Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[Csareo]

This guy again
VOTE: flubbernugget

[Csareo]

Yokay, RVS is taking to long.
Someone......................... say something.

[Csareo]

I'm a neighbor with BBT and from the pregame chatter coupled with the opening vote while lacking a forthcoming explanation, I'm already very distrusting of him.

VOTE: BBT

Maybe you can explain his meta for us more trusting folks?

[Csareo]

It was only page 1, how is RVS taking too long?

I have played with BBT before, he seemed like a super wild card to me in that game. He flipped scum.

Skipping the endless drivel of "what's the point of RVS", I'll conclude that it simply isn't fun.

[Csareo]

How does pregame chat work?

[Csareo]

Sorry, but I don't have much to contribute today.
Casting my vote in the meantime VOTE: Telltaleheart

[Csareo]

Okay, let's get back on track.
Wake88 appears to be right, there is little chance that a "pre game" chat, would also allow the ability to post from it (Isn't that mod kill worthy?).
Why come out as neighbors right away?
Isn't that something scum would do to protect each other?
I thought this was a normal game?

Doctor Pepper's response made it ever worst. I was thinking about voting BBT, but he's kind of high on the VC, so I'm leaving it on TTT for now.

[Csareo]

Missing details is NOT a scum tell. If anything it is a town tell.

[Csareo]

VOTE: wake

Literally nobody is saying you are scum JUST for not reading "every post" you are scum for a myriad of reasons now, but the one you are TRYING to refute is that you are making cases on people and actively posting while not reading your target's posts and complaining about not having time to read every post. As if posting these braindead cases does not require any time at all.

Myriad of reasons? Name 5...

[Csareo]

Missing details is NOT a scum tell. If anything it is a town tell.

What the fuck does that have to do with him making reads on players without reading THEIR posts? And it's not "details" it's entire posts that HE asked for as if to imply he was scumhunting which he clearly wasn't because he ignored the result.

Are you reading the game at all?

I am, but your argument isn't making sense.
In no way does missing details make him scum, even if he made a read out of them.

Which if you think about it, is the opposite of logic, going off the premise that wake never knew those missed details existed to omit from his case.

[Csareo]

Anatole, that is not 5 different reasons. It is the same reason repeated in 7 posts.

[Csareo]

In my time playing mafia, I established two things as true.
1. Town slips more than mafia
2. Being wrong, forgetting something, or missing something, is a town tell.

[Csareo]

Calm down, you're both embarrassing yourselves.
I agree with wake88, the reasoning is asinine, but the reaction was taken out of context.
Anatole is trolling wake, seemingly for those reactions.

Unless it was staged or acted, that's good evidence wake is town.
Anatole may be a trollish town player, but who know's at this point.

[Csareo]

TBH telltaleheart, a game with pre-talk, neighbors, and the ability to quote is not normal.

[Csareo]

Pre-game talk while waiting for all confirmations is normal. I've had it in every game I have played on this site.

Literally, it would only make sense if you're a mason, traitor, or in mafia.
Usually the neighbor is scum, which is why your claim is even more suspicious.

[Csareo]

Yes, and the neighbor is honestly a useless role, so mods only use them if there is a scum element intertwined in the neighborhood.

[Csareo]

After reviewing the game, I am almost certain he's scum VOTE: anatole
Probably on the same team as one of the neighbors, but we'll pick one of you off depending on how anatole flips.

[Csareo]

Case for Anatole + BBT + TTH

Well, I first started to think you were scum, when I saw your early vote and unvote for BBT.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Why do you need to quote to us your discussion of who to night kill?

Usually this is fine, but the unexpected unvote took me by suprise. Scum have a common tactic of voting their buddy early game. Nothing extremely indicative, but certainly suspicious.
Didn't see a justification either.

uhhh

UNVOTE: blue

Then there was this whole interaction with grey ice. Boy, did the sirens go a'flying.

It is masons except they don't know eachother's alignment.

Having at least one scum in a neighborhood has been the situation in every single game I have played with neighbors.

In post 81, GreyICE wrote:
Anatole, what games have you played with neighbors? I find your analysis fascinating.

Sorry, I realized I can't really discuss this more.

In post 106, GreyICE wrote:
Yo, Anatole, I'm calling bullshit

I went through your games. Your last game with a neighborhood had two town neighbors. Do you know what, Anatole? They were both town. Your last game with Neighbors, Anatole.

You know what? There's a very old philosophy. It goes Lynch. All. Liars.

I find it nearly impossible to believe that you didn't even bother to do a quick double check as part of an actual sincere scumhunting effort (instead of piggybacking on the hate). And then you dodged my question, Anatole.

Lynch. All. Liars.

Vote: Anatole

You can lynch Boonskiies when I'm dead for a twofer, fyi.

This post also made me relax my read on BBT, but now that I go back, all of it seems like a way to temporarily relieve himself of pressure, even bringing the statement up in the beginning of his post.
Further indication that the two are in cahoots. Notice how know hostility came back from anatole following this vote? Completely unlike his meta, right?

All this talk of whether neighbours have pre-game chat is ridiculous.

Every game I have played in I have had pre-game chat if my role allows for it. It's usually quite short as you only have as long as it takes for the majority/everyone to confirm for the game. When that's done, the chat is closed.

Boon's 93 was awful.

Anatole lying is also pretty bad.

VOTE: Anatole

Now, skipping the PT topic post which can be found, here
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6201895
That was literally the scummiest thing I've seen. I'm almost certain it was forged, or details were ommited. The formatting was off, as if someone editted it.
Anyone notice that?

That was my line of thinking. I just starting doubting myself after constantly re-reading it. I think TTH knew I was suspicious and decided to come after me from the get-go.

I hope my stance is a little clearer with this information out.

VOTE: TTH

Convenient, right? Especially after reviewing BBT's earlier posts in the game, Although, it is possible, that telltale is protecting himself, as BBT found this information out earlier.
Could it be a hit, is she trying to remove the liability?

I don't see the scumslip.
Top
Anatole Kuragin
Mafia Scum

User avatar
Joined : April 19, 2008
Location: Right under join date, please.
Pronoun: He
Post Post #128 (ISO) » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:24 am

Uhh.. so are you going to explain it wake?

This is the second time anatole has came in defense of TTH
It also appears to be the only time the two came into direct conflict, which is why I'm doubting my read on BBT. Here is the third defense....

Why is your first instinct upon reading "tackle a read" to assume the aim is to fabricate a false one?

But HERE is the big tip off, the mother of all fuck ups

I'm probably suffering with conf. bias here.

When I saw my role PM, I automatically assumed that TTH was scum. Then I convinced myself after post 3 of the neighbour thread that she slipped. However, during recent exchanges in this thread, I'm beginning to think that TTH is actually town.

If you are town TTH, you made a pretty big mistake in your opening post of this game. You should have waited to see what developed.

UNVOTE:

God almighty, perhaps they're creating some elaborate plan, it is beyond me. This got me all worked up with theories, and almost certain the above is scum motivated.
In support of my anatole-BBT scum team theory, this fits perfectly. I notice that TTH took off pressure of BBTm despite what she contrary said, following the unvote.
Come on, who do you take us for? Redirecting suspicion

In the midst of the ongoing storms in me vs. BBT and Boon vs. GreyICE, I see that someone is making posts while taking care to sit it all out.

This vote flip was the final tip off on anatole, sychronized perfectly with BBT.

I'm going to keep digging at this until I get more info from reactions and such. That you're dissembling this and now lying about my words is pretty revealing in itself.

VOTE: Anatole Kuragin

Maybe this vote will.

VOTE: Wake88

VOTE: wake

Literally nobody is saying you are scum JUST for not reading "every post" you are scum for a myriad of reasons now, but the one you are TRYING to refute is that you are making cases on people and actively posting while not reading your target's posts and complaining about not having time to read every post. As if posting these braindead cases does not require any time at all.

[Csareo]

In conclusion, I think there are two possibilities. Here they are ranked one through three.
1. Anatole is scum
2. Anatole is scum with telltaleheart (most likely)
3. Anatole is scum with bluebloodedtoffee (likely)

[Csareo]

Actually, boonskies, doogal, and the wolf person are pretty convincing. I'm better off with a BBT lynch, but am worried about the VC.
Is he at L-1? If so, then

Intent to Lynch

[Csareo]

UNVOTE: anatole
The more I think about it, the less I am convinced he is a strong scum read.
BBT and TTH on the other hand, are, so that's why I'm unvoting.

A flip from either BBT and TTH would reveal a lot as well.

[Csareo]

VOTE: BBT
I trust you enough that you're telling the truth about being at L-3.

[Csareo]

1. The vote flip on me by BBT is the most shameful scum tells this game. This guy is literally hopping votes for whoever is the greatest threat to him. First it was TTH, then Wake, and now me? How is this piss not scum motivated?
He's more interested in protecting himself than playing for town, and uses the vote button way more care free than I would choose to like.
2. @Massive, it isn't that I liked their cases, but the more I think about it, I realize anatole is the least scummy out of the three, most of his stuff can be explained by meta, and if I accept him as partner with one scum, I contradict on alliance tells with the other (TTH +BBT).
3.

That quick hammer policy is so crazy anti town that Boons is on my scum list.

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic. I've seen him play enough to know he's a bit of a troll.

[Csareo]

Think what you must. To me, it seems you're starting wagons on whomever gives you the most pressure.

[Csareo]

The only person you have to blame is yourself.
Instead of scum hunting and giving us reasons to think you're town, you continue to make scum tells, and you continue to defend yourself, abusing your vote power.

I noticed this pattern immediately when I started playing the game. Town under pressure try to prove an alternative case, and scum hunt someone else. Scum under pressure spend all their time proving they're town, even voting those who accuse them of being scum (noob scum)

[Csareo]

What's attractive about this lynch, is that you are not only throwing a million scum tells at us every other post, but also reveal a lot about TTH in your death.
One of the rare cases I'm open to a policy lynch, which unfortunately isn't necessary, because I'm pretty certain you're scum.
'

[Csareo]

It strongly indicates (but not for certain) that the other player is of the opposite allignment. Something I became suspicious of, after they voted each other in the beginning.
We will also discover a lot about how this neighborhood works, something TTH ran from answering when asked.

[Csareo]

I opened up to the possibility that they are launching some elaborate plan, but it's unlikely.
@BBT- Asking to be lynched? This is going to be sad when you flip town. Vote for yourself if that is the case.

[Csareo]

Actually, it was a mistake. It should read "if you flip town"

[Csareo]

Is this your only comment?
Come on, you pretty much lurked the entire game.

Replace out.

[Csareo]

Searching for posts to provide massive.
For now, I'm saying this

STOP GETTING BEHIND SOME BULLSHIT WAGON BEING MADE BY A DEFENSIVE AND REACTIONARY PLAYER MAKING HIS CASE ON ONE SPELLING ERROR.

Thank you. Experienced players know this has happened to many people before.
The wagon is evidentally reactionary. Has BBT voted someone who wasn't pressuring him?
Vote flipping to people who pressure you is the scummiest thing imaginable.

[Csareo]

Yeah, I already conceded they didn't make sense.

[Csareo]

I'm also scum reading greyice, but what's more alarming is BBT voting everyone who scum reads him, or provides a threat.
What have we learned since 1986, people?

[Csareo]

Doesn't it apply the same for town. Why is he voting everyone who replies to him if he wants to be a helpful and productive townie?

[Csareo]

It strongly indicates (but not for certain) that the other player is of the opposite allignment. Something I became suspicious of, after they voted each other in the beginning.
We will also discover a lot about how this neighborhood works, something TTH ran from answering when asked.

I thought your theory was that we were both scum and fabricating the neighborhood conversation and that Anatole was trying to run interference to cover up the ruse. Now it's that we're actually a different alignment? Why is the story now changing?

Also, I'm not sure what questions about the neighborhood are outstanding. What are they?

You've been asked in two posts. Are you paying attention?

@TTH would you answer these two questions... 1. Is BBT your only neighbor? 2. Do you have day chat. Both of those questions are still outstanding.

[Csareo]

Does it look like Csareo ignored (386)?

I seemed to think like you , although the anatole vote was a leap in the wrong direction, as I'm starting to discover.

[Csareo]

Not sure I get the case on me. Especially with the mountain of scumminess on BBT.
It's actually to the point of frustrating.

[Csareo]

Oppurtunistic vote jumping, lack of scum hunting, and the fact that he is more focused on removing threats to himself than hunting scum, is why I'm voting him.

[Csareo]

Please don't go inactive people. It would help if a few players replace out.

[Csareo]

There's a general rule for lynches are reached.
Someone claims something was done with scum intention.
People agree and decide to vote.

The real question is whether that supposed "scum intention" has evidence behind it, or speculation.
95% of lynches in this game are pure speculation of what someone could be doing, yet there appears to be actual, solid logic for voting BBT. Do what you wish.

[Csareo]

Your case on me is weak. Even ruffles case is weak.
It was pretty much "You're scum because you voted X"

[Csareo]

Let's end the speculation. I answered the question to reinforce support for the BBT lynch, since I feel he is scum.
Something that is frustrating me deeply, is how everyone laxed pressure, especially after all we witnessed.

[Csareo]

Suddenly BBT scum reads boonskies as well.
Reactionary plays are scum plays.

Pro Tip: Stop fucking voting for those who scum read you

[Csareo]

@Ruffling- Can you explain the case on me a little more? All I could see was a summary of my actions and vote history.
@BBT- Who do you think is town?

[Csareo]

Ignorance does appear to be prevalent.
I get pissed everytime I see BBT responding to my quotes, because his only concern appears to be defense.
I have a gut read on ruffling and flubbernugget. Flubber mostly for meta reasons.

Not sure about boonskies, but I know anatole seems different.
If BBT flips scum, I would look towards pressuring TTH and Ruffling.
Wake, please help progress the game, as your posts make a lot of sense to be honest.

[Csareo]

I would rather lynch BBT, and have greyice replace out (so we can question the new player).
I'm not as sure about that wagon, but I haven't seen BBT flip to that wagon yet.
Here's his vote history.

BBT Vote History

He actually voted TTH before this reaction, but it could of been motivated by two things (from a scum mindset)
1. I'm afraid of TTH outing me as scum
2. TTH is my scumbuddy, and we are fooling people by disalligning ourselves \

Have been very open to the idea that he posted the Scum PM. I can't be certain of anything though, and I am not strongly scum reading TTH.

VOTE: TTH

I'm a neighbor with BBT and from the pregame chatter coupled with the opening vote while lacking a forthcoming explanation, I'm already very distrusting of him.

VOTE: BBT

I guess I'm wondering, "Why was it TTH?"
BBT, who said he voted TTH because he thought she was scum from a pre-topic

Very interesting. You knew I suspected you right? That's why you've come out all guns blazing on me. Opening vote? It's RVS, is there a reason you're so paranoid?

I believe TTH slipped to me in the neighbour thread. It looked like she was replying to somebody else with the way she started her message. I think she knows she slipped and is trying to get me out of the way.

You're fucking kidding me, right? This is scummy as hell, because a player who has evidence from a PT that another player may be scum, should JUSTIFY that vote, instead of saying nothing and letting it pass as a naked RVS vote.

Wake88 put forward a scenario of TTH covering her ass, but IMHO, I think BBT was the one reacting from TTH.
@Ruffling- Partly why I thought he forged the PT

All this talk of whether neighbours have pre-game chat is ridiculous.

Every game I have played in I have had pre-game chat if my role allows for it. It's usually quite short as you only have as long as it takes for the majority/everyone to confirm for the game. When that's done, the chat is closed.

Boon's 93 was awful.

Anatole lying is also pretty bad.

VOTE: Anatole

This was a real kicker. 9 posts into the game, and he completely drops his scum read on TTH to pursue anatole, before greyice or anatole had been questioned even ONCE if what was said is even true. Really, you expect us to buy into this bullshit?
Then here's what really set me off. TTH only had ONE post in defense of herself, and BAM, BBT unvotes.
Only question I'm wondering, is if this was a buddy scenario being executed???
Then he town reads him...

This guy knows what he is talking about.

AK, where are you at right now? Who are you scum-reading?

Look, TTH posts once after the unvote and we have this

I think she is town

And here he jumps on a weak inactive wagon.

@doogal - what question have you asked me?

@scrambles - great contribution so far. Have a vote

VOTE: Scrambles
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is no

I didn't even scum read him until this post. It became clear he was trying to get a quick and cheap lynch.
Then after jumping on a cheap attack against wake over him missing a post, he casts another cheap vote AFTER the pressure shifted to himself rather than wake, which is a reactionary tell.

Maybe this vote will.

VOTE: Wake88
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everythin

Look at this lovely justification

Because I think you're scum.

Now he reverses his word and scum reads TTH, after the Wake88 wagon fails. Oppurtunistic and reactionary again...

Why is it useless?

It's almost as good as a mason except you obviously don't know the other person's alignment. If there is scum in the neighbour thread, I can assure you that it's TTH.

Also, if TTH is scum, it should guarantee me some time in this game because as soon as I'm lynched/killed and flip town, TTH is like auto lynched after that.

Then he has the audacity to say this...

Csareo, you've been vote-hopping all over this game. Trying to decide which lynch looks achievable?

Kissing up to wake here again, looking for his oppurtunistic wagon

Here are my thoughts;

VOTE: Csareo

GJ on VC Wake.

Look what he said a couple of posts before he voted for me...

After reviewing;

Csareo's posting hasn't been too bad.

I could happily vote Rufflig or Flubber. Flubber was completely off my radar. He looks just as bad as Scrambles. Would happily lynch either of them right now.

Now, after all this shit, he is ready for a lynch on these two? After flubber defends his wagons that is.
I can't find the final post, but after Boonskies votes for BBT, BBT decides to scum read Boonskies.

Either the worst town player, ever, or scum. Take your gambit.

[Csareo]

There is convincing evidence BBT and TTH are on the same team, but it is mostly speculative.

[Csareo]

I guess the convincing parts are the evidence that support the speculation, although like everything else in this game, nothing is certain.

[Csareo]

So ... we call this "confbias" in this game, and it's not actual evidence.

Confirmation bias is something else entirely. It is affirmation because others do so as well, which isn't the case here.

[Csareo]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Boon

Can we PLEASE kill him now?

[Csareo]

Can we PLEASE kill him now?

You should relax. I'm town.

You've not done ONE single thing to prove that. You should try, and I mean with all your energy, to convince us to lynch a someone better.

[Csareo]

Why?

[Csareo]

Justify the read. Now.

[Csareo]

Justify the read. Now.

Can you ISO me?

If you can't find why I think Boon is scum, I'll quote it for you.

I've read nearly everyone's ISO.
Justify the vote.

[Csareo]

You should ISO me now.

See if you can find it.

I promise it's there.

What kind of fucking game is this? I read your ISO many times. More than anyone in this thread.
It is a bunch of vote flips and reads. Justify the vote.

[Csareo]

I'll BRB.
Justify the vote by the time I get back.

[Csareo]

That's the only reason you have for voting him? Dude, bear with me.
I could understand a player like massive casting a vote, as he hasn't abused the vote function, but you've flopped around so many times.
There is no logical reason why we shouldn't lynch you, unless you can provide a VERY good case that I can get behind.

[Csareo]

Honestly, I'm a bit lost in this game. I reread the whole game three times, yet am unable to remember things or muster enough analytical might to bring issues to the forefront. And when I do find time then another irl crisis or challenge happens. Gonna put some music on and read over the game again.

It really helps me when posts are short and succinct. Otherwise it's tough keeping it all in the short-term memory.

Just tell us your thoughts on BBT.
Focus on the key players for now.

No pressure to be perfect now. This stage is really more for figuring the game out.

[Csareo]

I can sympathize with players who are having a bad day, but this is looking a little like an appeal to emotion.

[Csareo]

It isn't ATE?

OK. Don't lynch me because I'm town.

Someone give me a good case to sheep so I can get myself together for D2.

Now I'm in No-Man's-Land and I don't know what to do.

Just waiting for ruffling to hop in and defend you.

[Csareo]

I've read enough of your past games to know your meta is off.
You're usually extremely eager to scum hunt, have a high activity volume, and are constantly asking questions.
I'm not seeing any of that here. You remind me of my time as noob scum.

Sheeping every wagon, being reactionary to those who scum read me, lots of ATE.
My biggest scum tell is extreme theme analysis to fake scum hunting, but that doesn't really apply here.

[Csareo]

That was also your first game. Ever.

[Csareo]

Meta is an okay tool. When you play with people for a long time, you can tell when something is off.
I'm using the meta change as more of a "supporting reason" on why we should lynch you.

Far from my main case.

[Csareo]

Look, enough with this. If you are town, then you would stop defending your worthless ass, and catch some scum.
Something you haven't been doing most of this game. Until then, I strongly encourage everyone to lynch you.

[Csareo]

I think we should wait for a scrambles or greyice replacement before lynching. I hate having two players completely quit out on this game, right before a major lynch.

[Csareo]

Reason is telling me BBT is scum.
My gut is saying he's 100% idiot town.

Not trusting my gut on this one, which is why I REALLY want the replacements to enter this game.

[Csareo]

Reason is telling me BBT is scum.
My gut is saying he's 100% idiot town.

Not trusting my gut on this one, which is why I REALLY want the replacements to enter this game.

Your second statement is semi-true. I'm not an idiot though, just having a bad game.

I don't like how you keep affirming these things.
ATE never works, I guarantee it.

[Csareo]

I would like him to claim now, rather than L-1.

[Csareo]

It is ATE, or why else would you even respond to that post?

[Csareo]

@Wake- Why would there even be three scum in a 9 player game? That's imbalanced from my POV.

[Csareo]

I don't like the "If Csareo is scum, wake is town".
If I flip town, then what, you'll lynch wake.
It seems to "scum motivated", and in actuality, there's nothing to support this line of reasoning.

Other thoughts on greencrayon's post.

- w/r/t TTH versus BBT, the annoyed neighbors, I would perfer lynching TTH. But if we're only going off of the fact that they are neighbors, and TTH's third post in the QT, I don't want to lynch either.

Is this all you have to say on the matter? Like seriously? And there is nothing substantial to indicate TTH as scum. Nothing reliable.
While there has been multitude's of evidence on BBT. If you want to prove that TTH is a better alternative to the main wagon, then it's up to you to develop a better case.

Anatole and Flubber look and feel town.

This is an associative tell, since I was scum reading flubber, and Anatole appears to be alligned with BBT, a major scum read.

Wake comes out looking worse by being super active about things ranging from really inane points to bad theories to blatant misunderstanding of what Anatole is saying. Is this wake's "divisive" play style TTH went on about? Ultimately looks like town versus town, but ~*~ who knows ~*~ .

First of all, you're making this bullshit up. Anatole was being outright ridiculous, and Wake didn't make one theory that whole time.
Name ONE theory wake made in that two page argument, I would LOVE to see it.

I'm going to throw Rufflig into the maybe town bag, as well.

Please justify this read. Seriously, justify it.

What is exactly your case on me? An associative tell on wake, and one false statement?
And what makes even less since, is your comment that if I'm scum wake is town.

My friend, that is the contradiction of the day.

If your case is built on me buddying with wake, why would wake be town if I flip scum

?
Obvious what just happened, you know I'll flip town, and will have a base reason to lynch wake tommorow.
Scum fuck ups are hilarious, aren't they.

[Csareo]

That contradiction was so outright blatant.
Please lynch him tommorow, as I'll probs be NK'd

[Csareo]

What supports my line of reasoning of if Csareo is scum, then wake is likely town? That would be your blatant buddying with wake.

If you flip town, that is a null on wake's alignment.

Your buddying is you attempting to align yourself with another player, which is scummy

.

That would NORMALLY be true, except there is a major flaw in your logic, which is the fact that you are scum reading wake.
Which is why your "buddy case" is both bullshit and a scumtell. Buddying is a very light tell, and is speculative because there are so many reasons it could be happening.
Let's not forget, we also have to be in agreement the action is buddying.

Scum can buddy with scum. Town can buddy with town. Scum can buddy with town. Associative tells are only indicative at end of the game.
The underlined is speculative bullshit, and you have no way of proving that was my intention (and I don't even think I was buddying).

Very basic scum play 101. Don't know why you're making convoluted and wrong extrapolations from that (that if you flip scum, somehow that means diddly about wake's alignment). Unless if you're scum, trying to be angry about something that isn't even a thing.

Except your whole case relies on the broken premise that I am proven scum (and buddying is the only half ass charge brought forward).
Making a case just on buddying is silly and amatuer.

[Csareo]

Greencrayons, I would need to scum read ruffles and anatole by your logic, because they're buddying with BBT.
Fortunately, associative tells are a bullshit reason to lynch someone before a flip happens.

[Csareo]

What do you think constitutes buddying.
Also, you ignored several questions asked of you in my post. Why did you ignore my other questions/requests?

[Csareo]

It's . . . as if . . . my basis for voting you . . . was not confined to only your buddying of wake. Heh.


I'm not reading wake as scum, so that's a cool misrep. (In 600 I said he looks like possible town.)


I'm not going to get into a quote war with you. A lot of your little snips about my post are misconstruing what I said, misunderstanding what I said, or are really not important.

Justify ALL your reads, and tell me what you think of BBT's wishywashy voting patterns.

[Csareo]

Respond to my case. Why the hell did you vote for me over an associative tell.
You seem certain my intention was to buddy with a townie, yet this only makes sense if...
1. Wake is proven town
2. Csareo is proven scum
3. Csareo's intention was to be apart of a town bloc

A speculative and unsupported vote justification. Especially since wake wasn't the "town pinnacle" when I supposedly buddied with him.
Wouldn't I have rather joined anatole and flubber to join a three person bloc.
The logic is broken, and requires immediate explanation.

[Csareo]

I think you scum slipped, and hard.

[Csareo]

w/r/t justifying ALL my reads (thanks for the caps now I now you didn't mean only some of them):

Uh, no? It's not relevant or helpful to go into full detail about how I feel about every single player, and why. It makes for pretty good fodder for scum to make a big fuss about irrelevant discussion, though.

I am scum hunting, and it is not relevant. This question is extremely important to me, and how I read you.
Why are you trying to impede me scum hunting? I really need your help here, so justify the reads.

Man you're really trying to make this buddying thing harder than it actually is.

No, I'm really not.
You made an accusation that had no evidence or logic behind it. I could call you scum, but without evidence, the reasoning is bullshit.
Now would you pressure me on why I accused someone of being scum without evidence? I would, as it's a well known scum tell.
Making baseless accusations and saying they're certain is a "scum tell".
Coming into the game 25 pages in and making naked reads is a "scum tell".

Be cooperative, and this will go over a lot easier.

[Csareo]

Post Edit

and it is relevant

[Csareo]

You stole the words right from my mouth. Or you're repeating what I said.
I think the contrary, as my posts aren't the easiest to decipher

[Csareo]

You forgot to justify your reads on doogal and ruffling.
As for the wake thing, that's just plain ridiculous.
Did you ever care to think I simply agreed with Wake and not Anatole?

@TTH-I think your reads have switched on me a couple times. Are you still scum reading me? (I believe that was implicated earlier)

[Csareo]

You're just taking things and saying they are scum
"Greyice is scum because his reaction was fake"
"Your buddying was scum"
"Downright adorable scum melodrama"

I'm not buying into the bullshit you're spewing.
Is it arrogance that keeps you from admitting you're wrong, or the fact that BBT's about to be sweeped?

[Csareo]

Can someone make a VC?

[Csareo]

So, you use meta to support your argument, but you disregard any meta that completely contradicts the case you're trying to push right? This, this is why meta is such a shit tool for scum-hunting. It's so subjective.

I didn't use meta. ATE is not a meta tell, it's a general scum tell.

[Csareo]

The fact that greencrayons and ruffling refuse to elaborate on BBT show's he's being protected.
Especially after all the scummy things he's done. If I had to follow my gut, I would say I'm being wagoned simply to give resistance to the BBT lynch.
I have been pushing it the hardest. The guy, has litterally been the biggest, and most scummy player on the forums, but he manages to stay alive.

Ignoring his blatant meta switch-up, he's succumbing to wishy washy voting and ATE. I have played this game for a long time, and it all feels so amatuer scum.

[Csareo]

So, you use meta to support your argument, but you disregard any meta that completely contradicts the case you're trying to push right? This, this is why meta is such a shit tool for scum-hunting. It's so subjective.

I didn't use meta. ATE is not a meta tell, it's a general scum tell.

I've read enough of your past games to know your meta is off.

Meta is an okay tool. When you play with people for a long time, you can tell when something is off.
I'm using the meta change as more of a "supporting reason" on why we should lynch you.

This is you not using meta then?

You responded to a quote regarding ATE. Which is a general scum tell that has nothing to do with meta.

[Csareo]

Regardless, you're still using meta to support my lynch right?

I'm asking why you're ignoring meta that contradicts your case.

What the hell are you talking about? What contradicts my case?
99% of my case is supported by non-meta reasons.

[Csareo]

Wow, you're so difficult.

You said you were using meta to support your push for my lynch. I quoted this.

I then asked you earlier, and I am asking again now, why you're ignoring meta that contradicts your case. Such as when I pointed you to Newbie 1495 where I was scum and played nothing like I am playing this game.

If you're going to use meta to support your push for my lynch, you should be able to justify it.

Will you just fucking tell me what meta contradicts my case?
I didn't bring newbie 1495 up, you did.

I don't consider meta evidence that the person who we're discussing gives me. That's like saying "I'm town because I played like I am in X"

[Csareo]

and I would expect that if you voted based only on HARD FACTS that you would not play much Mafia.

Did you hear what I said about speculation? All lynches are based on it, but there is a degree of supporting evidence that can back a theory.
A theory that has no supporting evidence or "reason" isn't a very wise theory.

There is nothing to support greencrayon's theory, and I explained earlier why it wouldn't make sense for scum. Now why are we even considering some bullshit associative tell on D1?

[Csareo]

Oh my fucking.......... this idiot....... this ignorant, foolish idiot, has flipped votes again.
Rage quitting for awhile.

[Csareo]

Well, first, let me ask this.
You're voting me because I made, in your eyes, a false statement?
Reality check, being wrong isn't a scum tell.

I want this idiot to die. I almost moved my vote off him several times, but every time I go to post an unvote, he does some stupid shit like this again. I am "just" scum reading him over Greencrayons, do alone to the sheer magnitude of scum tells taking place.

[Csareo]

No, you're not consistent. It's wishy washy voting, with a classic touch of ultra reaction.
You're trying to join any wagon that has any chance of lynching.... that isn't you.

Name one thing you've done to hunt scum this game? Name one thing you've done besides defend yourself, and act like a complete and utter fool?

[Csareo]

What do you want me to defend?
Pro Tip: Unlike you, I don't freak out when someone scum reads me. It isn't my job to defend myself.
As a townie, my only focus is on hunting scum.

[Csareo]

And you still haven't told me what meta you're reffering to.
You keep changing the subject, and repeating yourself "My meta argument contradicts your case so you must be scum lulz"

[Csareo]

If BBT is scum, he really needs to shut the hell up.
If he's town (which isn't likely) , he would probably stand a better chance if he shuts the hell up.

[Csareo]

Are you serious with this question right here? You can't be. I know you can't be. This can't be a legit question. No, no it isn't. You're trolling me. You must be trolling me. I know I've already answered this question before and you even replied to my answer. I know it. I'm not crazy. I took my pills today. I...took...my...pills

Serious question, this is only the

third

time I've asked you.

[Csareo]

Everytime I ask what meta you're referring to, you repeat yourself.
You're hesitant to actually answer the question.
Am I missing something?

[Csareo]

Who is trolling and flaming? And please, contribute wake.

[Csareo]

This is nothing like my scum game, which tbh, I haven't been able to test on this site.
@Wake and Massive - My vote on BBT has almost nothing to do with the neighborhood at this point, but I'm still really suspicious.
BBT reminds me of what I was like as noob scum

[Csareo]

I don't feel like TTH has really engaged with me at all.

Don't put that on me.

The only thing you've bothered to do with me is put on a tin-foil hat and talk about this flight of fancy where BBT

and I copied from the scum PT

.

[Csareo]

Can we lynch BBT and TTH now.
LMAO, that was a scum slip I've made in the past before, during MYLO

[Csareo]

Oh, after reading that, it is clear that wasn't a slip, but an accusation TTH thought wake was making.

[Csareo]

Massive, your case is so fucking stupid.
Scum Slip=Csareo not making sense.

I got town lynched for the same reason on another game for that same line of reasoning.

[Csareo]

Massive's push on you isn't unreasonable, and is actually hardly existent.
Not clear on why you are overeacting.

Now his case on me was shit. "Csareo is scum because AK+TTH scum pair doesn't make sense, yada yada"

[Csareo]

In response to GC vs Flubber, of course he isn't going to lynch me until I make a "Stupid scum slip"
Mafia isn't played by assuming everyone is scum right off the bat, therefore executing a blind lynch.

Now stop acting like a dunce, and find actual scum.

[Csareo]

I don't feel like TTH has really engaged with me at all.

Don't put that on me.

The only thing you've bothered to do with me is put on a tin-foil hat and talk about this flight of fancy where BBT and I copied from

the

scum PT.

Back to this quote, there is actually a handy trick to catch a lie.
Refer to the highlighted word.

Although I'm not scum reading TTH solely on this.

[Csareo]

Did I lie anywhere? Did Wake's theory involve BBT and I copying from

the

scum PT or did it not?

You did it again. Believe me, this is a real life trip.
If you are accused of doing something, someone telling the truth would reply in the third tense "...and I copying from

a

scum PT"
You stated it using "

the

", which signifies that the person being questioned is confirming its existence, and regarding the context in which you said it, I am awfully suspicious you may be in it as well.

Then again, this is all just psychology theory.

[Csareo]

I haven't pushed a "TTH is scum" stance for a long time.
Actually, a few posts up, I noted that I'm not scum reading her.

[Csareo]

I also reffered to the idea that one of them is scum, and not the other, shortly after making the accusation of them being scum buddies.
Your case is broken.

[Csareo]

The only post that has been accused of not making sense, is the one where I made a case on AK, and refrenced several possible alliances.
Ruffling and Massive have made there entire case on that post, and I conceded I was wrong very shortly after.

Wrong does not equal scum. So yes, any townies seeing the case on me should be frustrated.

[Csareo]

@Boonskies- There are millions of scenarios. One prominent one involves greencrayon being scum, and I'm not completely sure about that theory.
But my strongest speculations point to BBT being scum, and I'm not scum reading TTH.

She's been null for a long time now.

[Csareo]

Well, there's something that's been bugging me, and it's that this is a normal game.
TTH, where do you live (country, state)? Weird but important question.

[Csareo]

For some reason when I said that, I thought we were in mayfair club.
Since the last game I had w/ doctor pepper was in there.

[Csareo]

Massive, I haven't been bringing up a "fake neighborhood" since the first couple of pages.
It's you who keeps vomitting it back up.

[Csareo]

The stupidity and ignorance of the players in this game is mindblowing.
Greencrayons, your case is still shit. I'm sorry, it is.
How many times has a town read of yours been scum read by another player? Maybe, people use different cognitive processes when determining their reads.

[Csareo]

I agree with my good friend bullish. People on this site don't actually know how to play mafia.
Every game I've played has accumulated in terrible D1 town lynches based on such things as associative tells and "being wrong"
Literally EVERY game I've played in thus far, there has been one townie lynched on the grounds that he doesn't make sense.

Do any of you know what an actual scum tell is?

[Csareo]

I have 117 posts. Which is suicide, because players with 117 posts are always mislynched.
As much as I would love to scum read GC and Massive right now, it isn't likely they're scum.
There are two possibilities that make sense to me now.
1. BBT is scum and two of the people voting me are reacting to my push
2. BBT is town, and scum are defending both me and him to be apart of a town bloc if we are mislynched

Take your pick. I am thinking more along the linesw of option one, considering how scummy BBT looks.
Greencrayons, why are you town reading BBT?

[Csareo]

If I had to guess, there is inactive + lurking scum in this game.

[Csareo]

Do any of you know what an actual scum tell is?

I can't speak for everyone else in the game, but I certainly don't. Actually, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that there isn't such a thing.

I encourage you to look at this, and ask me again why I might be concerned about BBT.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ding_Mafia

[Csareo]

Let's get something straight.
The ONLY two people I would consider lynching today are BBT and maybe massive.
I am null reading/town reading everyone else.
I am suspicious of a few people reacting to BBT's wagon, but they're null until there is an actual flip.

[Csareo]

@Boonskies-Wake was town, but he hasn't posted in awhile so I just reset my read on him.
I prefer to not look at people as "town" and "Scum"
We might fall into the same trap greencrayons and ruffling are in.
"You're scum for scum reading town" "You're town for scum reading scum"

The case is so petty and ridiculous. Associative tells are as bad as meta, just stop.
How many times have I heard this bullshit from scum? "You are going against a town objective blah blah" "You're scum for voting blah blah"
Make it end please. The ignorance really hurts.

[Csareo]

Hold on, I'm making one last case for BBT.
I'm honestly giving up if it falls on deaf ears.

[Csareo]

I have found it difficult to play true mafia on this site.
In my experience, the best way to find scum on D1 is to look for patterns.
A scum tell, in reality, is a pattern that mafia often makes.
And yes, just like meta, it isn't always objective, but they do always exist.
The trick is to look at players and see if they repeat certain behaviors.
"Pressure X and react Y"
If the player repeats such actions to the point where a pattern is established, then you can begin to use that knowledge to either town read or scum read other players.
Now as much as I would like to buy into this funny game of "associative tells" and all that fun jazz, it isn't in our best interests to keep thinking so short shortsightedly.

The main reason I want to lynch BBT is because I discovered a firm pattern, that is being repeated over and over.
Now hear my case, and hear it well.

BBT has a tendency to do the same things over and over. When a player starts to tunnel him, he reacts by voting the player that is putting on the pressure (TTH, Wake88, Csareo, boon).
As soon as the player tunneling relaxes pressure, or the push seems to be counter intuitive, BBT proceeds to join an opportunistic wagon (scrambles, boon, anatole, tth again, me twice, once opportunistic)
It has also became clear that the same players start becoming active whenever he begins to be tunneled again (massive, greencrayons, ruffles)
In addition to this three way pattern we have saw dozens of times already, there is a shockingly similar transparency between two cases, "ruffles and green crayons".
This pattern alone warrants a policy lynch just to unearth the scum on his wagon.
At this rate, the only possibilities left are "BBT is town being protected by scum, or scum being protected by scum.
Now the only reason I doubt this LOR, is because there are two strong wagons right now, and if scum were trying to establish a town bloc on a player, it wouldn't of happened in this context (given I know I'm town).

Which leaves one possibility. BBT is scum being protected by other scum players. It is the only thing that makes sense.
Scum are always trying to form in a town bloc, and the only time that changes is when they need to defend scum against town.
Right now, with two wagons going on, you better be sure one of us is scum, and I know that isn't me.

[Csareo]

In other words, there are two wagons going on, and on D1, usually one would of been tipped by scum now.
They've had about a dozen pages to defend either me or BBT, and usually at this point scum would just finish one of the players off, and have a solid town read simply for defending a now dead townie.
I highly doubt scum would draw it out for this long, which makes me believe scum are defending one of the two wagons.

Given the shit cases being thrown at me, and the multitude of scum tells committed by BBT, it is clear who we have to lynch.
At this point, we're pretty much fighting an uphill battle to get scum to finally bus.

[Csareo]

@Boonskies, I don't think it's even a question at this point.
Scum knows who town is. Usually scum try to defend a townie before he is mislynched, and join in the middle of the wagon, or near the end.
The static wagon is fishy, and it could only be the work of a reactionary mafia team or inactive scum.

If BBT does flip town, then it is probably a result of inactive scum.

[Csareo]

Never, has this kind of deadlock happened on D1 and one of the wagons not be scum.
I trust the players to work out the obv scum.
Of course, many players are also guilty of relying on associative tells. Wake,GC, and Ruffling being among them.

[Csareo]

I'm also worried that if BBT does flip scum, I'll be NK'd.

[Csareo]

It's pointless to point fingers before a flip has been decided.
I've complained enough about GC and Ruffling's associative tells already.
But if BBT flipped scum, I would look closely at GC and Massive.
Went back and forth on ruffling, not sure, so null, kind of town.

There's a chance that GC joined late, and found my post activity an easy way to justify a vote.
Then got stubborn and didn't back down when questioned. I noticed her entry gave BBT more vigor.
Massive has me the wrong way though.

Again, if BBT flips town, it is do to an inactive scum team. Yet this isn't likely do to the reasons we are scum reading BBT.
It seems greyice shut out of the game. If a townie slips he goes inactive, and when mafia slips, they get stubborn.

[Csareo]

@Boonskies, I guess it is possible, just very unlikely.
As you said, both wagons are standing strong in their votes (despite how stupid one of them is).
Don't you feel scum would of switched wagons already, 32 pages in with both wagons at L-2?
There is a pattern in what BBT does and how the people voting me react.
That seals my theory that BBT is being defended by scum.

[Csareo]

Actually, fuck it, why don't me and BBT just claim now?

[Csareo]

Lol, well I was actually seeing if I could catch BBT offguard, given he's active around 6 am, and I thought no one would remind him in the next 4 hours.

[Csareo]

Let's not even mention the neighborhood again. That's a mess I'm going to try and forget.
It is simply to confusing...... and the players are already, obviously confused.

[Csareo]

Csareo, you don't have to worry about me flipping scum. It's not going to happen, but you already know that. Amirite?

I would guess the scum are on my wagon and trying to push my lynch

through before Csareo's

.

Okay, so here is exactly why you're being scum read.
You make a statement accusing me of being scum, but also claim scum is both trying to push a lynch on you...... then me?
Not only does that line of reasoning contradict itself, and your vote on me, but it straight up doesn't make sense

All that aside, this is another mistake not to different from TTH's. It heavily implicates that you are well aware of a scum motivated push on me.

[Csareo]

Okay, so here is exactly why you're being scum read.
You make a statement accusing me of being scum, but also claim scum is both trying to push a lynch on you...... then me?
Not only does that line of reasoning contradict itself, and your vote on me, but it straight up doesn't make sense

All that aside, this is another mistake not to different from TTH's. It heavily implicates that you are well aware of a scum motivated push on me.

Can you read?

I said scum are trying to push my lynch through before yours. That is to say, scum are trying to make sure I am lynched D1, and not you. Capiche?

The word "before" implies that I'll be lynched after. Does it not?

[Csareo]

Which is admitting I'm not scum...... yet you have a vote on me.

[Csareo]

*Yawn* at semantics.

I just told you what I meant.

Could this be evidence that you're a troll?
Answer the question. You said that scum are pushing a lynch on you

before

me.
Are you saying scum are going to lynch me after you?
And if so, why are you voting for me?

[Csareo]

This changes things.

[Csareo]

He left, not suprising.
His silence, and lack of an unvote, clearly signal that his vote was 100% reactionary.
He said that scum want to lynch him D1,

before

they lynch me. This is the same implication slip I accused TTH of earlier, except it is a little more established.

[Csareo]

@TTH, did BBT leave ANYTHING out of the PT?

[Csareo]

2) Yes, the moderator himself posted in there.

Why were certain posts omitted out?
Can you show us the rest?
@Wake-Did you ever talk to the list mod about copying PT's

[Csareo]

It seems greencrayon's is dropping her earlier logic to support a meagre policy lynch.
Unless it is on the grounds of inactivity, a policy lynch is usually a scum motivated lynch.
Now the better question, is why is he starting a one sided tunnel as soon as I join the game?
This is what has me really worked up.
Greengrayons refuses to answer certain questions about his case, is very selective about what he attacks, and the only player he even mentioned this game was "csareo".
The original case was "Csareo is scum for tunneling a town read", and he must of realized how stupid that is, because it's now "let's policy lynch Csareo for tunneling village idiots".
Everything that comes out of his mouth is a mess. If he really is missing the sheer amount of scum slips being committed by BBT, then he's simply ignorant.
By his logic, we should policy lynch BBT to uncover the sheer amount of association tells he made.

But let's get back to the suspicious stuff. Something is really off about this wagon. The people defending BBT have been committing every scum slip in the book (excluding ruffling).
Not only do their cases refuse to make sense, but they are one sided and based on a confirmation that BBT is already town. Instead of anaylzing BBT's actions, which is something I've only seen ruffling do so far, they go on this one sided trip to tunnel me for tunneling him. Let's put two and two together. They're either "stupid as shit" or have scum motivation to protect BBT.

Let's look back to the pattern I found with BBT.

BBT has a tendency to do the same things over and over. When a player starts to tunnel him, he reacts by voting the player that is putting on the pressure (TTH, Wake88, Csareo, boon).
As soon as the player tunneling relaxes pressure, or the push seems to be counter intuitive, BBT proceeds to join an opportunistic wagon (scrambles, boon, anatole, tth again, me twice, once opportunistic)
It has also became clear that the same players start becoming active whenever he begins to be tunneled again (massive, greencrayons, ruffles)
In addition to this three way pattern we have saw dozens of times already, there is a shockingly similar transparency between two cases, "ruffles and green crayons".
This pattern alone warrants a policy lynch just to unearth the scum on his wagon.
At this rate, the only possibilities left are "BBT is town being protected by scum, or scum being protected by scum.
Now the only reason I doubt this LOR, is because there are two strong wagons right now, and if scum were trying to establish a town bloc on a player, it wouldn't of happened in this context (given I know I'm town)

.

And this post summarized the fishiness of the two static wagons

In other words, there are two wagons going on, and on D1, usually one would of been tipped by scum now.
They've had about a dozen pages to defend either me or BBT, and usually at this point scum would just finish one of the players off, and have a solid town read simply for defending a now dead townie.
I highly doubt scum would draw it out for this long, which makes me believe scum are defending one of the two wagons.

[Csareo]

I didn't say scum would move onto Csareo. I said scum are trying to lynch me before Csareo gets lynched.

WTF does that mean, as you'te pretty much implying I'm town who's going to be lynched.
And you have a vote on me.

[Csareo]

okay, that makes sense

[Csareo]

if you're on a mind to do so, please link to one (or, even better, several) of your scum games. I know you said that they have all been offsite, but I don't think simply linking to a completed, offsite game violates any MS rules.

No, for two reasons...
1. Meta isn't abundantly relevant right now
2. I want to establish a new clean meta
I can tell you a bit how I used to play as scum though. I would excessively anaylze theme in order to trick town into thinking I'm scum hunting, associate myself in favorable town blocs, and do risky pushes on my scum buddy while they're it L-3/L-4(not the early into the game like most noob scum).
In B.E 1601 "Little Italy", I stated that if you think I'm scum, I'm probably town, and this wasn't me being gloated. My record as scum IS far more desirable than it is as town.
I actually pride myself on not making mistakes as scum, so I generally am more careful of what I post. Losing as scum hurts my ego far more than losing as town.

This is the second time in recent memory that you've mentioned favorably voting for players who are lurking. How do you feel about the pressure BBT got early in the game for wanting to vote for lurkers:

Yet I never actually pushed a vote, or even a case on lurkers, have I? BBT isn't scummy for wanting to lynch inactives, but it's the fact that he kept reverting back to policy lynches while undergoing a tunnel, which is what is really suspicous.
I'm not a fan of your selective quoting either, just to make that clear.

[Csareo]

Editing my terrible spelling

I can tell you a bit how I used to play as scum though. I would excessively anaylze theme in order to trick town into thinking I'm scum hunting, associate myself in favorable town blocs, and do risky pushes on my scum buddy while they're at L-3/L-4(not early into the game like most noob scum).

[Csareo]

Greencrayons, if you are town, then I would like to give you some advice.
Over relying on association as you were in your early case is a bad idea.
Association is near useless D1. Actually, it is anti utillity and anti town to be doing pushes based on association until at least one scum has been uncovered.
Skilled players can sometimes successfully deduct association out of a town flip, and I'll be honest when I say I'm not to good at that myself, but this is just one of the many flaws I see in your cognitive processes.
Basically you're reaching conclusions based on false premises, IE, your train of thought never had an established truth to work off of.
Let's pretend like this wasn't a common scum tell, everything always reaches the same broken statement, "Csareo is scum because he is wrong about X, and I know I'm right, therefore he is scum". "Csareo is scum reading X, and I'm town reading him, and I know I'm right, so Csareo is scum.

As I said, we all use different methods to reach different conclusions, and it isn't very wise to scum read people simply because they don't reach conclusions in the same manner you do.
Which is why I'm not falling into your logic trap and scum reading you. As far as I'm concerned, you're misguided/stubborn town if BBT flips non-mafia, and scummy if he flips mafia.
It isn't 100% indicative, but that is when association tells really start to count for something. Now I wish you would stop being stubborn, and drop your retarded case. Is retaining your pride that worth it?

Now if you wouldn't mind, I would appreciate it if you restate your case on me, so I can refute every fallacy in it, in a timely manner.

[Csareo]

The point of my question was how do you feel about the players criticizing BBT for voting lurkers, not your well known feelings about BBT.

He shouldn't be criticized for looking towards lurkers, but anatole got on his ass after he was already being tunnelled, and it looked like he was starting an opportunistic scrambles wagon.
I don't always think policy lynching lurkers on D1 is a good idea, mainly because I noticed that scum latch on to inactives whenever they are under solid pressure, and the sad thing is that it usually works.

[Csareo]

I'm not linking games offsite, but that shouldn't stop you from answering this....

Now if you wouldn't mind, I would appreciate it if you restate your case on me, so I can refute every fallacy in it, in a timely manner

I play on mafiascum now so I have a fresh start from my past games. Please respect that.

[Csareo]

And I would appreciate it if you actually defend your case this time. There is a repeating pattern of you making a fallacious case, me refuting it, you disappearing, making a new case, rinse and repeat.

[Csareo]

BTW, I'm a little fucking mad that you dropped 80% of my questions.
A big one was "who else are you scumreading besides me"?

[Csareo]

Let's see what we have.
First post is about buddying with wake
Second post is about buddying with wake
Third post is me tunneling BBT
Fourth post is again about me tunneling BBT
Is there anything I haven't went over? I believe I spent entire pages refuting the stupidity of both accusations (I KNOW I spent a whole page refuting wake buddying)

Still, three questions you keep putting off. Why are you town reading BBT? Why am I scum for scum reading BBT? Who else besides me are you scum reading.
I'm not letting you put off the scum reads one, you need to tell me now. I don't believe I"m your only scum read.

[Csareo]

For the love of Krishnu, I can't believe I'm accused of grasping for straws on BBT.
It is you who's grasping for straws on me.

[Csareo]

So wishy washy voting wasn't scummy?
The reactive arguments weren't scummy?
Even putting that aside, the tip off is how weird other people got when I put pressure on you.
They got weird and defensive, lighting up on me with shitty cases.

You pracitically agreed with me earlier that one of our two static wagons must be scum.
I find it odd that scum wouldn't of tipped one of the wagons if they weren't defending someone.
It is nearly confirmed that 2 scum are on either me or you, and I'm hoping others will see how it only makes sense if they're on me.

It really comes down to Anatole and Wake making a decision.
No pressure guys.

[Csareo]

Do we have a Vote Count yet?

I'm at L-3 and BBT is at L-2.

[Csareo]

You've reduced suspicions against you to "buddying" (in a generic sense, ignoring the fact that your response to the assertion is even more damming of your alignment than the initial assertion itself) and "tunneling," (ignoring the fact that it's not even tunneling which constitutes my suspicions as I've never suggested that you're suspicious for failing to have pursued players other than BBT).

Because you outright said I was buddying with wake, therefore I was scum.
Did you not say that. I'm certain you used near exact words.
Now you're claiming that the regurgitated accusation actually holds more merit than it is worth?

This, of course, which makes it super easy for you to dismiss my suspicions. Very convenient for you, you deserve a slow clap. Clap clap clap. But it's such a gross misrepresentation of what I have actually said that either you're scum just spewing BS or are so far gone that there's no way for me to even reach you.

That's because your suspicions don't make any sense. All your suspicions have been accusations of association.

Associative tells are shitty on D1

Why am I town reading BBT? I've responded to this question from you twice already. TWICE. And then an additional time to Jagged. READ THE THREAD.

Would you please remind me?

Why am I saying that you are scum for scum reading BBT? lol. this question belongs in an alternate reality, as it does not pertain to the game we're playing here in the real world. Your position on BBT is bad and wrong, but that doesn't make you scum, and I never said it does. The closest thing I've said to that is that you've pushed a really bad case against BBT as part of attempting to set up a one-two back-to-back lynch with BBT and TTH.

So your case is once again back to "Lynch Csareo because his case is bad"?

[Csareo]

Vote-hopping isn't scummy. What are the scum motivations behind doing that?

It actually is a huge one, and I'm sure others on this site can relate.
Wishy washy voting was my forte as noob scum.

[Csareo]

Scum usually vote hop so they can be apart of the lynching wagon.
In my expierience, they jump on the wagon in the middle.

[Csareo]

Wake, you need to commit to a decision.

[Csareo]

I have found it difficult to play true mafia on this site.
In my experience, the best way to find scum on D1 is to look for patterns.
A scum tell, in reality, is a pattern that mafia often makes.
And yes, just like meta, it isn't always objective, but they do always exist.
The trick is to look at players and see if they repeat certain behaviors.
"Pressure X and react Y"
If the player repeats such actions to the point where a pattern is established, then you can begin to use that knowledge to either town read or scum read other players.
Now as much as I would like to buy into this funny game of "associative tells" and all that fun jazz, it isn't in our best interests to keep thinking so short shortsightedly.

The main reason I want to lynch BBT is because I discovered a firm pattern, that is being repeated over and over.
Now hear my case, and hear it well.

BBT has a tendency to do the same things over and over. When a player starts to tunnel him, he reacts by voting the player that is putting on the pressure (TTH, Wake88, Csareo, boon).
As soon as the player tunneling relaxes pressure, or the push seems to be counter intuitive, BBT proceeds to join an opportunistic wagon (scrambles, boon, anatole, tth again, me twice, once opportunistic)
It has also became clear that the same players start becoming active whenever he begins to be tunneled again (massive, greencrayons, ruffles)
In addition to this three way pattern we have saw dozens of times already, there is a shockingly similar transparency between two cases, "ruffles and green crayons".
This pattern alone warrants a policy lynch just to unearth the scum on his wagon.
At this rate, the only possibilities left are "BBT is town being protected by scum, or scum being protected by scum.
Now the only reason I doubt this LOR, is because there are two strong wagons right now, and if scum were trying to establish a town bloc on a player, it wouldn't of happened in this context (given I know I'm town).

Which leaves one possibility. BBT is scum being protected by other scum players. It is the only thing that makes sense.
Scum are always trying to form in a town bloc, and the only time that changes is when they need to defend scum against town.
Right now, with two wagons going on, you better be sure one of us is scum, and I know that isn't me.

In other words, there are two wagons going on, and on D1, usually one would of been tipped by scum now.
They've had about a dozen pages to defend either me or BBT, and usually at this point scum would just finish one of the players off, and have a solid town read simply for defending a now dead townie.
I highly doubt scum would draw it out for this long, which makes me believe scum are defending one of the two wagons.

Given the shit cases being thrown at me, and the multitude of scum tells committed by BBT, it is clear who we have to lynch.
At this point, we're pretty much fighting an uphill battle to get scum to finally bus.

[Csareo]

This is frustrating. If I'm lynched, then all my faith in this site is lost.
It has been a long time since I got this motivated in a game, but I'm playing with litterally the worst and most stubborn mafia players even.
The shitty regurgitated cases on me are making me want to rip my skin off.

[Csareo]

I'm vanilla townie (that is not an allowance to lynch me), and BBT is supposedly a neighbor with TTH, confirmed by TTH.

[Csareo]

Is it okay to reference parts of the role PM for consistency on this site?
Some mafia sites are okay with that, but I'm not sure exactly how touchy people are here on that.

[Csareo]

Oh, just forgot that this site makes mods post the vanilla townie role pm at the begging.
This sucks because it makes it hard to confirm yourself with other vanilla townies.
The sites where I played didn't do that.

@Wake88- I'm not being anti town. The stubborn and clueless townies who use terrible logic and mafia theory are.

[Csareo]

That's definitely possible.
I'm not scum reading TTH or anyone defending him until he flips either scum or town (which I'm pretty confident he'll flip scum).
His affiliation will speak a lot for who's he's associated himself with.
If TTH and BBT were scum buddies though, wouldn't she of removed her vote off of him?

[Csareo]

I still want TTH to post the moderators opening post, although it is very possible it could be edited anyways.

Spoiler: Neighborhood PT

BBT:
Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:26 pm
Hey TTH,

Any plans on how to start the day?

TTH:
Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:36 pm
None

TTH
Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:19 pm
I haven't had any games with him, but I've read a couple games with Wake88 and I've seen his posts around the forum (particularly Mafia Discussion). To my understanding, he's a pretty divisive player.

Have you played with Wake88 before and how do you go about tackling a read like that?

BBT:
Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:35 pm
You haven't had any games with who?

I have no completed games with Wake so I have no idea how to approach him. Is there a reason you have specifically chosen Wake to speak about?

How many of the players do you know?

TTH:
Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:03 pm

In post 4, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:You haven't had any games with who?



Wake88

BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I have no completed games with Wake so I have no idea how to approach him. Is there a reason you have specifically chosen Wake to speak about?



Because from the games I have read of his, he's a particularly divisive player due to his... abrasiveness? I suppose that's the nice word for it.

BlueBloodedToffee wrote:How many of the players do you know?



I know you and Flubbernugget. I've read a couple GreyICE games.

[Csareo]

Csareo and BBT, since your heads are on the chopping block I'd like each of you to give some thorough reads.

I'm actually not worried about being lynched, as if I am, I'm sure people will eventually piece things together. I really want to see the BBT wagon out.
Massive has me the wrong way for lurking. I have concerns with those who are defending BBT, and the cases they are bringing forward.
They only make sense to me if BBT is scum, which is why I'm not accusing GC and Massive of anything until I see what BBT flips.

I am town reading Ruffling, Boonskies, and Anatole
I am scum reading BBT and gut on Flubber.
Everyone else is null until I see what BBT flips.

If BBT flips scum, then I'm looking at TTH, GC, and Massive
If he flips town, then I'll have to look at Boonskies.

[Csareo]

I don't get why a neighborhood PT before the game starts would be in existence. It seems extremely rare and unusual.
How many times would that ever be used, and why would the moderator feel the need to make one?

[Csareo]

And I'm ignoring BBT because I no longer have the motivation to deal with this.
He does have a point about flubber and doogal, but there is no assurance they are lurking.
Both of them haven't posted anywhere else on the site to my knowledge, and I wouldn't be suprised if they were as sick of this game as I am.

[Csareo]

http://rack.0.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDEz ... holson.gif
Eveytime he talks this is how I feel

[Csareo]

You are a shining look alike of American politicians.
When it doesn't make sense, resort to baseless rhetoric and repetition,
Which may be your meta...... oh wait, I can't use that.

[Csareo]

You're a hypocrite.

Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.

[Csareo]

I already gave my read on you.
You are null, although I played with the idea of a scum wake already.
See post #904 for my full set of reads.

[Csareo]

Wake, if you believe that to be true, then who do you think is aligned with each other?
To me, GC and massive would be aligned with BBT.
Boonskies would be aligned with me.
I would be aligned with boonskies.

I take it you had a similar train of thought?

[Csareo]

I'm not willing to lynch flubber today.
Have no idea if boonskies normally buddies with people, and tbh, I don't really care.
I've seen both town and scum form buddy relationships on D1, and it is no longer a scum slip to me for that very reason.

[Csareo]

The only people I'll lynch are Massive for lurking, and BBT to confirm those who are associating themselves with him.
Wake agreed with me on the static wagons, so he must also agree that whomever is siding with BBT or me, when either of us flips, is a clear representation of whom they are defending's affiliation.

[Csareo]

I don't know your meta, and I generally don't like to town read people.
A town read is something I'm not to good at. I can't explain a null read, can I?

[Csareo]

I guess BBT is right, I'm being a bit of a hypocrite.
I'll own up to that. I guess the only person I'm willing to lynch is BBT.

[Csareo]

Okay, I don't want to continue playing with BBT.
He's a straight up idiot. I'm restricting communication before I let this game stress me out and ruin my day.

[Csareo]

But here's my final question for him. Because it's the second time it has happened.
Both times you have accused me of commiting a fallacy for thinking one way but not another.
Both times you have also accused me of being scummy for admitting I was wrong, and you were right.

Is this another example of being wrong=being scummy?
Please say so if it is?

[Csareo]

Must. Control. Blood Pressure.

[Csareo]

Okay, wake, I'm game. I am null reading you because I have went back and forth on both town reads and scum reads.
Early into the game I town read you, because you reminded me of my town meta.
Eager to play, lots of detail, good post volume. I think most players were town reading you there.
Then you went inactive, kept saying you couldn't keep up with the game, and generally contributing nothing.

Much of the case on BBT fell on deaf ears with you. Therefore the scum read nulled out the town read.
Does that help?

[Csareo]

No, BBT is trolling me. I wish you would replace out, because as TTH has noted, you haven't been any help for most of the game, and the only thing that actually sparks your curiousity is when we mention the neighborhood again.
You're obviously not ready for the game, considering your short analysis's have omitted over 80% of the game.

[Csareo]

I'm definitely not lynching flubber since BBT wants to lynch him now.
Honestly, you're all very stubborn. I am going to take a break. I'll restrict myself until later, ciao.

[Csareo]

The only enjoyment I'll get is calling you all idiots at endgame.

[Csareo]

Wake88, lets go back to this post

In other words, there are two wagons going on, and on D1, usually one would of been tipped by scum now.
They've had about a dozen pages to defend either me or BBT, and usually at this point scum would just finish one of the players off, and have a solid town read simply for defending a now dead townie.
I highly doubt scum would draw it out for this long, which makes me believe scum are defending one of the two wagons.

Given the shit cases being thrown at me, and the multitude of scum tells committed by BBT, it is clear who we have to lynch.
At this point, we're pretty much fighting an uphill battle to get scum to finally bus.

I remember that you agreed with me that the two wagons are off. This must lead you to believe one of them is scum motivated, right?

[Csareo]

That there's two wagons at L2 this early on doesn't sit well with me, in that I doubt both of them are Town.

[Csareo]

Even BBT agreed that "scum are trying to lynch him before me".
One of us most go today, and right now, a lot of the decision making relies on you, jagged appliance, and anatole.

[Csareo]

would guess the scum are on my wagon and trying to push my lynch through before Csareo's.

False scenario? Here you are agreeing with me.

[Csareo]

@Wake88, It seemed like you were saying exactly what it sounded like.
Two static wagons on D1 is seriously off.

[Csareo]

You made a statement that scum are voting you to protect me.
Clearly represented by your vote on me.
If you think I'm scum, I'm surprised you're so eager to drop your suspicions and focus on a bipartisan lynch on flubber.
Seems all to oppurtunistic.

@Wake88, that's what has me off also. Obviously you would have to acknowledge flubber contributed somewhat around that of massive, who has half of flubbers posts, yet massive, the one associating himself with BBT, is being town read by BBT?

[Csareo]

@Wake88, It seemed like you were saying exactly what it sounded like.
Two static wagons on D1 is seriously off.

Keep elaborating, please. You mentioned other things, too, so please humor us.

Can you be more clear on what you want me to say?
Don't mean to sound uncooperative, but I'm a bit confused tbh.

[Csareo]

That was the point I was trying to make as well.
I thought since you said that immediately after I made that assumption, you were issuing a statement of agreement.

[Csareo]

BBT, just pretend like you have 24 hours now.
I think you better full claim everything in your role PM.
Paraphrase the wording in your PM as well.

[Csareo]

Learn to spell man.
"Neighbor". The british always fudge our language.

[Csareo]

You mean English?

I wonder why it's called English. Hmm.

PEdit - How is that anti-town?

I speak American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_language

[Csareo]

You generally do that after you're lynched.
Doctorpepper, can you get a co-mod?

[Csareo]

You now seem confident you're going to be lynched.
This makes me suspicious of a bus???

[Csareo]

NVM, if that was the case, wake would of put me at L-1.

[Csareo]

*as a better alternative