Mini Normal 2268 Game Over

[ShadowGirl]

Hello everyone! I played way back in ye olden days and I'm excited to play mafia again! For now, until I read over the thread: UNVOTE: Dwlee99
I hope to post an analysis some time today.

[ShadowGirl]

Hello everyone! I played way back in ye olden days and I'm excited to play mafia again! For now, until I read over the thread: UNVOTE: Dwlee99
I hope to post an analysis some time today.

Do you have an MU account?

I'm sorry, I don't know what that acronym means. Is the wiki the best place to look up "newer" slang terms?

[ShadowGirl]

Ah ok i know a shadow who is also a girl from MU so was wondering if you were the same person

Nope, not me. I haven't played on any other mafia forum sites other than mafiascum - and haven't played on here in nearly a decade.

[ShadowGirl]

My thoughts below after a full reread (up to page 25 - I know there have been posts since I was writing still up which are not addressed here, as this post is already overly long.), which will be grouped by player. All of the things I wrote were done chronologically rather than sorted all at the end, so if my thoughts do change over time of players or things, that is the reason why. But I wanted to give my full thoughts as I reread page by page.

tictac

Spoiler:

@monkee: dunno why u think scumlion wants to avoid a fight w u. u both easier yeet and more valuable miseet from his pow then dwee. lion refusing to 1v1 u is town indic.

Wouldn’t scum be less likely to want to get into argument, as they more likely to draw votes rather than with a de-escalation?

VOTE: chaos
@dk feel free to use like arguments if u got something against this

Why the vote on Chaos rather Gamma who made it E-1?

marcistar

Spoiler:

VOTE: Meuh

Why Meuh vote with no explanation at all in this post? Sub note: 3 votes on DwLee at this time.

I've played with Meuh quite a bit since we're friends, I often send her game links and ask her to sign up with me!! In all of those games, she's been town and I think she usually just ... has alot more to say than she already has at this point. I feel like shes usually out there very townily towning it up and being sort of like a townblock creator. So I think its weird she hasn't done much yet, i'm not sure if shes scum but I wanna see whats up yknow? !!

Perhaps a personal preference, but don't love this vote based solely on past play. Sub note: Votes were 3-3 on GL and DwLee at this time.

it feels like ur a bit too hard against this tbh

Just noting wanting to keep the possibility in discussion of a scum in either of the neighbourhoods. Wondering why you're not voting DwLee or defending them since part of the reasoning against them is shadiness re: the neigbhourhood talk?

ChaosOmega

Spoiler:

VOTE: GuiltyLion E-2

I also scumread NK15, the tone in their posting feels fabricated almost to the point like I'm reading a robot. The hyperfocus on the 1 scum/1 traitor thing is silly. It feels really unlikely that GL and NK15 are partnered given NK15's shift onto the wagon, so I think I'm wrong on at least one of my top reads here.

E-2 vote on GL while scumreading NK15 who hasn’t posted in many pages. Would it not make sense to withhold vote and get more info from people (particularly inactive) before an elimination? Also, if NK15 is your scumread, then you should field some question his way as well? Also gives an easy out if GL flips town and to move onto NK15 D2 that what you're sure of is that you have at least one read wrong.

Meuh

Spoiler:

VOTE: chaos
Better spot for my vote than still randomly on tictac

Why the vote on Chaos, again, because Gamma was E-1?

GuiltyLion

Spoiler:

I do think it's very likely there's a scum in at least one of the hoods so I'm down with either Dwlee or NK15 wagons atm though I would like NK15 to actually engage with me so I can better suss out the degree to which he believes what he's pushing

I don't love making it an assumption that there's scum in the neighbourhood as that can create an easy vote, which if said person flips town, is an easy out because it's a vote based on mechanics. Not saying this is not a possibility, but I don't think it should be the top reason for a vote.

I'm not voting you cause a) Dwlee is a bigger wagon and b) I kinda want to see what they make of everything when they get back before deciding if I want to defuse any pressure there.

Given the other wagon is 3 votes against GL, makes sense to stick to bigger wagon to avoid getting voted around than to make it 2-2-2, which would still be sufficient pressure on DwLee.

why would scum!me even claim to scumread you and call out that your reasons for townreading me were kinda fake-sounding and bad, if these were my goals? Like, the pocket-y and de-escalating thing I could have done would have been to simply townread you and amplify your voice against my other detractors. But instead I pick a fight with one of the only people asking people to explain why they suspect me? and you think that's a

de-escalation

tactic?

Do agree easy town thing would be to not question scum-read. The reverse psychology play of pocketing seems less likely, particular given many pages of arguing back and forth. Definitely seems like a way to create someone who will forever tunnel you. But still ? at why not voting him vs DwLee.

I've also been thinking about this and I'm willing to sheep it and this wagon
VOTE: Meuh

Could be seen as pivoting to Meuh off of marci’s vote (which is due to past game gut play) as DwLee wagon fizzling. Which the past read vote play sheeping just seems like very lukewarm reasoning, again, compared to voting HEM.

The reason I'm not voting HEM is a) because I hate that he tried to manipulate/goad me into voting him and I refuse to allow him to bully my vote that way on principle, and b) because even though I find HEM vaguely scummy, I also don't believe I'm super likely to be correct there. I absolutely do start with easier to pressure/sort players on D1, I believe people who tunnel themselves on the hard-to-read high-activity slots are often wildly wrong in doing so and it's best to use D1 lim on lurky slots that don't have any real remote reason to townread them. I explained this in more detail in my last game I played and I stand by it here as well, it's far easier to imagine me just personality clashing/not liking HEM and being wrong than it is to find good quality reasons to townread a low activity slot that isn't yet even playing. Especially in Meuh's case as the town game marci linked did seem wildly different to her first posts in this game.

This seems like contradictory thinking? That you wish to push people who are prone to tunnelling for seemingly no reason, rather than mounting pressure on those who are inactive and prodding them with questions? And as scum seems like easy pickings to target tunnel-vision prone people as they'll basically dig their own grave?

DkKoba:

Spoiler:

atm i'm leaning dwlee/NK15 both being scum.

If these were your top scumreads, why have your vote on HEM rather than either of them? Particularly since you find DwLee particularly suspicious due to neighbourhood interactions. Not wanting to push DwLee to 4 votes (if scumbuddy)?

ill humor this VOTE: GL

Note on timing: Voted GL over DwLee while votes at 3-3.

VOTE: GL
Aight

Why revote on GL which still puts it at E-1 rather than gather more info from inactive players? Still don’t love the baiting for a quick hammer which if a trigger happy townie does it, makes an easy D2 vote out.

In the world where the scum in question has to endgame and ur facing someone who can read scum you with scary accuracy and the last scum is either traitor or a weak scum player

Overwhelmingly the majority of traitor references are from you - just wondering what makes you adamant on that there is a traitor?

Dwlee99

I just would love some more content from you since aside from the defensiveness which as I have no personal experience with you, so I don't know how to read that, so I'd love an overview of your current reads on players.

Gamma Emerald

Spoiler:

as in my reads?
you, marci, koba, and nk15 are TRs for me rn
dwlee and GL are suspects

Curious as to the scumreads as these are two people who were voting against each other – would love an elaboration.

VOTE: guiltylion E-1
This game is dead af, let’s at least make something happen soon

Do not like this at all for this shallow reasoning.

Maybe
Something about the way Roden came in against the GL wagon feels rather sus
Actually, I think I have a good idea of what alarm bells are being rung here

If you think Roden is scumbuddy to GL, why switch votes from GL to Roden? Wouldn't either of them being voted be fine if they're both scum? Unless I am misunderstanding the term S/S?

Not Known 15

Spoiler:

VOTE: Guilty Lion

Vote but zero explanation? Just curious at that time what made you vote this way.

Yes. Partnered with Roden and Testarossa(alternatively Marci). Koba and Gamma switched to Roden and dwlee unvoted after there was strong resistance to a GL lim.

Trying to understand what are your reads are for the people who switched/unvoted off the person that you think is scum? I am trying to interpret if you thought this was suspicious or (?).

Roden

Spoiler:

Anyway that was gonna be my reason for voting HEM because I caught up already and that looked like scum trying to appease someone who was scum reading them.

VOTE: HEM

What do you think about HEM's reaction to DkKoba vs GL scumreading them (appeasement vs argument)?

Wtf is this garbage wagon? Is there any particular reason you guys want to vote out the only person keeping the game alive? Like do none of you see that the further this wagon builds the more quiet this game gets? Game state alone shows that this is a wagon on town and that scum are just waiting for town to hammer for an easy Day 1.

Considering it a townie read for opposing GL wagon and not voting for easy elimination, or else super long game scum tactic to not be on this wagon if GL flip town.

humaneatingmonkey

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:

can you tell us about dwlee in your hood?

Unvoting Dkkoba when GammaEmerald gives townread on them – before they have answered what happened in hood topic ?

Gamma what are you doing? you're doing nothing.

But you just agreed and unvoted based on what they said on page 8 of read of Dkkoba and unvoted possibly due to that(?) – also DwLee had not posted in awhile, so why not call them out too?

yes. i even think Dwlee is town.

Why not calling out DwLee on inactivity - and townreading them, which is based only on read of past game - even though you did so to Gamma who had posted before you had said they were doing?

[ShadowGirl]

@tictac, can you give me your thoughts on Gamma, please, and his vote and then subsequent reasoning for making it E-1? I believe that you are saying that you think Chaos is more scummy because Gamma was more active up until then?

[ShadowGirl]

kinda like the 2 absent slots coming liive and both honing on the one slot that's under pressure and having their own reasons.
granted, chaos fits this bill more blatantly than u do. thought about waiting to see if u became more clear on the issue, but that's gonna last forever.
not sure if it's opportunistic really. i'd more call it coincidental, as in "i don't think this is what naturally happens when new people read through a game and form opinions about it"

What do you think about that you have a scumread on Meuh as your 2nd top scum read(?) but that you are both voting for Chaos? Do you then think Meuh is bussing them? Or what is your opinion on Meuh currently?

[ShadowGirl]

I made no posts between these two. Koba just made a joke about not listening to other people at all when I asked them to consider they could be wrong :^)

Do you mind giving me your current reads of the players (town/scum/null)?

@tictac: Do you mind giving me your thoughts on my other post to you, re: Meuh?

[ShadowGirl]

Koba, Gamma: Why did you move off GL and hopped on a Roden wagon? Yes, I know that you SR both.

I’m actually less convinced GL is scum than Roden is. Both of them have given me vibes of past scumgames tho, and I think that’s a weirdly solid sign for me specifically

Can you explain this position given that your reasoning is that Roden had "skin in the game" (do you mean protecting scum buddy)? Is your position that Roden is trying to get towncred for trying to protect GL if he flips town? Or do you believe they are both scum?

[ShadowGirl]

Less questions more statements please

I did a whole write-up a page ago so you can see my thoughts there and I'm asking questions so that I am able to more accurately give my thoughts based on fuller information, since on many posts I cited there were no/little explanations... so if there is a specific thing you want to ask me about, you can ask me a question too.

HEM/Gamma scum

NK/Marci/Koba one scum

As per my write-up, I don't like Gamma's E-1 vote and I am trying to understand his reasoning for switching his vote from GL to Roden & why he finds Roden scummy now or if it just boils down only to "past game" reads (or severe personality clashing). As I've said in my longer post, I don't love votes that are purely or most heavily based on past game reads rather than current game actions.

About HEM, the interaction with GL is difficult to parse if it's just really heavy tunnel vision or scum stirring someone up to make a wagon - I don't like how fast the traction for GL was and how close it came to an elimination. Currently they don't seem to be doing much other than solely going after GL, with now also thinking Roden is scummy for their defense - and I disagree with their take that Roden isn't scumhunting, as I believe evaluating who is voting on a wagon / pushing a wagon to be scumhunting.

As to the other people on your list that you scumread, I've given my thoughts in the longer write-up and none of them have posted since that post of mine/answered my questions. If there's something particular you want me to elaborate from my post, you can ask me.

Are you just asking me what I think of your list to try and determine if I have a scumread of you based on your answer?

[ShadowGirl]

They've popped in a couple times to say "GL scum" and that's about it, their earlier fire is entirely gone.

it's true my earlier fire is entirely gone.

i'm really not paying any attention in this game.

but i've popped in to say "GL town", actually

Can you elaborate on your change of opinion on GL?

[ShadowGirl]

They've popped in a couple times to say "GL scum" and that's about it, their earlier fire is entirely gone.

it's true my earlier fire is entirely gone.

i'm really not paying any attention in this game.

but i've popped in to say "GL town", actually

Just want to add that if you do believe this, your vote is however still on GL currently.

I gave you my list what do you think?

Want to add my new thoughts on this which is that you just basically followed Roden's analysis and voted for HEM and this comment is giving me vibes of either 1) coaxing me to try and determine if I scumread you so to determine how to act towards me 2) seeing where my vote goes and sheep that. Can you tell me why you find HEM scummier than Gamma in your mind, or is it just because HEM is getting more attention from everyone?

I can't agree with that. The game was stagnant because there was hidden resistance to the GL wagon, which immediately surfaced when GL was put to E-1.

Are you more suspicious of GL or Roden for what happened? Is your read that they are both scumbuddies? And would also like to add that Gamma did at that time post intent for hammer unless you 100% believed at the time it was happened that was a gambit and/or for some reason was sure that he would not hammer?

I didn't have anything really in particular to question Dwlee on, it felt more productive to pressure you. The NK15 point is valid, and I brought it up in my post that I'm very likely wrong somewhere here. Gamma has experience with him and says that NK15 feels town, so if that's just his posting style, I need to look past my view of his tone, which is definitely coloring my read of his slot.

Townreads right now are marci, HEM, and Koba.

Since you were going off of Gamma for your NK15-town but you now think they're scum are voting them, are you back to putting NK15 in the top of your scumreads? How do you fell that they are still adamant on GL + Roden scum?

@DkKoba: Can you tell me why you lean towards the opinion of more likely rather than less likely that there is a traitor? Given how many times you made the reference I'm curious about this.

Currently where my head is at that the GL run-up gained traction too fast and got close to elimination. There is a slight possibility of GL/Roden being scumbuddies with a last minute clutch defence (less likely due to high risk), or scum!Roden defending a soon-to-be-flipped townie but overall I lean towards townie for them both/not D1 picks.

[ShadowGirl]

I didn't post intent, I placed the E-1 vote

You're right - got a bit scrambled on page 20 - the amendment for my comment to NK15 is about how they feel about you (Gamma) and DkKoba potentially baiting for quickhammers. Just would like to clarify about your E-1 vote to GL: did you actually believe that GL could be scum when you voted or was it solely to get reactions?

Also @DKkoba:

VOTE: GL
Aight

Why revote on GL which still puts it at E-1 rather than gather more info from inactive players? Still don’t love the baiting for a quick hammer which if a trigger happy townie does it, makes an easy D2 vote out.

[ShadowGirl]

Who in this playerlist would be able to quickhammer and explain it away as towny?

I haven't played on this site for nearly ten years so I can't give any opinions on any of the people here. Again, I just don't love the set-up as a personal preference, particularly making the then most active poster as the sacrificial lamb.

Also, I noted that no one ever asked for a claim from GL even though he was at E-1/very close to getting voted out.

[ShadowGirl]

I think you are pursuing a pointless venture here and it is easily explained by people understanding eachother due to meta.

It's not pointless to me since what I have to go on in is current in-game actions, which is that it seemed like baiting/trying for a fast D1 elimination. I also don't know why you're trying to be super dismissive about it since this comment is not specific to only you, but also to Gamma.

1) Why didn't you ask GL for a claim?
2) Can you answer my question about you being adamant about that there is a traitor in the game?
3) What are you current thoughts on Dwlee?

[ShadowGirl]

I posted my explanation for why I found HEM scummy before Roden did and you can go find it to see why I'm voting there.

Is it based on this ?
Because it seems like you have a stronger opinion on Gamma than HEM.

I haven't read a /lot/ outside of what Koba has kind of pointed out in the hood but there is some stuff I got

I had a thought that HEM's read on me going from null -> town without me posting was really weird and koba kinda just blew me off

They're saying other kinda ridiculous stuff but not beneficial to out probably? Gamma's E-1 vote wasn't good. Mala in bears with guns did the E-1 on someone to goad math to hammer and it's pretty similar. I guess there isn't a similar person that was goaded to hammer, but GL's point that you only really leave someone at E-1 like that hoping that someone hammers are right.

About Koba possibly pocketing me in the hood - Not really? If Koba wanted to pocket me they'd probably approach me differently in the hood. I've butted heads with them every game recently and this isn't an exception so :shrug:

I'm gonna go find the HEM posts cause Koba ignored me based on townlocking HEM

[ShadowGirl]

1) I dont care about claims generally, people will back me up on this. I have caught scum by blasting through claims. they mean nothing to me day 1 in a closed setup.
2) I am past this point and im back to about rand chance of traitor. This primairly was due to my scumread on dwlee at the start of the game.
3) That is between dwlee and I in our hood

I noted you barely gave any concrete alignment reads on me however - what is your feeling on my alignment?

My read on you is probably null to scum, based on the overwhelming amount of early traitor talk (just light bad vibes of trying to signal the traitor), the bait for a quickhammer, and now refusing to give your read on Dwlee as that can go either way of either wanting to buddy up to them by not scumreading them (as starting off the game with going aggressive on them leaves them trying to mend things with you) or to be able to push them as a vote if the wind swings that way rather than having to give an answer of townie read and then course correct, and also combined with totally shutting down the talk of potential scum in the neighbhourhoods, which I agree shouldn't be the sole basis for an elimination but I think it is something that is plausible, but you won't even consider it? The potential null is due to the fact that I don't know you and that this just might be how you always act and that we have different views on certain gameplay elements (mechplay, quickhammering, etcera).

atm i'm leaning dwlee/NK15 both being scum.

More about your dynamic with Dwlee with ref of a past post: At this point you had your vote on HEM rather than either of those - particular Dwlee who seemed was like your top scumread at that point. Your dynamic with Dwlee just seems like a very much a 'wanting it both ways and seeing what pans out most advantageous'. Or is there a town-benefiting reason that you have for not giving your read on Dwlee? Because to me I'm not seeing what the overall town benefit is.

[ShadowGirl]

Whoops. Remembered that one wrongly. Sorry.
VOTE: Guilty Lion

What the reason for your preference for voting GL over Roden (who was your 2nd top scumread pick and then you temporarily changed your vote due to a post of theirs), and what is your take on my analysis about DkKoba's behaviour about not giving reads on Dwlee (up until a couple posts ago)?

[ShadowGirl]

tictac has massively gone under the radar to the point i forgot they were in the game


but also my genshin dailies call to me so that is all u get for now, i will make dwlee do my dirty work and reread them :^)

i know what genshin is i'm not a boomer ):

i also agree that i would love those who have not posted much or lately to do so : tictac, chaos, marci, nk15
will go back to my boomer normal style of typing after this post

[ShadowGirl]

This seems like contradictory thinking? That you wish to push people who are prone to tunnelling for seemingly no reason, rather than mounting pressure on those who are inactive and prodding them with questions? And as scum seems like easy pickings to target tunnel-vision prone people as they'll basically dig their own grave?

I'm not sure I understand this question/comment, I think there's some kind of miscommunication here.

I don't want to push people who are prone to tunneling, if anything I think most of the time tunnel-prone people are town, rather what I'm saying is that I think tunnel behavior usually leads to bad gamestates for town. The people I wish to push on D1 are the emptier slots who I don't feel are very invested nor taking real stances in the game. early game there's usually at least one scum who can't keep up with the tryhard townies, and scum's path to winning or gameplan isn't very clear to them yet, so I tend to find better odds of success just pushing/wagoning lurkscummy people who I don't have any real reason to townread rather than someone who I get into a big fight with, if that someone is otherwise a very vocal/engaged player then my guess is I'm more likely to just be clashing with them and finding reasons to SR them due to the sheer density of noise from their slot.

a lot of scum will definitely get by me on D1 if they have the WIM for it, but I think I have better odds of catching those players in the mid-late game once we have a much clearer picture of the gamestate via flips, associatives, voting record, etc

Yeah, I interpreted "I absolutely do start with easier to pressure/sort players on D1," as trying to pick a fight with players that you knew would get agitated, but I see that wasn't what you meant. I also think that the fight between the two of you isn't necessarily alignment indicative and could be just a personality clash between you.

I know this conversation got shut down but since I wasn't there for it, I just want to briefly bring it up: what is the general site meta for neighbourhoods for Normal games, about how many scum there may or may not be in the neighbourhoods? Again, not suggesting someone get eliminated solely due to math-ing on this aspect.

[ShadowGirl]

Koba is only not highest town tier by virtue of general paranoia of their scumgame, they're easily the most take charge person in the game here and I don't really object to most of what they've said - they have the wrong conclusions on roden/GL dynamic but I don't fault them for how they reached those conclusions.

NK15 I think has been pushing a lot of bullshit and doing it in this extremely obstinate/confident way that I think feels surface-level town in a "it seems like his beliefs are genuine!" sense but doesn't actually demonstrate an evolving/sorting mind. like his entire gamestate view has been oriented around me being scum from the very start and has not once significantly deviated nor reassessed (I know he very briefly voted Koba but I think that was for show), and I also think he's a smarter dude than to genuinely believe in assigning scumreads to everyone who townread me like he did in 586. no evidence in my mind of him not playing to suit an agenda. also I think the initial fixation on the traitor talk was odd and possibly informed of presence of a traitor in the game. would lim with no mercy

I'm trying to understand why DkKoba and NK15 are on opposite ends of your read spectrum due to the abundance of traitor talk as NK15 was questioning DkKoba about it?

[ShadowGirl]

Koba brought it up but NK15 latched onto that and pushed it hard for a handful of posts as if it were this really damning thing

I can imagine that being a scum reaction if you know there's a traitor, kinda regardless of whatever Koba's alignment is or intentions in brining it up

What do you think about the possibility scum!DkKoba bringing up traitor talk as a signal to traitor? I think using the hood talk with Dwlee having a weird reaction (or the fact of still being able to bring it up whatever their reaction) would be a good smoke cover for it.

[ShadowGirl]

Sorry, posted too slowly since you added on another post after the one I quoted lol

[ShadowGirl]

Vote: ChaosOmega

Putting my vote here for now to apply pressure + also that they were on the GL wagon, though there's a good chunk of other low posting people I'd also like more content from (tictac, marci, NK15).

[ShadowGirl]

all of those "lowposters" have more posts than you.

I have as of this moment more posts than Chaos and NK15. I also, you know, replaced in yesterday so this is not the gotcha you think it is.

[ShadowGirl]

ShadowGirl, do you still want #634 answered?

Yes, if you can give me your thoughts on my notes about you that would be great.

although I agree that ChaosOmega's E-2 is +town, but it could also just as easily be scum.

What makes you lean for it be more likely town than scum?

Also, how do feel about Roden's current actions (post-GL defense)?

wont lynch today
DkKoba
Dwlee99
Meuh
GuiltyLion
marcistar
tictac
ChaosOmega
ShadowGirl

i dont know how to read this
Not Known 15

willing to lynch
Gamma Emerald
Roden

can you drive me to that conclusion as well? i personally think i'm not seeing the confident scumhunting Gamma that I usually see in D1, and there wasn't any effort to sort my slot (which he usually starts with). also think that E-1 was blatantly anti-town.

how does everyone feel about {Roden, ShadowGirl, ChaosOmega}

i have no read on shadowgirl nor chaosomega and would rather vote roden.

i can also be persuaded on roden's alignment.

i get what you mean

but i feel like i already identified who i think is town, and im p confident in this block
those outside of these brackets, i think i dont want to leave d1.

and although chaosomega seems like the E-2 was 2 ballsy 4 scum, it could just be scum.
but again, i have no strong reads on either shadowgirl or chaosomega and im down to wagon these slots
although i like roden to be the actual person to go.

Why is Gamma going from willing to eliminate today to not on this list of people you want to wagon since they are/were your number 2 scumread? Has something dramatically changed of your read in them in one page?

[ShadowGirl]

yes meuh showed me gamma's posts in isolation, and i buy meuh's read.

What makes you confident that Meuh is town (and will wholly agree with their take) considering you thought they were sus a couple pages ago for the same reason you think Roden is? What makes Meuh's reasoning for being against the GL wagon different than Roden's to give you such opposite reads on them?

lurking Roden and Meuh suddenly pops out after GL gets sent to E-1.

Meuh and Roden never explained what makes GL so obvtown

[ShadowGirl]

Meuh had a different angle than Roden din. Meuh's was purely gamestate — Roden believes GL to be obvtown.

I also just townread Meuh's tone and I don't detect deception in her posts.

Is this not a defence that Roden thinks GL was purely town based on game state ?
Or are you reading into it differently than me?

Wtf is this garbage wagon? Is there any particular reason you guys want to vote out the only person keeping the game alive? Like do none of you see that the further this wagon builds the more quiet this game gets?

Game state alone shows that this is a wagon on town

and that scum are just waiting for town to hammer for an easy Day 1.

[ShadowGirl]

i keep seeing him say that GL was obvtown, and it registered as he had other reasons.

now that i saw this post, i understand that he just thinks GL town for the gamestate.

If that totally changes your read on them, can give an update of your willing to eliminate D1 list / your scumread list?

where's your notes shadowgirl

Can you elaborate on the question? You mean like my reads list?

[ShadowGirl]

i'll think about it. but after this conversation, maybe i need a conversation with ChaosOmega.

no like you asked me to respond to your notes right? where can i find it

Oh you just answered them lol it was post 634.

how does everyone feel about {Roden, ShadowGirl, ChaosOmega}

i have no read on shadowgirl nor chaosomega and would rather vote roden.

i can also be persuaded on roden's alignment.

although I agree that ChaosOmega's E-2 is +town, but it could also just as easily be scum.

I don't like that last post.

What don't you like about it? What are your current feelings on Chaos?

[ShadowGirl]

there's also the worlds where there's just no traitor in the set-up and NK15 thought it'd be a plausible fake reason to push on Koba. so basically just, a lot of roads lead to scum!NK15 whereas comparatively a lot fewer lead to scum!Koba, at least in terms of the traitor point specifically

Aside from the potential of it being a signal or not, there's still the aspect of the general play itself; what do you think about just DkKoba's dynamic with Dwlee, which I have given my thoughts about in #733?

[ShadowGirl]

Yep. I'd need to see a really compelling argument for why Roden does any of this as scum assuming I am town. I'm more sympathetic to a GL-Roden S/S belief than any T/S idea.

View from your perspective?
1) If you got eliminated at that point (since you know you're town and he as scum knows you're town), he as scum stays off the wagon and keeps his hands clean + appeared as a detractor to an "easy" vote = getting him a leaning toward town read.
2) If you don't get eliminated today (and at some future point you get flipped town, again, because you know you're town), he still appears a detractor to the "easy" D1 vote + in the mean time until that point he earns good will from you & you now find him obvtown without a doubt for having saved you = getting him a leaning toward town read.

[ShadowGirl]

Hmmm actually... what do you all think about a massclaim?

It feels like an atrocious idea at this moment. Why do you think this would be a good idea?

[ShadowGirl]

To get more clarity on who might have been scummy due to role sideeffects and who did not.

What do you mean scummy due to role side effects?
Also, we already have 4 role claims (the 2 sets of neighbours) out there aka a third of the players.

And re-asking my unanswered question to you: what are your thoughts on Chaos currently?

[ShadowGirl]

Mod, can we get a prod on ChaosOmega? Please and thank you!

[ShadowGirl]

Do you think an E-4 vote with no real reason applies pressure?

I would say tie-ing for lead wagon (3-3) is an application of pressure, and I'm explained in other posts that I find the speed of GL's wagon and how close he got to being voted out to make believe there were scum on that wagon, and you and Gamma were the ones who got on very quickly (I also have my eye on Gamma for their E-1, which I've spoken about). If you want me to give further elaboration about you, the vibes from your lurkiness: you came back to vote solely Gamma due to their E-1 on GL (a wagon you were on, and were the E-2, due to thinking GL was scum) which is a pretty easy vote to make. Your next post after that was a question to another player, with no other analysis about other things go on.

1) What are your thoughts on Roden's defense of GL?
2) What are your thoughts on DkKoba re: their interactions with Dwlee?
3) If you have experience with DkKoba in a game where they were scum, what is their differentiation from their town game?
In general, which I've already spoken about in a multitude of other posts, I don't love "clearing" someone solely on meta of other games and no current game reasons, so can you give any specific in-game actions that make you read DkKoba as among your top town read?
4) What gives you scumreads on Dwlee?

[ShadowGirl]

Meta is good u boomer

Do you think it should be the sole reason to auto-clear them as town ?

[ShadowGirl]

Would not surprise me but wouldn’t not surprise me
I think overall that pool has lower than rand scum odds, so I’m not particularly worried about them
I can see it both ways
I think if we’re looking for scum who are/are going to be pushing on me, some players have me neut/lean scum sorted or haven’t said much about my alignment, and I think there could be scum there.
They can just leave the door open if the push on me does gain momentum
Chaos, NK15, ShadowGirl, Dwlee, Roden and tictac all fit the bill to varying extents, although note I don’t necessarily scumread them, I just think the general position they’re in is a bit scummy, 2 scum in that group wouldn’t surprise me
Keeping that door open on a townie with 3 votes just looks bad to me

I'll say that I have you at null-scum since I don't know how to sort out the situation with you and marci meta-reading each other. I think it is quite possible that not all scum got on the GL wagon (which you were not on), again, the same scum!townie cred defence that I think of as a possibility that Roden might have done applies to you. But I currently have my focus on that fast wagon & the people on it as potential scum. Also I'll be a bit hm @ you if Chaos flips scum since you just changed your vote from them while they (were until now) the current leading wagon at 4.

What do you think of Chaos' most recent posts/reads?

[ShadowGirl]

Feeling some kind of vibes that GL got so quickly wagoned and almost voted out but that this is not happening with Chaos - and for instance Meuh unvoted when it got to 4, so I currently feel fine with my Chaos vote, who figures into a lot of my potential connections to other scum. Not feeling the HEM wagon which went from 1 to 3 votes in 2 pages.

[ShadowGirl]

I understand this, and I thought about it a bit myself as well, but I feel a bit stuck in the middle. Voting out ChaosOmega would feel more like voting out someone for their personality to me, so I'm hesitant. While they've barely done much, to me it feels sort of like it's easy. I've never played with ChaosOmega before, but it seems like they aren't trying very hard to alleviate any suspicion on them. It feels more like others are doing that for them, than them themselves.

I feel like if it was the 'easy' vote (for scum to get out a townie), then there would be more votes/pushes in that direction up until this point (particularly when we're at 2 days to deadline), and I'm not seeing that happening, but that instead there's quite a bit of resistance/hesitance from a lot of people (also agree that it feels like others are trying vouch for them and that Chaos hasn't done anything particularly to deserve such a clear) and now this sudden, fast attempt to build a HEM wagon.

[ShadowGirl]

Chaos has absolutely posted enough to the point I can say they are deserving of a d1 pass
Did ppl even read his post?

Meuh is so fucking flaccid and scared and no one is listening to me wanting to vote there *despite expressing an fos there*

Thats the type of threadstate read that finds scum, not this wagon speed analysis bs

What "brave" takes have you seen from Chaos' posts? They voted for Gamma with the safe reasoning of the E-1 vote. And it's a safe place to leave it currently rather than take any positions on the leading wagons - which when they last posted, was Chaos and Meuh (4-3).

[ShadowGirl]

doesn't all this apply to the Meuh wagon as well? I agree the movement towards HEM is skeevy but I feel it could just as much be resistance to Meuh wagon

I agree that it could possibly apply there as well.

you are twisting my words and i do not wish to have a conversation like that.

You said Chaos is deserving of a D1 pass. What do you find in their posts that is not "being scared" [to give a bold take] compared to Meuh? Like how am I supposed to word this so that you can explain what you feel the difference is.

[ShadowGirl]

What do you guys think would be scum!me’s justification to voting for HEM?

That Chaos is your scumbuddy and you don't want them getting eliminated either D1, and it's easier to pivot to HEM then try and start a whole wagon... and said person was your top scumread is now the person you will sheep?? Or are you of the opinion that both HEM and NK15 are still scumbuddies, even though HEM is trying to wagon them?

[ShadowGirl]

VOTE: HEM

Bad vibes bad vibes
Stop buddying me

I’m fine with a NK15 lim here if that’s what people want
We should probably sort out today’s lim soonish

do it

Oki
VOTE: NK15

VOTE: HEM

Lesgo

That's quite some flipflopping back and forth - from voting HEM to sheeping them to voting them again.

Will you consider Chaos as a potential D1 elimination?

[ShadowGirl]

Why not ask Roden as well?

Roden's initial vote on HEM happened nearly twenty pages ago so it's not quite same level of flip flop as Meuh who did the 3 votes all in 5 pages, but yes, I am taking into consideration that they're not getting onto either Chaos' or Meuh's wagons and instead went HEM/NK15/HEM.

[ShadowGirl]

Why not ask Roden as well?

If you mean the Chaos question then from this post it seems like they're not interested in that:

Why would I vote a town or null read instead of you, who I scum read? Granted, I keep almost thinking you could be town until you say really scummy shit out of nowhere again, but yeah I'm pretty sure you flip red.

Besides, the only player worth flipping of your selected three is Meuh. NK15 and Chaos have almost no associatives or readable post-flip content. But also I already said I didn't want to flip Meuh Day 1 so uh, bad PoE. Also lazy PoE tbh.

But yeah, would love a reclarification @Roden: How do you currently feel about a Chaos D1 elimination? Or Meuh?

[ShadowGirl]

you won't get acknowledgment from them how sketchy that move from Meuh is

now why is that

Who is the 'them' in your post ?

[ShadowGirl]

@Gamma: Does Chaos get a D1 pass from you or no?

[ShadowGirl]

The place that I'm currently at is that I feel that there are just as many people avoiding the Chaos wagon, so that is still my preference, but that I will vote for Meuh as we're coming down to the (deadline) wire, as the 3 vote flip flop was sketch (+ avoiding Chaos wagon).

[ShadowGirl]

I'm still for Chaos, but I don't want to leave things down to the very last minute so:

Vote: Meuh

[ShadowGirl]

That's E-2, I believe?

[ShadowGirl]

Yes, but you could also vote HEM, which would leave them at E-2, too. So... why not?

I've already mentioned what I find shady about Meuh most recently in, #1074 and #1106. Do you not find Meuh's flip flopping of votes scummy? They were even voting you at one point! What is giving you clear townie reads on Meuh?

[ShadowGirl]

No, it means that they thought that HEM/myself had one scum, and they were not sure who.
Why is them voting me a reason for me to vote for Meuh?

You, town - know you are town - so Meuh trying to jump on nearly any wagon available solely for their own self-preservation (other than Chaos, my own view is they are likely scumbuddies) - should ping you, no? Again: what do you see super townie about Meuh?

[ShadowGirl]

who cares abt claims

(raises hand in boomer)
I can see there's not one single mechplay thing we're gonna agree on lol

[ShadowGirl]

Their wagon progression is tictac(RVS)-Chaos-HEM-Myself-HEM. I don't see what you are describing here.

What's so super townie about Meuh is that they are extremely unlikely to be partnered with HEM. And HEM is scum.

ISO the mod and go look at the vote count number spreads starting from when ChaosOmega was at 4.

If HEM is scum, who do you think would be their partner(s)?

[ShadowGirl]

Mind telling me how HEM’s incessant flip-flopping and appealing to others is town-indicative?

Mind telling me how

HEM’s

Meuh's incessant flip-flopping and appealing to others is town-indicative?

[ShadowGirl]

Mind telling me how HEM’s incessant flip-flopping and appealing to others is town-indicative?

Mind telling me how

HEM’s

Meuh's incessant flip-flopping and appealing to others is town-indicative?

How does that description match Meuh’s play?

I already talked about the flip-flopping in other posts, which I then referenced to NK15 so idk if you're just reading not any of my posts or only the ones where you want to try to gotcha me lol

Yes, but you could also vote HEM, which would leave them at E-2, too. So... why not?

I've already mentioned what I find shady about Meuh most recently in, #1074 and #1106. Do you not find Meuh's flip flopping of votes scummy? They were even voting you at one point! What is giving you clear townie reads on Meuh?

Soft appeals @ me

who cares abt claims

(raises hand in boomer)
I can see there's not one single mechplay thing we're gonna agree on lol

poor shadowgirl getting bullied relentlessly

Now you tell me why Meuh is town and don't use the words "D1 meme pass", and tell me who you believe HEM's scum partner(s) are?

[ShadowGirl]

Sadly I have no scummates to bus me just my lonely vt self

If you would have just stayed on your scumbuddy Chaos' wagon, then maybe it would be them instead of you today

[ShadowGirl]

My reasoning for Meuh being town is that her abrupt thought process feels like town actually reacting to events
So like, her flip-flopping has a more natural feel to it than what HEM has been doing, NK15 is probably right about him doing it to pocket and then suspecting people once it fails

Who do you believe HEM's scum partner(s) are?

[ShadowGirl]

My reasoning for Meuh being town is that her abrupt thought process feels like town actually reacting to events
So like, her flip-flopping has a more natural feel to it than what HEM has been doing, NK15 is probably right about him doing it to pocket and then suspecting people once it fails

Who do you believe HEM's scum partner(s) are?

You+Roden or tictac

Did you already forget when HEM nominated me for one of two people he wanted to wagon?

and although chaosomega seems like the E-2 was 2 ballsy 4 scum, it could just be scum.
but again, i have no strong reads on either shadowgirl or chaosomega and im down to wagon these slots
although i like roden to be the actual person to go.

[ShadowGirl]

My reasoning for Meuh being town is that her abrupt thought process feels like town actually reacting to events
So like, her flip-flopping has a more natural feel to it than what HEM has been doing, NK15 is probably right about him doing it to pocket and then suspecting people once it fails

Who do you believe HEM's scum partner(s) are?

You+Roden or tictac

Did you already forget when HEM nominated me for one of two people he wanted to wagon?

and although chaosomega seems like the E-2 was 2 ballsy 4 scum, it could just be scum.
but again, i have no strong reads on either shadowgirl or chaosomega and im down to wagon these slots
although i like roden to be the actual person to go.

Scum cast doubt on their partners without acting on it all the time, I don’t think that proves much

iirc some of ShadowGirl’s earlier posting had negative partner equity with HEM but I’d have to dig for it

And here I was just about to say you were being so nice and I was sorry to vote you out as scum

[ShadowGirl]

And did anything actually come of that? No. That’s also why I think tictac makes sense as a HEM partner. Out of (Meuh, Chaos, NK15, tictac), that’s the person he targeted the least when that was his solve.

Is your scum play here to try and force me to vote HEM as some sort of "proof" to you that I'm not scumbuddies with HEM? Because I much preferred Meuh being nice to me.

[ShadowGirl]

meuh gets a D1 pass from me

who said it isnt buddy

Gamma has pings all over now

but it's not today's problem

Before this HEM had put me as town for what Meuh said about me
But suddenly once I’m going against his game plan I “have pings all over”
This is not the read progression of someone who is actually sorting, it’s that of a person who is trying to bully people into following him otherwise they get scumread

Is this not what you are attempting to do to me, right now? I went from town vibes to > I'm absolutely scum with HEM + an unknown third party (one of your choices was Roden? who's been pushing for HEM for so long? is on the wagon with you, right now?).

slight townvibes from shadowgirl's recent posting

[ShadowGirl]

this is my biggest concern with regards to meuh's elimination

my townreads are all with me.
my scumreads aren't bussing.
they're spending E-1 shading me.

makes me think there's a non-zero chance that Meuh will flip town and they're setting me up.

Chaos isn't here to bus..... (Tictac isn't around either right now, for that matter).

[ShadowGirl]

Chaos isn't here to bus..... (Tictac isn't around either right now, for that matter).

how about gamma?

I think they thought they might be able to convince me to switch my vote:

And did anything actually come of that? No. That’s also why I think tictac makes sense as a HEM partner. Out of (Meuh, Chaos, NK15, tictac), that’s the person he targeted the least when that was his solve.

Is your scum play here to try and force me to vote HEM as some sort of "proof" to you that I'm not scumbuddies with HEM? Because I much preferred Meuh being nice to me.

& #1270.

Given that I'm the unknown quantity that no one has played with, they might have thought they had a shot at it.

[ShadowGirl]

Massclaim time. Popcorn?

I'm cool with it.

[ShadowGirl]

Should I put a pink hair anime girl avi in her honour I'm sorry Meuh

[ShadowGirl]

It looks like the wagons are between Meuh and HEM and no one's interested in Gamma/Enchant, so I'll make my vote useful.

OG i didnt like when ChaosOmega said this (since imo ppl were considering gamma so it doesnt feel in touch 100%) but im still not sure i dont wanna be mean if thats just THEM


AND YES SHADOWGIRL LETS ALL HONOR MEUH

I agree with this sentiment + I don't get really a strong sense of understanding of why Chaos necessarily chose Meuh over HEM to vote for in their posts.

Meuh's wagon looks like a core of people who've been on the wagon and a few people compromising recently. I don't really see much from Meuh, I'm not opposed to the wagon.

This feels like a very neutral/lukewarm take for when Meuh's flips town.

And changed.

[ShadowGirl]

I have a guilty (:

Nvm. Not massclaim time:)

Oh i want dwlee to claim

I'll +1 on this nomination to see where this goes. (Is this how popcorn works? We all like vote for an initial nominee?)

[ShadowGirl]

it looks great on you i really feel like you're town for some reason

I hope you're a good monkey but I'm having trust issues rn

[ShadowGirl]

Koba is just lying. I'm a simple doctor but I didn't say it in the neighborhood thread.

I'm here, just trying to process everything that has been said lol

Since no one has asked this yet, who did you target last night?

[ShadowGirl]

Just like IV and House were only T/T in a very specific world in my last mini normal.

(This is a crumb that is impossible to discern for now that ive explained to dwlee)

Can I have some context on this now that everything is a mess between ya'll lol

[ShadowGirl]

Help a boomer out and explain the term/acronym spew, I tried to look in the wiki, thanks.

[ShadowGirl]

okay boomer what do you want to know

What is spew

[ShadowGirl]

Roden, this is pretty dumb, but did GL crumb you and did you crumb GL? asking because i had marci as the other mason.

She's neighbours with NK15???

[ShadowGirl]

@Roden: I'm trying to think of why DkKoba would serve themselves up as (almost guaranteed to be) one of two people who will be voted out today, or if Dwlee flips town, that they would be certainly voted out tomorrow, come up with something else that doesn't paint a guaranteed target on their back, or do easier pushes on others (barring both DkKoba and Dwlee are scum together and DkKoba wants to get themselves confirmed from this Day). Coming into this Day, DkKoba wasn't likely to be on the list of easy chopping block choices (compared to first instance, lurkers, or Gamma/Enchant, or even HEM possibly still being a play).

[ShadowGirl]

I'm so confused how this part of Dwlees claim makes sense though..? Isn't lionboi dead? I think this is proof Dwlees in the wrong here then.. so I'll vote them and go sleep.

I had to look up the "simple" modifier on the wiki, but essentially it says a doctor's protection would fail on anyone who is not "vanilla" (described as vanilla townie or goon) - so anyone who has a role (such as mason) it would fail on. So that part ? isn't a contradiction, necessarily (if claim is true). However, it seems that DkKoba speculated to Dwlee that GL was a mason (confirm if this is what happened), and Dwlee still chose to protect GL.

[ShadowGirl]

DkKoba, it's not that you didn't utilize your role well, but that we're all playing a (reasonably) friendly team game and that we don't need to get into personally attacking people. I know you feel like you personally solved the game but everyone is still allowed to have their own opinions/methods of playing and not to get into implying people play trash games.

I'm also going to go to bed, but since scum has been fairly obviously caught:

Vote: Dwlee99

I believe that's E-2.

[ShadowGirl]

Unvote

as I don't want this Day ending early when we have seven days to get more information, particularly when there's people who haven't posted yet. I'm trying to think of is Enchant is the better play or not for today, although it's Roden who will likely draw the NK rather than either of them so we're going to be back in this same spot? Although, theoretically if DkKoba is telling the truth, we'll have more investigative info?

@Chaos: Weigh in on all of this?

[ShadowGirl]

Sorry mod, guess I wasn't clear that I wanted to UNVOTE: in my last post.

Still looking for Chaos to chime in with their thoughts about all of this.

One thing just occured to me. Let's actually do the massclaim.

Can you say why you still want a mass claim or no ?

I'm still fine with claiming, I just don't know what the benefit is when we have this 1 vs 1 situation.

[ShadowGirl]

Dwlee and DkKoba, what's your current reads list?

[ShadowGirl]

Dwlee and DkKoba, what's your current reads list?

[ShadowGirl]

VOTE: meuh
Nothing I've looked at convinces me that HEM is scum here

(March 25) Did Koba make their last post before or after this vote? What was the content of their last post to you in the hood?

Someone just hammer it

(March 28) This was your last post before N1, I believe. You didn't think to mention that Koba hadn't posted in 3 days in the hood?

[ShadowGirl]

Then before/after which posts (here)? Would that be allowed?

[ShadowGirl]

Just like IV and House were only T/T in a very specific world in my last mini normal.

(This is a crumb that is impossible to discern for now that ive explained to dwlee)

So in the hood DkKoba didn't explain this post to you ?

[ShadowGirl]

Dwlee and DkKoba, what's your current reads list?

Yes, I'm really going to keep quoting this lol

[ShadowGirl]

Dwlee and DkKoba, what's your current reads list?

Yes, I'm really going to keep quoting this lol

I think NK15 is scum for how they keep hopping on my wagon by giving lame excuses

Full player read list pls and thanks

[ShadowGirl]

Why would I do this just to be mislimmed and then ignored xd

If you're town, then work with me to understand where your head is at so you don't get mislimmed. DkKoba won't answer and help town. Are you going to do the same?

[ShadowGirl]

Why would I do this just to be mislimmed and then ignored xd

If you're town, then work with me to understand where your head is at so you don't get mislimmed. DkKoba won't answer and help town. Are you going to do the same?

Who do you want to talk about

Can you list who your town/null/scum reads are?

[ShadowGirl]

I would prefer if no one hammer Dwlee before they give their reads list.

[ShadowGirl]

who do you want to talk about

Like, the full playerlist.

[ShadowGirl]

who do you want to talk about

Like, the full playerlist.

No

Why not?

[ShadowGirl]

@Greeting: Have you caught up on D1 yet? I see a lot of mechanics talk (Roden is town because mason, Dwlee is scum because only one of the two claims can be true), but I don't see any talk of actual reads. Why do you inherently believe DkKoba over Dwlee? What is your take on the theory that DkKoba could be a traitor?

[ShadowGirl]

Ok, well, I read

Dwlee99

as scum, because they apparently lied about being a Simple Doctor when in fact they are a Neighborizer and the claim about this comes from a Rolecop.

Hope it helped.

(Traitor theory summed up.)

VOTE: Enchant

Just realized the issue with our current assumptions. If Koba actually is a Traitor, they actually gain a lot by faking a guilty on Dwlee. They essentially get to kill the Doc and send the main scum team to MELO for free. Koba getting caught lying doesn't matter if the scum team end up in MELO regardless, especially since all of the attention at that point has just been on Koba/Dwlee for two days straight, and scum doesn't have to build associatives or pretend to solve during that time.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't eliminate one of them; evidently one of them is lying. But how do you believe with such absolute certainty that DkKoba is not a fakeclaiming scum(/traitor)?

[ShadowGirl]

ShadowGirl.

Do you objectively believe Koba even shut up even as mafia?

If Greeting's reasoning for believing DkKoba is due to meta, then they can say that, but none of that is currently reflected in any of their posts. I am just trying to understand how they are 100% are certain that DkKoba is a (town) rolecop and that Dwlee is lying. They haven't even mentioned anything about the hood discussions, or that they even really have any reads at all on anyone.

[ShadowGirl]

I am truly shocked that neither of our two PR roles died?? I'm trying to understand what the play was.

shadow I did answer. you dont like the answer because it requires effort. I intentionally always do this when someone tries to push me to out reads list when i dont want to at the time.

read my ISO and my reads are fairly clear.

I can reply to this now that the Day was over; I did see that you put some reads information in your posts in that Day, I had purposely phrased my question to Dwlee in that way because I was hoping they might be inclined to answer it.

I'm pretty sure we just win now, don't we? We have three conftowns: me, Koba, and whoever the Vig is. Idk why they didn't kill any claimed roles but uh, I'm gonna still try to win if you just keep me around.

Is there any possibility of something wacky like a Serial Killer in place of the vig?

@DkKoba: did you get any significant results last night? Should we continue to massclaim?

[ShadowGirl]

How many Neighbors are there in the game? How many Neighborhoods are there in the game? Or maybe there is just one with like most of the playerlist and I'm the only one not invited to it?

How is this game even considered Normal.

I dunno, did you ever bother to reread D1 or are you still avoiding doing that so you don't have to actually form reads on people?

Vote: Greeting

[ShadowGirl]

I didn't read anything as well.

Trust me, I'm not pleased with your quickhammer either when it's clear that I was trying to engage with Greeting about their thoughts so +++ partner equity for you and them.

[ShadowGirl]

The hammer happened when I was asleep, but I wouldn't have given you my reads even if I were awake and in the game. Going after

Dwlee99

with a

Town Rolecop

guilty was the obvious way to go yesterday and you were actively trying to get me off that track. Me posting reads would have only served as a distraction.

The outcome of Day 2 makes me strongly doubt your intentions too.

I'm not a restaurant to serve reads for players on demand and your vote here isn't going to change it. I'm here to solve the game and will do it in my own time and on my own terms. The time for me to post reads will definitely come today, but they'll be ready when they're ready.

Cue italics, which you still have yet to explain how you had some sort of absolute certainty (particularly when you didn't read D1) that DkKoba was a Town Rolecop. I leaned towards believing them - and I voted Dwlee earlier in the day and I unvoted because I didn't want the day to end early (we had 3 1/2+ days around the quickhammer) while we could still gather information, particularly I wanted a read from your slot's predecessor, and then from you, as well as trying to get a reads list from Dwlee which might give us some direction on their scum partners.

[ShadowGirl]

VOTE: Shadowgirl

I'm still not following even with your quote what your reasoning is for voting me?

Well, not against purge of anime avatars.

VOTE: ShadowGirl

Do you have any actual thoughts or just a lol reasoning?

[ShadowGirl]

DkKoba, it's not that you didn't utilize your role well, but that we're all playing a (reasonably) friendly team game and that we don't need to get into personally attacking people. I know you feel like you personally solved the game but everyone is still allowed to have their own opinions/methods of playing and not to get into implying people play trash games.

I'm also going to go to bed, but since scum has been fairly obviously caught:

Vote: Dwlee99

I believe that's E-2.

I voted Dwlee to E-2 and then Roden voted to E-1 right after me, so obviously I was fine with that elimination. I didn't derail the Dwlee wagon by asking Greeting how they had absolute certainty that Dwlee was going to flip scum when they self-proclaimed that they hadn't read D1, nor had made any mention of hood discussions, or meta. I just wanted them to elaborate on their read.

I read rules for mini and no, SK can't exist here.

I don't know what you read, but it is possible:
Roles which are explicitly Normal for Serial Killer only include:
Serial Killer, Strongman, any roles listed as "for any alignment"

[ShadowGirl]

The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members). In mini games (at most 13 players), there must be exactly one such group, with no third parties. In large games (at least 14 players), a second anti-town group can be given a separate Mafia family name, or can be a Werewolf group, and there should be no more than two mafia/werewolf factions, and no more than one Serial Killer.

Oh, I didn't see that clause. I was just looking at the possible roles and saw that Serial Killer was listed there.

[ShadowGirl]

Maybe we're both scum

Nice try for when you flip scum, but no.

[ShadowGirl]

I'm pretty sure we just win now, don't we? We have three conftowns: me, Koba, and whoever the Vig is. Idk why they didn't kill any claimed roles but uh, I'm gonna still try to win if you just keep me around.

So sounds like Roden is a mason.

Why is Koba conf?

Koba and Dwlee were neighbours. On D2, Koba claimed Rolecop and they got only a 'Neighbour' result on them and that Dwlee had claimed roaming doctor to them in the neighbourhood private thread. Dwlee was voted as mafia, so that indicates that Koba is town.

There is no one that has currently claimed vig.

[ShadowGirl]

this is why i outted you roden rofl
I have 0 patience for clears who play like you do when im busy fucking up scum
My legacy is tictac + chaos, if either are a miss, shadowgirl should be a hit.

Cool Koba traitor with Shadowgirl looks real legit due to Rule of 3

Is this the only link that you've made up? Do you actually have any case against me? Do you have any opinions on the other two players or only me, because I currently have votes?

two scum hood

doesn't seem to me a thing that might exist.
can u cite a game where one did?

I have to head to a dr appt but I repped into a game where I was traitor scum and had a hood with my buddy.

i'm not in a hurry

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284&user_select%5B%5D=32319

There you go

Like I am much more sure on Koba but will compromise to where Roden wants.

I find it shady that you're trying to put all of the responsibility of the (mis)elimination choice on Roden so that your hands are clean.

No, it was to fake spew Dwlee as town. I faked a slip to draw attention away from my scum buddies and create fake associatives with town. I mainly did so because my slot was doomed even if I bussed Dwlee, but it wasn't true the other way around.

This isn't happening with you vs Dwlee because you both opened today attacking each other. If Dwlee is scum I think it's reasonable to think they would try to fake spew.

Meant to add: who would benefit from pushing Dwlee now?

Greeting pushed Dwlee based no actual read information. They could not give me any reasoning as to why they believed DkKoba's claim, as if they knew Dwlee was going to flip scum and could be certain of the town cred so they had no need to actually say anything.

There has been next to no productive content from the lurky Chaos/Greeting/NM slot. What has Greeting and NM contributed at all?

[ShadowGirl]

I think it's opposite and gives point's instead.

How so?

[ShadowGirl]

Idk i am not on like people with long reads and reasonings why they vote, just for sake of kill of blatant maf.

But Greeting gave no reasoning for their belief. There was no mention of hood, or meta, or anything. I'm not calling them scummy because they didn't give an essay. They gave zero reasoning. Nor did they provide any reads about anyone else other than saying that Roden is town because he's a mason. They provided no reads content at all.

[ShadowGirl]

Because Dwlee was blatant evil for everyone who can answer "2+2"

Also answer is 5.

So by your own logic they should have been able to give come up with at least one thing to say as a read on them.

[ShadowGirl]

Well ye

And yet they didn't...

[ShadowGirl]

Idk i am not on like people with long reads and reasonings why they vote, just for sake of kill of blatant maf.

This is actually why I'm currently pushing Shadow.

I'm not going to let lurk scum get off easy. It was a struggle to get Chaos to say anything and there has been no reads content from that slot since then.

[ShadowGirl]

I am not sure what you’re talking about with “made up link”. I didn’t post any hyperlinks. I suspect Koba. Koba listed three people who could be scum. More often than not one of those three is scum. Is it foolproof, no? Is it a good place to start when I haven’t read? Yes.

I am not putting all responsibility on Roden. I am merely deferring to the person who is read and town. I don’t have a good reason you’re town and you’re a viable partner of Koba’s so compromising here makes sense until I can read the game especially when it might be elo.

You want to vote me out based on that you think Koba is scum. So why are you not voting Koba right now? That's why it's a made up link because you don't actually have any case against me, other than supposing that I am scum with Koba - based on what?

I meant your posts regarding Dwlee.

They knew Koba was going to push them on Day 2 if one of the suspected Masons died. They also knew they'd likely lose a 1v1 with Koba, since Koba's good at throwing their weight around and pushing elims through + they were generally more town read. So if they know they're going down, I feel confident they're gonna tell their scum buddies to bus and get as much town cred as they can possibly get from their elim. Which is why I think it's telling that you tried to solve and incriminate Dwlee more than anyone else.

Your push on the Greeting slot is scummy because it's the perfect position for a deep wolf to take. You're on the wagon but shading Greeting for being "too confident" that Dwlee flips red. It sets you up to have a reason to push the slot and look solvey going into the next day.

That slot - Chaos - was my preferred D1 elimination. I was pushing that slot on D1, so it is not that I suddenly decided that they were scummy on D2. And of course as town I want to get more info for town, particularly from the slot that did so little in D1 and was doing nothing in D2.

If I have to flip town today so town can wake up to how absolutely lurky and scummy the Chaos/Greeting/NM slot is so that town can ultimately win, then I will accept that, so we don't mess up in the end game.

[ShadowGirl]

And I am a Vanilla Townie.

[ShadowGirl]

This if my theory is correct would also be elo. However my theory may not be correct so I want time to validate and see it.

For today being ELO is the math that there's 1 traitor + 1 scum left and then if there's a mislim today and then the vig also shooting wrong in the night?

[ShadowGirl]

No it would require two more group scum and a traitor.

Mainly I am a bit confused if the wagons are TVT why you or NM are not hammered.

So we would have 4 scum total in a 12 person game? I haven't played in a nearly a decade so I don't know if that is a set-up that is likely?

Because only NM got to 3 votes (and wasn't hammered). I've only ever been up to two votes.

[ShadowGirl]

I'm here to answer whatever you would like me to about of my reads. I welcome you to go through my ISO, which shows that the NM slot is one that I've been honed in on as lurky/scummy since I replaced in.

Also me being adamant about not ending a day early and getting more info is something that I have made clear about how I play:

ChaosOmega

VOTE: GuiltyLion E-2

I also scumread NK15, the tone in their posting feels fabricated almost to the point like I'm reading a robot. The hyperfocus on the 1 scum/1 traitor thing is silly. It feels really unlikely that GL and NK15 are partnered given NK15's shift onto the wagon, so I think I'm wrong on at least one of my top reads here.

E-2 vote on GL while scumreading NK15 who hasn’t posted in many pages. Would it not make sense to withhold vote and get more info from people (particularly inactive) before an elimination? Also, if NK15 is your scumread, then you should field some question his way as well? Also gives an easy out if GL flips town and to move onto NK15 D2 that what you're sure of is that you have at least one read wrong.

[ShadowGirl]

This might sound rather rude but I worry about NM no matter what because he just trolls/scums as any alignment.

Can you briefly say what NM has done to make you feel that way?

My vote was for their predecessor Greeting, at the beginning of the day, which was based on D2 play, and again, I've been finding their previous predecessor, Chaos, to be lurky and scummy. But NM themselves hasn't done anything productive since they've replaced in to give me any reason to believe that slot is trying/is town. I have limited past experience with NM. But I have believed this slot was scummy since D1, and they were my preferred D1 elimination target, which changed/compromised on my vote that we were reaching deadline on D1 and that wagon had fizzled out. The person who I ended up voting for on D1 was again due to me believing they had a link to Chaos(/Greeting/NM) slot.

The place that I'm currently at is that I feel that there are just as many people avoiding the Chaos wagon, so that is still my preference, but that I will vote for Meuh as we're coming down to the (deadline) wire, as the 3 vote flip flop was sketch (+ avoiding Chaos wagon).

[ShadowGirl]

Maybe we're both scum

Nice try for when you flip scum, but no.

Also I found this comment by them shady (which I called), that for when they flip, to put a shroud over me by their trolling.

[ShadowGirl]

Also me being adamant about not ending a day early and getting more info is something that I have made clear about how I play:

ur attitude when notmaf put himself in L-1 was different tho.

No one said they had intent to hammer NM and NM is able to unvote themselves, so it's not as if there was really a possibility that the Day was about to end abruptly early, so it's not really the same.

i should vote at this point
VOTE: MathBlade

Is your vote based only on Math's behaviour from replacing in or does any of how marci acted factor in?
What is your current read on Enchant?

[ShadowGirl]

Is your vote based only on Math's behaviour from replacing in or does any of how marci acted factor in?
What is your current read on Enchant?

it's poe, not really anything math has done.
enchant is still town.

Can you say why Enchant is super town to you?

[ShadowGirl]

i can do a case if it's needed 4 some reason? it's more accumulation of small town things tho.

No essay needed, just what might have been like the top number 1 thing that stood out to you.

[ShadowGirl]

I already said tictac is scum but no one wants to sheep lol

I hadn't seen the possibility of tictac scum before, but just looking through HEM's posts (assuming them to be the scum NK target, and seeing what their reads were) and feel like I had a possible galaxy brain moment (monkey make some primate noises in heaven for me if I'm on the right track):

can you help me read tictac better? i have townvibes, but i haven't seen anything town-indicative. but you seem to believe he's town enough to sheep his read.

so it's Meuh, ChaosOmega, NK15/tictac right?

i wonder how right this solve is

i wanna start with ChaosOmega regardless

Ok... HEM, what's your read on GuiltyLion, and tictac?

i have no clear read on tictac. they're in my PoE. i townread GL from their reaction to my wagon and how fast it built up and who was on his wagon.

i still think you could be scum, NK15. sorry.

i dont want to end this day without having any extended conversations with tictac, enchant, chaosomega, and NK15,

i also still believe tictac-enchant-dwlee tbh

i can live in both worlds

Although there was similarly as many things that also showed HEM scumreading Enchant too - but if scum!Enchant - given that Roden was doing the same on D2 and wanted to flip them, I feel like that Roden would have been the NK then given their confirmed town status since they were going after Enchant even harder? I'm still torn on the two possibilities between tictac or Enchant as last scum, but I can see a definite possibility of how it could possibly be tictac. Obviously from my point view Math could have put me at E-1 and had me hammered by NM by now if they were the scum team, so I am not inclined to believe Math to be scum.

I'm still of a mind the 1vs1 of me and NM should be resolved today rather than a third party, again if I get chosen today (and everyone will see me flip town) then the NM slot can be voted out the following day, rather than leaving this uncertain situation for ELO if someone else gets voted out today. For now, I'm just going to try and leave as many legacy posts as I can, to show what connections I've made in my thinking, so that can be of future help to town to comb through these interactions.

[ShadowGirl]

I am wondering if it’s a 1v1 at all though.

TicTac + Enchant aren’t elimming either
I know I am not scum
Koba + anyone isn’t taking the elims.

So I am a bit confused as to what scum are doing.

So NM + tictac scum theory in my POV as to what could be happening, following the Day chronologically:
- tictac initially voted Greeting/(now NM slot) possibly as a bus, and I will also say that I have very much townread tictac all game so if NM did get voted out today, my vote likely would have gone on Enchant the following day as that was who I was scumreading aside from NM, so they do have some other incentive to possibly keep me.
- tictac was either baiting for me to fake hammer NM to so that I can look scummy and the gambit reads well on them OR when I didn't, they defended me which again, made me townread them even more or + if I get voted out today and flip town, they can show they were defending me.
- tictac is pushing an elimination on you, a third party to this 1vs1 (potential vig - it's basically between you and Enchant as choices for that in this scenario - and as tictac has the belief you've really been hard softing - so they can run you up and get a claim, and if you're townie, they know where the vig is then), if you!VT gets voted out, it leaves the me/NM vote to tomorrow, and considering whatever make-up of town there is, it's a heavy possibility it ends up being me the elimination, as Roden, DkKoba, and Enchant have all already voted for me today and none of whom have voted NM so far.
- Or if tictac genuinely believes you are the vig, then they just need to get 2 other people on the wagon and NM will hammer, who is already so scummy looking but at least they can potentially take out the vig today (even if it means NM gets voted out tomorrow), as currently of your reads you seem most likely to shoot either of them if you survive today (if you are the vig), or at least that's 2 out of 3 choices (DkKoba being who else you've scumread). And the other 2 people who get on the wagon also end up looking horrible the following day.

In general I just get super odd vibes that almost 50% of their total posting in this game has been on this day, and a lot of it is spent arguing with you/trying to get you voted out/bringing attention to you softing or not vig.

[ShadowGirl]

What about tictac and Enchant?

I just would think either me or NM would have been hammered already earlier in the day? Or by now? NM already was up to 3 votes before you replaced in, so if it was about prolonging the day to sussing out a vig claim between NM/me/you(/marci), then one of tictac or Enchant would have asked for a claim from NM? Given that there was no ask for a claim, then it would indicate scum would know that there's no information to be gained from bothering to ask NM (which leans to me to NM being one of the scum). Just the fact of if both me and NM are both town, then voting out either of us - and that we'll flip town - already sets up an easy vote for the following day and tictac doesn't need to get into it with you so aggressively, when they can just cruise through into the next day, since at the point before they were arguing you, you were leaning towards me thinking I was scum, so tictac+Enchant could just have voted out NM and then gone for me next day, with you (? if vig) shooting DkKoba in the night. Or otherwise if now they are just trying to completely stay off the mislimmed wagon so that it's you/Roden/DkKoba/NM if on me, or then me/NM's self vote + 2 others that are not them on NM wagon?

That's the stream of consciousness my brain gave me before sleep so apologies if it's a mess lol

So I'm not saying it's not a possible team, but in terms of possibilities, this feels to me, on the less likely side in terms of the logic of what is happening right now. But if you have some insights on why you think that tictac+Enchant makes more sense to you, I'm happy to hear it.

GL suspected Gamma (who is Enchant)
HEM suspected Koba.

Koba Enchant is also a possibility.

Brain is confused.

But then why does confirmed town Roden survive N2 over not confirmed HEM, who had similar suspicions on Koba/Enchant?

[ShadowGirl]

Because PR hunting or vig hunting or Roden didn’t suspect Koba because of the “clear”? Not sure

None of this adds up.

There was no second kill during N1, so I don't know how logical it would be for scum to speculate on there being a vig with no evidence of that? PR hunting also doesn't make as much sense to me when the mason/confirmed town just feels so powerful, and I don't see scum fearing a possible doctor protect on Roden because if there was a doctor then they would likely have counterclaimed Dwlee on D2. So that means Roden is a very possible choice N2.

And Roden was so adamant on Enchant at the end of D2:

Please flip Enchant tomorrow, thanks.

And Roden is far more likely to get sheeped/be a town leader than HEM due to being confirmed town, so if it's tictac+Enchant then I don't see why HEM gets picked over Roden.

So under a tictac+NM scum team, I feel like the likely plan was for Roden to lead an Enchant mislim, which is someone out of the remaining players I don't think anyone was super townreading them - outside of tictac. I think that plan got messed up when I voted Greeting and then Roden ended up voting me and D3 instead becoming this 1vs1 between me and NM.

[ShadowGirl]

Why anyone would reveal self as Doctor, when Dwlee99 was blatant scum and dying like 99%

I feel like that's a misrep of early D2, as there was a point even you believed Dwlee could be telling the truth. Obviously in hindsight it feels easy to say it was a sure thing by the end of the day, but that's not what the vibe was in the beginning of the day. Anyways, that was a sub point of my post, in that I was trying to understand why Roden would still be alive today over HEM. Why do you think Roden is still alive today, then?

[ShadowGirl]

What’s a sub point?

In that the main point of my post was that I don't see why Roden would not have been shot on N2. I just don't know reasonable it would be to not shoot him due to a doctor assumption.

I feel like that's a misrep of early D2, as there was a point even you believed Dwlee could be telling the truth. Obviously in hindsight it feels easy to say it was a sure thing by the end of the day, but that's not what the vibe was in the beginning of the day. Anyways, that was a sub point of my post, in that I was trying to understand why Roden would still be alive today over HEM. Why do you think Roden is still alive today, then?

I will get banned for that.

You will get banned for saying why you think Roden is alive over HEM?

[ShadowGirl]

Also about NM.

He mostly unvotes self if there's risk of elim or ELO.

And he didn't? So he must feel pretty safe (being scum) - and which if there were two scum on the wagon, then there would be every reason to think he wasn't at risk. Or that if he did flip, it would benefit who was on the wagon.

[3] Not_Mafia: ShadowGirl,

tictac, Not_Mafia

[2] ShadowGirl: Roden, Enchant
[1] tictac: DkKoba

[1] Not voting: marcistar

With 7 players alive, 4 votes are needed for an elimination.

D3: deadline: (expired on 2022-04-15 04:25:15)

[ShadowGirl]

Also about NM.

He mostly unvotes self if there's risk of elim or ELO.

And he didn't? So he must feel pretty safe (being scum) - and which if there were two scum on the wagon, then there would be every reason to think he wasn't at risk. Or that if he did flip, it would benefit who was on the wagon.

[3] Not_Mafia: ShadowGirl,

tictac, Not_Mafia

[2] ShadowGirl: Roden, Enchant
[1] tictac: DkKoba

[1] Not voting: marcistar

With 7 players alive, 4 votes are needed for an elimination.

D3: deadline: (expired on 2022-04-15 04:25:15)

Is this ShadowGirl telling on herself she’s scum with NM? I get that vibe. Not sure why I do.

If I am scum why would I make this point to bring attention to it? Like obviously other than NM themselves there's me and tictac on the wagon. I am just trying to show what NM/tictac connections there are.

Math claimed Vig?

Well it easies a bit, then probably Shadow+NM?

I feel like if NM does get voted out today and does flip scum, you're trying to set me up that we could be scum partners, which makes almost no sense when I have been going after them from the moment that I replaced into this game. Also, if I'm scum with NM, why do I start off the day with aggressively going after their slot (Greeting), rather than going after really anyone else, or for instance voting for tictac with DkKoba, for instance? Show me what your logic is that me and NM are scum partners because it doesn't make sense.

[ShadowGirl]

This is exactly what scum rb said in mini normal 2046.

I don't even remember that you offered to lynch january on day 1... was january your town read at that point?

well, I think 'follow the conftown' is a pretty commonsense strat so not surprising that other people have thought about it too.
and yes, I did tr january at the time.

this is possibly the scummiest thing you've said

okay. I still think it's a good strat tho.

VOTE: Zenith

pre-empting predictable response from shadow

I am confused?

I think it's a preemptive defense of that I'm probably going to say that it's shady to change his vote to me over NM only due to sheeping Roden and not actually having a reads change about me? So with the preemptive quote making it so that it's not valid for me to say that.

[ShadowGirl]

Why are you defending tictac here?

None of that makes any sense. Why is tictac preemptively defending against you when I don’t think these people are players. Should be just a simple “dude is talking about wrong game” why the defense? Did you read the post?

I'm not defending them, it's the opposite. I'm saying that he's likely trying to preemptively discredit me if I call them out for voting me on of the basis of sheeping Roden and no other reason because from what I understand of the quoted post, their point is that 'sheeping confirmed town is a totally valid strategy'.

[ShadowGirl]

Why are you defending tictac here?

None of that makes any sense. Why is tictac preemptively defending against you when I don’t think these people are players. Should be just a simple “dude is talking about wrong game” why the defense? Did you read the post?

I'm not defending them, it's the opposite. I'm saying that he's likely trying to preemptively discredit me if I call them out for voting me on of the basis of sheeping Roden and no other reason because from what I understand of the quoted post, their point is that 'sheeping confirmed town is a totally valid strategy'.

Wait so why is sheeping conf town valid when tictac does it but bad if I do it?

I didn't say that at all? I think you're getting confused with what I'm saying: I was pointing out that tictac preemptively whipped out a self meta of himself before I had even said anything, where in another game (as per the quote) he had sheeped a confirmed town (as town alignment), so that I can't say that it's scummy for him to sheep in this game. Because if tictac wants to vote me, he has to backtrack from his earlier self in the day where he showed that he believes me over NM and thus needs to find a reason of why to vote me now, hence the sheeping reasoning.

[ShadowGirl]

theories that dont fit will naturally have holes and I will happily expose them all now help me kill shadowgirl, the scum who thought I was going to just tunnel the same reads and would never flip onto her.

What? We've been clashing all game. If I'm scum, why would I think that you're more likely to be on my side over HEM, who has been townreading me and I have gotten along with super well all game? I can't see what is logical about me as scum keeping you around over HEM.

So realistically I think strictly mechanically Dwlee claimed doctor in a setup with a known vig.

Dwlee is a competent scum player so they don’t claim doctor without a damn good reason to.

Broadly, there was no way for town to know there was a vig until today, since there was no second kill on N1. Does that mean scum might be "informed"? Or otherwise the only other way to find out roles is DkKoba with their rolecop ability.

[ShadowGirl]

ok well I expected at most to only get 1 guilty on a potential traitor rofl

you realize the game started *at* 12 players?

Yes. That’s my point.

And no. You’d get 2 checks off unless you’re lying about being blocked.

Did I miss something? Did DkKoba say they got blocked? I'm trying to catch up on what's happening with the set-up talk.

the way you are trying to twist the facts to fit this kind of theory is ngl pretty encouraging for me for finding you scum, thanks for that

You saying I would keep you around as scum because you'd never think me scummy is pretty illogical since there hasn't been any point in this game you've townread me so it's hard not to see it as something other than illogical pushing.

[ShadowGirl]

Iirc Roden said Koba was blocked or scum. So I was taking that as Koba was blocked.

I wonder if there's another possibility, like if there's any mechanics on the scum side that can possibly alter results? Or that somehow they can get a false clear? I am trying to think of why DkKoba as town would be alive and I wonder if scum want DkKoba to claim on them for some reason? I asked DkKoba at the beginning of the day if they had significant results (hoping we could catch another scum like on D2), and tictac pushed on DkKoba's response to me, like they really wanted them to share their results:

I'm not claiming anything mechanical until its relevant.

u gonna be nkd tho

[ShadowGirl]

I'm of a similar mind to agree with Roden in his post about his points as to DkKoba being town, which is that the D2 play felt early if scum (rather than why not do it D3, for instance?), and that I think it's a combination of that scum might be hoping town votes them out because of the paradox of "how can they be alive if they're town" and due to my thoughts in my longer previous posts about what their reads were on certain players and how scum likely wanted them around to push them those people. DkKoba as scum is not something that is entirely out of the realm of possibilities, but in general, I still prefer the resolution of the 1vs1 of me/NM to be done today rather than to be left for ELO, because that route feels safer for town rather than for instance potentially mislimming the town rolecop. And NM scum to me is something that I feel far more certain about than any other possibilities.

[ShadowGirl]

From where I stand the best way to convince you Koba is scum is to have them be on the wagon of whoever they flip.

They can either bus, which means I can take them out tomorrow, or they don’t. If the wagon is Koba, Enchanr, Roden, plus one then people find that plus one suspicious. When in reality it’s Koba they should find suspicious.

My guess is Shadowgirl gets elimmed with a pool of Roden, Enchant, Koba, tictac and flips green and it’s what you all need to elim Koba

But when I go green isn't the safer play for town to go for NM as a surefire scum? I don't see how me and NM could be TvsT when I have basically staked my life on this flip. The easy route if NM was also town was for NM to get voted out and I nearly for certain would get voted out the following day. (Or vice versa of me getting voted out as town today, but it's a much a stronger case to leave me and vote me out the following day given how adamant I've been about NM's slot). I don't see how NM isn't in the scum team given the current stall of wagons. So even if you do think it's DkKoba in the scum team, it still is safer play as town to go after NM first (if I get voted out today).

[ShadowGirl]

You’ve staked your life on NM scum.
NM + Koba is possible yes.

But that doesn’t mean you are.
I believe NM is lock scum to you.

It’s just that Koba is 100% and on your town flip then NM is 50/50.

Continuing the scenario of assuming me town (or just what it's in my head in my POV) and thinking of the game state and based on your two possibilities, then if NM isn't scum (it being 50/50 to you), then it's DkKoba+tictac, but that block of two could already have coordinated to vote out either me or NM already (again, the easy play is to vote NM out and I get voted out the following day because of my fervent position). Why wouldn't they have done that already? I think that's where I struggle in the scenario of imagining a DkKoba+tictac scumteam.

[ShadowGirl]

Also if it's DkKoba+tictac, then DkKoba already knows where the vig is, so why does tictac go after you so hard due to potentially having bought into your fake softing, MathBlade, and to vote you and to hopefully get you to claim? DkKoba's role, whatever the alignment, is proven. So tictac+DkKoba scum team already knows where the vig is and doesn't need to go looking for it.

[ShadowGirl]

My guess is they want the extra kill from the no elim. That applies for NM or Tictac.

As to why the day play today I am not sure. I was under the impression originally vig hunting but other things have pinged me more in regards to Koba/tictac than Koba/NM.

But regardless none of my scumpool are viable elims with Koba and Roden a package unit on you and no one wants them and if I push them the game turns toxic because I disagree with the pocketed townies so I am at a loss other than pointing out what will happen.

I haven't seen anyone suggest a no elim so far? tictac has expressed sheeping Roden onto me, so that would make it the third vote on my wagon. But it is true we are soon getting down to deadline.

But yeah, a sizable part of my reservations of DkKoba+tictac include tictac's vig hunting which is not needed since that scum team already knows where vig is so I am trying to see what the point of tictac potentially baiting you to confirm yourself as vig (or not) is when that pairing would already know where it is?

So the only thing I can think of is Enchant being on the Shadow wagon then seeing who votes after Enchant.

I mean, pretty much a guarantee that NM just hammers me in that scenario if Enchant is the third vote on me since it's... NM. (Or whoever the third vote might be.)

I feel your frustration, Math, because I think spiritually we're in a similar emotional place but for different people lol

[ShadowGirl]

Ok nevermind Mathblade is scum rofl

So you think tictac was bus-ing? Or what would be the reasoning for their vig argument?

[ShadowGirl]

Ok nevermind Mathblade is scum rofl

So you think tictac was bus-ing? Or what would be the reasoning for their vig argument?

unless u mean ench-town, i'm not aware that i've made an argument about vigs.

wanted to wait to see if roden became clearer on what he wants, but going to bed soon so..

VOTE: shadow

That was just a shorthand about your back and forth with Math on pages 80-81.

Also don't think tictac ever came to explain what they meant about this:

This is exactly what scum rb said in mini normal 2046.

I don't even remember that you offered to lynch january on day 1... was january your town read at that point?

well, I think 'follow the conftown' is a pretty commonsense strat so not surprising that other people have thought about it too.
and yes, I did tr january at the time.

this is possibly the scummiest thing you've said

okay. I still think it's a good strat tho.

VOTE: Zenith

pre-empting predictable response from shadow

Anyways, before NM likely swoops in to hammer, my legacy read is NM + tictac.

[ShadowGirl]

Shadow why are you so convinced NM is scum?

Math why are you so convinced Koba is scum?

It's essentially the entire progression of the slot:

Chaos:

ChaosOmega

VOTE: GuiltyLion E-2

I also scumread NK15, the tone in their posting feels fabricated almost to the point like I'm reading a robot. The hyperfocus on the 1 scum/1 traitor thing is silly. It feels really unlikely that GL and NK15 are partnered given NK15's shift onto the wagon, so I think I'm wrong on at least one of my top reads here.

E-2 vote on GL while scumreading NK15 who hasn’t posted in many pages. Would it not make sense to withhold vote and get more info from people (particularly inactive) before an elimination? Also, if NK15 is your scumread, then you should field some question his way as well? Also gives an easy out if GL flips town and to move onto NK15 D2 that what you're sure of is that you have at least one read wrong.

Obviously now with hindsight of alignments, we know both of these players were town alignment. So if GL got voted out D1 they could just say they were wrong about them and go right to NK15.

They then voted Gamma based what is similar to their own reason of being able to pivot from a GL town flip:

VOTE: Gamma

The L-1 vote with no conviction even though he's mentioned GL as a suspect reads bad, like he knows GL will flip town and is already trying to pivot. It coming right after GL's post that my vote is +town for bravery is a funny juxtaposition. Have to go, will be back on later tonight.

They then pretty heavily lurked, which finally culminated on a compromise vote on Meuh but it didn't seem like they really believed in it/scumread them, so it's an easy out when Meuh flips town.

Apologies, life events have not lined up well with this game. If I need to be prodded again, I'm going to ask for replacement.

It looks like the wagons are between Meuh and HEM and no one's interested in Gamma/Enchant, so I'll make my vote useful.

VOTE: Meuh

Greeting:

In general, the entirety of D2 was basic mechtalk, and gave zero actual reads on anyone, which then extended onto D3.

Greeting pushed Dwlee based no actual read information. They could not give me any reasoning as to why they believed DkKoba's claim, as if they knew Dwlee was going to flip scum and could be certain of the town cred so they had no need to actually say anything.

There's no need to actually give any reads information on Dwlee, because whatever they might say can be picked apart as to whether it feels like a genuine thought or not, and they know that the flip itself will 'vindicate' them because their scum partner, Dwlee will flip scum.

NM:

Have they actually posted any productive content since they have replaced in? It feels like they border on a troll account as it is, but if they were town they could give even... a little bit to try and be productive.

And given the game state of the stall:

I don't see how me and NM could be TvsT when I have basically staked my life on this flip. The easy route if NM was also town was for NM to get voted out and I nearly for certain would get voted out the following day. (Or vice versa of me getting voted out as town today, but it's a much a stronger case to leave me and vote me out the following day given how adamant I've been about NM's slot). I don't see how NM isn't in the scum team given the current stall of wagons. So even if you do think it's DkKoba in the scum team, it still is safer play as town to go after NM first (if I get voted out today).

A greater elaboration about NM+tictac is at #2022. In light of the competing wagons that were happening (tictac's vote on MathBlade, now the DkKoba wagon created by MathBlade, or DkKoba saying they would be interested in a tictac wagon), basically everyone has the incentive for 1) NM not to get voted out today and/or 2) for the resolution of NM/me not to happen today and leave this uncertain situation for the following day and then + bonus of mislimming a different town. So I know it could be NM + someone else, but I don't see how NM is not included in the pair. As long as this post is I tried to keep it concise, but if you just ISO me I have greater elaborated on my thoughts on this slot, or I'm happy to speak more on a particular point.

[ShadowGirl]

@MathBlade: If it is DkKoba, in N2, why does unconfirmed town HEM die over confirmed Roden, who similarly believed (as of what they were saying in D2) that DkKoba's D2 play could have been fake?

[ShadowGirl]

Because Roden also wanted Enchant and a pocketed mason means you don’t have to focus on defense. They will push your miselims for you. At this point Koba clearly didn’t know Enchant was a vig whatever their alignment hence the check. But Koba scum would know Enchant is town and therefore Roden would have wrong reads. HEM wouldn’t.

But based on D2, I don't feel like Roden was pocketed at all at that time. So DkKoba as scum is taking a gamble on it being 50/50 that a confirmed town wants to go either after them or Enchant on D3, assuming that their check on Enchant was indeed done on N2. And if DkKoba is scum, do you have any speculation about who they would have rolecopped on N1? Since in this scenario they're not investigating Dwlee on N1.

[ShadowGirl]

Deadline is in the middle of the night for me, so I won't be around for that... and given that we've had 2 replacements in this Day, and NM is about to be prodded for inactivity for the second time, I think it might be reasonable to ask for an extension?

[ShadowGirl]

I guess it doesn't hurt to just ask:

Mod, can we get a small extension on deadline?

[ShadowGirl]

So what's the case for scum theatre?

Essentially that whoever stays alive when the other has flipped scum, that person becomes locktown. If you actually want to read a longer case on it, just ISO MathBlade since that's their top scum pick.

Mainly just posting right now to say that I'm here and that I won't log off without having posted that I have. I'm not sure what we do right now with three way deadlock.

[ShadowGirl]

If you actually want to read a longer case on it

[ShadowGirl]

2) I think Dwlee was fucked no matter what. Their claims and arguments were too contradictory and they'd get caught if they weren't immediately NK'd. If they were SvS then the third scum had to push Dwlee, which still points to Shadow. Koba also directly antagonized me after claiming a guilty on Dwlee, which just seems counterintuitive if Dwlee needs to lose that 1v1.

I'm not sure why this points to me, given that if the play was town cred for the third scum, I wasn't actually on the wagon when Dwlee got eliminated because I unvoted to try and get more info out of Dwlee and Greeting, so it would make more sense that I would never have even unvoted at all if that was the play? Greeting and tictac, however, were on the wagon at the time of elimination.

I'm completely nodding off so I'm going to go to sleep very soon and... I also don't know what I can do vote-wise to help stave off a no elim and resolve the 1vs1 between me and NM. Since even a self vote just puts myself at 2, which NM is at anyways with my current vote on them.

[ShadowGirl]

Because Koba to me is lock scum where as Tic/NM are maybes

And the Koba wagon when I voted was protest.

Right now Koba is viable and I don’t want to break a viable wagon this close to deadline

But you'll change if there's another potential vote for NM or you would go to no elim? You were the one who originally brought up that no elim benefits scum most because they get a free NK.

@Thread I am willing to consolidate on NM but want NM’s opinion on Koba first

Also idk if you are going to pop up in the last hour of deadline, but your current vote is not helping avoiding no elim:

I'll vote NM if it forces an elimination + helps shed light on the gamestate better. I'd normally suggest we use enchant for an elim at night instead but I would prefer not to be blasted here

VOTE: Mathblade

[ShadowGirl]

and thanks for modding Norwee!

Kinda glad I got limmed early lol, my reads would’ve been garbage and I think I had some significant partner equity with Dwlee so I probably would’ve been limmed sooner or later

Sorry for voting you out Meuh. I was wrong for the right reasons(?). I was sure of Chaos as scum and I had HEM as locktown, so you the D1 compromise vote for me... considering DkKoba was pushing you so hard if you flipped town I would have pretty sure of them as scum (but the D2 guilty scrambled my thoughts on them).
But I honoured your death with an avi. <3

[ShadowGirl]

GG to everyone and thank you Norwee for modding!

Nonono dw! Limming me was very reasonable, and you had some of the best reads this game so that doesn’t mean much in the greater scheme of things
Scum!me fit well with the rest of your reads so it makes a whole lot of sense
Love the avi, thank you <3
and welcome back! You played really well for your first game in a long time, I’m impressed

Thank you for the compliment. I cannot say how much on a spiritual, emotional level, I felt vindicated that NM flipped scum, and also I didn't want to say on that on a personal level I would have been just a bit salty to get voted out over NM lol
If Enchant didn't shoot DkKoba over night, tictac was pinging in all weird ways but I think MathBlade might have been able to convince me. (Marci, my pink haired anime sister, I miss you.) But MathBlade, I had a lot of fun playing with you and bouncing ideas with you and also thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Also, I truly, truly believed all that vig softing so good job lmao

theories that dont fit will naturally have holes and I will happily expose them all now help me kill shadowgirl, the scum who thought I was going to just tunnel the same reads and would never flip onto her.

What? We've been clashing all game. If I'm scum, why would I think that you're more likely to be on my side over HEM, who has been townreading me and I have gotten along with super well all game? I can't see what is logical about me as scum keeping you around over HEM.

I was like in what scum world do I not shoot you lol this is probably what pinged me hard on D3 as illogical scum pushing. But the D2 play did do enough to mess up my read on you, and I also doubted myself because you just seemed in general like a very strong voice (whatever alignment) and that we also just didn't mesh on our opinions of certain play tactics so I didn't want to base my scum read on you on us not getting along (even though I guess my gut was right!).

ShadowGirl is kind of a POE pick but I don't think she's actually done anything townie? like she's giving reasonable seeming Opinions on stuff but none of it has once struck me as something that would be out of range of being faked by a capable wolf. I'm least sure of this read but I got a lot of town vibes elsewhere and she hasn't felt townie enough herself to dislodge anyone else

Thanks to everyone who said my play could come from capable scum (when this was my first game after 9 years!), because the fact is I play atrociously as scum, but I really had no way to refute those claims without seeming scummy lmao

Oh god, I'm so glad I stopped tunneling Shadow enough to unvote

I was like damn, what did I do to make you tunnel me so much? I really enjoyed playing with you and you had me cracking up so much with your comments on page 38.

@MathBlade:

I feel your frustration, Math, because I think spiritually we're in a similar emotional place but for different people lol

And does that mean me and MathBlade are now also able to start every sentence now with 'As I have caught scum and you haven't...' a la DkKoba?

[ShadowGirl]

@Enchant: Thank you for not shooting me in the face if you were considering it and I think your choices were really good. Sorry I scumread you, as a lot of it was based on how I felt about Gamma, plus I never ever picked up on you being vig, and you were scumreading me, so out of the PoE you were a viable choice to me.

@HEM: I was gutted when you got shot because I thought we were vibing really well together and I liked playing with you.

@MathBlade:
Basically, I ended up initially townreading you due to giving me the benefit of the doubt, and then vigreading you due to the fact I townread you (also marci saying that she thought HEM was town, so I knew the vig shot was not HEM). So I was wildly wrong about the vig and hence why I kept scumreading Enchant because I didn't pick up on that at all. I will say that it's amazing that DkKoba guessed Novice trait. I don't have enough setup meta knowledge due to not having played in nearly ten years, so I didn't feel confident on scumreading based on that.

[ShadowGirl]

@DkKoba: Also looking at my #733 post and your #735, if in the future you ever dismiss everything I say by calling me a boomer, I know you're scum. I didn't have any faith in going 1vs1 against you on D1 because how much town influence you had and hence continued to gun for Chaos instead.

[ShadowGirl]

Not often people actually express that they enjoyed playing with me. Usually express frustration towards my town playstyle. So you're actually special ShadowGirl! I liked playing with you too!

I think it definitely helped that we were on the same wavelength about Chaos+DkKoba, and your playstyle seemed like a good foil to mine with posting a lot and really trying to change up the wagons/game state movement, which helped me lean back and analyze how people were reacting, so we felt like a good crime fighting (scum hunting) duo. Basically from super early on with playing you I never considered jumping on your D1 wagon and that I would never have voted for you in the future. 'twas my D3 mission to avenge your death!

I already said tictac is scum but no one wants to sheep lol

I hadn't seen the possibility of tictac scum before, but just looking through HEM's posts (assuming them to be the scum NK target, and seeing what their reads were) and feel like I had a possible galaxy brain moment (monkey make some primate noises in heaven for me if I'm on the right track):

Sorry to tictac for scumreading you at the end, but paranoia really got at me because I had you as locktown all game and then I began to doubt myself (my head like... is the bunny evil???), and the PoE that I was left with given Enchant's vig claim left me with not too many possibilities (marci was even more locktown to me, and MathBlade gave me town vibes for not ultimately voting me), and I was uncertain enough about DkKoba from their D2 play.

I'm not sure how good it is I just basically locktowned everyone who townread me, but it worked for me?
DkKoba, why couldn't we just be friends???

[ShadowGirl]

I can see that. That’s why I tried breaking it down in a way to understand.

Everyone should have the mathematical possibility of a fair shot in elo (meaning no conf towns)
Because Koba could confirm themselves by checking the vig or mason if town that means 4 conf towns.

That means scum need fire power or multiple kills to balance which isn’t possible.
So Koba = scum.

Math (numbers) is not my strong suit (understatement), so it was hard for me to decide if it absolutely proved your theory or no. I think if there was a D4 that I would have been able to get to that conclusion of DkKoba as for sure last scum, but just that we were in the same place on D3 with 100% on one person and 50/50 on another, and that I had to go for my 100% who I had been trying to get out for the last two Days. It was sort of wild that we were both do or die on our reads.

no probs. i'm usually scuread pretty wildely, but then i get these games where everyone townreads me and it's always a bit freaky.

I really did think you were sheeping Roden as to get out of responsibility of me flipping town, which is what pinged me hard. And considering for most of D3 you were the only person who had voted NM, I was like... where is the bussing??? So it sort of ended up feeling like a scenario where you/NM possible team thought the NM elimination would be an easy and fast on and then when that didn't happen that you thought you would had a good chance of getting me out instead.

i would even kill shadowgirl b4 roden

Considering this a badge of honour!

hem softed gunsmith check on ShadowGirl

DkKoba, I'm curious what post you thought was a soft on me? And I also wonder why you didn't end up bussing NM on D3?

[ShadowGirl]

I'm also wondering, DkKoba, why you didn't convince me to try and switch my vote to tictac after I had laid out my NM+tictac theory and after I was defending you against MathBlade? (Roden, if that defense is what convinced you on me, that's partially why I did it lol) Or did it just seem like I was never going to change my vote from NM? I mean I guess I will say that I wanted NM gone that day because I didn't have faith that would get resolved the following day, or that the danger of the 50/50 where I get mislimmed and town loses was something I didn't want to gamble on.

[ShadowGirl]

Not in mid/late day, which is when you were voting me, and after that voting MathBlade (who I wouldn't consider for that day). I thought you had the potential to be town but considering you thought I was scum and given how in the past days I wasn't able to convince you of anything, I decided to put my focus on trying to convince others I was town because I thought I had no chance of doing so with you. It's why I even started trying to defend you against MathBlade because I thought you (town possibility) might see me as town (and because it might make Roden see me as town lol). There's definitely a universe where I potentially misvote tictac on D4 based on my theory, if you had hammered NM at the like three quarter mark of the day.