Mini 1800 - Game Over

[Saru]

Hey all, sorry for jumping in late. Just read through the 5 pages and gonna list my tells from that:
{Chumba, Mizzytastic}
{Persivul, Snork}
{Everyone else}
{Kappy, MechaGoomba}
{Sickofit1138}
Basically, like that Chumba and Mizzytastic are asking questions(that don't sound like busy-work) and are just generally doing some good scumhunting. Especially like the banter between Chumba and MechaGoomba that help form my nullscum read of him(more on that in a sec).

I like that Persivul pointed out the contradiction between Sick's posts about the whole wagon issue with Kappy. Seemed like a slip that was nicely picked up on. Also, love the point that Snork made about Mecha's questions toward Chumba looking like busy-work more than anything.

Null reads are just people who didn't post enough yet or nothing in their posts does anything to sway my opinion of them one way or the other.

I don't like Kappy's posts at all. They don't ring scum all the way, but they also don't contain any real substance and just seem to distract from the matters at hand, very anti-town style. As for the whole self-voting thing, I looked at it as simply RVS and don't see much more behind it. As for Mecha, his argument with Chumba(as stated before) made him look pretty weak in my eyes. Almost all of his counters were BS and effectively countered by Chumba or others, and especially his statement about devil's advocate arguments not being invested in, which horribly misses the very point of devil's advocate. Devil's advocate simply brings up something to think about, from which more ideas can then be fleshed out of, which can then be acted upon accordingly(i.e. Forming tells, votes, etc.) The initial argument in a devil's advocate doesn't need to be invested in simply because investment suggests that the (initial) argument was put forward to be acted upon, which isn't the case. Meant for expansion more than anything.

As for Sick, didn't like his responses to Persivul about his contradiction. He's either not reading the latter half of Persivul's argument, or is ignoring it on purpose. Either way, no good. Don't like the slip and don't like the arguments(or lack thereof) used to conceal it.

With all that being said:
VOTE: Sickofit1138

[Saru]

After reading from page 5 to page 9, here are my tells:
{Chumba, Mizzytastic}
{Sickofit1138, ShadyHood, Snork}
{Everyone else}
{MechaGoomba}
{Persivul}

For my previous tells: post #111

Chumba and Mizzytastic because of reasons previously stated. Don't seem to have differed much since then.

As for Sick, I like this post #138 because he finally replies to Persivul with a fine explanation for the contradiction about the whole wagon issue. As much as I hated the contradiction, I hated it even more that Sick never posted an explanation or reply to Persivul about that, but he finally has. Good for him. Also like that Sick pointed out that Persivul has his own glaring contradiction that has yet to be addressed(more on that in a sec). Didn't like that Sick was so quick to put up scenarios for lynching either him or Persivul, but that came off as fustrated townie more than anything. As for Shady, I like his replies to Persivul, seem very effective and full of good content. Although, I have to disagree with Shady about town voting up someone via weak reasoning, because as Persivul pointed out, weak reasoning is all that the town has in the start to go off anyways, and a vote in that regard can help push for something more out of the player being voted on. Such as good counters, explanations, etc. But that disagreement is neither here nor there. Snork because of reasons previously stated. Hasn't posted since then anyways.

As for nullreads, I do have two exceptions who are on the fence either way. Kappy whose posts have seemed to increase(although still minimal) in content. Waiting to see what he has to say about Persivul vs. Sick as he said he would make a big (I'm also assuming great content filled) post on it. Depending on that post, I might go either way with him. And then Karnos who seems to be playing like a frustrated n00b townie. I like his point about 638 being multi-ball, good counter to Persivul in that regard. But his posts about Dierfire seem to be full of frustration that stems from lurking, or rather, lurking then coming back with a no content post. However, I do believe that Dierfire is having connection issues and don't mind giving him the 24 hours he wanted to contribute to the thread.

As for MechaGoomba, because of reasons stated previously but also because in his post #211 in which he totally misses the Persivul contradiction pointed out by Sick. Also, Sick HAS said something about it by asking Persivul to address it (post #142 which seems only reasonable as Persivul asked the same thing of Sick with his own contradiction. Don't like that Mecha doesn't pick up on these things, as the same thing happened to him in his argument with Chumba, in which Chumba pointed out the reading issues. Reading the preview, I see that Mecha has said that he assumed that the contradiction was before post #57 even though he supposedly read Persivul's whole ISO, so still not sure how he missed it even WITH that assumption.

And finally, Persivul. I had a nulltown tell on him for pointing out the Sick wagon contradiction, but as pointed out above, that issue seems to be addressed(imo) and he seems to be beating a dead horse. On top of that, he's doing EXACTLY what caused me to put Sick into my scum tell. He hasn't addressed his own contradiction pointed out by Sick even though Persivul has even replied to Mecha(in the time I was typing out this post) explaining what Sick is calling him out on. That just comes off as dodging, big time. No bueno.

Therefore:
UNVOTE: Sickofit1138
VOTE: Persivul

[Saru]

lol, I fucked up those post tags. Just refer to them manually I guess. Sorry about that.

[Saru]

Like the persivul vote but how is kappy a null read?

Just reading through his ISO, I didn't see much content in the start. Then, as I said before, his more recent posts seem to be picking up(somewhat) on content. From my understanding(correct me if I'm wrong), your voting Kappy for voting himself in RVS. As I said in my first tell post, that didn't mean anything to me. I didn't read that as scum at all, just RVS and therefore null.

Just a question(or a couple) for you Chumba: if you are voting for Kappy totally based on the self-vote in RVS, what about that makes it scummy? I'm not sure I understand the reasoning. I read your post #46, but I'm not convinced. You also say that you are parking your vote with Kappy unless someone scum slips. So, looking at the whole thing with Persivul, don't you feel that what he has done so far merits more of a slip(or just scummy behavior) than anything Kappy has? You pointed out name calling with Kappy, but once again, more anti-town than scum behavior, if anything. So I must ask, are you still parked with Kappy over Persivul, and if so, why?

[Saru]

Also, one thing I forgot to mention, he's also null because as I said before, I'm waiting on his Sick vs. Persivul post that he said he was going to do when he has the time. I'm interested in what his perspective is going to be on all that and might inform my tell on him a bit better.

[Saru]

Just a question(or a couple) for you Chumba: if you are voting for Kappy totally based on the self-vote in RVS, what about that makes it scummy?

Do people not read my posts? I'm not voting him just cause of his self vote in RVS

vote: kappy

For self voting

I think self voting at anytime scummy and town should never do it hence my vote. He's not town imo. Look at his other posts also and it just proves he's not town. The vote hopping and name calling (which is unnecessary) are not things I see coming from town so unless somebody scum slips I'm pretty much parking here

And while it wasn't given as an actual reason, I'm including the below because town wants to hurry up and find scum. They don't want to prolong Rvs imo.

Kappy, what do you hope to achieve by moving your vote around?

Absolutely nothing. This is RVS.

Sorry RVS is over and was over on page 1 imo.

It's quite obvious you didn't read mine. Funny how you accuse others of that. Noted.

Anyways, if you were actually reading my post, you would have saw that I said that I

read

your post #46 and

DID NOT

find it convincing. A self-vote in RVS(especially being the first vote in the thread) is not scummy at all, and I don't know what logic your following to come to that conclusion. On top of that, you say "look at his other posts and also and it just proves he's not town" while never providing those specific posts and what in them cause him to not be town. Don't tell others to do your dirty work for you. Go find them and convince us he's not town if your so sure.

Basically, I was asking for more reasoning as to why you voted for Kappy. Since your unable to provide more, I can only conclude that your vote on Kappy is BS and therefore I'm now seeing you more as nullscum than town. Your response to my questions have no real reasoning and your accusation of me not reading your posts is beyond ironic.

FoS: Chumba

[Saru]

You're right. As soon as you said I voted kappy for his self vote in Rvs I stopped reading the rest of your post. That's not reading comprehension failure. That's choosing to not continue reading a post that's already starting out false.

I can't give you more reason because I've given all I have. Those 3 things are the most damning things I've seen all game and I'm now convinced kappy is scum and today really needs to end with kappy swinging from the gallows. I'm fine with a persivul lynch but I won't join it cause I'm a woman of my word. I'm parking on kappy

I never said it was reading comprehension failure. I clearly said you chose not to read my post. Or as your saying, you didn't continue to.

Ok so, I must ask you then, how many reasons do you have of suspecting Persivul? Because as I've pointed out, the quality of your reasons for Kappy are pretty bad, and so I can only assume your going off of quantity. The latter half of your post reeks with n00b scum, especially this:

Those 3 things are the most damning things I've seen all game and I'm now convinced kappy is scum and today really needs to end with kappy swinging from the gallows. I'm fine with a persivul lynch but I won't join it cause I'm a woman of my word. I'm parking on kappy

You say you've played mafia for 5 years, but this post smells like n00b scum. Especially given the EMOTIONAL reasoning of "I'm a woman of my word."

So then, another question, if your fine with a Persivul lynch, does that mean that if Persivul were to end up at L-1 without your vote included, would you end up switching your vote from Kappy to hammer Persivul? Just curious.

[Saru]

And actually this is unrelated to this game but unfortunately I need to

request replacement

I realize this site isn't the right place for me. Good luck everyone.

Guess my questions won't be answered now.
Good luck.

[Saru]

Kappy, you do understand that Persivul put a townread onto Sick, right? Go look at posts 150 and 157. Not sure what you mean by Sick trying to trick Persivul into admitting he's town as Persivul already townreads Sick, at-least from his most recent reads post.

You say that:

3. Absolutely. Think of it this way, if someone votes for someone for being scummy, then changes their vote because someone else is scummier, do you forget all about the first person being scummy?

But it seems that Persivul didn't switch his vote onto you because he found you SCUMMIER than Sick, rather he just finds you to be scum and Sick to now be "town to some degree" as he puts it.

Also, it's not WIFOM for Sick to use Persivul's reasoning to show that he's town because Persivul himself at that point had accused Sick of being scum for the wagon contradiction. It feels more like Sick was trying to catch Persivul is his own little contradiction, which I think he did. Basically, Sick isn't claiming to be anything, just using Persivul's own logic against him. That's how I read it anyways.

Lastly, I find it odd that you don't like it when Sick is still pushing the contradiction issue with Persivul, but all of sudden you don't know what to make of it when Persivul was pushing onto Sick for his wagon thing even though you admit that Sick had cleared that up. If you're not sure about one person doing the same action as another person whose actions you don't like, that just seems like you're cherry-picking actions and reasoning based on the person rather than the actual action or reason. Not good.

Huge FoS/AoS: Kappy

I said I was gonna change my tell on you based on your Sick vs. Persivul post, and seeing as most of it is filled with terrible reasoning, you're a nullscum read for me now. Also, seeing as you're at L-2, care to post your thoughts about the people who are voting for you? What do you make of them and their reasons(if any) for voting you?

[Saru]

Also, Kappy, I would like to point out that this from Persivul:

Sharks rule the water...Penguins rule the ice!

That's just him talking about the NHL playoff game between the Sharks and the Penguins. I'm assuming he's a Penguins fan.

[Saru]

[Saru]

Also, Kappy, I would like to point out that this from Persivul:

Sharks rule the water...Penguins rule the ice!

That's just him talking about the NHL playoff game between the Sharks and the Penguins. I'm assuming he's a Penguins fan.

Oh. I don't watch hockey.

Neither do I. I just saw the ice part and googled like a champ.

[Saru]

Thanks! Now reply to my post! kthxbai

[Saru]

That puts persivul at

L-2

. Tread carefully people.

[Saru]

That puts persivul at

L-2

. Tread carefully people.

LAMIST

This is not LAMIST because as I've stated previously, I wanted to see more out of you. Perhaps an answer to Sick about your contradiction, which you have yet to answer about. Or why you think my reasoning for voting you is wrong. In that sense, I'm basically telling people to wait for you to defend yourself before some silly little goose puts you at L-1 or even worse, hammers. Everyone deserves a defense, regardless of their scumminess. Hopefully you get to it.

@qubixes - read above.

My read on Persivul is still very strong, but Kappy is a close second at this point. Persivul, if you haven't already, can you give me your thoughts/tells on the people who are voting for you? Same question to Kappy, who has yet to answer.

[Saru]

Also, if you were put at L-1, I would unvote you until you did defend yourself.

[Saru]

This is not LAMIST because as I've stated previously, I wanted to see more out of you.

First, I have 44 posts, you have 15 - and you want more out of

me

?

lmfao, so apparently your 44 posts were ALL ABOUT you replying to Sick and his contradiction? No. When I say I wanted to see more out of you, I meant on that issue. You've repeatedly refuse to answer it, even up to this point. Noted.

Second, pressure tends to get information out of people. So, you urging caution rather than an L-1 is indeed LAMIST, and goes against your stated desire of getting more out of me.

No, no, and no. This is BS on so many levels. I've seen people lose their shit and even claim on L-2 because they felt so under pressure from being in that position. L-1 is stupid to advocate for when you're waiting on someone to simply defend them-self or answer certain questions. *hint**hint* L-1 makes it so that someone can hammer before a defense is made, I've seen it happen countless times before. Not looking for the same thing here. L-2 is more than adequate enough for pressure in my eyes, especially when I was not looking for a claim, just a defense.

Perhaps an answer to Sick about your contradiction, which you have yet to answer about.

I addressed it some time ago:

he's not hurting town either though.

Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.

If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet? I haven't seen it if you did.

People push to sort. For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.

Wtf is this??? You don't answer the question being asked. There is no answer here. Literally. Please bold me for the answer, cause I'm either blind or you're just making stuff up now. I'm gonna go with the latter. Chumba clearly asked you about your own contradiction, and you answer her by talking about Sick's contradiction. What??

My responses are in

bold

.

As for your quickhammer suggestion, it shows that you clearly didn't read/understand why I would unvote you at L-1. As previously stated, I would have waited for a defense. At this point, if this is your defense against my vote, it's pretty damn bad. You never address my main point for voting you. Instead, you give me some irrelevant quote with a non-answer. And to answer qubixes, sort of. My suspicion on him was built from the contradiction argument by Sick, and so my vote was put to get a reaction/defense out of Persivul. It's basically the same thing that I did to Sick with his own contradiction. The difference here is that while I found Sick's defense good enough for me to unvote him, Persivul hasn't convinced me in the same way. If you read my responses above, you can see why I'm not convinced.

[Saru]

Also, just to note, after that horrible defense of yours, I actually wouldn't unvote at L-1 at this point.

[Saru]

Actually Percivuls general misunderstanding and not reading the thread spells s-c-u-m-m-y to me at least

You have that backwards. People tend to be more careful as scum than as town.

I just picked up on this.
Persivul according to this reasoning I would be town.

You are only using objective tells when they suit your case.
You reasoning is not solid and therefore you are my biggest scum read.

@Percy

Address this plz instead of stayin on my "contradictory posts".

This. What do you make of your reasoning of "people tend to be more careful as scum than as town" being used by Sick to point out that through this line of reasoning, that would make him town in your eyes. And while I understand you switched your vote off Sick and made him a townread, it was way after that post. During that post, you still were voting for him and pushing him on his posts.

Just to clarify, its not the contradiction that bothers me so much. It's your reaction to my(and others) asking about it when it first came up. The fact that you repeatedly ignored those questions seemed as if you were dodging a potential slip.

Like I said, I did the same exact thing with Sick, and he had absolutely no problem with clarifying the confusion on his wagon contradiction. You and I both were on Sick in the start to get a reaction out of him, and then base our reads off of that. We both pretty much townread him. In that same sense, I was on you to get a reaction out of you, and the one I got(or lack of) was disturbing, to say the least. You could just be horribly aloof, but it would have to be extremely aloof for you to miss the question posed to you a million times by myself and others in the start.

[Saru]

he's not hurting town either though.

Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.

If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.

did you address your own contradiction yet?

I haven't seen it if you did.

People push to sort.

For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.

Let me ask, Persivul, is the bold part of Chumba's question being answered by the bold part in your post?

[Saru]

Funny how you say the answer is "already evident" but by actually reading the answer(that was bold) to the question presented(that was also bold), it doesn't line up as a logical answer at all.

Chumba - "did you address

YOUR OWN

contradiction yet?"
Persivul - "For me, the issue wasn't

HIS

contradiction..."

Do you seriously expect me to believe that you were answering the question? Let's be real here. That makes no sense.

As for your responses to me in post 270, I agree with your actions toward Sick being just fine. I did the same thing you did in that regard. That's not why I'm voting you though. So not sure why you need to tell me what you did as I've already said I understand and that it makes sense.

Still not convinced by your argument that the answer was evident, when I've pointed out it clearly wasn't. My vote stays.

[Saru]

What is the scum motivation? Why did I go out of my way to clear a person who I know to be an easy D1 mislynch target? Look to our last game together - he was a total VI, to the point of self hammering.

So your answer is?

Are you seriously asking me? Didn't I already say I agree with what you did with Sick wasn't bad in my previous post? Nothing wrong with it. Na-da. Zip. I also did the same thing.

From my previous post:
"As for your responses to me in post 270, I agree with your actions toward Sick being just fine. I did the same thing you did in that regard. That's not why I'm voting you though."

What a couple of seconds of reading can do for you.

[Saru]

Also, you say you clear Sick via town meta from a previous game.

In post 172, you say "A handful of posts matching meta from a single scum game is enough to create suspicion, but not a full scum read."

So then would you agree that a handful of posts matching town meta from a single game is not enough to confirm someone as town?

[Saru]

Irony is lost on you...

Nope. I had a feeling you would say this. Unlike you, I answered the question, twice, and clearly.

[Saru]

Also, you say you clear Sick via town meta from a previous game.

In post 172, you say "A handful of posts matching meta from a single scum game is enough to create suspicion, but not a full scum read."

So then would you agree that a handful of posts matching town meta from a single game is not enough to confirm someone as town?

Confirm? No. Move to the town side of null? Yes.

What's scum!pers's motivation for moving an easy mislynch target to his town group?

Ok so then, if both lead to a null version of their respected alignment, that means for you Sick should be a null read and not a nulltown read as you said that he played to his scum meta in the start and then his town meta later on. Wouldn't the two cancel each other out in your eyes, leading to a simple null read? This isn't an accusation by the way, just curious as to your viewpoint.

And don't know why you keep asking me that second question as I haven't already answered. I've already told you that there is no scum motivation. I did the same thing you did. But let me guess, you're gonna say irony is lost on me.

[Saru]

Ok so then, if both lead to a null version of their respected alignment, that means for you Sick should be a null read and not a nulltown read as you said that he played to his scum meta in the start and then his town meta later on. Wouldn't the two cancel each other out in your eyes, leading to a simple null read? This isn't an accusation by the way, just curious as to your viewpoint.

Reads evolve over time. I go with my most recent read. I don't average my reads over time to get my current read. Frankly that seems pretty stupid, and I'm surprised you advocate it.

Do you employ it yourself? You agree that my push on sick was townie. You find my lack of responsiveness to the question on the contradiction scummy. So, I should be a null read for you. Yet, you're voting me. Do you always vote your null reads?

And don't know why you keep asking me that second question as I haven't already answered.

That's why I keep asking - because you haven't already answered.

I've already told you that there is no scum motivation.

Oh fuck, you slipped!

Ok so as to your first point, I didn't advocate for the averaging out of reads. Good job putting words in my mouth like the good little scum you are. I don't employ it myself, so no, I don't need to have a null read on you because I don't follow that logic. Noticed how I asked "in your eyes" because I was looking for your viewpoint, as simple as that. That fact that you got so defensive to the point you had to put words in my mouth is hilarious. Obv scum is obv.

And no, I didn't slip. How dense are you?
I have already said OVER and OVER and OVER again that I'm not voting you for what you did with Sick. So me clearing you on that and not calling it scum motivation is not a slip. Your ability to read things(or lack thereof) are showing. Hide it quick before you're on the noose.

[Saru]

I'm done. You can have the last word. I get the feeling you're not scum, but rather bad town - bad enough you need to hide behind an alt.

Read my wiki, this isn't an alt.

[Saru]

Also it's supposed to say "And don't know why you keep asking me that second question as

if

I haven't already answered" in my post 280. Just noticed that.

[Saru]

Players who were posting elsewhere on site but let that 1v1 go on uninterrupted: sick, karnos.

p-edit:

NSS, that was the slip

.

Doesn't make sense but ok Sherlock.

[Saru]

I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos.

I lol'd.

[Saru]

From my understanding, I think Sick is talking to Persivul in post 309 and he's saying that he doesn't believe Persivul when he says that he was reaction testing Sick. Sick thinks that Persivul was using reaction testing as an excuse to jump off a deteriorating wagon. I don't agree with that analysis though as stated in my previous posts.

And then in post 310 and 311, it sounds like he's angry that people are supposedly just following whatever Persivul is saying as truth, which he thinks also includes you Mecha.

Hope that's correct. Took me a while to understand lmfao.

[Saru]

I don't agree with that analysis though as stated in my previous posts.

Most of your previous posts were complaining because you didn't see an explanation, and also because you believed Persy was dodging the question. But the gap between 124 where the question was raised and 165 where the answer was provided is not actually that large. There's a much bigger gap between the start of the game and 138 where Sick explained his contradiction, yet you're not pushing him.

I guess we know who doesn't read in this game. First off, my disagreement with Sick's analysis has nothing to do with Persivul dodging the question. I don't know why you're bringing that up as some kind of counter to my disagreement with Sick. If it wasn't a counter, then there was no reason for you to quote that part. Go reread what I wrote, then come back with a coherent argument. Secondly, as to your point about Persivul answering the question, no. It shows you probably just skimmed the whole 1v1 between Persivul and I where I CLEARLY said I didn't think his "answer" in post 165 was a logical one compared to Chumba's question in post 162 and explained why by lining the two up. Lastly, if we're being technical here about "gaps", then actually Sick's explanation for his wagon contradiction was explained by him in post 9. But even then, let's say that Sick took too long to answer the question, in my eyes, that's still better than not answering the question at all like Persivul.

However, let's use your point about Persivul actually answering the question in post 165 and

let's say

that it was a logical answer to the question, and that makes you satisfied with both Sick and Persivul in regard to their explanations. If we take that point, and apply it to the fact that Sick was willing enough to keep answering the question presented by Persivul and others over and over until it was finally cleared up, that reads as more townie to me as opposed to someone like Persivul who answered the question in one post, but wasn't willing to repeat it in more clear terms for us n00bs who obviously didn't see his answer clear enough. Why wouldn't Persivul just keep repeating his answer in a more clear way for these people instead of refusing to answer, and creating more confusion around it? Creating confusion is never a townie thing to do. I don't care how frustrated you are with the situation. Adjusting your explanation to fit other people's understanding is never a bad thing, and that's what Sick pretty much did and what Persivul didn't do.

You want to know how I know I'm right about that second paragraph? Because just look at you and Shady as examples. You clearly understood Persivul's totally logical answer to the question, amirite? Whereas Shady is still on about how Persivul has clearly not answered the question presented(post 323). Here, we see two different modes of understanding. What if Persivul simply chose to explain to Shady in a way that Shady could understand? Wouldn't that help dissipate the confusion?

[Saru]

However, let's use your point about Persivul actually answering the question in post 165 and let's say that it was a logical answer to the question, and that makes you satisfied with both Sick and Persivul in regard to their explanations. If we take that point, and apply it to the fact that Sick was willing enough to keep answering the question presented by Persivul and others over and over until it was finally cleared up, that reads as more townie to me as opposed to someone like Persivul who answered the question in one post, but wasn't willing to repeat it in more clear terms for us n00bs who obviously didn't see his answer clear enough. Why wouldn't Persivul just keep repeating his answer in a more clear way for these people instead of refusing to answer, and creating more confusion around it? Creating confusion is never a townie thing to do. I don't care how frustrated you are with the situation. Adjusting your explanation to fit other people's understanding is never a bad thing, and that's what Sick pretty much did and what Persivul didn't do.

This is what's wrong with this game so far. Too many people are just looking at their newbie list of actions that do or don't feel townie, and completely disregarding the motivations behind those actions.

You

don't care

about frustration?

Seriously?

You damn well better start caring, and learn to distinguish between town frustration, scum frustration, and fake frustration, if you want to be any good at this game.

OK expert mafia player, then please give me your motivation behind allowing confusion to run rampant about your answer. Let us n00bies know why we're so wrong. Please do. I really want to learn master. Please.

Also, yes, I do care about frustration. Did you not see my post 214 where I clearly say:

Didn't like that Sick was so quick to put up scenarios for lynching either him or Persivul, but that came off as frustrated townie more than anything.

But of course, I don't expect you to read my n00b posts. You're too good for that.

Where I find frustration to be stupid is when it leads you to not explaining yourself to others in a coherent way. You seem to hate having to repeat your supposed answer which makes me feel it wasn't an answer at all, but your trying to turn it into one.

[Saru]

disagreement with Sick's analysis

Um, I thought you meant you disagreed with Persy's analysis. I mean, if you disagree with Sick's analysis that Persy is scum, then, well, why are you voting for Persy?

I disagree with Sick that Persivul backing out of the wagon was scum because he backed out for the same reason I did: reaction testing and finding the reaction to be fairly townie.

I CLEARLY said I didn't think his "answer" in post 165 was a logical one compared to Chumba's question in post 162 and explained why by lining the two up

Yes, in 272 you said that. Then, in 300 I explained that you had misunderstood what he was saying. If you have reasons you don't like that explanation, I'd like to hear them.

Your explanation looks fine, but the fact that you have to come in and give that explanation for Persivul while Persivul refused to do it himself didn't sit right with me, going back to my confusion argument. Look at Sick and Shady for example.

Creating confusion is never a townie thing to do. I don't care how frustrated you are with the situation.
[...]
What if Persivul simply chose to explain to Shady in a way that Shady could understand? Wouldn't that help dissipate the confusion?

[sarcasm] Your 316 created confusion by having ambiguity over whether it was Sick or Persy that you disagreed with. After you saw that I was confused, rather than clarify, you took a cheap shot at me by claiming that I was not reading. Therefore, you are mafia. [/sarcasm]

Sure, I took a cheap shot at you, but I also gave an explanation next to it to help clarify what I meant. Regardless of how frustrated I was, I chose to clarify regardless. If you didn't like the clarification or didn't understand it, then go read the first bold line of this post.

Communication is a two way street. Both the speaker and the listener bear blame when miscommunication happens. To blame the listener ("you're not reading") when you're the speaker and blame the speaker ("creating confusion") when you're the listener is untenable.
And regardless of who's to blame, miscommunication is

not alignment indicative

.

Miscommunication is fine, when it first happens. But allowing it to exist for as long as Persivul did (and actually still exists for some people: Sick and Shady, although that's not his fault), is not a townie thing to do. Period. When I'm the speaker, I do blame the listener for not reading correctly if they misunderstand, but I STILL choose to explain in another way as I'm doing with you. I can blame the speaker for creating confusion if I'm the listener if they don't provide an explanation in the first place.

EBWOP:

But of course, I don't expect you to read my n00b posts. You're too good for that.

[sincerity] Please, just take a step back. Go do something else, stop thinking about this game, come back with a fresh perspective later. You're angry, you're confbiasing hard, and you're not getting anywhere. [/sincerity]

[sarcasm]Wow, you think just because you're an expert mafia player you can tell me to step away? Ok, master, I'm sorry, I'll step away.[/sarcasm] I'm not angry, it's a joke.

Responses in bold. With all that being said, UNVOTE: Persivul and VOTE: Kappy and yes, that puts him at L-2. Once again, tread carefully. I've seen enough out of Persivul at this point and not enough out of Kappy. Hopefully you have good internet in Kansas, Kappy.

Sick, no offense, but go read some of Persivul's ISO before clinging onto me.

Also, welcome The Bulge!

[Saru]

I disagree. I think Mecha is just trying to clear up a confusing situation. For that, I townread him.

[Saru]

Also, if you think Kappy is on a scum team with Mecha and Persivul, then that means they're bussing. Any reason why you think they might do that? Just curious.

[Saru]

OK expert mafia player, then please give me your motivation behind allowing confusion to run rampant about your answer. Let us n00bies know why we're so wrong. Please do. I really want to learn master. Please.

OK. Your argument against me is that I'm not proactively acting townie enough.
Scum has as much - possibly more - motivation to appear townie.
So, your point on me is NAI.

No. By allowing confusion to run rampant, it can distract from scummy play. If scum wasn't playing townie enough, they might choose to divert attention away from themselves by some means. It could be by lurking, creating confusion, etc. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. IOW, it can backfire.

[Saru]

OK. Your argument against me is that I'm not proactively acting townie enough.
Scum has as much - possibly more - motivation to appear townie.
So, your point on me is NAI.

... Persivul, that is quite possibly the WIFOMest argument I've ever heard anyone make.


Saru, for what it's worth, I'm sorry. I tend to react poorly when I get the impression that people are dismissing me, and because of that, I crossed a line.
I still don't agree with your Persivul read, but I see your reasoning. I hope we'll be able to discuss this again once there's more information: as it is now, everything I have to say has been said.

No need to apologize, I should have been more clear. Sorry about that.
And, to be honest, my Persivul read is starting to teeter. Therefore, the unvote. Waiting on Kappy to come back and respond to people who are voting him.

[Saru]

Saru, what's with the flip on Kappy?

From my previous posts, I pointed to Kappy being my second choice for scum behind you. Reasons for this are in those posts. However, since then, Mecha has come in and I feel has presented a good case in your favor, and so while I still have some doubts, I'm just reading you null for now. Plus, I want to pressure Kappy to respond and like I've said previously, I feel L-2 is a good point for that.

[Saru]

Karnos, just a note on your read of me. I'm not voting Kappy just for pressure. My other reasons are in post 237, along with the fact that he didn't answer my questions presented to him in that post, instead, focusing on my hockey post. Even if I were voting him just for pressure and admitted to that, it's not a bad thing to do because my vote put him at L-2, so he's gonna have to be pressured anyways, regardless of admission. It'd be bad if I admitted to it when my vote only put him at something like L-5 instead. Just my view on that.

[Saru]

I can't speak for Persivul, but I did have questions for you, I presented them in post 237.

Also, seeing as you're at L-2, care to post your thoughts about the people who are voting for you? What do you make of them and their reasons(if any) for voting you?

You chose to ignore them and talk to me about hockey.

[Saru]

VOTE: sickofit

Eager to see something - anything really - from the shadyhood replacement

VOTE: The Bulge

I just looked at the automated vote counter, and I noticed that it says that in post 350(the one quoted above), Persivul voted for himself, regardless of whether you check the box to process questionable votes or not. I'm thinking because The Bulge hasn't been entered as a player in the game yet? Whatever the reason, might want to look at that getting fixed.

[Saru]

I remembered reading him as very open towny, so I looked through some of his games where he was town and his play here doesn't look anything like it.

I sorta agree with your analysis, but when I open the spoiler I drown in words and colors and argh why. Please, for the love of god, don't wall like that and especially don't do post-by-post. It's really hard to read and often can intimidate people into agreeing.

It looks like I have been a bit overzealous indeed. I thought I would just find a couple of things, but I found really a lot. Honestly though, if you don't want to wade through the whole thing, the main point is made outside the spoiler. The only main point that I could add is that there do seem to be a decent amount of excuses in his ISO.

You don't like the colors? Aw, I thought it would be handy to more quickly skim the quotes for the different points. Maybe we should hold a vote! I'll not do that anymore if everyone hates it obviously.

Also, I'm fine if people agree without reading the quote wall. So don't feel intimidated if you agree without reading it .

I'll comment on what I think about Karnos from reading your post after I look over some of his town games and meta. But, for what it's worth, just reading through your post without actually looking at the games you linked to, I do see your reasoning for suspecting Karnos.

I personally loved the colors and found that they helped me follow your points better. Seems to just be a matter of preference.

You shouldn't be fine with people agreeing with just a TL;DR tbh. Or even posting a TL;DR in the first place. Too easy for lazy scum to just agree with it and jump on the opportunity to vote. Make it harder for scum who are acting townie, not easier.

[Saru]

I'll comment on what I think about Karnos from reading your post after I look over some of his town games and meta. But, for what it's worth, just reading through your post without actually looking at the games you linked to, I do see your reasoning for suspecting Karnos.

I personally loved the colors and found that they helped me follow your points better. Seems to just be a matter of preference.

You shouldn't be fine with people agreeing with just a TL;DR tbh. Or even posting a TL;DR in the first place. Too easy for lazy scum to just agree with it and jump on the opportunity to vote. Make it harder for scum who are acting townie, not easier.

Well, the way people hop on to the wagon in itself can also give away their alignment. If we find scum lazily hopping on the wagon, that's fine with me too. Though of course if I'm correct in that karnos is actually scum, their partners are not likely hopping on lazily . I don't know really. Some people are going to be lazy regardless of alignment, so for those a summary is good to get the point across. Also, I think with a summary at the start the wall itself is more easy to follow.

Well then it just promotes laziness in general. Much rather you stay away from it, but I do see your point about catching scum lazily hopping on too.

[Saru]

Karnos, about the whole "how many scum are in the game", go read post 116 by Persivul. I think what he said makes sense on that matter. But, of course, it isn't set in stone.

Also, to be fair to Qubixes, he did say in post 364 that he was going to go into his scum read in his next post, which he did. Also, why would he have to justify his vote? I might have missed it(please do point out if I did), but I didn't see anyone in particular pressuring or even asking Qubixes why he specifically voted you. Persivul does say in post 319 that "how do you intend to sort people if you don't pressure your scum reads?" but that seemed more of a suggestion/advice on what to do rather than a pressure statement. He could have easily let his vote on you slip under the radar instead of attracting so much attention to it or himself. Just some food for thought.

[Saru]

I tend to do that. After RVS, I find it's hard for me to maintain a high post count.

I have an idea that will increase your post count, how about answering my questions?

[Saru]

I tend to do that. After RVS, I find it's hard for me to maintain a high post count.

I have an idea that will increase your post count, how about answering my questions?

Good idea!

Also, seeing as you're at L-2, care to post your thoughts about the people who are voting for you? What do you make of them and their reasons(if any) for voting you?

Saru:

It seems like he is voting for me because he doesn't like the content of my posts. I don't really know what to say to this.

Mecha:

He just doesn't like 235, since he claims it is all recycled. That may be true, but I was placing my opinion on it, since I hadn't mentioned my opinion before.

Dierfire:

He just commented on the weird association between me and Sick. I just want to point out that I scumread Sick, but I have to UNVOTE: for now to give his replacement a chance.
Is that what you want?

Yes. Also, give me your read list.

[Saru]

You'll be in Kansas until next Saturday, right? That means you won't be focused on this game for a whole week. The deadline is in 9 days from now. Don't you think that calls for a replacement? Not even kidding. Not contributing for a whole week while you have a good amount of suspicion on you will either lead to a policy lynch or replacement. I really prefer the latter at the moment.

[Saru]

While kappy is barely posting because he is in Kansas, there are a number of player who have been posting even less, or not at all in the past few days. Why single him out?

The ones I haven't seen post in some time are Shady(being replaced still), Sick(also still being replaced), Mizzy(said she was taking a break, but has been a while since then), Species(he did offer a prodge but has yet to post since then), and Snork(who hasn't posted since he came back from his niece's graduation, so pretty much 3 days).

It wasn't a single out of Kappy more than it was looking towards the future. I thought he meant he

couldn't

focus on mafia for a whole week, but he cleared up by saying it just isn't his

main

focus right now, which is fine. There are only 3 people out of the 5 I listed who don't have valid excuses for not posting. But they might come back into it with a prodge and then post some real content. Kappy's situation(I felt) was totally different.

[Saru]

After looking through Karnos' ISO from Newbie 1700(his second game on the site), Qubixes was right when he said that Karnos played very differently throughout that whole game(he was town) compared to this one. His posts seem to come off as aggressive from the very start, defending himself from any accusations without much backpedaling and just being confident about how he feels in a certain situation. Compare this to the way he posted in the beginning of the game(for this purpose, beginning for Karnos is defined as

before

his recent reads list) where he, as Qubixes pointed out, posted very carefully and it seemed like he was watching his every word. However, now, in this recent back and forth between him and those voting/suspecting him, he seems to be posting like he did in Newbie 1700. Very aggressive and not backing off from his arguments. He seems to be arguing with Mecha(with pretty bad arguments if we're being honest) kind of out of the blue. It feels like he's voting Mecha because Mecha was the first one on his scum list to speak up against him. I'd imagine if Kappy spoke up first(not like that would ever happen ), he'd end up voting on Kappy and arguing with him instead.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of all this. I'm not gonna unvote Kappy just to vote for Karnos at the moment, mainly because I want more opinions(from replacements and soon to be replacements) on the whole Karnos thing as well as their general viewpoint on the thread so far. However, this could change.

Overall, Karnos' wishy washy style of play compared to his last game does make me suspicious of him. So, for now,

FoS: Karnos

.

[Saru]

It's a learned behavior, followed by realization that it's all a lot of BS anyway. I'm sure if you look at all my prior games in order, you would notice some evolution in my play-style. You should also notice something in common among all my town games- I am initially scum read in almost every game, before eventually coming through without getting lynched. I have not been lynched in any game thus far, yet every game seems to start with a wagon on me.

....

My play has evolved from this. My early games I attracted a lot of negative attention early on, and so I tried to play more carefully at the start of this game. Obviously its not working out too well.

Overall, Karnos' wishy washy style of play compared to his last game does make me suspicious of him.

My last full game was my scum game- you are reading me as scum because I'm not playing the way I play as scum?

Or are you talking about Open 640 - Mod Abandoned? That was an interesting game, the majority of it was extremely polarized between GreyICE and me, until things just broke on day two because of mod miscommunication.

Sorry, didn't mean to say last game. I was talking about the one I looked at, which was your second newbie game, Newbie 1700.

Anyways, taking a quick gander at your newbie games where you're town, you seem so confident. Macho and all. You even say yourself that in your first one, you were eager to lynch.

However, I noticed something big from your only scum game. I want everyone to go look at post 43 from Open 638, the game where Karnos is mafia. That post there rings eerily similar to the one Karnos made in this game about not wanting to lynch someone. Different reasons, with the Open one being cause you were scared to "push a lynch onto a nice townie" and this one being because "I don't wanna be implicated." Reasons are different, but not by much. On top of that, both were backpedals on their respective lynches. Think about it. If as town, your so eager to lynch, then in this game you can clearly see why people think your scum. Your unvoting ability is pretty low when your town from what I've seen. However, when your scum, you tend to unvote and just generally backpedal a lot more.

Another big thing I saw in Open 638 is post 44 where you vote someone because they were hiding or in others words, lurking. Sounds similar to what you did when you voted for Dierfire in RVS, but then tried to justify it with the excuse that he was lurking.

I'm calling total BS on "my play has evolved." Like Mecha said, don't self-meta. Your play in your town games have all stayed the same. 3 town games and only now it's different? What's the chances? Your play in your only mafia game lines up with your play in this game fairly well, so far. I don't see much evolution happening here to be honest. And as Qubixes pointed out, it doesn't seem like a coincidence that you changed your tone in this game as soon as he pointed out how your tone early on in the game was very different from your town meta. It seems like you're trying to cover up.

I'm not usually one to go off of meta analysis this much, or really at all, but I have a feeling with Karnos, it's pretty damn revealing. And, Karnos, if you feel I took a quote totally out of context in this post, feel free to point that out and provide some context. I will admit that I didn't really look at the games as a whole, mostly the ISOs.

[Saru]

Saru, while for the most part I agree with your meta analysis, the "worried about lurkers" thing came up before, and Karnos responded in post 198. Not sure if you've seen it or not, but better safe than sorry.

Yeah I saw it before but it slipped my mind.

[Saru]

Hey Johnny!

Is that Rap Monster in your avatar!!?? LMFAO

[Saru]

lol really? Zico? We have a crazy K-Pop addict on our hands here.

Also, I can't wait to be more knowledgeable.

[Saru]

Me too.

[Saru]

I can't really think of a town leader at the moment. If I had to pick someone I felt contributed some good stuff throughout the thread, I might pick Persivul. But no leader overall. Your slot was played by a 14 year old who seemed to side with Sick(now Wingback) against Persivul before the replacement. Not that much suspicion on your slot from what I see at the moment. Keep reading and you might feel the same.

[Saru]

Damn boi, how about a spoiler next time? >.>

[Saru]

I don't really disagree but I do think we should wait until a replacement for Snork is found and see what they have to say about all this. I'd feel comfortable going in to the flip with everyone's thoughts put out in regards to the lynch.

[Saru]

I have to say, I agree with Wingback when he says that it feels like MathBlade is trying to push an agenda by trying to tie anyone who defends Karnos to him as a scum partner. That just seems too simplistic. The agenda itself doesn't feel scummy, mostly misguided. For what it's worth, I don't have any intent to hammer. After my meta analysis on Karnos, I was feeling pretty strong about him flipping scum, but those who came to his defense(mainly Wingback) have put up some good points. Not great, but good enough to prevent me from voting.

Essentially, I'm more or less neutral with Karnos at this point. Both sides seem to be making decent arguments to support their agendas. That being said, I might need to go back and reread the past couple of pages to truly understand the issue at hand and then make an informed decision.

[Saru]

@Saru -- Really? How the hell do you explain some of Karnos's posts coming from a townie? The defenses seem like stretches to say the least. I am going to reread after work and see if the Wingback part was sleep deprivation but Karnos's post. Explain to me how a townie has some of the posts I have cited. Pretty much anyone not voting Karnos I want an explanation from because that shit doesn't fly. It is the entire context of Karnos's posts that are bad.

Not sure what you mean by me explaining how Karnos' posts come from a townie. I never said at any point that Karnos was a townie. I'm not voting for Karnos because I'm too unsure at the moment(that and because it's now L-1), not because I think he's town. Not sure how you came up with that. On top of that, my issue with you was mainly with you tying people to Karnos as scum if they ended up defending him. I see their defense as more cautionary than anything else. I don't look at it as they're defending their scum partner, but simply that they want to stop what they feel is a mislynch. Especially given that it's only D1, and that just seems too convenient that both scum are defending their scum partner. You can argue that their defense of Karnos is a stretch, sure, but I feel that those accusing Karnos are also kind of stretching because they seem to be going off of pure meta analysis. Or at-least that's how this started.

And I know what you might say, that it's not about meta analysis anymore, it's more about his recent play. And has Karnos' recent play been scummy? Sure. Especially with that really shitty push onto Mecha after the reads list. I even pointed this out. But I also feel that it's a side effect of him scrambling up a defense as fast as he can. I'd be damned if I didn't admit that I've had moments where I was town trying to hastily defend myself from a lynch and freaking out and not thinking about what I'm really trying to say, only causing me to dig a deeper hole for myself, just like it looks like Karnos is doing. On the other hand, I might be giving Karnos the benefit of the doubt.

At this point, I might just wait for a Karnos claim before I choose to do anything further.

P-edit: I have to agree with Karnos here that if Karnos is town, scum are on both sides of the argument here. I've been thinking about that for a while now.

[Saru]

I might state intent dependent on what The Bulge and species' replacement have to say about all this. If they choose to view Karnos as town, I will state intent. If they don't, I expect one of them to do it.

[Saru]

Well then, after work, carve out some time to go through the thread and post your thoughts. You couldn't be bothered to read the game for around five days now and you can't have been working 24/7. If you were so busy that you can't find any time at all, you shouldn't have replaced into the game.

This. So much.

[Saru]

@Magna: Can you elaborate a bit on your Saru town read?

I was town reading him somewhere in the middle, but I'm doubting that read again. His voting pattern looks really quite bad imo. He has jumped on three wagons that were already formed: sick, persivul, kappy. Then he calls out Karnos for being scummy, but doesn't vote.

Yes, I called Karnos scummy

initially

, but if you read through my ISO, I started to be more conflicted on my read of him as the arguments went on between Karnos and others. Eventually, I said I was neutral. I see no point in voting a neutral read when I already had my vote on someone I felt was genuinely scummier, which was Kappy.

And about being on wagons, instead of looking at me jumping onto wagons, it'd be better if you looked at the reasoning/motivation behind why I chose to vote who I have throughout the game so far. Reasoning for all my votes can be found in their respective posts, but if you need a summary for each, I'd be more than glad to provide you with one.

[Saru]

I'm more worried about the timing of the votes/cases. It seems a bit delayed from what is going on. Maybe that is slightly unfair in the case of the sick wagon, because that was his first post.

But I feel that so far he hasn't been exploring many new directions, just grinding out the ones that were already there.

The Persivul attack felt over the top to me. I agree that his reasoning has been solid as far as I can see. I'll look at the wide net casting at some point.

Not entirely true. While you can argue that I was "grinding" out the Persivul vote, the reason for that vote was pretty much the same as it was for Sick. Reaction testing. The attack on Persivul itself was due to a misunderstanding on my part about the whole question and answer thing, which Mecha cleared up for me, and then which caused my subsequent unvote.

And personally, I felt that my vote on Kappy

was

exploring a new direction. At-least, in the sense that my vote came from, what I felt, was an

original

case that I made about him for his terrible Sick vs. Persivul post. That is 237. On top of that, didn't like that it felt he was dodging mine and other peoples' questions. Even now, I don't like that he first did little to no posting/contributing in Kansas, and now he is just V/LA even past the end of Day 1. We need to seriously look at that, at some point.

Lastly, for what it's worth, I like that you are pushing on your feeling about me not being a top town read for you while most others do. It makes me town read you because you're willing to stand out a lot more by doing so, which just seems like a risky thing for scum to do.

[Saru]

One of Wingback or karnos is scum. No doubt in my mind. Possibly both.

I disagree pretty hard with this. Karnos is a claimed weird cop, and I don't think "newbie scum" would pull that out of his ass.

IIRC, scum can talk in PT even in the daytime. He doesn't have to be some expert scum player to make a "weird" claim. His partners could easily make that up for him. Just a thought.

[Saru]

Ok, so, looking back on all the walls and whatnot of the last 3 pages, I guess I can sum it up(atleast for myself) as:
Math thinks that Johnny is not scum and sees the wagon as scum filled. Hates Magna with a passion. Points to Karnos putting out some crumb about being vengeful, but I think Mecha makes a good point about how that's probably not the case. I don't read it as a crumb myself anyways.
Magna seems pretty convinced that Johnny is scum. Hates Math with a passion.

Anyways, I personally don't believe that Johnny is scum or even really all that scummy tbh. Most of what he's done has played to his meta in other games, only with less content. I read him as lazy/anti-town. Not scummy, but anti-town nonetheless. His laziness and just general lack of contribution annoys me to no end(look at my vote on Kappy >.>) and honestly, at this point, as much as I hate it, I'd be fine with a policy lynch. I just don't see Johnny helping town in any real form down the line. On top of that, I just don't see any real case for a lynch on anyone else(at the moment) and find it hard to see another wagon forming on someone else even if a case was made on them. Too much time would be taken up by useless back and forth walls as the last few pages have shown.

With that being said:
UNVOTE: Kappy
VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

Now at L-1.

[Saru]

It seems like most people on the wagon don't like that Johnny is just so apathetic to the game, myself included. Some people have pointed out how he started being a bit more active as soon as the wagon formed on him. I personally don't see anything too incriminating in Johnny's ISO or just his general play. That might also just be a result of not having that much to go off of.

I wouldn't mind if you hammered him, because I really don't think he's gonna put up a real defense besides "meh" or something silly and this game needs to leave D1 already because it seems to be going nowhere, fast.

[Saru]

Yes, it pretty much is a policy lynch. Would also like something more substantial, but my eye is also on the deadline.

I don't think that him being friendly in the beginning of the game when he replaces is really anything of concern. Seemed pretty genuine regardless of alignment.

[Saru]

@Saru and Persivul

, you were both very active at the beginning of the game. Is there a reason that you have slowly become less and less active? This goes especially for Persivul since he seems fairly active elsewhere, but also Saru whose seems to be following the thread and responding to posts directed at him or to hop onto a wagon but nowhere near the same level of engagement as before. @Saru, if you are unhappy with the lynch on Johnny and are equating it with a policy-lynch that you are only on because of the deadline, why didn't you try to influence the game over the past few days by pushing it in a direction you liked? Do you have any actual scum reads?

To answer your activity question: yes, I was active in the game early on mainly because I felt like putting my reads out there and then the whole thing with Persivul and eventually Mecha. After that, I started feeling mixed on the whole Karnos wagon and put some of that in my posts and whatnot. After that, my activity dropped. This is mainly due to not having to really respond to any questions(such as yours) and having some trouble following the whole fight between Math/Magna/Masq. This will explain my lack of scum reads(more on that in a moment). I felt like posting something similar to what Mecha did in 849, basically trying to tell people to focus on who to actually lynch rather than just having a crazy wall-filled back and forth due to the deadline, but then Mecha pretty much did it. It doesn't seem like it's had much effect anyways.

As for Johnny, yes I don't like the lynch on him and do think it is policy. I am unhappy with it, but at the same time, I guess I did play a part in that by choosing not to influence the game in a different direction while Johnny was being voted upon. And now I feel like most people aren't going to unvote Johnny at this point. However, the reason why I haven't tried to influence the game recently is because my biggest scum read up to now has been Kappy. If you look at my ISO, my scum reads progressed something like this: Sick -> Persivul -> Kappy. Karnos is not someone I'd put in that list because I stayed neutral on him after reading him as scummy. Anyways, so as Kappy was my biggest scum read, I didn't really see the point of trying to influence people to vote for him as that's a long shot and also because he's V/LA, which, while I hate it, real life does come in the way. I'd much rather Kappy come back and defend himself if a wagon ever did form on him(going back to my hammer/defense point in 256) rather than just try to get people to finish him off while he was gone. This is in stark contrast to Johnny who seems to not really care about whether he's about to be lynched or not. Yes, he does ask if anyone has questions of him, but that seems forced. Similar to Kappy in 389. I'd much rather see him contribute by putting out actual scum reads instead of making the excuse that he's only good at town reads. I just don't see Johnny coming in and trying to legitimately defend himself against the lynch whereas Kappy has shown(imo) that he is atleast capable of that. That's why I don't really care if someone hammers right now. I wouldn't say the same if it were Kappy.

As for my scum reads right now, I don't have any real strong ones. This is mainly due to not having a perfect grasp on the last couple of pages as explained above. Although, I do feel like most of the last couple of pages haven't really done much to move the game along. While it could be good stuff to look back on for reference in D2, D3, etc., as it stands right now, I feel like they were mostly a waste of time.

If I had to point out something I felt was suspicious, it would definitely be the Johnny wagon. That whole thing just seems so wrong. Too fast with too little reasoning, especially after the Karnos wagon disbanded. I understand why some town might vote him, due to frustration over the deadline and his lack of defense, but it also seems so easy for the mafia to just jump onto and run away with. Which reminds me of 380 by qubixes who said that scum might get caught lazily hopping onto a wagon. That seems ironic as qubixes unvoted Karnos and then lazily hopped onto the Johnny wagon with the shitty excuse that "I reread the post again...it actually doesn't look so good after all." This is 754. Hilariously enough, he says in 747 that he doesn't feel strong on anyone besides Karnos. His unvote on Karnos didn't seem all too suspect, but his vote on Johnny seems so fucking sheep. Lazy. One could almost say....scummy.

So there you have it, no strong scum reads, but qubixes' vote on Johnny seemed scummy. Using his own logic too.

[Saru]

@Saru: So you don't like the Johnny wagon and think I'm scummy. Yet, you say you don't care if someone hammers?

I was talking about post-flip associations in 380. But you already know Johnny will flip town, maybe? As I said, lazily hopping on another wagon only makes sense (is AI) if I'm scum hopping onto a town wagon. You're also aware that if you apply the same logic to yourself, you're also scum?

And yes, I didn't feel very strong about anyone really. Even on Johnny I didn't feel strong (because of gut read). So what? Finding more than one scum on Day 1 is hard, period.

Actually

UNVOTE: Johnny
VOTE: Saru

I don't really see the point of pushing you too much to be honest. Because it feels like a wasted effort when you're town read by almost everyone (afaik), and it's also too close to the deadline.

LMFAO, this post is all kinds of wrong.

First off, this is quite a

strong

reaction to me just calling a single vote of yours scummy. I didn't even say you were some confscum or something. If you're really going to vote me due to me finding a single thing of you scummy and pushing on it

slightly

, that just shows how your overreacting. Too funny.

Also, nice vote of me and then unvote. Oh, so dramatic. The theatrics of it all. I love it.

And as to your point about not caring if someone hammers: good job showing you don't care to read. But no matter, I'll explain in another way, if I really have to. I don't like the Johnny wagon because I felt it was too fast and convenient. I make this point in my previous post. Your vote on him is scummy because your reason for voting him is absolute garbage. Other people on the Johnny wagon had fine reasons, not the best, but well enough to understand why they might do it. Your vote comes after you conveniently hop off the Karnos wagon when it disbanded, keeping in mind you were its champion. I'm calling total bullshit on you not feeling "strong" on Karnos as you were pretty much 100% sure he was scum no matter what, even after the claim, arguing for a scum neapolitan. Anyone reading your ISO from the Karnos vote to the Karnos unvote can easily see how you have extremely strong feelings for a scum!Karnos. Don't try to play the "gut" card here. It's too obvious.

And no, applying that logic to myself doesn't make me scum. My vote on Johnny is not me "lazily" hopping on as I point out that I think he's town even when I vote him. That's a policy lynch. No two ways about it. Scum don't vote someone right after they profess they think that person is town and just hope no one notices or something. Reason for a vote is important. And seeing as Johnny has been hammered by Masquerade who points out that he doesn't want to have to look for a lynch in the last hour of the game, I think it's safe to say that my point about frustration over the twice extended deadline has its merit. Persivul is another good example of frustration in 866.

[Saru]

@Saru: The gut read I was talking about was a "town gut read" on Johnny, which is why I was conflicted about his slot. Given the way the lynch went down in the end, I'm a little less conflicted right now.

Obviously I'm not just having a gut read on Karnos, that's ridiculous.

Policy lynches are pretty lazy imo. And if you don't like the wagon, why not do something about it. Because basically ever since the Persivul argument, you have been sitting back. You voted Kappy for reasons already stated before, sure. But that was 10 days before the original deadline, so this frustration about the deadline feels rather weak, unless you think deadlines should be 5 days? You have just been popping in when someone asks you something or it is about you, which makes perfect sense if you're scum and feeling you're being universally town read.

And don't make it appear like it came out of totally nowhere. My questions to MoI made it obviously clear that I had some reservations at least towards your slot. But at least you got a good laugh, right?

The bolded part is literally all answered in 895. I guess I was right that you didn't read. Thanks for proving that.

And you said you didn't feel

very strong

about anyone. Are you seriously going to tell me you didn't feel strong on Karnos? Because "anyone" implies everyone, obviously.

And yes, I understand you have reservations about my slot. That's fine. My point is that your vote and unvote of me just serves as theatrics, more or less. Like, "hey guys look I'm

clearly

frustrated at Saru for his posting and I want to make sure everyone knows!"

With that being said, where do I stand in your reads? Am I getting scummier for you by the minute or something? I'm curious.

[Saru]

Except you were already sitting back before that point? Your response was rather lackluster. Sounds like a poor excuse to be sitting back, especially considering you were already sitting back when the Mecha/Math/Magna thing happened.

What exactly was I sitting back on anyways? I've commented on the major wagons and what I felt about them with my own reasoning and then placing my vote or unvote. If I was sitting back as scum who was happy to be universally town read, I would never make posts like this: 383 438 where I leave myself open to being criticized. Scum who are universally town read don't try to drawn attention to themselves. Is this really what you think I was doing? Just seems like your trying to come up for an excuse because you can't find anything else on me. The reach is real. Your whole read on me seems to be that I was "sitting back." If you feel I'm scummy for that, then the majority of the players in the game would have had to be scummy for you seeing as we had a whole ton of replacements that came about because people were inactive at some point or another. I'd rather "sit back" and see how things unfold and then make my own decisions rather than lazily hop onto a wagon like you.

You're splitting hairs here. I think it's obvious to anyone that reads even half my posts that I feel strongly about Karnos being scum. "anyone" -> "anyone but Karnos". Whatever. You think that's scummy? How?

No, just feels like a lapse in thought. You say "anyone but Karnos" first and then "anyone" which sounded like Karnos didn't seem all that scummy to you anymore. Not sure how you expected me to see that another way. I'm sure you would do the same if I did that, seeing as you love to point out petty things such as "sitting back."

I was planning to keep my vote on you, but realized it wasn't going to do anything. I left it in there, yes. Currently I feel the most likely scum team is Karnos/Saru/Dierfire, in that order. So yes, I was trying to show how I read the game at that point. Was it slightly theatrical? Sure, why not. But I don't think it's scummy.

This makes me town read you because you stick to your thought/voting pattern as indicated in your ISO. Good job.

You're not improving on my list, if that's what you're asking. It's kind of pointless at this point though. I would like to see the flip and have a thorough read through your ISO, but that can wait for Tomorrow. And no, you're not dead stone scum to me, especially with no flips.

Have fun.

Responses in

bold.

Currently town read you(pretty much have the entire time) but just feel you're misguided as fuck.

[Saru]

I did town read you for 438 actually. The things before and after are what makes me scum read you. Don't understand why you're trying to needle me while having a town read. Anyway, this is going nowhere for now, so I'll leave it for tomorrow.

Ah, ok, I got it. So you admit that you town read me for the only post in the game where I agree with you. But then you scum read me for all the other posts where I'm pretty much on opposite sides of you on votes/wagons. Got it. Will keep that in mind for tomorrow. Let me just make a mental note.

Note: qubixes loves to conf-bias.

[Saru]

VOTE: qubixes

Oh look, I can randomly vote too!

[Saru]

Except my vote isn't random? (And I doubt Firebringer's is.)

You're right. It isn't. It's frustration that I caught you out on your shitty vote on Johnny. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Saru]

Anyways, what happened to your vote on Dierfire? You seemed hesitant to vote me D1 because I was being town read by most people. You felt you couldn't push a lynch on me because of that. 898.

Do you think that all of a sudden that has changed, despite no evidence? Do you now suddenly think that Dierfire would be harder to lynch?

Careful, your own voting pattern is getting shifty. Wasn't that one of the reasons you questioned my slot?

[Saru]

We have two weeks now, instead of two days. I might vote Dierfire at some point, depending on what will happen.

And no, that wasn't the reason I thought your voting pattern looked suspicious. Not sure why I should be careful. Do you think I'm a good lynch candidate?

I didn't ask you when you were going to vote Dierfire. I asked you what made you change your vote from him to me over this night? The length of D2 can't be the reason you switch your vote to me given that you say you won't vote me on D1 because it'd be hard to push a lynch on me seeing as I was being town read. So that's a non-answer. But good try. +2 for effort.

Also, even if having 2 days left(plenty of time by the way, you even admit to that in 900)

was

a reason not to push a lynch for someone, then why even bother voting Dierfire in the first place? Why didn't you just keep your vote on Johnny before I called you out on it? Or better yet, why even try to vote anyone at all? Why not wait until D2 to put out your vote?

Also, I didn't ask

why

you thought my voting pattern looked suspicious. I asked if my voting pattern was one of the reasons you questioned my slot in the first place. Once again, non-answer. Don't worry, I found the answer for you: 743. You're welcome.

As for your question, yes, I think you're a good lynch candidate. Your responses to my questions have been lackluster and most importantly, contradictory. Very different from D1. You don't seem to do well under pressure.

[Saru]

@Saru: I don't feel your questions are honest, so I don't feel compelled to answer them in an elaborate way. At least not right now.

In other words, you're nervous that you might slip up. Got it.

[Saru]

@Saru: So impatient. If I was nervous I would have answered your questions.

Impatient? Interesting. So what should I be patient about then? If you can't answer Mathblade's question because of the excuse you gave, then what is it that is stopping you from answering mine? The level of "honesty" in my questions shouldn't prevent you from giving an honest answer if you're town. A delayed answer is usually dishonest.

I understand, you have to talk it over with your scum buddies. Take your time.

[Saru]

Your apparent lack of honesty doesn't prevent me from answering your questions, that much is true. It doesn't compel me either though. If you want your questions so badly,

why didn't you engage seriously with me at the end of Day 1?

What do you think 917 920 923 925 were all about?

If you're not compelled, then there must be a reason for this. I've already pointed out how the "honesty" of my questions can't be the reason, and you've affirmed that. So, I must ask, why aren't you compelled to answer my questions?

[Saru]

You were being a jerk (e.g "Have fun") yesterday. You threw some accusation my way, and you defended yourself. I don't think that is engaging me seriously, but maybe I should have said constructively. I was planning on ignoring you for a bit today, but I got curious how you would react to my behavior. I will get to your questions surrounding the Johnny lynch tonight when I have some more time, because I looks like others have some doubt about it too.

lol how is that "being a jerk." It was referring to you saying that you would look over my ISO. I'm sure it's fun to scum-hunt, no? If not, why play mafia? It's a game, stop getting emotional.

So me calling out things that I find suspicious and defending myself against accusations from others isn't being serious? You do understand that it's the whole purpose of this game, right? Serious question.

[Saru]

I didn't think 2 days was enough to lynch you, and it would have been a waste of effort/time. Dierfire seemed like the next best possibility for scum, and Wingback (who I had a town read on) made a case on Dierfire which I thought was pretty good. Since you jumped on the Johnny wagon, it seemed like the best wagon to push. Obviously, when I think the main wagon might be town, I shouldn't be just waiting for Day 2 to make my vote. I don't know why you would suggest that.

You can't have it both ways. If you thought that 2 days wasn't enough to push a lynch on me, then why even try to push a lynch on anyone at that point? Why not stay with your Johnny vote? The excuse that you "gut" read Johnny as town and that is why you unvoted is beyond weak. The unvote timing was way too coincidental seeing as we were nearing his lynch and I had pointed out how you looked suspect for even voting him. By the way, Wingback's case on Dierfire wasn't the fucking nail in his coffin. It was a good case, yes, but it didn't mean that he was all of sudden going to be the perfect lynch candidate in 2 days time. It wasn't like the majority of the town was scum reading him like crazy before or even after that case. Plus, even if some people did scum read him, you'd have to assume that people would be readily willing to jump off the Johnny wagon at the last second to lynch Dierfire. Looking back on it, that obviously wasn't going to happen. You could even argue that 2 days was more than enough time to see Dierfire slip up and then you could convince town to push a lynch on him. But if that were the case, the same would apply to me. I wasn't some angel to the town. Some people did have their doubts about me near the end of D1. The end of Wingback's 894 is proof of that. The amount of effort needed to push a lynch on me vs. Dierfire wasn't really all that different seeing as both of us were at a whopping 0 votes when Wingback made the case on Dierfire. What was stopping you from making a similar case on me? Even if you weren't going to vote me, making the case going into D2 wouldn't have hurt. Instead, you gave some theatrical little performance in 898.

I don't know what your point is about the voting pattern. You seemed to imply (again) that I was scummy because of my votes were shifty, and that I accused you of the same. I didn't accuse your votes of being shifty, I accused your timing to be suspicious, i.e. delayed. So I answered it briefly, but correctly, no.

Then in this case, couldn't I just argue that your jump off the Johnny wagon was too "delayed" to be town? Don't you see how this "delayed" argument you're using is weak as fuck? You just seem to love nit-picking other people's actions, but hate it when it happens to you.

I don't have any need for advice such as "stop getting emotional". Don't worry, I don't miss any sleep over it. Doesn't mean you're not acting like a jerk. It's even fine if you're scum to be honest. Undermining someone's credibility is a totally valid strategy. Because that is what you are doing. And it is scummy as fuck. (Not misguided as fuck.)

More emotion. When someone catches you making a mistake, that doesn't make them a jerk. But as scum, I can see how you might feel that.

Responses in

bold.

[Saru]

After I gave up my Karnos quest, I didn't really know what to do. And Saru (and you IIRC) was right that the thread was a bit of a pain to read. I tried to get some interaction with Magna (about Saru) to get more into the game.

I just have to point out how funny it is for you to accuse me of "sitting back" and how it's scummy, but then you admit to doing the same exact thing for the same exact reason.

[Saru]

@Saru:

Thanks for pointing out I have emotions, mr. Robot, really helpful.

No problem!

And jumping off Johnny's wagon is like the opposite of delayed. The Johnny wagon wasn't evaporating, so my hop off wasn't "delayed". If you want to find examples in my ISO, my hop off Karnos' wagon could be seen as delayed (though imo a bit too delayed), and my hop on Johnny's wagon was slightly late, but much less so than yours and Karnos's. Obviously, town is sometimes going to be delayed, and scum is sometimes going to be first. However, when it becomes a pattern, then yes, I think it is an indication. And I have seen it catch scum as well, so call it "nit-picking" or "weak as fuck", whatever.

I was talking about how delayed your jumping off was compared to the hammer. You jumped off like a page before it, for terrible reasons. And yes, your hop off the Karnos wagon was also really really delayed. Oh, hey, guess what, I'm seeing a pattern here! OMG! YOU'RE SCUM! LYNCH HIM! NOW! /sarcasm

[Saru]

Notice how I've used two arguments that you've used against me to prove I'm scum, against you. The "sitting back" and the so-called "pattern." Maybe now you can see my perspective on your terrible arguments.

[Saru]

@qubixes If you think that Karnos, Masquerade, and myself are most likely to flip scum, what happened to Dierfire? Where does he stand for you right now?

[Saru]

@Saru:

How was I supposed to know that he would be hammered a page later? That's like the opposite of delayed?

lol what? When you unvoted him, he was at L-1 with Karnos giving the intent to hammer in the post right before your unvote post. How did you not think he would be hammered when someone gives the intent clearly? Seriously?

Also, if you want to compare the sitting back, I'm afraid you're going to come out worse than me unfortunately (kind of stupid to compare it to myself, but since that's what you're doing, I'll follow suit):

between 438 and 868, you're sitting back expect for when I tried to prod Magna about his town read on you, and you defended yourself. I would argue that I tried to do a whole lot more in that period. (Just dual-ISO us.) Do you really want me to make lists here?

You seem to totally miss the point of me comparing myself to you when it comes to "sitting back." It's to show that "sitting back" is an extremely shitty argument to use in this scenario. Both town and scum sit back for different reasons. You're obviously town, right? So if I admitted to sitting back for the same reason(895) you did(because it was getting hard to read/understand the thread), then I should be town, no? Why does the length matter in this case? Stop being superficial and look at motivation.

I might do a comprehensible case on you at some point, but right now I don't feel like I'll be listened to anyway, so that would be kind of disappointing.

So if a case at this point wouldn't persuade anyone to vote me right now, why are you even bothering to vote me at this very moment? Couldn't your vote be better served elsewhere, where perhaps people might listen to you? I can only assume this vote is still part of that theatrical frustration you showed earlier in D1 towards me. I'm pretty sure you don't even think I'm scum at this point. It seems you're just pushing me because you're mad that I'm being a so-called "jerk." We know how much you love to conf-bias, as I've pointed out. So that makes sense.

[Saru]

@Saru: I had already written up most of my post when I saw the intent to hammer. And I mean after my unvote, why would I be so sure that he would be lynched? He was then at L-1 without intent. I tried to prevent a lynch from happening. If you say I was too late in the realization that I should prevent it, you're right. That's not what I mean by being "delayed". What I mean by "delayed" is compared to what the rest of town is doing. The rest of town seemed to be heading in the direction of lynching Johnny, and I was not. Different direction => not "delayed".

I am putting my vote where I think we'll find scum. There is no reason for strategic votes at this point in time. And I'm pretty sure you're scum, not because I'm mad at your behavior. But I do think that behavior was part of your agenda.

/sigh You're missing the point of the whole "delayed" thing. Doesn't seem like it's worth arguing that with you, as it seems my purpose of pointing that out has clearly gone over your head anyways.

Anyways, I'm done arguing with you. I feel confident you're scum at this point. I think anyone reading the back and forth between us can clearly see why. Hopefully you'll get over being mad at me and start to look at things deeper.

[Saru]

By the way, I just noticed that Kappy said he'd be back from V/LA on June 24th. Its been 4 days. Hopefully hes been prodded.

[Saru]

Saru: I'm beginning to reevaluate my qubixes read. From 754 onwards, he does seem to be fitting the general pattern of "apathetic townie"; even when defending himself or pushing you, he seems somehow disengaged. I could mark his conflict with you down as latching on to whatever avenues he can take to contribute; that said, I can't follow the flow of the argument at all, and somehow I feel that there's something in there I'm missing. If you could give a general overview of it from your perspective, that'd be really helpful.
Going to UNVOTE: qubixes for now.

My general overview of qubixes as of right now is that he's horribly misguided townie. Honestly, my read of him has been like a roller-coaster, and I was finding it hard to pin down whether he was just misguided townie or silly scum. Some posts would lean one way and some posts the other. After looking back at the entire back and forth between us starting from the end of D1 up until now, I'm going to stick with my misguided townie read of him. He just seems to be trying too hard to prove his "worth" to the town. Nothing wrong with that. Most novice players who are town tend to play this way to feel like they've done a lot for the town. Unfortunately, as in qubixes' case, it can work against them.

Take his "delayed" argument against me for example. He pretty much is arguing that because I was "delayed" onto most of the wagons(which is the wrong word to use, by the way), that it seems to be a pattern of me jumping onto wagons late which is scummy. This makes no sense as the only "wagons" I was "jumping" onto were the Sick and Persivul ones at the very very start of the game. I've already pointed out that both were for reaction testing. He would have to prove that I wasn't reaction testing to point how that my votes on them were scummy. Reaction testing in the start of the game seemed to be the only thing that made sense to me, as it helped me develop reads of those two specific individuals who were being suspected the most. I came out of all of that with the conclusions that Sick felt like frustrated town to me, and that Persivul was null for me.

There are three major things wrong with the "delayed" argument. For one thing, when I voted Sick and Persivul, they weren't really wagons at the time. They were in no real danger of being lynched when I voted them. It'd be silly of scum to jump onto a wagon that didn't have much support behind it. Secondly, when I did vote them, I gave very

clear-cut

reasons as to why I was voting them. I presented my reads of the entire roster and gave reasons for them. Keep in mind, these were ALONGSIDE my votes. Notice how my votes were on the people I was scum-reading(reaction testing). And lastly, and my

biggest issue

(seriously don't ignore this), with him saying that I was just "delay" hopping onto wagons, is that

I NEVER VOTED KARNOS

. Keep that in mind. Because, if you look at it, out of the

entire thread

so far, the Karnos wagon was one of the

biggest ones

. The perfect one for scum to jump on without being noticed. The one that had pretty much all the support in the world save for Mathblade. Even Wingback eventually started suspecting him after vehemently defending him. What in the world makes qubixes think that as scum who apparently

loves

to delay wagon hop, I would not ever vote Karnos. Talk about the fucking jackpot when it comes to something like that. His wagon would have been the

perfect

one for me to join if I was doing what qubixes claims I was. Instead, I gave clear-cut reasoning as to why I stayed neutral on him. Keep in mind that qubixes literally admits to conf-biasing by saying he only town-read me for initially supporting his Karnos vote, but then scum reads me for everything before and after, when I was pretty much opposite of him on most things. 'Tis a sad mafia world we live in.

I was trying to show him how his arguments against me can be easily applied to what he's been doing too, but he didn't seem to get that. Actually, most of his arguments are generic as fuck. I could easily apply them to just about anyone in most mafia games. It's not uncommon for town to delay their vote on someone who's being pushed hard by everybody else. I'm not a fucking sheep. I look at all the arguments being presented and come up with my own conclusion, as I've said before. I have to take into account that a wagon could be started by scum. Among a host of other things. And as for the sitting back thing, like...

come on

. That is such a nit-pick it's not even funny. It doesn't even matter because he admits to sitting back for the same reason I did as-well. So by his own logic, I'm town. So I see no reason I have to argue that any further.

I'm not sure what you mean by apathetic town. He seems to be pretty engaged to me, regardless of the content of those engagements being god awful.

I'm not going to unvote him only because I'm curious to see what he will say to all this.

[Saru]

EBWOP: Take out "Mathblade" in that third paragraph and replace it with "Wingback." My bad.

[Saru]

@Saru: 1086 was a very good argument as to why qubixes' scumread of you is wrong. I appreciate that. However, what I was looking for was more, from your perspective, what was the progression of qubixes' read on you? What parts of his argument was he most invested in? When did he start backing off? When did you feel he was putting you under the most pressure?
Having an "inside look" at that sort of thing would be really important to me evaluating his conflict with you, specifically figuring out if it was the primary read he had that he latched onto or something he was pushing in order to avoid not pushing anything. That's the primary thing that would separate "probably apathetic town" from "maybe apathetic scum."

Ah, ok, now I understand what you mean. Well basically his recent read of me stems from 380 where he's friendly to me and gives me a little wink about how scum could be caught lazily hopping onto the Karnos wagon. This is important, because at this point, he town reads me for agreeing with his case on Karnos. Also because this reasoning of scum lazily hopping onto wagons is exactly what he accuses me of, but I accuse him of too. My accusation of him is more to show how his own argument is crap and can be easily used against anyone who "lazily" hops onto a wagon. Anyways, so he town reads me for agreeing that Karnos looks scummy(924) but then, he starts to question me by asking Magna why Magna was town reading me, as my voting pattern looked suspicious. Personally, I think he got annoyed at the fact that I was really the only person(besides Wingback, who eventually ends us suspecting Karnos anyways) that didn't push Karnos hard and I stayed neutral on him(which I provided my reasons for in 587). His 743 suggests this because he seems to suspect me of not voting Karnos(the biggest fucking wagon in the game) when I called Karnos suspicious. This obviously ignores my neutral read of him that I pointed out before his 743. That suggests to me that he pretty much hated anyone that didn't support his Karnos vote. It irked him to no end. He even admits to that. Regardless of whether he found them suspicious, people who didn't vote Karnos, he wasn't fond of. His town read of Wingback suggests that he's not equally applying his reading method to all players though. Hence, the conf-bias. He town reads Wingback, despite the defense of Karnos, but scum reads me, given that I said I was neutral on Karnos, but never really defend him.

This is where the conf-bias starts to take a life of it's own. Look at the end of my 895 where I call out qubixes' vote on Johnny as scummy. Keep in mind, I was calling the

vote

scummy, not the person. Because even up to that point, I had a weak town read of him, so it wasn't a

big deal

. The person performing the action is just as important as the action itself. But he made my scummy read of his vote a

huge deal

in his reply to me in 898. At this point, is when I think his read of me changed to pretty much solid scum. However, keep in mind, that he still votes Dierfire because he feels that I'm some unlynchable angel(which wasn't true). So I found it

REALLY

strange how he chose to vote me outright in D2, given that he felt Dierfire was just simply a better vote overall, regardless of the deadline. That suggests to me that over N1, he let his conf-bias of me being a "jerk" to him get the best of his read. I personally feel that he doesn't really think I'm some 100% scum, but he can't help but say that because he's angry. He uses the excuse that being a "jerk" is apparently a valid scum strategy, but he ends up contradicting himself here.

Think about it.

He points to me being some stealthy scum who loves to subtly hop wagons(which has been disproved anyways) but also I'm a scum who loves to use asshole tactics to his advantage. Don't you think that by being an asshole, I would get called out for it(notice how no one has) and I would be drawing a butt load of attention to myself? So how am I sneaky scum who subtly hops wagons and sits back, but then I'm also some crazy scum who loves to be an asshole to people? Being an asshole will get you nowhere. Regardless of your alignment. His scum profile of me contradicts itself.

As for pressure, I haven't felt any real pressure from him. Like I said, he has terrible arguments. I don't worry myself over someone who can't come up with coherent and non-contradictory arguments. I like to point it out to help them, but after that, the rest is up to them. He seems to be most invested in his "sitting back" and "delayed" arguments. Those are like his babies. He holds onto them, hard. But I've already shown why those arguments are contradictory to his scum profile of me and just plain bad in general.

I had a much longer post than this, but I decided to cut it down to really the main points of his read on me. Hopefully this answers your questions.

[Saru]

The first thing I see is that Saru enters with lists of reads in tiers (111, 124), but these never return. This raises my suspicion, because I think that it suggests emulation of a thought process not organic to Saru. I looked for previous games and found nothing useful, sadly (I wandered through the ScoreHero forum from his Wiki page and found nothing, I found a game by Saru786 on MafiaHero in which said player died without posting, and then I gave up because I felt that the time delay would make it difficult to draw meaningful conclusions).

I would not try to look at ScoreHero or MafiaHero to understand my thought process as it stands today. Those games were from something like 5 years ago, and most of how I view things and people in a game of mafia have changed drastically since then. I don't actively try to play to any kind of meta shown in those games, mostly given that I don't even remember how I played in those games anyways, save for maybe one.

At the time of the extended argument with Persivul over "contradictions" (between 256 and 337 or so) I was reading Saru as Town for nebulous reasons. On further review I attribute this to tone; Saru maintained a focus on certain things (whether Persivul answers his questions, mostly) that I interpreted as aggressive and therefore more likely to come from a Town player. I no longer endorse that position; Persivul was one of the leading wagons at the time, so I could easily see the narrow focus (at times divorced from identifying motivations behind actions) as representing a desire to maintain position on a wagon. However, Saru leaves the wagon in 337 to join the wagon on Kappy, which reached L-2 with that vote. This was not a vote from nowhere (Saru expressed suspicion of Kappy in 237), and was not closely preceded by any other changes in votes, so I don't attribute that move to any nefarious motivation.

Yes, Persivul had some votes on him at the time, and I felt I could push him on something to see how he would react. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "maintain position" on a wagon. Do you mean I felt forced to give reasons why I was voting a wagon?

He agreed with cases presented against karnos (430 and on), which I also thought were reasonable.

At some point he decides that Persivul was providing good content (468), which is suspicious to me because the most recent read on Persivul prior to this (351) was Null, and I don't see anything from Persivul between the two that seemed so important to reading him (or any indication from Saru that he is reconsidering something from earlier). He later (753) states that he removed his vote after MechaGoomba cleared up a misunderstanding (300) but does not indicate why is reading Persivul as Town.

Good content doesn't always equal town. I never read Persivul as town? Johnny asked me who I felt a town leader could be. Scum can easily find themselves becoming a town leader through being solid in play and hard to argue against. While I didn't think(and don't think) that Persivul is scum, I felt that he could make a good town leader just by his posting early on in the game.

I've no issue with Saru taking time to decide whether to vote for karnos when karnos is at L-1 (587), though I don't understand what thought process might lead to lynching karnos if replacement players read him as Town (589).

This needs some context. I said that I was neutral on Karnos. Therefore, to help me rid of that neutral read, I felt like a claim would help with that, seeing as that is where he was headed anyways. This is why I say I don't mind giving intent if the replacements read Karnos as town because then they obviously wouldn't vote for him, which means I would have to, to get him to L-1. However, since I was neutral, I felt it made more sense for the replacements to put him at L-1 if they found him scummy. Unfortunately, due to the nature of his claim, I'm still neutral as Neapolitan can be either a town or scum role, but some have pointed out that it's more commonly scum. But I don't really see any proof of that, so I don't really buy it at the moment. His choice of Persivul as the person to check is what I expected him to do. Persivul's point #3 in 989 is pretty much what I was thinking too.

Advocating a policy lynch on JohnnyFarrar (868, 877) looks fine to me; I can't think of a reason why a Mafia player needs to cast a vote there with such weak reasoning (JohnnyFarrar was the only wagon and was likely to be lynched without assistance). There's a possible exception if the wagon was entirely composed of Town players, in which case the Mafia may have collectively decided that votes would eventually be needed there.

Just curious, do you think that the Johnny wagon was all town up until my policy vote on him? Because your 804 would suggest that you do. So I'm assuming you think the exception is what actually happened here.

I am suspicious of the bouncing read on qubixes (suspicious of the vote on JohnnyFarrar in 895 and 917, Town in 923, casting a vote for him in 936 with renewed suspicion of the vote on JohnnyFarrar in 938, qubixes is "a good lynch candidate" in 943 and obviously Mafia in 947, 1012, and 1042 but misguided Town in 1086). I'm not really inclined to accept the wave of the hand offered in 1086; acknowledging the changing read does not explain it. What was qubixes doing in those posts that was swinging the read so wildly?

The general reason for my read changing heavily on Qubixes was because of his vote on me right at the start of D2, which set off my scum read of him. I found it extremely odd that he would he vote me at the start given that he said he found you to be a much more viable lynch at the end of D1. The deadline can't be his excuse because he admits that it's not just the deadline that is keeping him from voting me, but also because he feels he can't lynch me regardless because I'm so town read. So what was it about N1 that all of sudden made me so lynch-able? Nothing that I see suggests that all of sudden I've become the scummiest candidate for the majority of people. Why do you think I suggest that he was just randomly voting me in 936, when it seemed clear that by his own thought process, he should have been voting you at that time. Everything from 936 to 1042 is me scum reading him. Although, even through all that, my gut said misguided townie but my brain said scum. After looking back on it all starting from the end of D1, I decided to go with my gut since it's just subconscious logic. I feel that someone like qubixes, if he were scum, wouldn't really play the way he has towards me. I feel like his reaction to me calling his Johnny vote scummy was genuine town frustration. Maybe he felt like he was being singled out of the wagon and found that unfair. That's what I'm starting to think. Me calling him "obvious mafia" was aggression, similar to what I did with Persivul in 283.

In general I don't find that Saru appears to be attempting to discern alignments. I see few questions or directed interactions with other players that would indicate a proactive attempt to solve the game; rather, Saru seems to be reactive in all reads. This is potentially an explanation for some of those things that didn't display obvious nefarious motivation; these moves would support a reactive, coasting style.

I think early on I was trying to discern alignments. It is true that more in the middle and end of D1, I played more reactive. But I think my explanation in 895 explains as to why. It sounds like what you're really trying to ask me is who my scum reads are at the moment, which I'll provide in a later post after I look over some ISOs of certain players. The back and forth between qubixes and I kept me distracted.

I partially reviewed qubixes and Persivul in order to solidify my read here. I am reassured in some things that I found and am moving them to lower priority for reading.

Are your reads on them the same as they were in 804, or was that just in relation to the Johnny wagon? Would like to know where you stand on the people you're reading up on.

[Saru]

@Saru

We've established that you feel that the case qubixes presented is weak. What has he said that changes your read so wildly between "weak argument from nefarious Mafia" and "weak argument from misguided Town" (preferably with examples)?

Actually it was more like misguided town -> silly scum -> misguided town. From his reaction to my post suspecting his Johnny vote up to the end of D1, I felt like misguided town and said so. Most of D2 up until now I felt silly scum. But now, as explained in 1086, I feel misguided town. Reasoning and examples can be found in previous posts.

[Saru]

This is why I gave up on reading through those sites. My more important observation is that your tiered lists of reads have vanished. Why is that?

My tiered lists of reads have vanished because you don't know how to read. If you don't agree with my 895, then that pretty much means you don't believe in your own reasons for being so inactive. Anyways, I chose not to put out a list of my reads after the whole Karnos thing(where my activity dropped) because replacements started becoming an issue for me. I've said this already. It became hard to follow who was replacing who. The big walls weren't helping either. It doesn't look like I'll be putting out a reads list until the weekend since even more people have replaced out. I've never been in a game like this. Funny enough, you admit to having the same problem. Notably, you haven't put out an actual tiered list of reads the ENTIRE GAME up until NOW. Seems like Wingback's case really lit a fire under your ass. Even more funny is the fact that your entire ISO is absolute reactive and coasting garbage. You don't try to discern alignments at any point. You mostly just agree or disagree with other peoples' statements and you basically only answer questions directed at you and then vanish until another comes up. You've been tunneling Kappy so hard the entire game, it's not even funny. Part of your coasting agenda, it seems. Qubixes has pointed this out. Can you please point me to more than one post where you were PRO-ACTIVELY trying to discern alignments? I can't find it anywhere in your ISO. I find it suspicious but not surprising that you've picked up your activity level in D2, mainly after the Wingback case. Not looking so hot. Even some replacements have, at this point, put out more content than you. For shame.

I mean that I could see your actions from a Mafia player who decided to be on the Persivul wagon and then went looking for reasons to stay there.

Except this makes no sense unless you can somehow prove that I wasn't actually reaction testing either Sick or Persivul. If I decided to be on the Persivul wagon AND THEN looked for reasons to stay on there, why would I list my reasons for voting him when I actually do vote him? I didn't "look" for reasons, I already had reasons.

I don't find this explanation consistent with your 468. You said that Persivul had "good stuff throughout the thread" and I find it hard to believe that you meant anything more nuanced than "content likely to come from Town" there. JohnnyFarrar asked for a Town leader, and you gave him the name of a Null read without further embellishment?

Are you really trying to tell me that scum can't become the town leader? Or just about anyone, regardless of alignment? I don't even think town leader is something that the town should have unless they're a conftown who is experienced at scum-hunting. Even then, leaders make mistakes. It was merely a suggestion, in other words, I didn't take it too seriously, and I didn't expect anyone else to either. Me saying that Persivul has "good stuff throughout the thread" isn't me saying that he is town. Once again, good content doesn't always mean town. Don't know how to make that clearer. If you don't agree with that, well then too bad, I'm not going to try convince you otherwise.

Aye, I'm still having the "too many players as Town" problem. I'm considering that the wagon may have been all Town, but I'll keep thinking about it as I reevaluate.

"Too many players as town." In other words, you're having a hard time with scum-hunting. Which means that you're not being pro-active. O SHIT! LOOK! SCUM!

As I understand this, you are saying that this is a "gut read" based on things like tone/frustration. What I don't understand is why your "brain read" was Mafia. Why would a Mafia player be especially likely to vote you rather than me at that point (935), having stated suspicion of both of us?

That's why I said I think my brain read is wrong. He seems to be doing too many contradictory things. He seems like a player who would play solid scum, imo. To see all the mistakes, I'm getting the feeling he's just not thinking about what he truly wants as a frustrated townie. His attitude towards me ever since I've called him out on the Johnny vote only makes me feel this further.

I think that your explanation in 895 answers a question of activity level, but my question is one of proactivity--that is, whether you are attempting to discern alignments. You should be doing more than answering questions directed at you.

Hypocrisy 101. I guess since I've not been pro-active, and you think I'm scum for that, then that means you're scum too? Through your own logic? Go read what I wrote in my first response, above.

Responses in

bold.

I have a good feeling that Dierfire might be scum. Trying to grill me on being inactive while picking up his own inactivity by doing so is terrible. I'm going to hold off voting until I see something from qubixes in regards to my responses to Mecha about him. Also because I need to time to look back at ISOs. All these replacements are starting to make me lose track. I'll probably put out an entire reads list similar to what I did in the start of the game, on Saturday.

[Saru]

Why are you so focused today on Saru (other than he is pushing you) as opposed to Dier today then?

Because I have a stronger scum read on Saru. Also, I find him rather annoying as well. Didn't really feel like he was pushing me for real either, more like trying to piss me off.

And that feeling that you're getting pissed off is clouding your judgement.

I kind of want to make a case on Saru, but it might take some time, so don't wait for it I guess?

I'm really scummy yo. The case should take you no time.

[Saru]

@Saru

Based on the fact that you used this format at the beginning of your first two posts, I assumed that it would be one of the primary ways that you organize your thoughts. Since then it has not reappeared. I am suspicious of this because it makes it seem that your method of organizing your thoughts is not consistent and perhaps that these lists were fabricated.

I understand what you're trying to say here, but the assumption is wrong. I didn't use it as a way to organize my thoughts, but, more to show people why I felt the way I did about certain reads. I felt it would be a good way to see what people thought about my reads, but much to my chagrin, no one really commented on it. My lack of tiered lists after that is explained by this. Because after that, I saw my attention going to specific people rather than a general view of things. I'm pretty sure the point of a reads list is to be as general as possible to help you discern alignment by peoples' reactions to it. But, of course, some might use it to organize their thoughts, but that wasn't my specific purpose with those reads list early in the game. Seeing as I had felt that Persivul was scum from my reaction test, I pursued him. However, after my argument with him, I felt null. Therefore, I moved onto my next scum read, who was Kappy. And then so on and so forth. Basically, the reads list really served as a starting point for me to focus on certain people as the game moved along. Seeing as my reads hadn't changed too drastically by the time Wingback questioned me about activity, I saw no point in a reads list. However, as it stands, I'm going to put out a similar tiered reads list somewhere around Saturday because I feel the need to put out my thoughts about what has been happening recently with the Math wagon and so on, since I've been distracted. Also, because, my reads have started to shift pretty hard on certain people.

Obviously I do not agree that a lack of tiered lists in general is suspicious (else I'd be pursuing players who never posted even one). Your attempt to note that I haven't put out a list of tiered reads in response looks like "counterpunch" here and increases my suspicion.

Yes, you not putting out a list of tiered reads UNTIL I ask you to looks suspicious. Putting out a reads list doesn't seem to be the way you play naturally. It's not organic to you or your thought process. Therefore, the fact that you hastily put one out at the moment I ask you to seems contradictory to your own play-style and thought process. Why put one out NOW instead of just saying that you don't really see the need for a reads list? However, if you did see the need for a reads list, why didn't you put one out in D1? Most of D2 makes me feel that you've been scrambling to not only up your activity but also your pro-activeness. I'll explain why I don't think you were being all that pro-active as you claim to have been in D1 more in-depth in my read of you.

I disagree that I've only been agreeing or disagreeing with other thoughts. As examples of things that I've done proactively (by which I mean things that I do to help me read other players--also note that I make a distinction between activity, which is reflected in things like post counts, and proactivity, which is reflected in the content of those posts), I offer: my questions to Kappy in 355 and 394, trying to understand the read on Mizzytastic that Wingback gave (494), looking into old games of karnos to see whether his phrasing in his own "counterpunch" was stylistic (558), working to lock karnos into a claim (642), prompting JohnnyFarrar for content to read him better (712 and 720), probing for reasons why MathBlade didn't use associations with karnos to read JohnnyFarrar (892), and discussing your read on qubixes (1101).
You said that you read my ISO and didn't find anything proactive; did you read these and dismiss them?

Most of these things you point out, I've already looked through, and, yes, I dismiss most of them as being not pro-active, for several reasons. This will be explained in my read of you on Saturday, as right now, I don't think this reply to you is a good place to do that, seeing as most people wouldn't really care to read this thoroughly since it's addressed to you specifically. Plus, it would be just making this wall bigger than it already is. And it seems most people aren't fond of walls.

2. I'm not interested in arguing about definitions of "Town leader" but I do want to compare your stated definition to your actions. JohnnyFarrar asked who was "Town leader" and you gave him the name of a Null read (Persivul) without further elaboration. If you feel that "Town leader" can be of either alignment, why did you not mention a read on Persivul to JohnnyFarrar? Would it not have been important to say whether the "Town leader" was a Town player or a Mafia player if you're using a definition that makes both equally likely?

I'm not sure what you're asking here, to be honest. Yes, a town leader can be either alignment. My read on Persivul at the time was null. Why would I say whether the town leader was town or mafia? Doesn't null imply that they can be both equally likely? Johnny could easily have gone back and checked my read on Persivul himself. I have no reason to tell him that unless he specifically asked, which he didn't. The player I chose as town leader makes sense with the definition. Honestly not sure what you're on about here.

3. You're saying that your "brain read" on qubixes was wrong. I want to know what reasoning you had at the time, for which is not sufficient to tell me why you're reading him as Town now.

The reasoning for my brain read itself or of it being wrong? I'll address both I guess. My brain read was because I felt he was over-reacting and being too contradictory. My gut read was telling me that those contradictions were too numerous and obvious to be coming from scum. Also, that it seemed his over-reactions were more from anger/frustration towards me on a personal level rather than a scummy one. Therefore, I felt my brain read was wrong.

Responses in

bold.

[Saru]

@Saru

So, if I understand you correctly, you initially read qubixes as Mafia for overreacting and saying things that you felt were contradictory, then thought that there were/was too many/much mistakes/overreaction for qubixes to be Mafia?

Yes, plus that the overreaction seems to stem from genuine IRL anger towards me ("being a jerk") rather than faked anger.

[Saru]

Saru, your vote is bad.

I agree.
UNVOTE: qubixes

[Saru]

To work to work. It is off to work I go.
Gotta write some lines of code and earn the dough.

Titus I love you, let's not betray that sister groove.
I have faith in you sis so please make yourself understood.

Then everyone can get a ready on the old slot of Kappy.
And you can make this all super snappy.

When you are town you usually figure things out.
I look forward to hopefully you and scum get in a bout.

Because scum will never win that fight.
I have faith you will turn around and read me right.

This is me trying to reach across the post aisle.
Doing everything I can to make you smile.

Please bring it sis and use more than 5 sentences,
Because there is no limit when you swing for the fences.

[Saru]

Will have my reads list out by tomorrow. Been busier than I thought this weekend.

[Saru]

Here are my reads. I will put each in a spoiler, because some are bigger than others.

Spoiler: Dierfire

My read of Dierfire will be a 2-in-1. It will be my read in general, showing posts that feel scummy, and also refuting his point about certain posts he peddles as pro-active in 1198.

Dierfire immediately jumps into the game with a reads list(228 and 229), but this never returns(until specifically asked for one). This raises my suspicion, because I think it suggests emulation of a thought process not organic to Dierfire. It makes it seems like his method of organizing his thoughts is not consistent and perhaps that this list was fabricated. Ahem, sound familiar?

Anyways, one of the big things for me, is the Karnos vote, unvote, vote, then unvote. This is terrible on so many levels. I have a good feeling Karnos might be scum with Dierfire(see my Karnos read) and I think this lines up with that. Keeping in mind that scum have day-talk, I think his whole unvote and re-vote business shouldn't be surprising. It seemed very unlike him compared to the rest of the game so far. His "partial" explanation of it all in 797 is also equally terrible. Why are we even allowing "partial" explanations of such scummy stuff? Partial suggests that he's hiding something else in regards to the explanation(I would love to know what that is), or that he knows his own explanation isn't good enough to pass as town, but he has no choice but to give one. So "partial" excuses its terrible reasoning. Plus, the explanation even points out that he wanted to lock Karnos into a claim. I think he got an easy 2-in-1 by not only locking Karnos into a claim(as planned), but also by potentially getting town-cred for being the one to do it.

As for the actual voting itself, the first one comes in at 558, where he gives a weak meta-read of Karnos as justification for voting him and it puts Karnos at L-2. This is probably bussing to make him look good/distancing. However, I don't think he was expecting Mathblade to swoop in and put Karnos at L-1 in 562. So when he comes back the next day, he chooses to unvote. Knowing that scum have day-talk, this makes sense. The unvote gives time for him and the other partner to explain to Karnos what to claim/how to go about it, since it seems Karnos really isn't all that experienced. Dierfire, on the other hand, seems to have quite the experience under his belt. Anyways, when he finishes telling Karnos what to do, he votes for him in 642 to obviously get that planned claim out. Once the claim is out, the subsequent unvote in 704, as planned. I would also like to note that Dierfire's explanation for his vote on Karnos in 642 is very unlike him, from what I've seen so far. That statement "I'm still not entirely sure what's going on here, but I think that I know enough" feels like something forced/planned. I don't think town!Dierfire would say something like this. For most of the thread he seemed natural in his explanations for votes or un-votes. But when it came time for the Karnos vote/unvote, he seemed to get very uneasy and out of his element. I doubt town!Dierfire contemplated so hard about Karnos that he forgot how hes been playing for the majority of the game. It was all too sudden.

As a side note, him asking Mathblade in 724 "What was weird about it?"(referring to the Karnos vote/unvote thing) is scummy as shit. How would town!Dierfire not see how people wouldn't find that weird? Really? The reasonable and townie thing to have done in response to Mathblade would have been to (fully) explain why he did what he did. Not ask what was specifically weird about it. By asking specifically, he allows himself room to talk about only certain aspects, rather than have to give a full explanation, as that might sound strange.

228 - Look at Persivul read. Low key buddying with "and how many Mafia players look up the ages of other players?" Not hard to click name and see age on profile.
355 - Asks question, never got answer. Can't judge for pro-activeness since it's more than just asking a question, as explained below.
394 - Asks question, never got answer. Same thing.
494 - Asks a question to Wingback about Wingback's Mizzytastic town read and Wingback gives an answer in 519, but Dierfire never replies back to it. Never factored it into his read of Wingback either. Not pro-active because if you're just going to ask a question and never reply to it, where is the "discerning alignment" happening? To just give out random questions and then never follow up is pretty damn suspect. It feels that you are giving questions just to show you're being pro-active and active in general, and that the questions don't really mean anything.
558 - He says that he is pro-active for looking back into an old game of Karnos where Karnos was town to see if Karnos' wording in 382 matches up to a post in that game. The first issue is that I see Karnos as scum with Dierfire, and so in this scenario, it just seems like Dierfire trying to find anything on Karnos to vote him to bus/distance. Doesn't want to stick out like a sore thumb with a useless vote on Kappy. Second issue is that Dierfire contradicts himself here. He says that the post he pulled up from the town!Karnos game has "similar wording" but then says that it is "slightly different" in that very same post. What?
642 - This vote is addressed above and why I think it's not pro-active is also found above. To summarize: He says he wanted to lock Karnos into a claim. But, of course he'd want to lock Karnos into a claim. It's a claim that he probably gave to Karnos himself(more on this above). He was was hoping and probably knew from experience that such a claim would get votes off Karnos. Karnos was gonna be L-1'd eventually, and to be the one to do it and claim credit for it comes off as LAMIST and something he could put in his back pocket to use as evidence of his fake pro-activeness.
712 and 720 - Asks the question to Johnny about who he scum reads, and Johnny answered in 723. Doesn't reply to answer. Never makes it into his read of Johnny, or factors the reply into it. Explained above why not pro-active.
804 - His read of Johnny is a whole lot of nothing. Tip toes around Johnny harder than Jerry does around Tom. Seems like since he was pushing the Kappy vote(easy mislynch), he didn't see the need to vote Johnny as it seemed Johnny would be hammered sooner than later at that point. By keeping his vote on Kappy, who was inactive at the time, it would be an easy excuse not to vote Johnny. He didn't want to be on the Johnny wagon for obvious reasons. He even alludes to not opposing the Johnny lynch, but never seals the deal with a vote.
823 - Promising to read me is important here. Since he knows Johnny is going to be hammered soon, he needs to set up his D2 actions accordingly. I was universally town read going into D2, and he probably felt he needed to change this. Presents a case on me, suspects me pretty hard, but doesn't vote. Why you might ask? Simple. He saw the Mathblade wagon piling on and knew that would be the easier mislynch. Also because his case failed pretty badly. I'm not sure anyone looked at it and thought "oh Saru scum" as he was hoping. Qubixes might have(although he never commented on it), but that's besides the point. Qubixes was already reading me as scum, and he would have conf-biased hard because of that anyways.
892 - This is maybe the closest thing I can think of to being as "pro-active" as he claims. But, even then, it is weak. He asks a question to Mathblade and Mathblade answers(893). He then indirectly replies to Mathblade's answer via his reply to Mecha(1006) by dismissing it as "abstract meta-defense." Basically, he never refutes Mathblade's point in 893. He simply chooses to dismiss it outright without any real reasoning.
1003 - This is terrible. Surprised this went unnoticed. He tries to fix up a DEAD Wingback's point about him in Wingback's case against him. Like seriously? What's the point in trying to fix a SINGLE point made in a dead person's case against you? That just comes off as paranoid. Why not just address it directly to other players, instead of taking the roundabout way? Actually, better yet, why not just address the whole case instead of just a single point? He already took the effort to address one point, why not the others? I think he's happy no one has really brought it up against him. Firebringer alludes to it in 950, and Dierfire asks Firebringer in 1005 if he even read the case by Wingback. Firebringer never responds, but to even ask that question instead of asking WHAT Firebringer felt were good points made by Wingback, seems like he is avoiding addressing the case in general. By not asking what the good points are, Dierfire can avoid having to counter them and just draw attention to them in general. Similar to asking Mathblade what was "specifically" weird about his Karnos vote and unvote fiasco(explained above).
1218 - Looks like some scum thought process slipping out by mistake. "Although I can't recall any posts that sound like they were written in collaboration." It's hard to tell whether he was talking about his own posts here, or other peoples' posts. However, that doesn't really matter, because it's the thought that counts. For him to even say that "can't recall any post that sound like they were written in collaboration" suggests that he is genuinely curious as to whether his or his scum partners' posts were sounding too buddy-buddy. He didn't even have to be legitimately worried about ACTUAL collaboration. It is more likely he was worried that he might have been sounding too buddy-ish to one of his partners somewhere along the thread and hoped Math or someone else could point it out so that he could fix it, because it seems obvious that he wasn't willing to refute it.

All that being said, I'm pretty damn positive

Dierfire is scum.

Spoiler: Firebringer

Firebringer(replaces Chumba and The Bulge) - My read on this slot is mainly based on Firebringer's actions seeing as Chumba replaced out early on in the game and The Bulge was never really active. Early on, I did read Chumba as town because her questions seemed to be genuine scum-hunting, albeit with a little too much aggression(although she addresses this as play-style in 93), as her small spat with me starting at 216 indicates. However, I thought this because I felt her counters to Mecha were pretty good and that Mecha's questions towards her seemed like busy-work, but looking back at Mecha's questions towards her early on, I can see where the claim of a reaction test makes sense(see my Mecha read for more). As for The Bulge, he didn't have much in the way of posts. He looks at Persivul vs. Me as TvT, then the rest of his posts don't really make much sense to me. So not really going to factor him into the read. As for Firebringer himself, the only noteworthy things are that he didn't choose to read up on the thread(I want to say NAI because of Johnny, but we'll see) and that he chose to vote Dierfire because that was Wingback's biggest scum read going into D2, where Wing flipped town. I feel that these two things match up in terms of thought process pretty nicely. For him to say he probably won't read the thread, but to quickly look at who the town flip chose as his scum target and then vote that person, seems to line up in terms of consistency. I can see how that might be a starting point. Admittedly, this isn't a good reason to view Firebringer as town or even null-town because that could have easily been a scum coming in, not willing to read the thread, seeing who the most likely target might be, and voting them. Seeing as scum have day-talk, I don't see how they couldn't just provide their own summary of events that occurred, which would save Firebringer the read and allow him a hop onto what seems like it could have been an easy lynch. Overall though, I'm not really leaning towards either one at the moment. I want to see more out of Firebringer, specifically, actual reasons to vote Dierfire and the reads list that he promised in 1171.

Null read.

Spoiler: MathBlade

MathBlade(replaces Snork) - Snork didn't really post anything of interest before replacing out. Not going to factor in anything about him into this slot read. As for MathBlade, I feel that her crazy hard push onto Karnos for the majority of the game is genuine town frustration. Not simulated. I just don't think scum would be this fucking irate over one person for this long. If this was simulated scum frustration, she would have most likely voted off Karnos in D2, which she did, but she would have also just dropped the Karnos thing altogether along with the unvote. This doesn't seem to be the case in 1210, 1252, and 1253. It seems like the wagon on her is mainly formulated because people just don't like her pushing on Karnos like mad even after the claim. So if that is the case, and Math is scum, she would have wanted to leave the Karnos thing to get the wagon off of her. But the fact that just keeps alluding to it makes me feel she genuinely wants to grill him and really doesn't care at this point if she gets lynched because of it. I have to admit though, this kind of tunneling, regardless of its motivation, is very anti-town, as it distracts from other scum targets and just scum hunting in general. While she is now looking at other targets based on her Karnos read, the fact that she didn't drop the Karnos thing much earlier annoys me, even if I think Karnos is scum. But at the end of the day, annoying is NAI, and I like that she is now picking up on other players besides Karnos.

Medium town read.

Spoiler: MagnaofIllusion

MagnaofIllusion(replaces Species) - Species didn't really post anything of interest before he replaced out. Not going to factor anything about him into this slot read. As for Magna, I feel that he is most likely town. He came in, offered to read the whole thread, gave a PROGRESSIVE reads list as he went along, and didn't sway on his push against his scum reads after they were presented. All that to me shows an effort to try to pro-actively solve the game. Also, whenever he asks questions, he follows up to the answer, and pokes and prods hard. Similar to Mecha. The one thing I want to address is this whole fight with Math, which seems to have started when Math said "fuck your rules" in 773. That seemed to have set off an explosion between the two that has yet to heal. Most of their back and forth after that reads like TvT to me. It's just a bunch of theory being thrown around about the Karnos claim and if he should be lynched as an un-cc'd claim or not and so on and so forth. Then after that, they start picking at each other for misreps and just other petty things. It really bores me to no end. I almost want these two to get over it and hug/kiss it out and then focus on real scum. Overall, the fight looks insignificant to me, and Magna's play has been very solid so far.

Strong town read.

Math and Magna, this is for you guys:

Spoiler: Qubixes

Qubixes - Most of what I think about him is in 1086, 1099, and a nice summary is in 1224.

Weak town read.

Spoiler: MechaGoomba

MechaGoomba - Looking back at my read of him as nullscum at the start(111), I had an odd feeling that the number of questions he was asking Chumba seemed like busy body questions, similar to what Dierfire has been doing. However, seeing what he says in 88 in regards to Chumba, I can see how those questions were part of a reaction test to discern alignment, and not just fake questions to look busy. He's been a strong town read for me(339) ever since I saw him trying to clear up the confusion between Persivul and myself in 300. Looking back at his early posting, I get the feeling of strong scum-hunting via questions that not only covered lots of players, but he seems to be pro-active with them because he seems to respond to the answers given and pokes and prods heavily based on the answers. Overall, his play-style seems to have been consistent in terms of scum-hunting and he has generally covered a wide net of players with pro-active questions that I think most scum wouldn't be willing to do.

Strong town read.

Spoiler: Titus

Titus(replaces Kappy) - Kappy was my scum read for most of D1 after my spat with Persivul was over. Mainly because his promised read on the whole Sick vs. Persivul fight was crappy and I explain why in 237. On top of that, he chose to actively avoid Dierfire's and my questions to him, saying that his focus wasn't on mafia at the time in 395. That seemed like an excuse to me at the time, but seeing as how he went V/LA and then just never came back, I guess he really wasn't lying. Anyways, how I felt about him before he replaced out doesn't really affect my Titus read here. As for Titus, she seemed to have stopped reading around page 11 due to walls. Seems to love brevity in her posts. I can't tell if the brevity comes from replacing into a game with 40+ pages and not wanting to read through it all, or if that is just how she plays from the very start of a game, regardless of alignment. Might have to check some old games on this one. She seems to read Mecha as scum because Mecha seems to not outright deny Titus' logic(1146) when it comes to scum reading him along with Math(1268). But, also to note, Mecha doesn't say either way whether he thinks Persivul could be scum with him and Math or not. I just find it strange that scum would do something like that. If Titus' scum-team is accurate, then Mecha choosing to say he understands why Titus thinks that way, is rather odd. I just don't buy that it could come from scum. Why put himself closer to his scum-buddies rather than distance himself from them? I'm just not sure I understand/follow the logic there. A more scummier thing for Mecha to have done their would have been to outright deny Titus and ask WHY Titus thought that Math and Persivul were scum-buddies with him. That way, he could potentially figure out how to stop looking like he was buddying with them. Overall, I can't really tell at the moment if this Titus logic is misguided townie or scummy. I guess time will tell.

Null read.

Spoiler: Persivul

Persivul - This is someone who I've been null on for the majority of the game, pretty much since the point where my argument with him ends in 337. However, ever since then, he has done little in the way of actual content, just putting out little quips here and there. Votes the Karnos wagon because he felt that Johnny's case on Karnos was good(478), and just never really provides his own reasoning. Jumps onto Johnny after the Karnos claim because apparently he felt Johnny made that Karnos case to look townie and then just be able to safely coast after the claim. This, admittedly, isn't terrible reasoning for voting Johnny. I can see where Johnny might look suspicious in that regard. However, I did note one big thing about Persivul in regards to the Karnos claim. In 783, Persivul suggests that Karnos should out "not VT" results. This sounds like scum right here trying to use their buddy Karnos to confirm their reads on certain townies as PRs and then they could safely NK them. If Karnos chooses to out a player with a "not VT" result(keeping in mind that the result is faked to fish for PRs) because scum suspects them to be a PR and instead they were a VT, then scum could just throw Karnos under the bus and get him lynched for "slipping up." They will have used his power as best they could to determine who was a PR and wasn't, and could move on to pushing a lynch or NK'ing these people who they found to be PRs through PoE. This whole scenario though is probably not what is going to happen, or what is happening, seeing as Karnos claimed to be role-blocked. Instead, I can't see why scum aren't just telling Karnos to keep claiming to be role-blocked and that town will just believe him every time. It seems to have worked in D2. If town got too suspicious of this, and wanted Karnos dead as a result, it seems like scum wouldn't mind bussing and getting rid of him, as he would have served his purpose well for them. Anyways, I think that Persivul would make for a good second partner for Karnos after Dierfire. His replacement is going to have to work hard or do something really radical to make me change my view on this.

Medium-strong scum read.

Spoiler: Masquerade

Masquerade(replaces Mizzytastic) - Mizzytastic was a solid town read for me for her pro-active questions in the start and just general will to get out of RVS asap. She was the first one to point out Karnos' terrible 56 and seeing as she was a newer player, this kind of determination to scum-hunt seems unlikely if she was scum. I didn't let this read of Mizzy influence my read of Masq when he first replaces her. Admittedly, I didn't even pay much attention to him early on, mainly because his ISO is all over the place and hard to follow. Even now, during my ISO read of him, I have a hard time understanding where he stands on people as it moves along. Lots of votes/reads changing pretty quickly. My head legit hurts. Seeing as I can't really make a determination based on most of it, I guess I'll read him based on the one big thing that stands out, which is his choice to hammer Johnny in 903 without a Johnny claim. I didn't really have a problem with this as I explained in 874 and the second paragraph of 895. I can understand why he did it. I am very slightly town reading him for it because if he was scum, he would have been shooting himself in the foot with that hammer. Not enough people were up for a straight up hammer without a claim at that point. If they were, I can see scum Masq being the one to do it. But they weren't. What he did was way too risky either way. I would like to see a tiered reads list from Masq at this point in the game. I can't tell where he definitively stands at the moment.

Very weak town read.

Spoiler: Karnos

Karnos - I've felt null on Karnos for a while now. But looking at my Dierfire read, I think Karnos being scum with him isn't a far off thing. I'm not as gung-ho about lynching Karnos as much as MathBlade is at the moment, but I do think that if he throws out another "No Result" like he did today, he should be lynched. No results don't help us if he's town and if he's scum(look at my Persivul read for more), he's just getting away with it as MathBlade said he would on D1. Now, looking back at some of his posts, 56 is clearly awful. The excuse he gives in 112 is paltry and contradictory. He says in 56 that he didn't think "Kappy [was] in danger of being quick-lynched" which is fine. But then in 112, he goes on about how he wouldn't be worried if the quick-lynch led to a Kappy scum flip but not a town one. That is some scummy thinking right there, no two ways about it. If he didn't think a quick-lynch was going to happen, why in the world would he be worried about Kappy flipping town? It shouldn't matter to him since the quick-lynch wasn't going to happen, as he says. Looking back at it, I feel like my 430 and 438 weren't far off, and it feels like Karnos played like an over-defensive and paranoid n00b scum early on in regards to his responses to Mecha. Also, one of the huge things that help me to connect Karnos and Dierfire together is Karnos' 731. He says that he is "curious to see how Dierfire responds", talking about the vote/unvote thing that Wingback pointed out looked scummy from Dierfire. However, when Dierfire DOES talk about it in 797, Karnos never bats an eye at it. Like seriously? A person just did some huge scummy shit with you by voting you, unvoting, voting, then unvoting in a matter of 2 days and you don't point that out? Karnos had been pointing out petty shit from other players like crazy, but something as scummy as that from Dierfire towards Karnos, and Karnos doesn't give a damn? Why? I'll tell you why, because he's scum with Dierfire and that was all planned(look at my Dierfire read for more). Karnos doesn't want to draw attention to it, for obvious reasons. One last big thing is 994, where the excuse Karnos gives about choosing Persivul over Masquerade doesn't hold up. He says "Someone like Masquerade fit into the first qualifier, but I had my fear that he might be killed or jailed at night." How in the world would someone think this? Masquerade claimed VT in 922. Why would anyone kill or jail a VT claim? That makes no sense. At first I thought Persivul was a good target too when Karnos said it, but realized I was conf-biasing because I was already thinking Persivul would be a good target right before N1 started. While I feel Karnos is practically scum, I don't think he should be our lynch for today. One because he is tied to a claim, and if he fucks up(which he probably will without Dierfire's advice), that is pretty much the end for him. So I don't mind waiting. Second because I feel that Dierfire is probably the "leader" of the scum team, if you will. Probably gives out the ideas and whatnot. Cut off the head of the beast, and it's dead. Karnos can wait in that regard.

Strong scum read.

VOTE: Dierfire

He is at L-1.

[Saru]

I think the scum are Dierfire, Karnos and Magna currently.
I don't do tiered readslists like ever.

I agree with 2 of those 3. Why are you reading Magna as scum again? I would look back at your ISO for reasons, but I honestly can't follow most of it. So if you could lay them out for me all at once, that'd be great.

[Saru]

I feel manipulated by him.

Can you point to posts where you think he is trying to manipulate you?

He hasn't posted any kind of read on Dierfire, but I did see a little bit of defending him in the form of attacking his accuser (Math)

I'm assuming that you're referring to 1212 by Magna. I read that as less of a defense of Dierfire, and more of an attack on Math for a weak reason to town-read someone(in this case, myself). Magna seems to be defending the idea of "polished posts" rather than Dierfire. It just so happens to be that Dierfire is the person that Math is attacking here. Point being, the subject of Math's attack doesn't matter here for Magna, it's the content that Magna is attacking. Do you disagree?

The reason Magna hasn't put a read out on Dierfire is explained by 787, it seems. Read that last part..."Null. On my first read-through his impact was minimal. I didn’t see anything that stuck out to me as scum posting but I didn’t see thinks that looked Town either. Since I have several stronger candidates I haven’t felt the need to dig into his ISO at this stage." Magna is talking about Dierfire here. Do you think it's wrong of Magna to not go through the ISO of someone they feel is null? Genuinely curious.

He had a whole read progression on Karnos which was entirely dropped when Karnos claimed (Magna replaced in after the claim happened) and refuses to consider lynching him because we shouldn't lynch a uncc'ed pr. IIoA.

He did replace in after Karnos claimed, but he did say in his first post(605) that he hadn't been following the game at all. I feel like his read progression was to help him organize his thoughts about players as he moved along. Do you disagree? As for not lynching an uncc'd PR, I can see the reasoning behind that. I looked back at Magna's ISO regarding Karnos' pick for D2(Persivul), and he doesn't seem to comment on it anywhere, instead arguing with Karnos about his "jailed" reasoning as one of the reasons for picking Persivul as a target. I guess I would want Magna to explain how he definitively feels about Karnos' choice of Persivul as a target.

He pushed Johnny's lynch p hard, even while Dierfire came up as possible scum end of Day 1 and kept pushing Johnny and never gave any kind of opinion on Dierfire, as if he just wanted that misslynch to happen.

Well, like I said above, he was supposedly null on Dierfire(so he does give an opinion) and felt that Johnny was scummy. Why wouldn't he push a Johnny lynch, if Johnny was his scum read and Dierfire was(is?) a null read?

Responses in

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[Saru]

@Saru -- I don't understand how you townread Magna.

Right now because Masquerade and Dierfire are so likely scum together that forces Magna to be town by PoE but his posts are super shitty. Like Terribad.

Can you give me reasons besides "super shitty" posts as to why I shouldn't be town reading Magna? I'm genuinely asking.

[Saru]

Magna

Constantly misrepping my posts.

I looked back at the misrep that you point to, and it seems Magna is referring to you calling Dierfire's 1218 a scum slip. I agree, that it was scummy, but not a definite scum slip. Magna seems to have a problem with you calling Dierfire outright scum for 1218, and that is what I'm assuming Magna is talking about when Magna says that you seem to have "reverted to just saying Yo, you scumz" to people you think are scummy. I can see why Magna might have a problem with that, but I just think it's just part of your aggressive play-style.

Attempting to classify a good read as a scummy action because I didn't follow along with their reads.

I do think that Magna has a point when he says that your read on Titus comes off as buddying. I don't think it's scummy buddying, but it is buddying nonetheless. Maybe post an actual read on Titus, besides meta? I'm not sure what you mean by "didn't follow along with their reads."

Then without having ever posted a read on Dierfire calls it a counter wagon of me gasping for life.

As I said to Masq(1309), he did post a read on Dierfire, calling him a null read. And he obviously scum reads you. That's why he calls it a "counter-wagon." Once again, I see where he is coming from. At the same time, I feel he's not understanding your aggressiveness. And so, once again, I feel this is TvT butting heads.

Responses in

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I'm not really interested in the fight between you and Magna right now. My focus at the moment is on my scum reads. Depending on what they flip, I might revisit this whole thing between you two. But I'm confident it's just TvT.

[Saru]

@Saru
Anything that Magna directed to me.

lol...that's quite a lot. I might or might not try to see if he was "manipulating" you, as you claim, later on.

Isn't null the definition of not having a read?

I guess it depends on one's definition. Being null on someone and having a null read of them are two different things, imo. Being null on someone means you have no opinion/read. This usually only happens during the start of a game or when a slot is being replaced. Having a null read means their ACTIONS don't seem townie or scummy to you, but anything too drastic could easily switch your read of them either way. I don't agree with Magna's null read on Dierfire, but that's besides the point. He does have a read on him, regardless.

He never tried to improve his read on Dierfire when that wagon came up yesterday and today.

This is true. I wrote this off as too busy/tunneling with Math to really care for anyone else, but now that you mention it, I would like him to give an updated read on Dierfire, now that Dierfire is at L-1.

Responses in

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[Saru]

@Saru -- Titus is genuinely puzzling me. I know you said not a meta read but with Titus being my RL sister and all it is really hard to do that. Titus just puzzles me to no end and loves to fuck with me if scum. It is one of the reasons it is very hard for me to ever town read her. If I had to with a gut read I guess she would be town since she is actually trying to read me and not instantly tunnelling me within two seconds of posting, or that she is actually caring to try to read me. She is null with a sliver of a town lean.

Fair enough. I used to play mafia with my brother on another forum, and so I know that feeling. However, I would advise you to try your best to not let meta cloud your judgement. Meta is ok at times, but in a case like this, it might be best not to use it. Just focus on the here and now, that way, you can feel confident about your read on her. Titus seems to be an experienced player, so I don't see her having a hard time changing her meta from game to game, and that's why I didn't really choose to look at her past games in my null read of her.

[Saru]

The fact that Titus suspects Mecha but not Math for pretty much doing the same thing is scummy, to say the least.

Last time I checked, both Mecha and Math have been very similar in pushing certain targets hard as fuck, usually the same target(i.e. Karnos, Dierfire, etc.), and have just generally shown a pattern of buddying. I personally don't think that both of them can be scum in this scenario. The buddying is way too obvious and I feel, at this point in the game, scum would want to start distancing themselves from one another. I feel like Mecha has a bigger chance to be the town in this scenario because his reasoning for voting who he has, hasn't been all that weak. It seems like he puts some thought into it. Math, OTOH, has been pretty abysmal when it comes to giving legit reasons for voting people. Her reasons for voting Dierfire and suspecting him were weak as fuck(as Magna has pointed out), and I feel like a fucking idiot for buying into them. She just seems to yell out "SCUM!" onto people when they put a sliver of suspicion onto her, or try to counter her.

The fact that Math said in 1308 that "Magna [is] town by PoE but his posts are super shitty" just looks like an attempt to plant seeds of doubt when Dierfire flips town. Her reaction to Karnos hammering Dierfire was even worse, as Magna pointed out in 1384. It seemed like an attempt to set the stage for a D3 Karnos mislynch when Dierfire flips town. Her crazy push onto Karnos, even after his claim, is a bit strange, and was really the only reason I was feeling she could be town, as scum pushing that hard would look suspect. Too risky. But, honestly, I feel like maybe that push wasn't such a big deal after all. She might have tried hard to plant the seed of doubt in town's mind about Karnos, but when she saw it was hard to do so, chose Dierfire as a target. She seems to be the kind of person willing to take that risk.

This is where my scum read of Titus comes in. The fact that Titus doesn't really think Math is scum is annoying. She says "maybe Math", which feels like skirting the wagon of her scum buddy pretty damn hard. What exactly is the difference between Mecha and Math here? I don't really see what makes Mecha more scummier than Math in Titus' eyes. I feel like Titus might give a shitty meta excuse, but I wouldn't buy that for my life. Until Titus specifically points out posts from Mecha that seem like absolute scum, I'm not buying it. Actually, I even point out why one of her big reasons for suspecting Mecha is terrible in my read of her in 1301.

Also, as a side note, Titus felt that Dierfire was an "acceptable"(1275) lynch, but never really explains why. She might point to 1163, but that is absolute garbage in terms of reasoning.

Also, as another side note, for most of the start when Titus replaces in, she sees Math as scum but refuses to vote her(1175) for no particular reason and then just says that Math "just obvtowned with that comment about lynching those who don't care" which is a terrible way of putting it. Math actually says that she'd more willing to lynch those who didn't present an actual argument versus those who do(1269) which isn't "obvious town" at all. It just sounds like Math was advocating for a policy lynch, more than anything else. Which, if you look at it, is scummy given that Math had actual scum reads that she was pushing, so to all of sudden say that policy lynching would be ok with her, is scummy. Not obvious town. This seemed like a subtle way for Titus to get rid of her fake scum read of Math.

At this point, it looks like Math and Titus are good choices for a scum team. Math, more so. If Math flips scum, then Titus is definitely my next target. As for a third partner, I'm not entirely sure. I'm looking at Dwlee only because I read the slot as scummy, and not much more. That might change based on flips and whatnot.

VOTE: MathBlade

[Saru]

Your memory sucks. I have been explaining it pretty damn well and you fucking quote me on a lot of the posts. It looks like more you are trying to pick between me and Mecha and making up reasons rather than Mecha and I are both obv town. There is a reason I have been protecting Mecha so long. THINK!

My memory sucks? Really? So, please, refresh it, why don't you? Point me to your posts where you scum read Dierfire for legitimate reasons. Most of what I see is you just nit-picking Dierfire for the dumbest things(1219). Your 1279 is equally terrible. If I understand it correctly, you seemed to hate that Dierfire was reading Masq as null but never interacted with him enough, and so that's scummy because he didn't put effort into moving Masq into a town or scum read? Let me know if that's it, because if it is, I don't see what the scummy thing really is. Dierfire had other people he felt like voting/scum read, and so I'm not sure why he'd choose to comment on Masq since he claims that he was still reading up on him. It only makes sense to actively push your scum reads while you're still reading up on your null reads.

Just no. I have been scum reading Karnos since day fucking one. Yes it has been hard to explain but for the love of all that is holy I have had to partner hunt all damn game. It is either great or shitty depending upon how you do it. Since people refuse to even consider Karnos scum it is like I am on my own banging my head against the damn wall. It just pisses me off. Magna's posts are shitty. Karnos's hammer was bad. These things are objective facts.

Stop. I've already pointed out how Magna's posts aren't shitty. You've yet to counter me on that. Calling things "objective facts" is only making me scum read you more. You're coming off as desperate.

I agree Titus is probably scum buddying up to me with Karnos.

Titus is buddying up to you because she's scum but also because you both want a game where you guys aren't screaming at each other? What. The. Fuck. How do I even respond to this? I don't give a flying fuck about the history between you and Titus when it comes to how you guys interact with each other, nor am I going to take the time to check. Please stop using that as a reason for anything.

I would be okay with a Titus lynch but I think Karnos is better because then you can get rid of scum. Scum that no one wants to lynch because of a fake made up bullshit claim.

This entire day feels like people looking for a reason to call me scum rather than actually believing I am scum. These posts look so damn reachy.

You mean like how you've been looking for reasons to call Karnos scum? You've reached on Karnos pretty fucking hard. Don't act like you're the victim here.

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[Saru]

@Saru, Please don't respond inline. Those are hard to follow.

Hard to follow replies for me when it's not inline. I like to be precise about who/what I'm responding to so there isn't any confusion. Not really going to stop that unless others find it hard to follow as well. I hate having to cut out quotes section by section to respond. Gets too hectic in the reply box for me that way.

[Saru]

@Mecha, Already done. When you said it was ok for me to think you were scum with Math but not Persivul (Dwlee now).

I've already pointed out how Mecha doing this isn't scummy in my read of you in 1301. Don't be a lazy scum and go read it.

[Saru]

@Saru, You also said you were damn positive Dierfire was scum.

Why don't you listen for once?

I also said that depending on what Dierfire flips, I would look back at MathBlade.

Why don't you read for once?

[Saru]

I did. Look back at doesn't say anything of value other than look at me. Second, it's Notconsistent with your supposed strength of scumread on Dier.

I like how you ignore my post about Mecha, and then choose to say I don't listen because I thought that Dierfire was scum, literally changing the whole topic. Dodging 101.

Also, how is it not consistent? I very clearly say in 1312 that depending on what my scum reads flip, I would visit the whole Math vs. Magna thing. Seeing that Dierfire flipped town, I feel Math is scum due to the Magna interactions and her attitude towards the Dierfire hammer. Disagree? 5 sentences or less.

[Saru]

Ok, so then, why do you disagree? Stop disagreeing in silence and just thinking that I can read your mind.

[Saru]

Mecha is scum flailing. Pushing a quicklynch, kissing up to Magna.

By quick-lynch, I'm assuming you mean the one on Dierfire? In that case, don't you feel that Math was also pushing the quick-lynch? Didn't you see Math kissing my ass in 1202 and 1208? Like seriously, how are you ignoring these things?

If anything, Mecha had infinitely better reasoning to vote for Dierfire compared to Math. How you see him as scum but not Math is beyond me.

[Saru]

@Saru

– since you are here and around could explain to me how you don’t see the Mecha links to Mathblade I am seeing? If you need I can run-down specific posts for you but in summary I think his reasons for Town reading Math are contrived (saying that she has terrible logic but is consistent logic as an example).

Because I don't see why Mecha would choose to link himself to Math this hard(see below for more). What reason does he have to do this? Why can't he just let Math get lynched and just fly under the radar? Losing one scum-buddy at this point wouldn't be the end of the world, especially if it means going undetected. Sure, if one scum-buddy was dead at this point, I can see why scum!Mecha would want to defend scum!Math so hard. But that's not the case. Right now, the scum have the advantage. Why would they throw that out? You can show me all the links in the world, but if you can't show motivation, I'm not going to care.

Why do you come to this conclusion? Given we have two mislynches and two kills so far scum has less incentive, in my mind, to distance. There are 9 players left alive. Assuming 3 scum (which is the strongest logical set-up with the information we have so far) a mislynch and successful Nightkill puts the game in LYLO tomorrow.

Yes, but distancing can also be viable strategy here. By choosing not to, they leave themselves wide open to being caught butt-fucking each other. That comes off as risky. Genuine question: do you think that Math and Mecha would be willing to do that here? Because, from my POV, Mecha has no real reason as scum to defend Math. He would only be making matters worse for himself, especially considering the fact that Mecha had no real suspicion on him UNTIL he chose to start defending Math. It just reeks of stupidity and n00b. I don't feel that Mecha is either of those. Also, if both Mecha and Math were looking for a mislynch at this point in the game, why in the world would they vote two different people? Math voted Karnos and Mecha voted Titus. Doesn't it make sense for them as a scum-team who are buddying to get a mislynch to send the game into LYLO(as you say) to be on the same wagon?

In fact this theory seems to directly undercut your Titus – Math theory as Titus is treating Math very clearly as bad Town.

No, because my point of buddying(in this case) is that it is a two way street. The fact that Math sees Titus as possible scum but Titus doesn't see Math as possible scum tells me that they're both not buddying. Only one of them seems to be doing so to help the other not get lynched. Plus, it makes sense for Math not to buddy up with Titus at this point since she has already pointed to feeling that Titus is scum. To switch now would be obvious. The thing to note, however, is unlike Mecha who is hard-defending Math, Titus is choosing to play it subtle. That's the big difference when it comes to not throwing out the scum advantage, as I point out above. Especially when she says "maybe Math" in 1388 after she says that Math is "obvious town" in 1275.

Responses in

bold.

[Saru]

First, I have 30 years of Math experience. 1202 and 1208 are her thrilled you agree with her, not her kissing your ass.

Math had a decent reason to vote Dierfire. It was him or them.

I'm reading this as you having no real reason. Nice try though.

[Saru]

@Saru, Glad to know you see the truth as no reason.

Your "truth" is garbage meta. I don't care how much experience you have with Math. People change what they do and how they play all the time depending on their role. Same goes for Math's read on you. Seriously, come up with real reasoning, for once.

[Saru]

@Saru, Discredits noted. People take much longer to change their core interior. I've played more games of Mafia or Resistance than the rest of the game put together with them. Call it garbage, but it isn't. If Math has weird associations, it makes them more likely to be town. I also know the intent of what Math tries to convey. She was not buddying you in her posts.

Also, if you felt buddied, why not call it out at the time?

Aren't you discrediting me and everyone else then by saying you've played more than all of us combined? Noted.

Have you ever considered that Math knows that you know how she plays, and is therefore playing differently? I'm assuming you guys have played with each other for a long time, and so at some point, it's only reasonable to assume that Math has changed her "core interior" in regards to you?

The reason I chose not to point out the buddying is because I felt it was part of what made Math town. I felt her pure aggression towards those she was scum reading seemed too town and by responding to Dierfire with nonsensical arguments for reading me as town, it was just her playing to that.

[Saru]

Math, Magna, Masq, Karnos and I are all likely probtown. Saru although too stubborn for sanity is likely town.

VOTE: Dwlee

So the scum team in your mind is Mecha/Firebringer/Dwlee? I find this very unlikely. Mecha for reasons already stated. Firebringer because of his apathy towards the game. I would imagine that scum!Firebringer would be at-least a

bit

worried about being so inactive in this game while continuing to be active throughout most of the forum in general. I read his apathy as town, similar to Johnny. Dwlee is the only one I can see as a potential scum, mainly because of his predecessor and not really anything that he's done. While I do find his inactivity and unwillingness to not read to be annoying, him being on V/LA doesn't really make me want to push him on that right now.

Is your vote on Dwlee a push to get him to respond or do you just feel he has higher chance of being scum than Mecha or Firebringer?

[Saru]

@Masq - What is your viewpoint on Firebringer? If inactivity is NAI, I'm assuming you read him as neutral?

I feel like either Dwlee or Firebringer can be the third scum. Can't be both. Titus' vote on Dwlee makes me suspect Firebringer more though, now that I think about it. Her vote seems opportunistic, given that Magna has decided to vote Dwlee. She probably felt that her push on Mecha wasn't working, and sees Dwlee as the easier mislynch. Only way I can read that.

[Saru]

I am voting the largest wagon in my possible scum verse. No shame yo.

Damn, I will say one thing, you are very good at making pretty believable excuses. Nah, not buying it. In my scum verse, your vote was opportunistic. Shame on you.

[Saru]

Excuses my ass. I'm jumping yo. In a townie opportunistic manner. I'm not about to quibble over which of my scumreads gets rope first.

lol "townie opportunistic manner." Ok yo. Totally yo. Right yo. >.>

[Saru]

Why would Fire be worried? He's not on anyone's scumlists, and if he popped back in to do whatever (defend a buddy, bus a teammate, grab some towncred) people'd be much more likely to notice him disappearing again.

I agree with this. That's why Titus' vote on Dwlee has me thinking that Firebringer might be the third scum.

I'm in that really annoying state where I have a bunch of scumreads (Dwlee, Fire, Titus, Magna) but no fucking idea how to fit them together into scumteams.

Would you be willing to admit that maybe you're just overthinking a lot of things? Also, why do you think Magna is scum?

PE:

I'm not about to quibble over which of my scumreads gets rope first.

Saru, if you really think this is scummy you're confbiasing hard.

How? The fact that Titus doesn't deny my accusation of her vote being opportunistic but instead chooses to give an excuse for it should be telling. Titus is like the master of excuses. She makes some really good ones too. The thing is, town wouldn't be this willing to have their scum reads all on the same level in terms of a lynch. Town usually wants a lynch for their highest scum read, because they would be paranoid about lynching someone they felt was less scummy. Her choosing not to worry about which of her scum reads gets the rope makes sense coming from a scum. Scum KNOWS who is town and who isn't. They don't have to worry about putting their scum reads into a tiered list with levels and all that jazz. They would just be fine with lynching whoever they can get the chance to. Town would just naturally be more careful in that regard.

Responses in

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[Saru]

@Saru, I am not you. I want to lynch scum. There's a threshold. You cross it, you're lynchable. If not, you don't.

Bullshit on bullshit. So what is this supposed threshold, then? Has Dwlee's inactivity made you believe that he is as scummy as Mecha? Or that it has passed the threshold? From my understanding, you feel that Dwlee is scum because of his slot. Are you not willing to let Dwlee argue otherwise? Seeing as he is V/LA, it only increases my suspicion of you voting him in a scum opportunistic manner. For town who subscribes to your threshold argument, voting their scum read who is V/LA over voting for their scum read who isn't would be silly and they'd know that. Scum, OTOH, could care less. They'd want to vote the V/LA one because that one would be less willing to argue against their lynch. Someone like Mecha is hard for you to mislynch because he's putting in effort in try not to get lynched. Dwlee doesn't seem to be doing that. You as scum see the opportunity, and obviously grab for it. You get +1 points for trying to spin it though.

[Saru]

I pick apart people's posts it is what I do. What you call "dumb" I call scummy. It is a difference in how we read people. I believed Dierfire and Masquerade were in collusion because neither ever read the other. In my experience that is usually a pretty big scum tell so I pushed them together. With the flip I know now I was mistaken. Sure you can look back with 20/20 hindsight and know Dierfire is town now. But that is all it is hindsight. He had reads on everyone else. At this point in the game "null" and yesterday "null" is bull.

Well the hindsight argument doesn't work because I didn't EVER think that Dierfire was scum for choosing not to read Masq. I never saw that as scum even in my read of him. I'm not arguing hindsight. Also, Dierfire had promised to read up on Masquerade and give an opinion. Regardless of his flip/alignment, how could you say for a fact that he was lying? He said he was going to read me on D1 and he did on D2. He went through with what he promised. Why couldn't he have done that with Masq? This is something that could be seen even without hindsight.

No. You have been explaining how you want to believe Magna's posts aren't a steaming pile of dog poo. That doesn't mean you are correct and your logic is flawed.

Oh really? So then what do you call 1312? Notice how in your response in 1315, you never address it? Seriously, if you're town, you need to take off your conf-bias glasses and get a clean pair. You're so knee-deep in your own bullshit that you can't see through it. If you're scum, I guess that only makes sense.

Responses in

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[Saru]

I kind of think you are town Saru, but why was I am third scum here when you said in previous post I was town for my apathy? I am confused on that part or you jsut like 'Probably town for this, but I easily could be wrong?"

I said that you were town for apathy, but also that it could only be you or Dwlee via PoE who would fit in the third scum slot. I was leaning towards Dwlee at that point because of his slot. But when Titus decided to opportunistically vote Dwlee, it seemed to only make sense to put you in the third partner slot via PoE. I'm not 100% confident on you being scum tbh. Pretty weak actually. I just don't think anyone else(at the moment) fits that mold. This will probably change because PoE isn't the strongest reasoning.

[Saru]

I did address your concern. Your concern was that I did not have a Titus read.

Seems like miscommunication between us. I'm not talking about Titus. I'm talking about you addressing why Magna's post aren't shitty as you claim. I'm saying that in 1312, I point out why what Magna is saying/doing isn't shitty, and that it makes sense. You never seem to counter that in 1315 yet argue in 1464 that I'm only "explaining how

want to believe Magna's posts aren't [shitty]." I don't see how you come to that conclusion, unless you completely disagree with my assessment of Magna in 1315. If you do, then in that case, why didn't you put out that disagreement in 1315?

[Saru]

Furthermore I had already said it was a bad hammer because the majority of people hadn't come back from the outage. That includes Dierfire not being able to post their read. Maybe that would have been enough to keep things going in a proper direction. No instead Karnos fucking hammers like the scum fuck he is.

Umm...but he did? 1153?

[Saru]

ou
1153 has Masquerade NULL. That is the entire point of why I thought they were both coaligned. Neither of them had a read on either one. Look at Masquerade's ISO they never had a read on Dierfire and I had to push them in the thread to give one. This is usually a scum tell to throw your scumreads in the "meh deal with you later pile."

What are you even saying here? I'm talking about him putting out a reads list which you said he didn't get a chance to do because Karnos hammered. Or are you saying that he never got to update his read on Masq?

You stated a read and analyzed the post. I think the posts were shitty you did not. When I wrote that post I was focused on Dierfire because Magna did not make sense in my scum team of Karnos/Masquerade/Dierfire. The posts were shitty yes, but we both had the same read at that timeframe and I really wanted to sort the Masquerade Dierfire bit and see where that stood. I think Magna has been making a lot of shitty posts (look at my ISO) and I have been pointing them out consistently each and every time I believe them to be shitty

Ok, that's great and all. But once again, do you think that the points I made for Magna's posts not being shitty were legitimate? If you don't, why? Counter them specifically if you feel this way. Assume that I've looked through your ISO and found nothing that convinced me that Magna's posts were shitty.

[Saru]

@Saru

– I’ve read and digested your response on Mecha. My reaction is – meh. In understand where you are coming from but think your stance relies on elements that don’t always hold true like scum always playing optimally when that isn’t necessarily the case.

Then can you point me to places where scum!Mecha hasn't been playing optimally? Your reaction isn't convincing me of anything.

You are answering your own question – scum have “the advantage” and not losing a member is the number 1 way to maintain that position.

My point is that "the advantage" comes from being able to bus your partner since all of them are still alive. If scum!Math is getting shit on by the town, scum!Mecha would have no reason not to just bus her. Losing her wouldn't be the end of the world for scum, and it would allow him to fly under the radar. By protecting her, he's taking/has taken on too much suspicion from people like you. I would argue that scum!Mecha would be smarter than that, but that's just a personal read.

Town!Mecha never noticed this at all but his read in Titus was flagging for other reasons. Town!Mecha thanks you for putting the nail in the coffin.
Titus/karnos/Masq is my favorite surprisingly plausible scumteam theory that is still definitely not true.
Magna's been bothering me for reasons I can't articulate, but I'm fairly certain a good portion of that is just that he rubs me the wrong way. I'll have to reread to be certain about him.

@Magna - Posts like this from Mecha is why I town read him. Just look at the amount of flip flopping that is going on here. He's covering such a wide array of players with so many different reads in such a short amount of time. This is paranoid town 101.

[Saru]

Thoughts on Dwlee/Pers, Saru?

Feel his slot was/is scummy. The timing of your vote on him makes me feel he might just be town. I didn't really take his jump from 1353 to 1356 to be scummy. Seemed consistent with a replacement's thought process. His frustration town read of MathBlade makes sense coming from a replacement as well. His recent posting has me scratching my head, he might want to explain that when/if he comes back. And he also might want to read up. Overall, the slot read is scummy but the person in the slot hasn't been all that scummy. Not my biggest priority in terms of a lynch.

[Saru]

Ok wow. I didn't expect ANY OF THIS. I was way too fucking sure about the whole Titus/Math thing. I applaud Math for the successful push onto Karnos. Like, that shit made me read Karnos town so hard. I would have never thought he was maf, even after the Neapolitan claim. Sad times. Oh well, gg scum. I hate being town.

@Mecha: nice working with you. You cool.
@qubixes: No hard feelings? <3

P-edit: Masons recruited because we had our heads in our asses lmfao. Totally off. Ugh. It hurts so bad how off we were.

[Saru]

Just curious, did the mafia notice my crumb of Mecha as mason? It's in post #36 of Mason PT.

[Saru]

Just curious, did the mafia notice my crumb of Mecha as mason? It's in post #36 of Mason PT.

Tbh, I scumread masons so me thinking you and mecha were scum made sense.

Yeah, I understand that. We tried our best to be natural with each other because I knew that town could mis-read our closeness. But I think I made it too obvious at one point that we were related somehow. Or knew each other's role. Something along those lines.

[Saru]

I died because I'm mason who recruited scum. Then scum killed Mecha, who happen to be my mason partner but also a motion detector.

[Saru]

^what Grey said.

[Saru]

@qubixes: No hard feelings? <3

I hoped you were scum...

You think I'm a terrible noob. I get it.

Doesn't mean you have to go out of your way insult my play at every corner. I mean seriously, like half the mason thread is about saying how terrible (or scum) I am. (Slight exaggeration.) You're even saying my read/case on Karnos is bad even if Karnos flips scum... It's kind of fitting we lost the game after you recruited him.. (Though I doubt we would have won even if you recruited town instead.) And you would never recruit me because of my style, not alignment? Ew.

I know I'm not a great player. So what. You learn by making mistakes. I genuinely thought you were scum for discrediting me (among other things). Turns out you were town discrediting me. Whatever, if/when I play another game probably not with you.

You're taking it too seriously. I've never thought you were a "terrible noob" but I did feel you were trying too hard to look town. Not sure where I was discrediting you. I mention you like twice in the mason PT...And no, I wouldn't have recruited you because of your style, but because you obviously took my response towards you in a strangely personal way, which would have made coordination between us very lacking/awkward. I'm not even sure what I said that makes you feel this way. I guess I was right not to recruit you then, since I guess you still feel this way. :/