from HS that points at him being a different aligment from our recent game where he was town.
I have my theory on the drone comment but I want to hear what he says first.
VOTE: ThinkBig
You are next on the: why did you jump on the copper wagon list, you appear to also be game avoiding. I also want to hear your answer to Mort's questions.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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I will remind you that if that is the case (TvT) it all started with you misreading me (about what lynchbait means) together with a more valid point about vote parking (in the sense that I could see that as a genuine accusation from another townie) to which I gave a very good explanation, followed by you making up reasons for why I might be scum on the go (which make very little sense in the context you mention them).-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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The only point I am making there is that I have played the game enough to know what a term means.
I don't know how you come up with LAMIST when the stats for all alignments are mentioned.
Seems like you're trying to prepare the ground for a vote on me if I become a viable wagon while while still fence sitting on Creeps, if that's the case I'm annoyed I got your read wrong before when some players were talking about you overselling on Creeps-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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Noted.In post 338, Drone wrote:Just a notice though, this is a common practice for him.
The only reason he's null to me.
@HS
Fair enough.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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The first part I definitely agree with, the second part not so much.In post 351, Drone wrote:I'll add in the fact that if he is scum, he'll be showing signs over and over again, eventually a slip would hammer him. He's not our top priority at scum hunting.
If you think Creeps is the likeliest scum candidate he is your top priority, it hard enough to lynch scum (especially on D1) that trying to be selective about which scum you lynch is a pipe dream.
That said I personally don't believe he is scum either.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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@TB
My theory on the Drone comment is that HS wanted to get him to post, I believe him when he says he missed the V/LA (since scum_HS and town_HS have basically no incentive to lie about this).
What I thought was the since Drone had replied to Key he was at the very least semi-active on the forum and HS wanted to test how much he was reading along despite saying he was V/LA.
When you're back I'd like a clarification about what you think I twisted about the lynchbait discussion.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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It seems perfectly clear to me but I'll rephrase it.In post 375, Human Sequencer wrote:You should give that another look. There's no way I could test his V/LA as you seem to imply I was doing in your second line and also miss the V/LA as you believe I do in the first line.
Before you said you missed the V/LA, when I said I had my theory about your drone comment, that is what I thought you were up to at the time.
Now that you say you missed it (and apart from that your stated intent was pretty similar to what I believe you were doing) I believe you (I also think you'd say so as both town and scum).
So the two statements are not mutually exclusive.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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You most definitely did imply 2 different things, unfortunately it's hard for me to grasp if you are aware of this fact.
First post: copper said Creeps is lynchbait, lynchbait can't be scum, so copper saying so means he slipped and is scum (and he votes me).
Second post: I understood you copper when you said lynchbait can be scum as well but I disagree with you on the use of the term.
The two don't make sense, because if you believe that's the way I use that term then I did not slip and the first accusation does not make sense, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with me about how the term is used (something Mort tried to pass off as semantics when it really is not).
This is the last time I explain this and it's more for the sake of those asking while not wanting to wade through the whole argument.
@All
If you have doubts about how I use the term lynchbait, then check my previous games, that is always how I've interpreted the term (and nobody has disagreed with me before that comes to mind).-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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That is not the point I have been making again and again (sigh) and where the contradiction lies.
You can't accuse me of being scum for calling Creeps lynchbait if you think that for me being lynchbait and being scum are not mutually exclusive.
If you truly believe that the sky is orange, I can't call you a liar for saying so, I can just say you are wrong.
Yet you both say that you believe me (although I am wrong) and that I am scum for calling Creeps lynchbait and likely scum at the same time, which is a freaking contradiction.
That's why I said you're either scum or you don't get the difference between what is bad (according to you) and what is scummy.-
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copper223 Jack of All Trades
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Where did I do this?In post 391, MortFeld wrote:Copper also misread and misrepped one of my arguments and refused to accept my explanation of what I meant.
The latest explanation you gave makes more sense to me, it would explain why I was getting pissed at you, can you see why from my perspective it looked like you were just interested in finding new ways to scumread me (presumably in your excitement about having found a new lead)?
I'm still a bit bothered about your TF deflection but if you were still trying to get me for being scum I can see you running to defend someone else that seemed on the right track as well.-
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- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5449
- Joined: September 21, 2014
Meh I don't know, Mort could be throwing TF under the buss now that there is more of a wagon on him, if at any point either flips scum the other is a very likely candidate (please remember this).
There are other possible scenarios, I might comment on this further along the day if I think it becomes relevant.