Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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I actually like what GM said about BBT unless it's a super catered pocketing attempt. Also him saying the game was annoying I think mirrors how I felt about people arguing over the dice, although that's an assumption.
I'm wondering what the likelihood is micheal would issue that PSA #1 as scum, I think very low. The only issue is the chance he thought of it from pre-game and planned to say it regardless of role pm, instead of just now (makes sense given the circumstances).
No scumleads yet though.-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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I liked it because it's what I thought, I had a lot of trouble with BBT our last 2 games. One game it took me 4 days to make my mind up on him, but he mislynched me, next game I mislynched him day 1 and got nightkiilled. The caveat is because it's an assumption I would have to later check it again, but it was okay for early.
Ironically, now that I said that and people actually voted me for it, 47 rubs me the opposite way. People won't like me saying this, but fuck it.
As for the qualifiers point, this is lame but I do think like that. People hate wishywashyness so much though, sometimes I bury the doubts down and just present a simplified viewpoint to make things easier for people. But then again I've been getting nightkilled early in recent games so this might be for the best.-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Of those on my wagon.
Blackvoid vote has understandable reasoning and I like him thinking that way. BBT's makes sense because he'd probably want to sort me based of our experience, but there are caveats. twoface/sotty is blank/neutral, I assume the "justification" is to get an early wagon going but I can't read into alignment on that so much.
I don't like hoopla vote justified on association; If you scumread someone enough this early to look at associations, I think you'd keep pushing them instead. 57 is a little ridiculous.
In my own experience I love to push association tells as scum (because it's easy and low-commitment) and people rarely call you out for pushing things on it.
I also enjoy
a) linking a scumpartner with a townie in associations, best case scenario townie lynch makes the scumpartner look better, worst case scum gets lynched and get the townie in return
b) super scumread a scum for strong reasons but end up pushing/voting town for weak reasons
but in this case, although the switch by hoopla from gm to me is weird I don't think that was distancing. I would imagine goodmorning would have fought hoopla back a bit more if that was the goal, instead of voting victor. Same with goodmorning's comment on being annoyed earlier.
Mostly though, the post saying she feels her scumread is about to crack under pressure but she changes vote is absurd to me. You pressure someone and then right when you feel you're almost there, you switch to something like an weak association as town. I think the frustration in 62 is over the top considering she didn't really put that much effort into changing people's minds. Again, anecdotal, but as scum I love to complain about "oh no I have to do this because everyone else" and not take responsibility or effort into fighting against it and changing people's minds (for obvious reasons)... she didn't really push gm with much effort before complaining like this, if you look at the iso.
VOTE: Hoopla-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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That was directed at those who are probably lazy like BBT or sotty if town, because the formulaic thing I've seen done with fastwagons is you look at the reaction and judge on that including if omgus or not.-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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I wonder what's your main account now.In post 74, TwoFace wrote:
eh, this comment was unnecessary cause omgus as a valid tell died years agoIn post 72, Raskolnikov wrote:And yeah, omgus. Bite me.
p,edit - you're right, i didn't-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Well it would help with meta but the assumption is you made an alt exactly to prevent that.
But the fun is, if I have played with you, in somehow figuring it out because it's a mystery just like scumhunting. But this is getting offtopic.-
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Okay, if you're town stop talking like this then.In post 82, Hoopla wrote:
I feel like it's fairly obvious from context that I am just teasing goodmorning (she seems like a good kid imo and I might invite her to start a town bloc if/when she proves her innocence to me) -- but really, who could resist such a juicy wagoning opportunity this early in the game?In post 70, Raskolnikov wrote:Mostly though, the post saying she feels her scumread is about to crack under pressure but she changes vote is absurd to me.
It's vague as to when you're "serious" or not which makes any given action low-commitment. If an opinion is convenient to hold on to, you can later say it was serious. If inconvenient, you can say it wasn't.
But in this case that feels like a stretch. You voted on dice and then said you voted not for it which implied it was at least somewhat serious, as well as what you said about switching. It's almost goes too far really.
Whatever align this has to end. Anyone can realise the issue here; if someone is disingenuous and saying things they don't mean as town, you are not any different from scum being disingenuous and saying things they don't mean. This behaviour from town makes scumhunting difficult so it shouldn't be allowed on principle past RVS (is this still rvs?) unless it's very obvious to be joking, which evidently it was not. And it gives scum an out when people do find a slip up.
It also just annoys me, but that's because I am a uptight bastard who gets bothered seeing people all cheerful-like and having fun... But that's not relevant here.
*ahem*
I want a serious read from you on me as leading wagon, goodmorning (good kid? is that a read or personality?), and whatever else you can offer. Underneath your attitude, I am vaguely familiar with your experience and particularly game knowledge from the setup theory threads, and even if this particular thing hadn't happened, I would want something from you anyways at this point to judge.-
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Have a bit of an issue with this. He does have a point on you although you deflect it to him. The deflection doesn't make sense either, he did out reads from his first post even, and his iso is full of analysis.In post 69, TwoFace wrote:
can you please link me to where you have outed reads, I have trouble locating them when looking over your iso.In post 66, CloudKicker wrote:Havent outed a single read
Now I don't think this is necessarily terrible as it could just be antisocial/lazy, but I do think you should give an opinion or stance at this point now like what he said.-
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...how would you fail to pull it off?In post 84, Hoopla wrote:
I came out all guns blazing yet with no expectations about reactions at all. I know it sounds crazy, but I think I managed to pull it off.In post 77, MichelSableheart wrote:Hoopla, don't you think that your bubblyness, as Rask calls it, should have drawn more reactions then it did? Are there players in his game who you expected would comment on it, but didn't?-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Am I in the twilight zone?
You seem to be taking credit for this wagon which I don't get. Not only that, but justifying your playstyle with it (??).Hoopla wrote:You may not like it, but it's already netted us an L-2 wagon so I must be doing something right.
Even if you assume any early wagon is good as it starts the game, I'm pretty sure your style was not the cause of this at all and that doesn't somehow negate or address my actual, explicitly voiced problems with it.
Me: I have a problem with your play for X Y and Z reasons
Answer: [doesn't respond to points] it got us this l-2 wagon so it must be good!
Will anyone see my problem with this?
If you actually think like this, UGH.
Okay, we're starting to get into sensible territory.Hoopla wrote:I thought BlackVoid's post illuminating your overly qualifier-y post was good and I like to reward good posts with wagon support.
Do you know what though? I townread black for that post as well. I don't think he is scum who faked that perspective.
The question isn't if you think it's a good post or not, it's if you agree with what's said as something alignment indicative.
If you're town and think playing the game "rewarding" good posts with votes without having your own opinion is a good approach, I don't know what to say. For starting an rvs wagon, okay. It's still earlygame for now.
But if you play like this midgame or later (well you see your honor, I lynched him yesterday to reward a good post) it might be actually be for the best if I'm out of this early.-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Lol. I don't have enough content to read BBT as of yet here, so your conclusion could actually be right, but for all the wrong reasons.In post 119, Sotty7 wrote:I like BBT more for scum at this point. He came in with a vote on Rask to start a wagon, there were already two other players with two votes at the time Blackvoid and gm. It seems to be an attempt to sort Rask which comes quick and with no further elaboration. I would have expected more considering the history they both speak to. Feels like he started the wagon then panicked a little when it took off. I also remember BBTScum being very no nonsense cutting to the heart of the matter, were as townBBT being more open.
Unvote, Vote: BBT
Rask - What do you think of BBT now? Is my meta outdated?
I'm pretty sure he isn't incompetent as to join a clearly growing wagon and not expect it to continue growing, or to "panic" from the l-2 and have that justify his next actions... I think your meta is really bad here.
From what I remember from my research BBT has no fear hardpushing mislynches, him at the forefront, no fucks given*. So to imagine him as an innocent scum babe not knowing what he was getting into and then overreacting/panicking from something like this doesn't fit at all.
If BBT is scum who actually wanted to lynch me, he wouldn't join the early wagon like this for the reason of "wanting to get a wagon going", but instead have built up a serious case and powerpushed it. Probably near mid-end of day as well for more likely results. He knows how to push, with or without case, so he wouldn't half-ass something he wants to get done; saying you vote for the sake of getting a wagon going early would inherently undermine that goal.
If he's scum his intentions would have been different than that and more sophisticated. The better theory is; he, as scum saw an opportunity there to join that early wagon, expect pressure and me to towntell and then the chance to be one of the first to call me town and then try to work with me, and get me onside against the others who have voted me. He would know I'd fight strongly against the lynch and give the opportunity that a turn like that would be plausible. In other words, the complete opposite intention as what you proposed. He knows from experience I'd have a hard time trusting him so this would be a chance for him to try to have a rapport/buddying with me through this; that would be the actual incentive.
Which realistically is a still a conspiracy theory... I could easily see this play from his as town too, and I can't judge as of yet. His default playstyle is very low information especially earlygame and there's a "it's just day 1 I'm not overthinking things yet" element I remember seeing from town-him. With this wagon though and pressure, I do look forward to seeing more in-depth reasoning and information though. It would be easier to judge the turn if it was explained why he townread me and changed his mind. In any case I'll need some more time on this.
This aside, I haven't read up fully yet, but I myself hope to find something I do think is probably scum to vote as opposed to "well I don't know he ISN'T scum" paranoia.
*possibly not that different from his t game OOOH BURN *sizzle*-
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In post 122, MariaR wrote:I'm having mixed feelings cause the first part of Scotty's post felt like BS but I agree with the BBT read started the bw and when rask towntold knew it wasn't gonna get far and got off rather quick
Of course could just be town who saw the towntell and got off but saying it's a scumread makes me seem smart so!In post 148, MariaR wrote: I tr rask not because a wagon happened but because the few posts made they seem like the town meta that I've played with Rask before. I don't know about the others
So I'm a little confused here. If I'm following correctly, you townread from specific meta but wonder (and initially assumed) BBT may or may not have read for the same reasons. But I'd assume if you townread someone from specific meta you have with them, no one came to that read the same way as you, or even could have. You seem to partially realise this in the last quote but it's still a bit huh. In no universe would I think someone is reading someone the same way I am if I'm using super specific meta (which like, secret tells I've never shared).In post 178, MariaR wrote:Re reading the BBT scum train I take back the sr
I think him getting the wagon going was just wanting to get a wagon going and when Rask became obv town to me he unvoted so if I sr him for that I'd find myself scummy also LMFAO
This semi depends on why he tr rask because we prob have dif reasons but lets see-
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I know you've since moved, but could you go into why this was. A few sentences/brief summary is fine.In post 162, VictorDeAngelo wrote:UNVOTE:
I'm with BlackVoid. BBT a good vote.
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
I also think MariaR could be a good vote as well.-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Mmm this is annoying. I have a bunch of townreads and the rest are people who are good enough that I can't tell, but don't feel a big substantial satisfying scumlead.
Twoface being like antisocial and giving a "fuck you" vibe doesn't get any points but it's hard to judge it from style from an alt without meta available. Him not voting anyone despite seeming to have problems with people is kind of weird to me. Would think he'd vote victor or maybe cloud at this point given the things he said.
Don't know wtf maria is doing in terms of vote either (???). Hope this isn't gonna be hoopla again and I'm just annoyed at people for joking or something though.-
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Victors pushing things though? Saying he did less than BBT in this game is kind of a stretch.In post 224, goodmorning wrote:Because Victor's being much worse. Toffee is at least trying to dosomething.
The part I do agree with is I want him to explain his reads.-
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Well. I think initially the coin gimmick, the "I don't care what people think about me" attitude, and then when people ask you things you turn it back on them is what gives me that impression. That's the less important part of what I said though, it's that you seem to have issue with victor and cloud but vote neither.In post 226, TwoFace wrote:how am I being anti-social? I am having conversations with people which is the exact opposite of that. I also don't think I have given off an FU vibe to anyone other than maybe cloud and that's because he said he can't read me. I don't care if people can read me or not, but people can at least make an effort to. Cloud hasn't been asking me any questions or trying to get my opinions on things. He criticized me for not giving any reads but never bothered to ask if I even have any or not.
I mean from this answer and last post I think you're saying you actually just want to try understand them and get on the same page, which would justify not yet voting, although if so, you're approach towards that is kind of horrendous and has the opposite effect.-
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Well that and what the fuck was that micheal vote.In post 227, MariaR wrote:Are you wondering who I'd be willing to vote Rask? Hm good question!
Well I only have 2 people in mind so far but I want more content from these 2 lovely people for now keep doing what you're doing everyone it's impressing me~
Which 2 people?-
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Twoface and goodmorning?
God why do you people love being intentionally vague.
Do you like miscommunication? Do people actually enjoy when things like the "Innocent" thing happen and apparently hoopla?
Is there something fun about having little mini word games every step of the way?-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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@TF It's not that it's specifically bad for you (I would assume you'd do this every game anyways with the flavour), but if you're having a hard time judging people you're going to fucking doubt the person flipping a coin for his decisions over a someone doing things via an in-depth explanation. But anyways that was a minor point so this is going off a tangent.
Congratulations though, that's a decent explanation. I'm wondering if I recognise whose behind the alt as well now.-
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So, why the GM push on victor is weird.
Starts with, after victor's rvs post, gm switches vote to him. Okay, but I can't follow it without an explanation. The implication is this isn't random.
112 is after BBT voted and unvoted on me,gm says "I kind of want to vote Toffee now but I really don't want to forget about Victor.". I think this justification is a little strange, I'm curious as to how the rvs post could warrant this suspicion over if you didn't like bbt's play around the wagon. Victor's 2nd post of the game is 162 which is afterwards so I have to conclude GM has a problem with the 1st.
Then after victor posted more, gm explained his read on both bbt and victor as scum for not doing anything, and later that victor was far worse than bbt. Mentioned this already but I don't see how you make that conclusion as I feel it's almost objective fact victor has been more involved.
Overall this isn't saying much other than it's a little weird and I'm having trouble understanding it, but this is worth exploring. I want to know what made the rvs-post bad and how victor has been "far worse" than BBT here. And to keep in mind, out all the things going on the in the game, this is the priority, or what GM would think is the most promising lead.-
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LOL this snark thoughIn post 243, TwoFace wrote:See I thought the tortoise and the hare reference would have cleared things up for you. Since that's an elementary level story.-
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but I enjoyed that oneIn post 248, TwoFace wrote:Sorry I'll work on being less snarky-
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Are you kidding meGo look at his entrance again. He comes in near the end of page two, throws a completely random vote, doesn't engage with the game in any way. Try and tell me that's in any way Town.-
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Wait this is interesting, didn't notice this.In post 311, Sotty7 wrote:My problem with Rask's case on Hoopla was that he was finding Hoopla scummy for things Hoopla does all the time. Things like dice tag voting are just reaction testing things she does. He would then go on to push Hoopla's suspicion of gm which I felt was pretty obvious how strong that was. I just felt like he was missing the point by a wide mark, which is why I made the comment about not having experience with Hoopla. Other Rask's posts lately feel good though, his case on GM is kinda like his case on Hoopla, so I'm thinking that's just how he reads potential scummy behavior, more black and white and less in between the lines.
Why was missing the point or not knowing hoopla meta something scummy to you?
I got the impression you voted for gamestate or the sake of getting an early wagon, but the contrast here with "his other posts are good" implies you scumread my case on hoopla.
But I don't see how "it's wrong, you don't know her/have experience with her like I do" equates into a scumread, even though I know you said you had changed your mind since then.-
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I THINK I like sotty now, although it really doesn't help that I saw her mentioned in the goat thread, and now that I check again its for scumplay no less.
PoE is actually starting to push BBT and IAI down at this point... GM still fishy but victor himself is one of my fringe townleans, and the whole exchange feels muddled. That said, probably not SonS.
Cloud was one of my better townreads but I don't know what the fuck he's doing now.-
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The way to read maria is to take your normal read and then assume the opposite.In post 345, Hoopla wrote:While you're here, Rask:
I got a little lost while interrogating Maria. You seem to know her well -- what do you make of her this game? What's her scum meta like?
No but I don't really want to share this one, I think I have a tell or two but I'm not sure myself if it's accurate yet.
Our last game I was trying to use it, without it I'd have scumread her more but because of the tell I had her at nullscum and lower priority than my other leads. But I died before I really made up my mind on her. She was town after all but it wasn't that conclusive a test.
Feel free to do research of your own though, that'd probably be interesting for me to read and compare at least (2 things - 1. her alt is xsonianevermindx with extra games/sample size, 2. she plays with people she knows from epicmafia, which makes her more relaxed/joking in some games, do not confuse that with an alignment tell).-
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I have a new conspiracy theory that involves BBT and sotty distancing while voting other people.
For BBT the maria scumread is for being useless/idling and relative to the sotty read you should feel the latter is stronger, as it's sotty pushing BBT for what bbt says is a very shallow way.
Sotty has what sounds like a strong bbt read too but wants to lynch twoface for something that sounds a lot weaker and kind of lame. Earlier pushing of each other is reasonable to assume wouldn't go that far, given weak reasonings given at that point. Sotty asking me if his bbt meta was outdated possibly expected me to say it was.
This is very hypocritical with what I said about earlier associations before I know but even so I can't unsee it. I recommend people look at the reads in the ISOs and try to form their own opinion here. Again, aware this is a wild really out-there theory but thinking of such things is just far more exciting than taking it slow.
I've been thinking more about sotty and when she said her strength as scum in selfmeta was with associations I had started to wonder if she was scum, what read would be her partner. Admittedly it is WIFOM in that it assumes at least half-true selfmeta from scum but even so.-
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VOTE: Sotty
Sotty is pushing twoface but bbt pushing maria I can at least understand. Pretty sure twoface is town but not nearly so sure on maria.
@BBT right now you're supposed to read what I said and react to it-
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@BV The thing is, looking at just the facts, BBT's push on maria is still reasonable. Maria's response isn't usual if you compare to most players but not really out of line with her usual omgusy/reactive style.
It's at this point still possible one of my townreads will do something to make me reconsider them, cloud I'm fading a bit on and furthermore IAI isn't even ingame.
I'm still not entirely sure BBT is scum even if sotty is. Problem is that individually, if you throw out associations he's more null than a scumread to me.-
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Maybe it's just me, but if I think someone's scum I'm usually not too concerned if they "think" something I do is scummy.In post 469, Sotty7 wrote:I like to put my vote to work, with BBT's inactivity I didn't find in towns best interest to just sit around and let the game get stagnant. I'm going to move my vote, I'm going to pressure people. It's the name of the game and it was part of the reason I wanted twoface to commit with a vote. I have a feeling that if I had left my vote on BBT, he would have found that scummy as well.
Now, the vote away while BBT was inactive isn't so bad. But when you say his catchup was scummy again in 416 I kind of expected a change back, and you were even conscious of vote there given your statement to mod.-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Well if that isn't a melodramatic ridiculously over the top read greyice I don't know what is
no comment on the rest but who needs to read any further when you can make out a small (nai?) disclaimer to be the rosetta stone-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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I do feel this is really apologetic for voting someone you supposedly think is gonna flip scumIn post 828, Hoopla wrote:Your thoughts have value IF you're town. If we had a full day tomorrow, I'm sure we could talk about anything. You could even interrogate Michel's slot, but now isn't the time. In saying all that, the spirited defenses of Jack put up by TwoFace and BlackVoid, along with your refusal to compromise makes me think that lynch isn't as viable as I thought anyhow and perhaps that window of opportunity has passed, so I'm jumping back on your wagon...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: GreyICE
L-1 again. Someone should declare intent soon...-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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I don't get talking to someone like this and then voting them to l-1 a bit laterIn post 793, Hoopla wrote:
Classic Leo behaviour...In post 790, GreyICE wrote:Sorry, I don't value my own survival above a scum death.
Obviously I prefer not me to me, but given I've got until Thursday to rally a lynch on someone I think is scum AND I want to talk to Sableheart's replacement even more now, I'm perfectly content with this.
Grey, it's time to let go and help the town by supporting a viable counterwagon.-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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- Joined: November 15, 2015