Mini Normal 2205: RotITGBSMoD [game over!]

[InsidiousLemons]

i wouldn't assume the maf!doc is especially powerful. the ability for the informed minority to protect itself is already incredibly potent, so if there are indeed any modifiers it would probably make the most sense to me for it to be an x-shot.

VOTE: Andante because minor disagreements in phrasing = obvscum

[InsidiousLemons]

@andres what is your claim? night 0 cop?

[InsidiousLemons]

277-280 from andante gave me scum vibes at first bc overreaction, but now i feel like it just reads more noob/NAI. hard to tell because no completed games so this is mostly gut. regardless i don't think my vote is best placed on her atm

VOTE: osuka

kinda weird you'd talk about things going over your head? are those missile cruisers that you're playing to bomb us with?

weird filler vote that went completely unchallenged by osuka, followed by whatever the hell that chess/minesweeper nothingness was

VOTE: Haschel Cedricson

he's still on the plane while all the others have already jumped and started skydiving

this is an odd thing to say when he had already posted twice, one of which was a genuinely useful question. if you're going to attack someone for not engaging with the game, why not me? why not

you won't be saying that once i catch us 4 or 5 wolves

lol

no one seems to be pushing anya for posting almost exclusively filler even when there were better things to discuss. weird metaphors and non-pushes and... that seems to be it

VOTE: Anya

[InsidiousLemons]

*why not me, and why not vfp, who had posted even less of substance than haschel? forgot to type my whole post lolol

[InsidiousLemons]

like really do 279 and 280 strike anyone as genuine? asking the room

they look like they could be fake

this looks like it could be fake too

could be but i already did say i was getting the heeby jeebies

yeah that's fair

can you put your finger on anything

it's just weird. she lazily tosses out a scum read, then later says it's too early to scum read. she says she's sus of two people due to responding to salsa's reaction, but doesn't pursue either, and instead goes the OMGUS route. it seems pretty clear she did not like being targeted by Robert, but the question remains is all this nervous energy she has because she's caught scum or because she just doesn't like being targeted?

before the last couple of posts i would have said the latter but jaysus. i wouldn't expect even noobtown to get this scared and desperate this quickly

@andante what about my defense of you makes you so confident i'm not scum? from your perspective, even if you assume you're town, i could still be trying to pocket you. from an outside perspective this just makes you look like my scumbuddy i'm trying to defend

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: osuka

kinda weird you'd talk about things going over your head? are those missile cruisers that you're playing to bomb us with?

weird filler vote that went completely unchallenged by osuka, followed by whatever the hell that chess/minesweeper nothingness was

why would i challenge a vote that is clearly a joke?

it just felt to me like joke votes didn't need to be made anymore. by "not challenging" i meant not voting anya based on her weird minesweeper sidetrack, but i see now that you actually did at the top of page 6. for my next trick i will learn how to read

[InsidiousLemons]

you latched onto her initial "vote my townread" shitpost. it was just surprising to me that you didn't follow up when she posted something else in a similar vein. it's not like there was nothing to comment on, either -- there was a decent conversation going which anya decided not to weigh in on at all and instead post filler

probably also a good time to mention that the last game i played was a micro that i ghosted when i was 14, and even otherwise i'm not confident i ever made it past the first couple days of a game. for all intents and purposes i'm a newbie, so forgive me if i'm not too aware at first of site culture or if i accidentally use the old term for an elim etc (obv i understand the change and will endeavour to refer to it as an elim)

[InsidiousLemons]

^ in response to osuka's 368

[InsidiousLemons]

insidious is pushing me for being weird rather than being wolf

VOTE: Insidious lock him up

i'm pushing you for posting sidebar nonsense as discussion was just beginning to pick up, and i said as much. continuously posting cryptic fluff while people try to decipher what you mean is not pro-town behaviour. I recognize that page 5(?) is early for criticism of fluffposting/distracting from discussion, but your attempt to mischaracterize it as me pushing you for "being weird" is not a good look.

[InsidiousLemons]

I don't see what's good about Roberts entrance or why it's defendable.

if you're referring to his "reads" post, i honestly just read it as a joke. andres is scum for joking about a N0 check? osuka is town for being funny? i'm scum for only posting twice? asteria is town for being "glad to be a part" of the townbloc? these don't feel like serious conclusions to me. i don't think it's a particularly defensible entrance, but it doesn't scream scum to me either.

@robert how serious was your readlist? what do you hope to gain by not voting? also, you're sort of automatically subscribed to any topic you've posted in. you can click "view your posts" in the top left to keep tabs on which threads have new posts (coloured icons instead of greyed-out ones). there's a more specific "subscribe topic" function which i believe gives you emails, that you can find at the bottom left of the page.

[InsidiousLemons]

a great way to work out which reads are accurate is to apply any pressure. at all

[InsidiousLemons]

^@ 404

[InsidiousLemons]

I'm going to focus here tomorrow with some read updates.

PawnsGambit deserves some pressure here.
Out right refusing to discuss reads and now just ignoring posts to them.
Adding nothing and apparently getting away with doing so?

VOTE: PawnsGambit

New player trying to stay close and call their scum buddy Osuka town the whole time, following in the footsteps, or just trying to buddy to a town Osuka thinking this will protect them?
Regardless attention should be here.

Do you know that osuka is town, by any chance? If so, please let us all know, this would be very useful information.

speaking of useful information, please answer my questions in 405. dodging good faith questions about your reads does not make me confident that you're actively invested in finding scum.

I'm not refusing to discuss reads. I'm merely saying that they are light reads at this point in the game and not to be blown out of proportion.

There would have to be something that makes you think "Oh, Osuka is scum hunting". What is it?

[...]

So to re ask my question and make it clear, at what post did you feel Osuka was scum hunting?

I can tell Osuka is trying to sort people by conversing with a wide variety of players. This to me is genuine scum hunting.

pawniard yet again dodging a point-blank question with a one-line post devoid of any substance. i've been reading osuka as town as well, but your inability to point to any concrete reasons or posts that make you believe so beyond "he talks to a lot of people" is very troubling. a majority of your posts are less than half a line long. you're either town who's too lazy to play the game, or scum who's to lazy to pretend to.

VOTE: PawnsGambit

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: PawnsGambit

let's try it

yeah what he said

[InsidiousLemons]

actively scumhunting isn't die-harding, it's playing the game. we are asking you to skim through the thread and point out a tangible example of a post that makes you believe what you believe. you continue to post while ignoring that question. in fact, you've made nearly 3 times as many posts in this thread as i have. so why are they so lacking in content and so full of argumentative nothings?

p-edit nice topic change

[InsidiousLemons]

not asking you to have hard reads, asking you to back up the claims you've already made.

if you'd like to talk about robert as well, go ahead. i'm all ears

p-edit i am actually defending everyone im not voting. i think everyone is town except the person im currently voting, at all times

[InsidiousLemons]

If you're voting me and not voting robert then you're defending robert.

also kind of scummy to miss the daddy on pagetop imo :/

[InsidiousLemons]

have you caught up to page 18 yet? if so i think you have more than enough to go on to at least vote for someone. you must think at least one of the other 12 players in this game is sus enough to at least pressure, no? c'mon, it's not gonna kill anyone

[InsidiousLemons]

not asking you to have hard reads, asking you to back up the claims you've already made.

if you'd like to talk about robert as well, go ahead. i'm all ears

p-edit i am actually defending everyone im not voting. i think everyone is town except the person im currently voting, at all times

This is a pretty stupid approach to mafia.

great point, hadnt thought of that

[InsidiousLemons]

438 in a nutshell:
> pawns claims "immediate backlash" upon suggesting robert's entrance was scummy
> asked to post evidence of people defending robert
> the only example of "immediate backlash" included is savethedragons calling andante sus
> also includes green crayons voting for andante 2 pages later without saying anything about robert as a player
> also includes me pressuring robert, for some reason

???

[InsidiousLemons]

if you're so upset about no robert wagon then why have you never voted robert nor suggested anyone else do it?

[InsidiousLemons]

You know there is likely 3 scum and not 5 right?

what makes you say that

[InsidiousLemons]

Serious question though, why is Osuka trying to control the game?

When I read this, my mind immediately jumped to the possibility of

Andante

-scum being salty about osuka controlling the game. My scum read on this player slot remains unchanged.

I am so entertained by

osuka

's posts that I would resist voting him even if he confessed.

your scumread of andante hinges on osuka being town, but for the second time you fail to provide any backup for why you actually believe the latter to be true. "being funny, generally" is NAI. admitting (jokingly or otherwise) to getting ATE'd and not doing any actual player analysis outside of that is questionable.

Surprise, I'm (cautiously still) moving

Pawn

out of the litter box into the kitten drawer. I see a whole lot of attention-grabbing terrible logic and cornered animal lashing out. His bad pushes get backlash but he doubles down like a townie instead of letting go like a good little scum.

this strikes me as rather flimsy reasoning. he doubles down, sure, but refuses to engage with questions directed at him or back up his reasoning with anything concrete. it reads to me like scum wanting to look confident but scared to overcommit.

Salsabil Faria.

I have formed an opinion on this player slot but it could be the kind of reason that will get me modkilled.

struggling to decipher this

My town read of

VFB

is unchanged.

interesting, considering you never so much as mentioned his name in either post outside of the "kittens" list itself. the initial townread stems from 2 posts of VFP's: a random vote for osuka (one of the first posts in the thread) and a post asking if they were conftown yet. what evidence do you have which suggests to you that VFP is town?

---

Look at the number of scum in the last 10 mini normal 13 player games.

touché. looks like most are 3-scum, a couple had 2 or 4 and none had 5. i still don't see readlist distribution not matching likely actual distribution as much of a problem this early though

[InsidiousLemons]

apologies, i misread the post number on your initial reads list. your TR on VFP came after 15 VFP posts, a much more reasonable number. still, i'm interested to hear your reasons

[InsidiousLemons]

^@Robert re: 455

[InsidiousLemons]

I can tell Osuka is trying to sort people by conversing with a wide variety of players. This to me is genuine scum hunting.

call me pocketed but isn't this a perfectly appropriate response for 413?

it's the complete avoidance of VFP's request for even one specific post that pings for me. the question "at what post did you feel osuka was scumhunting" is answered with yet another general statement, rather than just taking the time to find one of multiple posts of yours (313, 325) which exemplify the strategy he's talking about. it feels intentionally standoffish. you can see more of a similarly hostile/paranoid mentality in 425. so much nervous, agitated energy is present in the posts where he's being pressured and it feels driven by a desire to get people to talk about anyone but himself.

[InsidiousLemons]

daddy

[InsidiousLemons]

whelp. interview went well!! its been a long day lmao had real life stuff to attend to, I'll try to get around to ISOs on all of yall tomorrow morning, there's like 3 more pages from when I was last here. rip

glad to hear the interview went well! looking forward to reading tomorrow's post

[InsidiousLemons]

did insidious just ignore the fact he ever voted me or i voted him and go on to flay pawniard?

nope, i addressed your vote on me in 403. pawns' (continued) hostility and caginess about sharing his opinions/naming names is much more scummy to me than a possible diversion tactic early D1. would still like to know what you thought you were accomplishing, though

i agree with your point in 515 that an "i forgot" seems slightly more likely to come from town in this scenario than scum, but not by a lot. i don't think that alone would be enough for me to base a townread off of.

[InsidiousLemons]

Regarding osuka, I certainly have no reason to think they are scum at the moment, so they are a default town read. It's as simple as that. Like any default read, it is open to be revisited if I hear them squeak. In the meantime, I am enjoying their posts.

it is certainly the case that any given player is statistically more likely to be town than scum, but this is a terrible strategy for developing reads. by giving everyone who blends in a pass until they stand out, you allow scum to play the game exactly how they want to. this also still doesn't explain why your strongest scumread is on andante -- once again, your scumread of them depends upon osuka as town, a presumption for which you have offered precisely zero evidence.

you default to townreading people? what the fuck???

I will not argue against the wisdom of the legal system; it's "innocent until proven guilty" for good reasons.

this is dumb as fuck lol

[InsidiousLemons]

you can't have "grown to like" STD and then say "gut" when asked why. are you people allergic to providing specific post numbers? or even any general explanation of the kind of behaviour that makes you lean town on him?

[InsidiousLemons]

going to try and collect my thoughts and post a full readlist tonight

[InsidiousLemons]

okay, phew. took me several hours but i went through everyone's ISOs and have developed what i feel is a readlist that represents my gut feelings and reasoning well. i reordered these after writing them in slot-order, so forgive me if i reference minor points about other players before they appear in the list. in rough order, from most townest to most scummestest:

Osuka

: the person infamously responsible for over 1/4 of all posts thus far. 184 and 185 are good. i like their response to VFP's analysis of their ISO in 312 and 313. their varied discussions with other players, generally speaking, feel like those of a player who is trying to determine alignment rather than looking to confirm what they already "suspect". see their early-game conversations with andres, discussion with STD from 323 onwards, etc. 461 bothers me a little bit, since without daytalk i don't really see how osuka actually

could

coach pawns like they're talking about.

encrypting multishot mafia doc, anyone?

i could almost see this as veiled anger at pawns -- "do you seriously think i'm that stupid?" could be read as an indirect dig at scumbuddy pawns. does anybody else pick up anything from this or am i getting too WIFOM? going to keep a close eye on this slot to prevent the potential for complacency, but despite minor gut pings, osuka is probably my strongest townread so far.

Andresvmb

: the opening few posts have the energy to me of someone who, rather than being scum looking to pocket town!osuka, is leaving a rather heated and disappointing game and is hoping really hard that this one might be a bit less so. skimming through their last played game, particularly the end of day 4 when osuka was lynched, reveals this to be pretty much the case. i'm going to call their early "pocketing" attempts NAI. imo much of their early-game hostility can likely be attributed to this. i'm a little disquieted by the phrase "let [osuka] stay in the game", for similar reasons as why i disliked andante's reluctance to put pressure on the same player. the wording is not my fav, but it doesn't bother me enough to belabour it. the logic in 180 for their early townread of osuka is ok to me. 187 does bother me, because i don't like self-meta and i especially don't like i-suck-at-scum-here's-my-scumtells self-meta. i like 215 as well, apart from more self-meta. i think this was pointed out by osuka at the time as well. posts like 340 and 342 indicate to me an intent to keep pushing and questioning various players. they don't seem to be as unwilling to converse as Asteria would like to paint them to be. their recent posts have been marked by frustration at getting voted, but my gut tells me it's a genuine reaction to what does feel to me like a pretty stale push at this point. overall i'm okay with andres as town for now.

Save The Dragons

: slight town read, but not a ton to go off. there is a confidence and an ease in his posts that makes me feel okay about him, though i imagine that confidence and ease is also sort of part and parcel with nearly 17 years on this site. 354 and 356 are good posts. so is 530. their push on pawns felt measured and, as with osuke, like it comes from the position of someone trying to gather information that is generally helpful to the town rather than specifically helpful to their case. i enjoy playing with people who answer questions directly and succinctly, so i may be somewhat biased. sue me.

Green Crayons

: again, few posts to go on, but the ones that are there feel okay to me. this is one of my more gut-based reads but crayons leans very slightly town for me. still, much of their ISO reads as posting to post, such as the comment in 396. i would like if they posted more because they make decent observations in posts like 347. i get the sense that this player has more to contribute than they are offering up.

Anya

: hard to say, but slight townlean. i don't hate anya's omgus vote on me as much as others seem to. i feel like scum finds a proper counterattack whereas that post (387) feels more like yawning townie confidence than scum backlash. i don't agree with the townread in 510 but the logic is honestly acceptable to me. much gut involved here but anya is actually looking a bit more town as the game goes on. i don't dislike her most recent posts.

Andante

: upon rereading, 88 kinda pings weirdly for me. why is she so concerned about putting a 4th vote on osuka less than 100 posts into the game? "I kinda like them here" -- already? why? not like you're going to take them out that early anyway. i keep changing my mind on how her piss-poor reaction to robert's accusations reads, but i think i'm going to stick with my initial noobtown analysis until we see some more interaction between these players. 359 also sucks. 388, though, feels like genuine noobtown wordvomit from someone who is nervous and doesn't understand the game very well yet. i say this because it's painfully similar to how i played my first couple of town games here. the suggestion that scum might try to pocket one of their own buddies is a confusing one to me, but again (call me crazy), reads more like noobtown thinking out loud and smashing the submit button than scum floundering. there's no question they respond terribly to being pressured, though. i'm eager to see how they reenter this thread. slight gut townlean, but i'm not opposed to the idea that this slot could be filthy scum. still not the best D1 elim to me

Haschel Cedricson

: only 10 posts to go on, which even of itself makes me a bit apprehensive. i'm always wary of people who have a desire to sit back and watch. something about asking osuka to "dial it down" in 222 also rubs me the wrong way, though while i disagree with their assessment of 180, i don't think their reasoning is particularly flawed. to this point the posts osuka had been making were pretty good imo. posting a lot is only bad if it's with an aim to steer the conversation away from certain topics, and osuka didn't seem to be doing that. moreover, if you're going to ask that someone leave room for others to speak, maybe start by filling that space with contributions of your own. as someone else mentioned, haschel's posts only really seem to contain idle questions and, occasionally, a weak followup. still null for now.

Salsabil Faria

: no game-related posts since their blowup, which to me feels ever-so-slightly more likely to have come from town than scum. can't really put my finger on why, but i would kind of think scum makes an appeal to others about osuka's impoliteness here rather than going for the throat. until they come back from v/la, this slot stays null.

Asteria

: very little of note until 395. i feel really off for some reason about their response to robert's entrance in that post -- i could see their lack of activity up to this point as scum feeling demoralized that their buddy let their role pm expire. i am likely reading too much into this but it does give me pause. defending robert in 552, which didn't concern asteria at all, after the person to whom the question was addressed had already responded pretty much the same thing, is bad. basing townreads off of shared readlists, based on the assumption that this at all indicates a shared "town mindset", is bad. asteria's only real activity so far has been a lacklustre readlist and endless pressing of the same early-game point on andres, which he's already responded to. whether they're satisfied with that response or not, there are more important things to be focusing energy on right now, and you don't have to push one player to the exclusion of talking about almost anything else. despite all this, i have to admit that on a gut level, their crusade against andres feels more like town tunnel vision than anything else. slight scumlean

Robert M Hunter

: first read list in 276 was just... weird. robert later stands by this as a 100% honest post, which makes very little sense to me.

* osuka is too funny to be town
* haschel is scum for an rvs vote
* asteria is town for responding to a joke on page 2
* pawns is scum for [links to pawns' profile]

...the list goes on. it just doesn't make any sense, and all of the reads i directly called out as nonsensical before were never explained or backed up. 351 is a flimsy and unsolicited defense of VFP. as crayons mentions in 399, you can't choose who suspects you. the answer to "why latch onto osuka" is as simple as "osuka was the one pressing them". this is not a difficult leap of logic to make. the 449 readlist is better than the first, but it still presents quite a number of issues. i outline most of my problems with it in 455. the whole "talking about salsa could get me modkilled" still makes approximately zero sense to me. if you're not going to elaborate, why even say anything?

are you people allergic to providing specific post numbers? or even any general explanation of the kind of behaviour that makes you lean town on him?

I did provide post numbers in earlier posts, so no I am not allergic.

when? unless i'm missing something, your piss-poor page-12 readlist is the last time i saw you link or directly reference the number of another post to justify a read on anyone.

VFP

: 234 and 239 are terrible. if you truly have spent years on this site as you say in 245 then you have got to know why you don't post shit like "i'm going to coast until someone tells me who to vote for." i agree with whoever said (save the dragons, maybe?) that scum probably finds something to pin on osuka in 275, but a lack of ability to come up with something halfway convincing in that department is not particularly AI to me either. the bad sorting of posts that are not filler into filler categories is also indicative to me of shallow reading of osuka's ISO and quick post composition. on the whole 275 is not a good post. posts like 297, 302 aren't bad, but don't feel especially convincing to me. i actually don't hate 341, but their continued insistence that so many of osuka's worthwhile posts constitute filler does make me wonder whether they're just not bothering to read into them or if it's something more. scum just hoping people take their claims at face value? it's strange that after going after osuka for so long, in 408 they pivot to the assumption that osuka is town in order to further their push on pawns. VFP changing their mind after writing out their thoughts on osuka, or scum attacking whoever seems easy to target? this question is made thornier by the fact that it's giving me trouble to try and reconcile VFP and pawns as the same alignment, despite the fact that individually they're both looking fairly scummy to me right now.

PawnsGambit

: i've mostly outlined my reasons for this scumread, but to sum up: most of this player's game has consisted of gadfly-ish questions with little of substance to follow them up, and either answering questions directed at them with questions of their own or else outright ignoring them. the flip from this:

If you're voting me and not voting robert then you're defending robert.

to this:

i am actually defending everyone im not voting. i think everyone is town except the person im currently voting, at all times

This is a pretty stupid approach to mafia.

--feels like an acknowledgement that their argument in 425 doesn't hold water. they're smarter than that, and they know it, so they don't attempt to back up what is transparently one of numerous failed attempts at changing the topic to robert. scum as a plum

---

also:

@VFP, you never elaborated on this:

Anya strikes me as an easy player to read as the day goes on.

what makes you say so?

[InsidiousLemons]

alright holy fuck im going to bed, i will read what was posted in the past page or two tomorrow

[InsidiousLemons]

woah are you trying to get killed night 1 insidious

We can just ask the mafia doctor to save insidious!!! duh! lmao (but for real, maf, we value insidious, and it would be greatly appreciated if you kept him around! Thank you)

this game is going to make me lose my mind. the longer i stare at this post the more i begin to think it's one of the most telling things andante has posted this whole game. what actual reason does town have to post this?

[InsidiousLemons]

woah are you trying to get killed night 1 insidious

hey, if i'm fish food tonight at least you'll know i wasn't far off the mark.

[InsidiousLemons]

osuka, please explain 461. if you were scum, how could you be coaching pawnsgambit right now, during D1? if i'm missing something obvious, tear me to shreds over it. but i want to know why you said what you said

[InsidiousLemons]

hello who the fuck are u

[InsidiousLemons]

@mod did i miss a "nopoweroverme replaces haschel cedricson" ?

[InsidiousLemons]

ok weird. just came into the thread and saw the unedited post briefly, hit reply and it was gone. gonna write some responses, hang tight.

in b4 i get modkilled

[InsidiousLemons]

^some responses to the posts from players who are actually in this game, ofc

p-edit hm.

[InsidiousLemons]

woah are you trying to get killed night 1 insidious

We can just ask the mafia doctor to save insidious!!! duh! lmao (but for real, maf, we value insidious, and it would be greatly appreciated if you kept him around! Thank you)

this game is going to make me lose my mind. the longer i stare at this post the more i begin to think it's one of the most telling things andante has posted this whole game. what actual reason does town have to post this?

Also what reason does mafia have to post this though

i was talking about the bit in parentheses -- it's clearly meant to be taken more seriously than the rest of the post ("but for real"). talking to Mafia, Generally, Wherever You May Be in this way pings like noobscum. town has no reason to ask scum not to kill someone they like, it's just one more reason for scum to kill them

woah are you trying to get killed night 1 insidious

We can just ask the mafia doctor to save insidious!!! duh! lmao (but for real, maf, we value insidious, and it would be greatly appreciated if you kept him around! Thank you)

this game is going to make me lose my mind. the longer i stare at this post the more i begin to think it's one of the most telling things andante has posted this whole game. what actual reason does town have to post this?

you don't like my lines? wooow I was just joking with Anya? Are you trying to say I can't have a little fun? that's suspicious... that's weird...

if you were joking the whole time then why separate the post into two parts? why say "but for real?"

so I have determined. there's not a scum read I'm super confident in at this point in time.
Also, I love the game advancing content rule, it annoys me when people just go "hi I'm here" and that counts

I think it was crayons or dragon I was feeling was weird, idk. I don't even remember what I told yall last night, should probably start there I know I said Asteria felt off, ahhhh if someone has a confident sr, please out it

not remembering what you told us <24 hours ago --> low familiarity with your own (fabricated?) opinions --> scumtell
"please talk loudly about your scumreads so i can wagon them" --> scumtell

Andante – Town
Anya - Town
Andresvmb - Town
InsidiousLemons - Town
Save The Dragons - Sus
Green Crayons - Town
Asteria – Sus
PawnsGambit – leaning town
VFP –
Haschel Cedricson –
Salsabil Faria –
Osuka –
Robert M Hunter -


Ok, I collected my thoughts from yesterday for yall, and I realized, I haven't outed a read on osuka, then that had me thinking, how do I read osuka? they certainly have lots of content here, always posting. I skimmed through some lines of theirs, and at this time, I honestly don't know how I read them, like, I could see a town and a scum argument, so for them, I'll wait till later to sort. Haschel said he was posting after work, never did, but I was the same with yesterday morning, so, I'd love to see more content there. VFP? idk. I think I saw maybe 1 VFP post, they've just been flying under the radar tbh. Salsa. if I'm being completely honest, I'd probably call scum, solely based on their anger reaction to osuka. They got mad, and left, but, 3they've been v/la or whatever so I'd love to hear actual content from them, cause their lines before leaving were far from great. And lastly, Robert. I really don't know. like, robert will jump in with weird lines, their entrance to the game was also far from great, but like, I could see them coming from a town mindset. yeah. that's where my brain is at

this whole paragraph is almost purely iioa. also strange to me that you only back up your null reads and don't mention your, you know, actual reads. if you only saw "maybe 1" vfp post, you need to go back and read the goddamn game. null because i don't care enough to read their posts isn't a read. you've complained about ISOing as if it's something you're never actually going to do, and moaned and grumbled about going back to find a specific post to back up your arguments early in the game. you shouldn't be upset by people asking you to do this, it is literally how to play forum mafia. you can't win without ever looking at ISO, without ever going back and rereading.

@andres what is your claim? night 0 cop?

Lemons, I could do the same right back at you, what reason does town have to post this? What if Andres took it as you were actually asking them to claim? no reason for town to care about claims 30 posts into the game

for someone so concerned about not letting people have fun, you're pretty pressed about this second-page post. i guess i could have made it more obviously joking in tone, but andres would have to be actually braindead to claim in response to this post. we were in rvs. chill

i don’t think that was the case a number of years ago but i do distinctly recall a point where it felt like i woke up and suddenly daytalk just seemed to be the norm

i'm content with this for now given gc's backup and the fact that i haven't been on the site in a few years.

I'm not going to write the ***** word....

Spoiler:

post of the game

[InsidiousLemons]

YES I ROLLED SCUM MWAHAHAHAHAH PREPARE TO DIE

[InsidiousLemons]

i'm okay with salsa's return thus far. they can be town for now but would like to see them engage in up-to-date discussion. at the same time,

@salsa don't push yourself, didn't realize your v/la was for health reasons. hope everything is going well irl

[InsidiousLemons]

my gut may be actually broken because despite everything it still wants andante to be noobtown. i don't care. if we are going to win this thing you need to actually play the game in a way that benefits town.

VOTE: Andante

[InsidiousLemons]

Insidious will you be my Saruman?

Betray your allies.

Join the Darkness.

can you post something other than flavourtext please and thanks

[InsidiousLemons]

everything he says is like a matter of fact... no emotion...

and this is supposed to make me scum?

[InsidiousLemons]

my gut may be actually broken because despite everything it still wants andante to be noobtown. i don't care. if we are going to win this thing you need to actually play the game in a way that benefits town.

VOTE: Andante

I think you'd tr me if you stopped looking at me through a conf scum pov.. just saying

i've literally been townreading you on gut this entire game. i have given you the benefit of the doubt at every turn. i think i'd tr you if you gave me a reason to believe you want us to win this game

[InsidiousLemons]

Like, do people want me to claim? cause we're not voting me out, I'm important. I'm the doctor the red one

no no don't

haha I won't actually claim!!! dw. I'll get voted out before I do claim

just don't say anything else about your role

give it time people will realise you're town if you are (which i think you are right now) wagons don't last forever

cause if I'm voted out, yall clearly don't want me. whelp. I want the votes off me when I'm back, thanks. if they're not, idk, I'm down for a salsa or lemons elim tbh, wait whoever I was voting last night is also a good one, they also had bad lines

[InsidiousLemons]

andante do you really intend to just nope out of this thread until the pressure is off you?

[InsidiousLemons]

my gut may be actually broken because despite everything it still wants andante to be noobtown. i don't care. if we are going to win this thing you need to actually play the game in a way that benefits town.

VOTE: Andante

I think you'd tr me if you stopped looking at me through a conf scum pov.. just saying

i've literally been townreading you on gut this entire game. i have given you the benefit of the doubt at every turn. i think i'd tr you if you gave me a reason to believe you want us to win this game

mhm... cause that reason has been "oh andante noob!!! noob town!!" I've had some great lines, which apparently you didn't care for. I don't care. I'm taking a break

i can tell that you do not have very much experience with or knowledge of (at least the forum version of) this game. i don't mean this as an insult, but it is blatantly true. experienced players are not so easily overcome by emotions. experienced players do not call me conftown, then decide they'd be fine with me being the elim a couple pages later because i put some pressure on them. experienced players do not complain about other people using too much logic and too little emotion. the list goes on.

i am torn between these reactions being the result of town frustrated that no one else can tell they're town (sort of what greencrayons was talking about in the "thinking the thread revolves around them could be town ai" post), or the result of scum frustrated that they aren't having much of an effect on the game and scared that they're going to eat rope. in either case, the way you are currently playing is not conducive to helping town win this game.

if you'd like to link me to specific lines of yours that you think were "great", i'm happy to read through them. who knows, maybe i'm sleeping on some real insight.

if you're town, you need to take a step back, stop taking criticism of your posts as personal attacks, and really dial in and try to read through this game objectively to develop some proper, fleshed-out reads.

if you're scum, well... eat rope.

[InsidiousLemons]

@mod why are there so many jesters in this setup

[InsidiousLemons]

I hate pressure, I break under it too, take it more as a joke as scum

can you expand on this? how do you think your reaction to pressure differs as scum?

[InsidiousLemons]

I hate pressure, I break under it too, take it more as a joke as scum

can you expand on this? how do you think your reaction to pressure differs as scum?

uhhh not really, too hard to explain, I'm gonna go play in the snow (we have a snow storm right now) and when I'm back I'm ISOing Haschel, and if he's been here for 5 days with no content, I'm voting him, would rather keep people who try.

I always have the time of my life

VOTE: Lemons

we kill Gandalf today

join me forces of evil

@mod why are there so many jesters in this setup

[InsidiousLemons]

so I have determined. there's not a scum read I'm super confident in at this point in time.

[...]

I think it was crayons or dragon I was feeling was weird, idk. I don't even remember what I told yall last night, should probably start there

this andante is very unsure of any reads at all.

Save The Dragons - Sus

then they "collect their thoughts" and decide dragons is sus, without providing any reasoning. when prompted, they have this to say:

@Dragon, I'll elaborate on you,
It's lines like these, they have no content to them... your cat thing feels so weird, and like "you're putting more effort crucifying robert than pushing your vote" for context this came immediately after you voted me. None of your lines feel like you're trying to find scum.

do you just hate cats?

you're putting more effort crucifying robert than pushing your vote

so i'm wondering if you're just allergic to cats or something i dunno

These VFP lines, you're implying VFP is your TR, and you don't understand why someone SRs them. Why not give why you think VFP is town? engage in a conversation about it, give the side you see, compare notes, etc. Like, reading your ISO, most lines are just responding to osuka, or lines like this, that seem to be going in no direction. You throw out questions like this, never return to them to follow up!!! It literally feels like maf to me, reading more into you here, I'd move you from sus to scum tbh. Town that's trying to find scum would ask relevant questions, then return to them, if you out a tr/sr, doesn't it make sense to talk to someone who's outing an opposite read from you?? idk, it feels like you're trying to go no where with all your posts.

why exactly did you think VFP was scummy again?

do you have anything else on VFP?

to be fair, pawns wasn't giving dragons much to go off of. the conversation, of which here you provide only one side, feels more to me like save the dragons attempting to have the type of conversation you're talking about and getting very little in return. don't get me wrong, certainly not the most insightful posts in std's iso, but i don't find anything here that really merits a scumread on its own.

they continue:

looking at #354 (idk if this link works.... testing..)
looking at #354, osuka is like "what's your thought on this" and you pretty much go "idk, I tr you" like, changing the topic, your lines feel really weird to me, and I'm not entirely sure why you feel so off...

this is the post in question:

what's your take on vfp's push?

I honestly haven't given it too much thought because i'm reading you as town.

I don't quite buy that being toxic makes you scum, but i have seen scum use toxicity to their ends, so i'm not sure if i agree but i don't mind the headspace they're in. 275 is a little weird because all they seem to do is say you post NAI and positive things in their PBPA. I feel like scum in that situation finds something to pin on you instead of just kind of throwing their hands up. I mean they repeat the point about toxicity being scummy but...eh?

plus i use my gut a lot and it's pinging for some people and not really for VFP at the moment.

there are 2 parts to this post -- "here's why i haven't given it much thought yet" and "here's the take itself". andante mischaracterizes this post as consisting solely of the answer to the first question ("because i'm reading osuke as town"), and ignores the meat of std's response. this post isn't changing the topic, it's responding directly to the question. of all the posts you could have quoted, why choose one where std actually brings up some pretty okay points? did you even read the whole post?

sidenote: funny enough, andante actually linked to the 354th post in the site's history, not the 354th post in this thread. i'm not sure, but i think the # is what broke it. to actually link a post from this thread by number, do this:

Code: Select all

[post]354[/post]

anyway.

taken all together, this sequence of andante's read developing on dragons looks more like them fixating on the idea of dragons being scum and cherry-picking posts that they feel support that idea (though again, the examples cited don't even really feel to me like they do that) rather than a genuine attempt to determine alignment.

what gives me pause, though, is the fact that despite all this tunneling, andante

has never even voted for save the dragons

. why do all that work if they aren't even going to push? it makes me feel like all this really could just be sloppy play blinded by emotions and genuine logical fallacy. this is what's driving me so insane. a townie who can't help but play like this is almost as useless as actual scum, but there's a small part of me that can't help feeling like there could be a player with pro-town motivations and the ability to work towards that objective lurking underneath all this (sorry) lazy and terrible play. andante,

this is why i keep pressuring you

. and if you keep avoiding it, you're only going to make me doubt that small part of me even more than i already do.

my question, then, is this: is there

anything

in the ~150 posts between 664 and 821 that has made you genuinely suspicious of dragons?

what is it that makes you "pretty certain" dragons is scum?

[InsidiousLemons]

haha I won't actually claim!!! dw. I'll get voted out before I do claim

one last point, reading back -- is this a scum slip? "i'll get voted out before i claim" implies andante wouldn't claim until they are actually eliminated. is there ever town motivation for withholding a claim until the hammer is dropped? on second reading this could almost feel like reassurance to a scumpartner, but i don't feel comfortable calling anya scum yet. still, this association is definitely worth revisiting if one of them flips.

[InsidiousLemons]

haha I won't actually claim!!! dw. I'll get voted out before I do claim

one last point, reading back -- is this a scum slip? "i'll get voted out before i claim" implies andante wouldn't claim until they are actually eliminated. is there ever town motivation for withholding a claim until the hammer is dropped? on second reading this could almost feel like reassurance to a scumpartner, but i don't feel comfortable calling anya scum yet. still, this association is definitely worth revisiting if one of them flips.

i think you're giving the slot way too much credit

what do you mean? i am trying to give them as much leeway as possible in the first post because i've been guilty in the past of the assumption that bad play necessarily = scum. however, i don't really think you have to give them much credit at all to see 749 as a scumslip. it might be a stretch, but it's a stretch based on them being exceptionally careless rather than exceptionally clever.

[InsidiousLemons]

Robert's vote just looks like distancing to me.

agreed. and there are reasons to read andante as plausibly town, but the posts he cites aren't examples of the ones i see

[InsidiousLemons]

krzzt bzzt

[InsidiousLemons]

anya do you feel your vote is best on asteria right now

[InsidiousLemons]

hi folks. didn't expect this weekend to be so busy for me. catching up now, will post as i read

@mod i will be v/la for most of tomorrow and again on Wednesday the 21st. if everything goes as planned i probably won't even be away that long, but i'd rather not get a second prod if i'm wrong lol

[InsidiousLemons]

Andante, i'm curious how 823 makes you feel

seconded. to my knowledge they still haven't responded to this post. their repeated refusal to read and confidence that they won't be voted out for it does feel more like town to me though, based on gut. not sure how common this type of play is from either alignment, but it's ballsy

[InsidiousLemons]

holy shit i got some crab dip and fries and this is reALLY good

this does not come from scum

[InsidiousLemons]

ehhh yolo I'm kinda claiming, and it's as much of a claim as people are going to get from me, I have votes on me, and it looks like no one actually thinks I'm town.


I. Am. Not. A. Vanilla. Townie.


That's all I'll give, but based on how in and out I am, I'll just leave it at this. As I said before, it doesn't matter what I claim, or if I claim. if after that giant speech I gave, Dragon, you fail to even consider for a second I'm town putting forth that much effort... I can't help yall. Dragon literally has to be scum, I feel like town would have considered an Andante town world, ESPECIALLY when your entire argument rides on the fact I'm a "noob"

scummy post. trying to milk "that giant speech" for town points, misrepping dragons' thought process as "must be a noob" when he's clearly stated he's giving you credit for chat experience, etc. once again you are either misrepresenting other people's arguments or just straight up not reading the thread. this sucks

[InsidiousLemons]

918 is decent analysis that feels like it could come from a town mindset. that being said--

if after that giant speech I gave, Dragon, you fail to even consider for a second I'm town putting forth that much effort...

long posts do not automatically make someone town.

you can do better than this.

[InsidiousLemons]

Why do you have this feeling

Who is hiding behind humor

Why is humor AI here

Because everyone in the game seems to be allowing it to happen.
If you set a line where jokes or sarcasm can easy be used as a deflection then it will be abused.

Normally having a player or 2 with this attitude doesn't mean much but considering how half the players are reacting to making reads / confirming reads / or generally posting, I think that scum will be taking advantage of this.

This isn't how games are normally and says a lot since I'm not overly a serious player standardly.

I'm surprised you are asking who is posting 'humour in this game. Are you just looking for particular comments to try and pull up rather than reading the game?

i don't mind this post. good response and good counter-pressure, plus good followups to what feel like disappointing and deflective responses from green crayons in 943, 945

[InsidiousLemons]

ehhh yolo I'm kinda claiming, and it's as much of a claim as people are going to get from me, I have votes on me, and it looks like no one actually thinks I'm town.


I. Am. Not. A. Vanilla. Townie.


That's all I'll give, but based on how in and out I am, I'll just leave it at this. As I said before, it doesn't matter what I claim, or if I claim. if after that giant speech I gave, Dragon, you fail to even consider for a second I'm town putting forth that much effort... I can't help yall. Dragon literally has to be scum, I feel like town would have considered an Andante town world, ESPECIALLY when your entire argument rides on the fact I'm a "noob"

scummy post. trying to milk "that giant speech" for town points, misrepping dragons' thought process as "must be a noob" when he's clearly stated he's giving you credit for chat experience, etc. once again you are either misrepresenting other people's arguments or just straight up not reading the thread. this sucks

forgot to mention the most important part of this post which was the claim

i agree with whoever said this doesn't really feel like a good strategy from scum, but not sure andante really would have interfaced with partners before doing it considering how emotionally-driven many of their decisions have been up to this point. 910 is clear AtE, and the soft-unclaim makes a lot less sense after stating outright that you have information. if you do have info from N0, you must have submitted your night action real quick to get it in before most players confirmed. isn't it usual for games with N0 roles to have... a N0?

[InsidiousLemons]

I crumbed my role in my first post.

Crumbing isn't really viable in my opinion if you claim it the same day you crumbed. Crumbing is for the long term. Anyone can crumb something in their first post and then use that the second there's a decent wagon on them

agree with this point

[InsidiousLemons]

[tweet][/tweet]

I asked for you to point out who is hiding behind humor, which was your theory about scum using humor here, not “who is posting humor” which is a dumb thing to ask bc as we all know nobody is funny on ms

Well if I knew as simple as who I would just be saying X and or Y are scum for hiding behind humour.
The fact so many players are going this route, it just means scum are getting away with it.

To clarify, I think scum are getting away with avoiding answering questions or giving realistic reads / reasons. I'm not set on who but Robert's original read list and some responses I have seen from them are a good start.
And there's more than 3 people playing like this, so it means that town are doing the same thing.

so i guess to get to the heart of this

you think that bc some not insignificant amount of the player base is trying to be funny

scum must be using humor as a weapon of blending in

but you don't have specific posts that are pinging you as scum potentially using humor as camo (well except robert but BUT things have changed maybe there)

this is just a theory about maybe what scum might want to do

.......

i think this is a bad theory but maybe town indicative

this feels more like the response i expected initially. i don't think scum!crayons gives vfp this much credit at the end, i think they stay on the attack

[InsidiousLemons]

I crumbed my role in my first post.

Crumbing isn't really viable in my opinion if you claim it the same day you crumbed. Crumbing is for the long term. Anyone can crumb something in their first post and then use that the second there's a decent wagon on them

agree with this point

I feel like this also supports him being a mafia tracker, cause lets face it, if he's with town, we're in trouble, lots of trouble. But I read through his posts and I really do not feel like he's towny

i kind of doubt there are 2 maf PRs, and i don't really follow the reasoning that crumbing the town version of your real PR gives any more credibility to the claim than just crumbing any ol' town PR

Wait, quick question, do we for sure know 3 maf? or is it 2? unknown? what? this will mess with what I know (I'm not trying to dumbtell, serious question!!) I read and read, but yeah I'm assuming 3 cause 13

unknown but yes 3 is the most common for a 13 player game by a fair margin

[InsidiousLemons]

I just don't think it's smart to eliminate a claimed tracker D1. And I also think his scum partners would've 1) helped with a better crumb, and 2) told him not to claim at E-2 or whatever it was

I am telling you right now, if there is 3 maf, he is not a town tracker

what's the logic here?

[InsidiousLemons]

my gut may be actually broken because despite everything it still wants andante to be noobtown. i don't care. if we are going to win this thing you need to actually play the game in a way that benefits town.

VOTE: Andante

I mean she is a pretty easy push, we should focus on others. What do you think about

PookyTheMagicalBear

?

everything i've read so far has seemed pretty null. they are making random reads but not giving reasons, though other players have said this is pretty run of the mill for him. i will fully admit i haven't taken a look at his meta, but nothing is pinging me as particularly AI. i'd just like him to catch up and start posting real stuff

VOTE: Salsabil

I'm just gonna put this down for now.

I really don't care for a summary of the game up till now (idk if anyone else does) I would prefer like a reads list, names and alignments, then just ellaborate why.... like, being completely honest, you feel like panicked scum entering here, and if you're town, sorry, I'm just saying it as it. like, there's no way you genuinely SR "the conversation between PawnsGambit and Anya on page 6 " I literally laughed at it... people having a good time...

what's up with all the "no fun allowed!!!" this game lmao

i like the way salsa came back after quitting from frustration earlier to force herself to effort

Ummm.... I was sick

ah crap. I have 4 votes on me... I kinda hate this.... I'm just gonna dissapear for a bit and hope the votes get off me

This is interesting...... I never saw any noob-town said it before. "

I'm just gonna dissapear for a bit and hope the votes get off me

" : scum(s) actually do that, it's one of the regular moves.

cause if I'm voted out, yall clearly don't want me. whelp. I want the votes off me when I'm back, thanks. if they're not, idk, I'm down for a salsa or lemons elim tbh, wait whoever I was voting last night is also a good one, they also had bad lines

Gross!

[/quote]

i'm reading this as towny pr confidence now that andante has claimed. we'll see if their claim has any merit soon enough i guess, but i'm leaning away from them as a D1 elim option

[InsidiousLemons]

well i messed that formatting right up. should still be pretty readable

[InsidiousLemons]

haha I won't actually claim!!! dw. I'll get voted out before I do claim

one last point, reading back -- is this a scum slip? "i'll get voted out before i claim" implies andante wouldn't claim until they are actually eliminated. is there ever town motivation for withholding a claim until the hammer is dropped? on second reading this could almost feel like reassurance to a scumpartner, but i don't feel comfortable calling anya scum yet. still, this association is definitely worth revisiting if one of them flips.

Do you townread

Anya

? If so, why?

i've had her as a slight townread for a while now, but several hundred posts have gone by now with nothing of substance from her. this much active lurking is never town indicative

[InsidiousLemons]

@everyone pooky d1 town should at least be doing something, do you see him actually participating or is he hiding behind his meta to do absolutely nothing here? ask your self what his case is on me.

@robert if andante didn't crumb a power role are you still suspicious of me because I didn't take it as a crumb at all

@andante if robert were scum he'd know about the mafia doctor so the fact he doesn't plus his PR claim is enough to put him in the town column for now. could be faking it but it seems genuine.

@T3 what do you think about any other slot in the game. It looks to me you came in conclusion first and are now trying to justify it.

@Green Crayons i have no idea what the heck T3 is talking about so i don't know how to respond. i don't think i've "invalidated everyone else" nor am I specifically suspicious of osaka's self vote on its own.

these are good points. i took people backing up pooky being pooky here at face value and in hindsight may have given him too much credit for catching up. his baseless push on you does feel weird and the longer he goes demanding votes on you and nothing else the less patience i have. still catching up though

[InsidiousLemons]

@andante you may be falling too deeply into basing reads off of setup spec here. wanna just fullclaim so we can know what makes you so confident there's a traitor and based on what "info"?

[InsidiousLemons]

It's comments like that. I don't believe that you actually believe to be the sole player in this game looking for scum.
What happens if Robert flips TPR here?

^ andante have you responded to this yet

[InsidiousLemons]

Wait a second.... is lemons your partner?? gg gottem

have you posted an actual case against me yet

[InsidiousLemons]

do I have to write out like a thought process and everything

oh this is why u think he's traitor lol

[InsidiousLemons]

what do you mean i'm not fighting my wagon? i'm voting for who i think is scum and most people are still like "oh that's just pooky" ignoring the fact he has yet to do anything this entire game. people are also ignoring T3 has done nothing yet but just jump on my wagon and post nothing but STD bashing posts.

isn't it weird that both replacements haven't bothered to read the thread and instead have just decided i'm scum without much reasoning attached?

this typically reads like scum but this time around im somewhat inclined to agree, even in light of an extremely off-putting 1023

what makes you like this post more than you usually would?

[InsidiousLemons]

caught up.

VOTE: Pooky

i believe this is L-2

[InsidiousLemons]

holy shit i got some crab dip and fries and this is reALLY good

this does not come from scum

what's your take on crab dip + fries

that shit makes my mouth go pop-pop-pop-PING

[InsidiousLemons]

for the record since no one asked: i'm certain that pawns' replacement is due to that one random post being him accidentally outing his main and dropping the game because of it. therefore not AI

[InsidiousLemons]

do I have to write out like a thought process and everything

oh this is why u think he's traitor lol

lmao i hope not because 2 scum 1 traitor in a 13p game with probably at least 2 town PRs is an extremely fiery take

unless andante is like ungated vig or dayvig that sounds like an absurd setup to me

this post wasn't "oh i understand and agree" it was "oh lol that really is your only evidence"

[InsidiousLemons]

Lemons never told me to not claim.... that's suspicious.... that's weird....

ur claim seemed like the only way we were gonna figure this mess out. seems we are at least a little closer now. you do have to let go of this traitor idea though

[InsidiousLemons]

n two other quick points

-roleclaiming this messily after like 5 pages of softclaiming and floundering and confusion makes it pretty much unthinkable to me that andante is being anything but genuine here. my shaky but incredibly persistent gut townread had some merit to it all along dadgummit
-cop, mafia, vig, gunsmith, etc. all have guns. given the wide range of roles that can possess guns, i don't think focusing too hard on the total number before anyone at all has flipped is going to grant us any useful setup information. i still don't truly understand why you're so convinced a traitor must be in here. again, trackers do NOT have guns, so it doesn't tell us anything about the veracity of robert's claim. why didn't you bother to verify that before going down this road?

[InsidiousLemons]

I'm really thinking we don't get pooky here... like, we need to hunt for a scum that does stuff, like I'm serious, at best I think pooky could be traitor... if we have a roleblocker, I'd love to find them today

like, let's say he is a traitor. he's a member of the mafia either way, what benefit is there to trying to find someone "better"? the end result is still one less elim between us and victory.

[InsidiousLemons]

ooooookay hi guys

[InsidiousLemons]

gonna skim the thread but wtf @ 1752

[InsidiousLemons]

@osuka can you explain why you're confident in 1398 that pooky vs std is either tvs or svs?

[InsidiousLemons]

1453 is a bit weird. "I could have [...] let you all eat each other as you were doing anyway" is a strange line from someone who isn't supposed to know who's town and who's scum

[InsidiousLemons]

GC is only at 5 votes and you're one of them.

eh?

[InsidiousLemons]

@salsa, oh I'm pretty sure dragons is flipping town, but there was a big wagon on him so I wanted to see, like if anyone would quick vote STD while I had STD at E-1, and in the process VFP tried to create as much distance from STD as he could... but yeah, STD's slot is just complicated, I'm like too sure he's flipping town, it's great

Yeah, I'm suspicious about

VFP

too atm. Want to wagon him?

VOTE: VFP

as i said i dont think vfp is the kill for d1 but i'm definitely willing to listen

vfp really doesn't feel like a terrible choice. they have a scum read on greencrayons for, as far as i can tell, merely disagreeing with them re: humour being a problem. they distanced themself from the STD wagon for very shoddy reasons in 1577 as soon as people started talking about the likelihood of scum being on it, and have been doing a whole lot of nothing for... pages and pages now.

[InsidiousLemons]

AND if he's town, why does "I could have let you all eat each other as you were doing anyway" sound weird? the motivation behind that surely wouldn't be town, but that's far from being a scum slip

it just felt like a strange way to say that. "you all" is clearly in reference to the players arguing, but not all of them are players andres is reading as town afaik. it's a strange grouping

[InsidiousLemons]

though 1774 is a laughable response and does nothing to convince me robert is town

[InsidiousLemons]

@salsa, oh I'm pretty sure dragons is flipping town, but there was a big wagon on him so I wanted to see, like if anyone would quick vote STD while I had STD at E-1, and in the process VFP tried to create as much distance from STD as he could... but yeah, STD's slot is just complicated, I'm like too sure he's flipping town, it's great

Yeah, I'm suspicious about

VFP

too atm. Want to wagon him?

VOTE: VFP

as i said i dont think vfp is the kill for d1 but i'm definitely willing to listen

vfp really doesn't feel like a terrible choice. they have a scum read on greencrayons for, as far as i can tell, merely disagreeing with them re: humour being a problem. they distanced themself from the STD wagon for very shoddy reasons in 1577 as soon as people started talking about the likelihood of scum being on it, and have been doing a whole lot of nothing for... pages and pages now.

okay, i'm with you with the std wagon distancing attempt looking funny. why is vfp doing nothing a problem _now_, when most of that slot's posts have been devoid of meaning for the whole game?

i called this out as early as 353, and again in 605. i allowed them to fly under the radar for a while because i felt there were better pushes, but i don't believe i've ever been particularly praising of their play.

[InsidiousLemons]

no. scumlean now but she hasn't posted for the last half of this game so far so it's a bit difficult to say anything more. her last few posts before poofing sucked though

[InsidiousLemons]

961 and 964 in particular, but it feels like she defaults to coasting for a long time before that because she realizes the pressure is off of her and is content to let town stumble around in the dark

[InsidiousLemons]

yeah, for sure. like i said, she's been coasting for a while now.

were you going anywhere with this or just posting to post again?

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: VFP

[InsidiousLemons]

I crumbed my role in my first post.

UNVOTE: robert

lol 20/20 hindsight and all but wow that was obvious my b


so can you please point out the post where you thought andante revealed her pr because i didn't see it and i thought that was you scum BSing

any inkling where you might want to put your vote? you've been keeping your hands pretty clean the past few days

[InsidiousLemons]

not voting [3]:

Haschel Cedricson, VFP, Green Crayons

not voting [1]:

Green Crayons

not voting [1]:

Green Crayons

not voting [2]:

Green Crayons, Andante

not voting [1]:

Green Crayons

not voting [2]:

Green Crayons, VFP

not voting [2]:

Green Crayons, Asteria

not voting [2]:

Green Crayons, Asteria

not voting [2]:

Green Crayons, Asteria

this is gonna be some real useful info after the flip

[InsidiousLemons]

not voting [3]:

Haschel Cedricson, VFP, Green Crayons

not voting [1]:

Green Crayons

not voting [1]:

Green Crayons

not voting [2]:

Green Crayons, Andante

not voting [1]:

Green Crayons

not voting [2]:

Green Crayons, VFP

not voting [2]:

Green Crayons, Asteria

not voting [2]:

Green Crayons, Asteria

not voting [2]:

Green Crayons, Asteria

this is gonna be some real useful info after the flip

Not doing anything is scum!indicative.

Also its kind of hilarious STD claims I am scum for doing nothing while GCray literally doing nothing gets a townread from him

i know. i moreso meant for voting pattern analysis purposes. we let him play too hands-off, though i recognize that was due to personal life circumstances to some extent. a shame he had to replace out. it will take some convincing from the replacement for me to think the slot is town, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like there will be much time for that conversation.

[InsidiousLemons]

dude honestly if everyone else wants to do rmh i guess i could but i still maintain that execing a claimed tracker d1 is stupid

agree with this sentiment

[InsidiousLemons]

Btw, I'm taking a day off from this thread.

also come the fuck on please do not do this

[InsidiousLemons]

what if i claim gunsmith

what the actual fuck? are we really just going to let this slide?

and the point about GC replacing sitewide is a bald-faced lie and you clearly know it. all it takes is a cursory glance at his post history.

i know what i've said about not wanting to elim claimed PRs D1 but this is fucking unbelievable.

i've been on the fence about STD -- posts like 1650 feel like AtE more than genuine input, and their defense of their reactionary voting by pointing out that they hadn't voted me or VFP (?) is a very weak one. but they still don't feel like the best D1 exec to me, and this flash wagon on them reeks of scum opportunism.

VOTE: DkKoba

[InsidiousLemons]

vote count 1.28

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-04-21 19:30:00).

execution

DkKoba [5]:

PookyTheMagicalBear, VFP, Robert M Hunter, Andante, T3

VFP [3]:

InsidiousLemons, osuka, Salsabil Faria

Asteria [1]:

Anya

Andresvmb [1]:

Save The Dragons

Save The Dragons [1]:

Andresvmb

not voting [2]:

DkKoba, Asteria

mod notes

~ insidiouslemons v/la on the 21st

flavour

@insidious @osuka, @salasabil, can you all explain the VFB vote?

you can find my reasons for my VFP vote in 1782.

[InsidiousLemons]

lol okay

VOTE: Asteria

[InsidiousLemons]

i've had a lot of time to try and process whatever the fuck happened in the closing hours of D1 and i think i've concluded that anya stealing "dragon-slaying cred", while monumentally stupid, is probably not scum AI.

we can get into the WIFOM of the dumb mafia choice (whether it's smart scum trying to look dumb or dumb scum being dumb scum) but i do have to say yeah, it's looking more likely than not that the people yelling about how obviously fake the tracker claim was are probably not scum

andante the reaction test here was a decent idea but executed a bit sloppily. i'm torn between thinking asteria's claim is too specific to be fake and too convenient to not be. think i'll leave my vote where it is for now

[InsidiousLemons]

you'd also definitely have a gun, so if you're real... that vig situation is still a thing...

not sure i understand this comment. are you speaking of the possibility that asteria is maf PR? what vig situation?

why on earth would you hammer if you were pretty certain dragons was flipping town? what was the thought process there?

[InsidiousLemons]

yeah koba is pretty transparently lying here. they even said they were gonna base their shot decision on the dragons flip, and if they shot a protected scum they would've died because of the weak modifier. don't know why i didn't think of this earlier.

VOTE: DkKoba

@Koba what happened

@Asteria I don't think it's necessary to out it just yet. wait to see if you can catch scum in a fakeclaim, we have like 99% of D2 left

[InsidiousLemons]

mafia roleblocker would mean there's a whole lot of PRs in this game. i could maaaaybe see even night doctor/odd night RB or something but that still feels unlikely. i'm new to setup spec though

pedit

lmfao why the fuck do you want me dead so bad

[InsidiousLemons]

my fault, i thought the neapolitan role only checked for vanilla status not specifically VT. hence i thought a negative could mean either VT or non-PR maf

[InsidiousLemons]

I'm fine with VFP but we have 8 goddamn days. let's get something out of Koba because they seem hella scummy right now

[InsidiousLemons]

once again you want me dead for disagreeing with you. you are obvtown to me in this game so it doesn't matter as much but if you keep playing like this you're going to seriously hurt your town game. stop getting so angry over a simple discussion

[InsidiousLemons]

you'd also definitely have a gun, so if you're real... that vig situation is still a thing...

not sure i understand this comment. are you speaking of the possibility that asteria is maf PR? what vig situation?

why on earth would you hammer if you were pretty certain dragons was flipping town? what was the thought process there?

neopolitans have guns, vigs have guns, I have a gun, that's 3 guns there, 1 more in play. at least 1 scum has a gun. so if the 3 pr claims are real, we have a traitor in play

you never answered my second question here

also, like i said, i also think VFP is scum. literally made a case on him yesterday. you have to stop with this me vs the world mentality

[InsidiousLemons]

gonna poof for a bit to not bloat this thread while others are away. know that i am not attacking you, i'm trying to convince you to play this game in a more constructive and methodical way

[InsidiousLemons]

i never pushed dragons and don't disagree about scum!VFP. stop mischaracterizing me.

bye for now lolol

[InsidiousLemons]

lol okay

VOTE: Asteria

Having a gun is not always indicate mafia?? I'm not saying that she can't be, but want to your reason for this.

i wanted to put as much pressure on asteria as possible so their reaction would be a kneejerk emotional one rather than giving them time to think it out. their reaction leans scum to me but i'm still unsure.

koba your explanation is laughable. why do you think there are 2 doctors? why do you think there is a tracker at all?

VFP i don't like your push on andante. scum RB is really the only logical explanation for weakvig!koba not dying, and that's where andante's mind went as well as mine. why are they scum for thinking of that possibility but not me?

fwiw T3 reeks right now. i acknowledge they haven't had much time but not doing any catchup over the night is scum AI imo and their wordless vote on the dragons train at the end of D1 does not look good. VFP-T3-Koba is not a bad solve to me atm.

p-edit @salsa neapolitan is not a killing role lol

[InsidiousLemons]

VFP i don't like your push on andante. scum RB is really the only logical explanation for weakvig!koba not dying, and that's where andante's mind went as well as mine. why are they scum for thinking of that possibility but not me?

Oh yeah they are weak vig.
Well then that should clear since Dk shot me.

Also Andante is still scum.

what are you saying here? why does them claiming to have shot you "clear" them?

[InsidiousLemons]

So koba town = vfp scum or is there another explanation?

????????????????

[InsidiousLemons]

neapolitan does not have a gun ferda luvva gawd

[InsidiousLemons]

oh nevermind lmao they do for some fucking reason https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Gunsmith

[InsidiousLemons]

DkKoba grasping at straws trying to make their claim make any goddamn sense

[InsidiousLemons]

you have to understand like from my pov i am thinking of my role as a role that mafia is equipped to nullify. in a setup like this where maf confirmed have a doc you should expect a vig to exist - i am the only one - so occam's razor should tell you my claim is likely legit.

i think there's a vig in this setup, absolutely. and the fact no other vig has shown up to CC you does lend you some credibility. i just found the circumstances of the claim incredibly scummy -- why ask what would happen if you claimed GS? why fish around for which PR claims already existed before deciding what to claim? and yes the maf doc is equipped to nullify you, but that clearly isn't what happened since you're still alive.

i think i'm convincing myself that your claim is legit, and i think my earlier theory of odd night RB/even night doc is probably correct. would still like the above questions answered though

[InsidiousLemons]

like theyre fully back to null if im being honest but i did scumread them going into the night and their reaction feels genuine.

So if vfp is scum what do you think happened?

they were rolestopped

Why the mafia roleblocker didn't roleblock the claim vig (you) but

VFP

who didn't claim anything??

roleblocker blocks a role from taking an action, rolestopper blocks a person from having a night action taken on them. they're 2 different roles

[InsidiousLemons]

like theyre fully back to null if im being honest but i did scumread them going into the night and their reaction feels genuine.

So if vfp is scum what do you think happened?

they were rolestopped

Why the mafia roleblocker didn't roleblock the claim vig (you) but

VFP

who didn't claim anything??

roleblocker blocks a role from taking an action, rolestopper blocks a person from having a night action taken on them. they're 2 different roles

[InsidiousLemons]

asteria remind me of your claim again? this game is fckn wild

[InsidiousLemons]

seems very unlikely to have all 3. if weak vig is indeed killed by a roleblocker, then that would make VFP scum who got rolestopped by their buddy, assuming koba's claim is real. unless my brain is short circuiting which it may well be

[InsidiousLemons]

because if i target scum who is saved i just die instead

is this not what the weak modifier does

[InsidiousLemons]

is it i who is being stupid

[InsidiousLemons]

i parsed this as
weak vig shoots unprotected maf --> maf dies, vig lives
weak vig shoots protected maf --> maf lives, vig dies

reading the wiki page on "weak" tells me i am indeed being stupid

UNVOTE:

[InsidiousLemons]

okay, i get it now. this is my own fault for being unfamiliar with the weak modifier and not double checking

[InsidiousLemons]

why are you fucking assuming theres only 1 scum doc where does it say that

why would there be multiple scum docs though?

[InsidiousLemons]

so you all wanna call Koba fake vig/ assume VFP was rolestopped....

rolestopper on VFP makes about 0 sense.

why does this make no sense to you? it's one of the only ways VFP and koba could have both lived

[InsidiousLemons]

so vfp is town unless we have a DkKoba asteria vfp house party exactly

seems so. though if any one of them flips scum, it makes it all but confirmed that the others are as well. i'm still adamant most of these roleclaims are fake though lol

[InsidiousLemons]

that whole reaction check felt pretty fake to me. would not be surprised in the slightest if VFP is scum and Asteria's claim is baloney. mafdoc!VFP, anyone?

[InsidiousLemons]

so vfp is town unless we have a DkKoba asteria vfp house party exactly

like the more i think about it the less of a stretch this seems lol. is the wifom turning my brain to mush or is this just a holy trifecta of scum

[InsidiousLemons]

that whole reaction check felt pretty fake to me. would not be surprised in the slightest if VFP is scum and Asteria's claim is baloney. mafdoc!VFP, anyone?

i agree with the first part but what makes vfp the mafia doctor specifically?

if you're gonna pick a scum to clear as VT in order to solidify a neapo fakeclaim, why not kill two birds with one stone and "confirm" your most powerful role as VT?

[InsidiousLemons]

an Asteria lim today is probably my top choice but not sure how i feel about putting her down to L-1 so early into D2. agree with what's been said about the pros and cons of a VFP vs Asteria lim

[InsidiousLemons]

t3 could easily be demotivated wolf tbh he pops in regularly enough where it appears like he's reading but he doesn't really have any comments or reads to give and those are a lot more effort to fake as wolf so maybe he's fatigued and ran out of energy drinks

there's probably one wolf in dkkoba and asteria and it still feels dkkoba to me for the stuff they were saying earlier

so if it's between t3 and asteria VOTE: T3

t3 could easily be demotivated wolf tbh he pops in regularly enough where it appears like he's reading but he doesn't really have any comments or reads to give and those are a lot more effort to fake as wolf so maybe he's fatigued and ran out of energy drinks

there's probably one wolf in dkkoba and asteria and it still feels dkkoba to me for the stuff they were saying earlier

so if it's between t3 and asteria VOTE: T3

this makes no sense and feels like a last ditch effort to push the wagon off asteria lmao

[InsidiousLemons]

We could always lim scum Andres

why do you still believe Andres is scum

[InsidiousLemons]

I've skimmed Andres ISO and I think he is scum. First,he is in my PoE. Second, it's almost like he's only posting content when asked. He isn't asking questions or doing anything, only responding to people when it directly involves him. That ppretty much sums up my scumread.

i have clinical depression from reading this post

i had it before but now i have to double up on my medication and its not going to be covered by my health insurance

t3 would be getting the rope today if asteria wasn't a markedly more useful elim mechanically

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: Asteria

not sure how any of what's happened recently could convince you that voting Asteria is a bad idea. i am more than fine with this elim today. worst case scenario we STILL get more info than if we flip T3

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: Asteria

not sure how any of what's happened recently could convince you that voting Asteria is a bad idea. i am more than fine with this elim today. worst case scenario we STILL get more info than if we flip T3

holy shit isnt that what ive been saying for days now

yeah, it is. the only reason i voted now instead of earlier is because andante took her vote off, because i didn't want to out asteria down to e-1 so early, same as you.

either way they're there now

[InsidiousLemons]

I could see Lemons scum as well

he started out in a bulldozer but moved to a semi convertible recently true but the earlier stuff was still good

lemons why did you sell your bulldozer i liked it

quite honestly i just don't have as much time or brainpower to pour into this game as i did at the very beginning. my V/LA on the 21st was for quad wisdom tooth removal and for the few days prior to that i was scrambling to get stuff done that i knew i wouldn't be able to afterwards. i'll be back to my old self before long

[InsidiousLemons]

I could see Lemons scum as well

he started out in a bulldozer but moved to a semi convertible recently true but the earlier stuff was still good

lemons why did you sell your bulldozer i liked it

quite honestly i just don't have as much time or brainpower to pour into this game as i did at the very beginning. my V/LA on the 21st was for quad wisdom tooth removal and for the few days prior to that i was scrambling to get stuff done that i knew i wouldn't be able to afterwards. i'll be back to my old self before long

[InsidiousLemons]

okay okay actually random thought let me just say this -- are we sure that in the universe where we kill town!asteria today, scum won't just shoot town!VFP tonight and leave us back at square one trying to figure out if Koba and Andante are the real deal?

UNVOTE: while we discuss because i hadn't thought of this before

[InsidiousLemons]

sorry to keep flip flopping on and off of asteria but we have more than enough time and i want to talk this through even if it turns out i'm being stupid

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: Asteria

not sure how any of what's happened recently could convince you that voting Asteria is a bad idea. i am more than fine with this elim today. worst case scenario we STILL get more info than if we flip T3

holy shit isnt that what ive been saying for days now

So why arent u voting there

i haven’t voted asteria because that would be e-1 and i don’t trust you clowns not to hammer, but consider my vote to be spiritually on that slot

shooting u on a red flip

what sense does it make for osuka to be scum if asteria flips red lol

[InsidiousLemons]

sorry to keep flip flopping on and off of asteria but we have more than enough time and i want to talk this through even if it turns out i'm being stupid

exactly we have plenty of time.

alright, what's the plan here? not sure I like the fast wagon on the neo claim...

it was a sketchy claim and asteria was in plenty of people's scumpools already by the end of D1. think about it -- if you know there's a gunsmith and they might target you or one of your buddies, what kind of gunned PR claim do you want to make? probably one where you:

don't have to provide results every day (check!)
can clear your buddies as conftown (check!)
don't have to clear your buddies as PRs, thus eliminating the need to explain why they haven't been NK'd (check!)
don't claim an especially powerful role, so that it's plausible you yourself wouldn't be NK'd (check!)

i'm just saying, it's an extremely optimal fakeclaim that could've easily been hashed out as a contingency plan in scumchat. in the same position as scum, i probably would've done something very similar.

@asteria in your perfect world where andres and salsa are the next 2 elims (imagining for the sake of the hypothetical that no one is NK'd),

who do you check N3?

p-edit @VFP if you're VT, it might actually be in scum's best interest to kill you tonight if asteria flips neapolitan. they can eliminate the only 100% conftown player, and continue to cast doubt on andante's claim by not making her the NK. koba will probably self-resolve tonight either way, so that's less of a motivation than i'd originally thought, but in the universe where asteria is neapolitan this does seem like an okay scum strategy that negates the mechanical utility of flipping asteria today in a worst-case scenario.

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: Asteria

not sure how any of what's happened recently could convince you that voting Asteria is a bad idea. i am more than fine with this elim today. worst case scenario we STILL get more info than if we flip T3

holy shit isnt that what ive been saying for days now

So why arent u voting there

i haven’t voted asteria because that would be e-1 and i don’t trust you clowns not to hammer, but consider my vote to be spiritually on that slot

shooting u on a red flip

what sense does it make for osuka to be scum if asteria flips red lol

Because of this fake resistance theyre putting up trying to push it off

after a quickhammer D1 which left dragons with no opportunity to have a final word pre-elim, i can't really blame osuka for not wanting to leave asteria on e-1 overnight. though fwiw if osuka is scum here he is a force to be reckoned with and kinda has this game on lock so far. i don't know scum!osuka meta so that may be worth looking into. gonna take a dive into T3's meta to see what upset osuka so much

[InsidiousLemons]

I also tr t3, based on knowing who they are as a player

Ok perfect. T3 goes.

VOTE: T3

Yeah, but I'm not thinking about a T3 flip instead of Asteria anymore, like, I'm thinking about finding an actual scumread.

what happened between these 2 posts? why are you liking T3 "a bit more"?

[InsidiousLemons]

can you point to anything specific? "kinda meta stuff" doesn't give me a lot to go off of.

[InsidiousLemons]

agreed. i wanted to see if you'd try and fabricate something more directly town AI. i've just read through hT3's posts in the game of his you linked, and while i agree he is much more active there than he has been here, he only had about half as much catch-up to do. combine this with the fact that he's a (supposedly) 13-year-old kid who's playing multiple games at once, several of which he replaced into and has to catch up on, and i really don't think it's that unreasonable to read his posting thus far as demotivated/burnt out town (piss-poor though that posting may be). 2914 is a bit more confusing to me now.

@osuka can you explain a bit more why reading T3's meta swung you so strongly when, by your own admission, meta doesn't usually have that effect on you? what did you see in that game that andante and i are missing?

p-edit mafdoc!pooky isn't entirely out of the question to me. i've seen maf PRs intentionally stand out and attract attention D1 in the way pooky did in order to allay accusations of trying to fly under the radar.

[InsidiousLemons]

^this post is @2981

[InsidiousLemons]

I find it a little weird VFP doesn't think to question Asteria at all... like, sure you're VT and someone guessed correctly that you are, just feels like VFP has no doubt with Asteria, so I'm not so sure she's actually neo

It's more that voting off someone who can potentially get a result tomorrow, or at least force scum to make a choice if the 3 PRs are all town seems better than a lim here.
You're looking to lim for the claim, more than for being scum. It's day 2 and that's just makes no sense to me.

On the side though, I think Asteria is town here. They should only be considered scum here if I am.
I'm not sure why they would be accepting to be the lim over me other wise. Not to mention picking me as VT was an un needed risk since I've been for 1 of the PR claims to be scum.
If I were going to be the lim anyway, it wouldn't hurt to claim someone else as VT.

only she couldn't potentially get a result tomorrow unless she's lying about the non-consecutive bit. we'll be waiting at least 2 more days and who knows what will have happened by then.

you also both keep raising this point about how Very Town it was of asteria to choose you as VT and to Selflessly And Heroically suggest herself as the lim instead. it's a towntell under most circumstances, sure, but you guys seem very determined to keep reminding us just how much of a towntell it is.

also: skimming through your ISO, 2566 catches my eye. i didn't bother reading into it at first, but the more i think about it the more my head hurts. these are the relevant posts:

My conftown result is VFP

I targeted them because people were scumreading them at the end of the day and I didn't think they were scum.

Asteria is lying.

oh you're saying you're not VT vfp? that would make things easy

VFP is most definitely VT. I'm not sure why they think I'm lying

I guess you picked the wrong person there. Was a worthy try.

Nice reaction test. And very understandable since people think I'm playing a guessing game with it

I am 100% certain VFP is VT

UNVOTE: Asteria
I am VT for the record. I also did a subtle post to make Asteria not want to pick me if they were lying.

Just give the name of the VT so I can convince them that Andante is scum.

the idea here is that by subtly crumbing PR while actually being VT, you are trying to coax lying!asteria into picking someone who isn't VT and will catch her in a lie. the problem with this is that you had no reason, as far as i can tell, to suspect that asteria would pick you in the first place if lying. you weren't obvtown D1, you hadn't claimed or crumbed VT. so what was the motivation for this "test" besides providing support for the idea that you really are VT? the more i look at it the more i start to read it as scum!VFP creating evidence for themself that they can fall back on after a planned "VFP is VT" result from asteria. this back-and-forth between VFP and asteria could easily be an example of the same -- them creating evidence of a reaction test to save themselves if questions were raised about the veracity of the nea claim. am i going full tinfoil? it's possible, but when there is conclusive proof that they are definitely the same alignment, it does raise the odds of this being scum collaboration.

[InsidiousLemons]

I find it a little weird VFP doesn't think to question Asteria at all... like, sure you're VT and someone guessed correctly that you are, just feels like VFP has no doubt with Asteria, so I'm not so sure she's actually neo

that being said: town points to VFP for

not

referencing the above-quoted conversation in response to this attack

[InsidiousLemons]

2977 is didn't-read-the-thread AI for andante

[InsidiousLemons]

If Asteria is fake, I think she just randomly picked someone everyone fossed. Like, I'm confused why she picks someone everyone else was sus of, then goes "well I didn't fos VFP" like, she also never said she TRed VFP either d1... idk, I'm kinda just down with yeeting her and just a "sorry if wrong" mindset

if asteria is fake she is almost certainly defending her scumbuddy. if she's gonna clear a random person why not pick someone other people TR'd more universally? and what sense does it make to pick a random person anyway when you could kill 2 birds with one stone, clear your scumbuddy, and know that they'd back you up on the VT claim? from there it's not too far of a jump to assume that you'd want to create a paper trail for yourself as a contingency. i know you've said you skip giant posts (anti-town behaviour but fine), but PLEASE read my 2990 and tell me what you think. it really isn't that long.

@pooky i'm happy to lay out my reasoning, but i've said much of it already and i'm not sure whether i'm one of the people you view as being "super sure" asteria is flipping red.

[InsidiousLemons]

also does your reasoning for wanting anya dead go beyond "she's on the asteria wagon"

[InsidiousLemons]

super sure? nah. sure enough to put her up as the lim, and be okay with it if i'm wrong and we lose a limited-usefulness PR in the process? yeah

[InsidiousLemons]

um Neopos are not limited usefulness PRs

but you might as well give me your reasoning/though process on why she is scum?

they are when they're non-consecutive night and likely to get NK'd in the interim.

most of my reasoning lies in the

extreme

convenience of her claim. as i said on the last page, it feels like a near-optimal pick for scum looking to buy themselves time in case of a GS check. it's not too much of a stretch to assume that if they thought this far ahead, they'd have also thought about what to say when prompted to out results. the dialogue between asteria and vfp could easily be rehearsed, and the reaction test performed was universally-applicable enough to work on any combination of GS-checked scum and their buddy.

on D1, she had a townlean on dragons for a good bit and then asks in 1111 for someone to explain the case on him, which no one seems to do. she says nothing more on the subject right up until 1637 when suddenly she "definitely doesn't TR him". says she'll take some time to ISO, comes back with 1983 and basically regurgitates what's already been said plus an actually okay point about how quickly the wagon moved from STD to crayons. this is the one and only original observation she makes about him before saying she's fine with him being the elim, voting him, and poofing.

not a spectacular showing D1 + shoddy claim + confirming VFP either way is kinda reason enough for me. though as i said i am far from 100% sure and would be happy to hear from the others.

[InsidiousLemons]

* Yeah the issue with VFP subtly claiming pr, was that Asteria was stuck with this neo claim after I forced her to claim it, so whichever VT she picked, she had to stick with it.

i didn't make this connection. that's actually a rather strong point in her favour

p-edit only likely to get NK'd as town. i said this in the context of the worst case scenario where we flip asteria and it turns out the claim was real.

[InsidiousLemons]

wait fuck i quoted the wrong part

[InsidiousLemons]

to be fair, I did say D1 I was gun checking VFP, and Asteria was like "We probably checked the same person" - She's probably real tbh

this is the connection i failed to make

[InsidiousLemons]

ahhh tbh I shouldn't have knowingly let town!Dragons die d1

knowingly?

you're seriously claiming you knew dragons was town and were willing to hammer anyway?

p-edit i think a maf neo is highly unlikely in this scenario. not out of the question, but you keep doing this thing where you assume that a fake town PR claim must come from the mafia equivalent of the same role and i don't really know what the reasoning behind it is

[InsidiousLemons]

p-edit only likely to get NK'd as town. i said this in the context of the worst case scenario where we flip asteria and it turns out the claim was real.

ok so if we let her live, wouldn't whether she gets NK'd or not give us valuable information about her alignment?

like if you're saying she definitely gets shot as town, why not give the scumbags a chance to kill her?

i never said she

definitely

gets shot, but point taken.

[InsidiousLemons]

ahhh tbh I shouldn't have knowingly let town!Dragons die d1

knowingly?

you're seriously claiming you knew dragons was town and were willing to hammer anyway?

p-edit i think a maf neo is highly unlikely in this scenario. not out of the question, but you keep doing this thing where you assume that a fake town PR claim must come from the mafia equivalent of the same role and i don't really know what the reasoning behind it is

did you not read my day 1? I kept yelling dragons town, even at the end I said it was flipping town... no one would listen, so I said "whatever" and let yall have it

i know you kept yelling dragons town. i just find it absurd that you would choose to make such an anti-town play as hammering a TR. stop playing like you don't care if you win or lose

[InsidiousLemons]

you threatened to hammer, which caused anya to do it instead. threatening to hammer a player you actively townread is not caring whether you win or lose. knock it off

i'm gonna stop fighting about this now but seriously you've been making consistently anti-town plays this whole game and your only defense has been "yolo"

[InsidiousLemons]

like, implying that I don't care if I win or lose.... excuse me?? if that were the case I'd be yeeting Asteria right now just like those who are voting her.... that's all they've done today "yeah get her! worst case VFP confirmed town"

this u?

VOTE: Asteria

I'm 100% down to speed vote this though lmao

ehh I'll bite VOTE: Asteria

worst case, Asteria is real, but VFP would be confirmed town

I might be down to just kill this neo claim, the claim itself is PERFECT for scum, like, it couldn't be much better... I might just yeet asteria tbh then we go from there

I'm kinda down with just hammering day here with an Asteria elim, and we discus stuff tomorrow

[InsidiousLemons]

i never said she definitely gets shot, but point taken.

i mean you said she'd be not a very useful town PR cuz she'd get shot at night

but getting shot at night is pretty damn useful? helluva lot better than needing to use an elimination on them tbh

like i said, point taken. i'm not even voting asteria right now. let's go through the options here

1) asteria flips nea
VFP is conf-VT and there is a non-zero chance scum immediately seizes the opportunity to NK him because of that fact. we lose ~1 nea result and scum doesn't have to spend a NK to make it happen. the worst outcome, but not a terrible one if VFP lives. even if he dies, that's an extra day's worth of GS results/vig shots.

2) asteria flips scum
VFP is now all but confscum after the whole reaction test thing. we get 2 scum for the price of 1, which is a pretty damn good deal.

now what we have to decide is which of these 2 is the more likely outcome. i'm torn between them, but you guys are beginning to sway me towards viewing #1 as more plausible than i'd thought.

p-edit @koba why

[InsidiousLemons]

is it working

[InsidiousLemons]

And if alive, you’re probably going to get a 1v1 at that point. It’s almost inevitable. Would the Scum risk that? I don’t know.

you lost me at this part. if who is alive? 1v1? would the scum risk what?

[InsidiousLemons]

it's kinda meta stuff, I think I understand his playstyle a little more idk we'll see if he has a gun tonight

T3 is a bad check. Try somewhere else.

why do you think so? who is a better option?

[InsidiousLemons]

if asteria is fake she is almost certainly defending her scumbuddy. if she's gonna clear a random person why not pick someone other people TR'd more universally?

Isn’t there a lot of value in clearing a potential mid-execution? I don’t know why you are advocating for this position. What value is there in clearing a player most people wouldn’t execute anyway?

this is in the context of her being scum and faking a VT check. not saying it's a good idea or beneficial for town

[InsidiousLemons]

And if alive, you’re probably going to get a 1v1 at that point. It’s almost inevitable. Would the Scum risk that? I don’t know.

you lost me at this part. if who is alive? 1v1? would the scum risk what?

If we leave Asteria alive, don’t execute there. And the Scum decide not to shoot there tonight because they believe the non-consecutive, right? Say we miss with every execution, but Asteria is still around. If the Scum don’t shoot there, they very likely put themselves in a situation were Asteria picks a player and they come back as not Vanilla Townie. Since we have specific claims from players, and we have a sense for the guns and who has them, that’s almost as good as a red check. Almost. That puts the Scum in a tough spot. That’s all I’m saying.

okay, i think i get what you're saying. what course of action are you advocating based on this?

[InsidiousLemons]

experienced players do not complain about other people using too much logic and too little emotion. the list goes on.

I’ve been thinking about this. I actually think a lack of emotion, or too much reliance on logic, is more Scum indicative than not. Town screw up all the time. I give convoluted reasoning on the regular. All you have to do is read any one of my completed games to see that. Town have incomplete information, and they make assumptions and take leaps of faith. They don’t have a choice. Scum on the other hand have all the information. They know who is Town, and who is not. So they can afford to make arguments that appear air tight, and not feel much frustration or anxiety because they know the answers. They know whether a vote gets them closer to their win condition, or whether it puts them in a harder spot. I don’t think Andante’s tell is silly. In fact I thought it made some sense.

I’ve been re-reading your ISO, and I just thought I would post this. Because I do find your detachment somewhat Scummy.

it's a difference of playstyle and of ideology i suppose. i don't think it's inherently scummy to use emotion and feelings to help you make reads or advance the game. of course town screws up, uses convoluted logic sometimes. for me, the best way to avoid making mistakes is to try and remove myself from who i

want

to be scum, who would make the game

easier to solve

if they were scum, and try to look at who actually is, based on the facts. for me, and for many people, allowing myself to get too emotionally attached to the outcome of the game or the flip of a specific player clouds my judgement. andante's accusation was that my overreliance on objectivity and underreliance on emotion made me scummy. i don't believe this is true, just as i don't believe the reverse is true. it may indeed be the case that it is harder for town players to abstract from their own emotions, frustrations, and doubts. but i find it hard to think you'd find an experienced player who argues that relying on logic alone is, in itself, a scumtell.

and there are reasons to read andante as plausibly town, but the posts he cites aren't examples of the ones i see

This is fascinating to me. Insidious has been pushing Andante aggressively for a bit now, explicitly stating that they’re engaged in lazy and terrible play for instance. But then, they say that there are reasons for seeing Andante as Town, but they don’t go into that at all (and I would point out that earlier all they said was that they had been reading Andante as Town on “gut”).

this is just untrue. i had been holding out on specifics in hopes that robert wouldn't just parrot whatever i did say, but i definitely pointed to a couple of more specific reasons than just gut feeling:

388 feels like genuine noobtown wordvomit from someone who is nervous and doesn't understand the game very well yet. i say this because it's painfully similar to how i played my first couple of town games here. the suggestion that scum might try to pocket one of their own buddies is a confusing one to me, but again (call me crazy), reads more like noobtown thinking out loud and smashing the submit button than scum floundering.

i am torn between these reactions being the result of town frustrated that no one else can tell they're town (sort of what greencrayons was talking about in the "thinking the thread revolves around them could be town ai" post),

--------

Andante, i'm curious how 823 makes you feel

seconded. to my knowledge they still haven't responded to this post. their repeated refusal to read and confidence that they won't be voted out for it does feel more like town to me though, based on gut. not sure how common this type of play is from either alignment, but it's ballsy

And then again, they repeat that on gut they could be Town, but don’t switch their vote.

i wanted to keep the pressure on, while also trying to see to what degree andante might try to buddy up to me if i gave them hope i might TR them if they reacted the right way.

In 2183 you say that you never pushed for Dragons, but you definitely left yourself open to voting there, so that’s a bit disingenuous:

i've been on the fence about STD -- posts like 1650 feel like AtE more than genuine input, and their defense of their reactionary voting by pointing out that they hadn't voted me or VFP (?) is a very weak one. but they still don't feel like the best D1 exec to me, and this flash wagon on them reeks of scum opportunism.

if "they made two sus posts but i don't want to exec them and the wagon on them is scummy" counts as a push, then okay, i guess i was being disingenuous. i never advocated for him as an exec option and never voted him. those facts being as they are, i have to say that yes, andante's assertion that i "kept pushing him for 0 fucking reason" (which is what i was responding to) is pretty ridiculous.

I find it a little weird VFP doesn't think to question Asteria at all... like, sure you're VT and someone guessed correctly that you are, just feels like VFP has no doubt with Asteria, so I'm not so sure she's actually neo

that being said: town points to VFP for

not

referencing the above-quoted conversation in response to this attack

why does this get town points? i'm following your case and i have zero problems with it so far

because part of my case on a VFP + Asteria scumteam was that the reaction test was set up to provide evidence in case of exactly this type of push. VFP

not

falling back on that conversation when presented with the opportunity to do so indicates that i was probably wrong about the motivation behind the reaction test.

[InsidiousLemons]

gonna go get some lunch, will be back to catch up a bit shortly

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: asteria because this wagon needs to not die and i'm confident that slot flips red, then we get vfp tomorrow and it's basically game

not sure i like this reductionism. there are a lot mroe moving parts than just "elim 2 scum to win". asteria's play has been leaning more town to me as the day has progressed. i am still all fucked up about the reaction test but i could see it being genuine, especially with the point andante raised about how she (andante) hinted at checking VFP on D1 and asteria came right out the gate with "we probably checked the same person". i agree that it would be really sweet if asteria flipped red, but it feels like a 50/50 to me and i don't want to do that much heavy lifting for the scum if we're wrong. atp today i would look at T3 and DKKoba as probable scum

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: DkKoba can we try this

[InsidiousLemons]

if there's 0 chance you think they're real then vote them with me. what has that slot done this game? what good is a weak vig to us when scum ostensibly have a roleblocker

and

a roleblocker in order for the claim to even hold water?

[InsidiousLemons]

if there's 0 chance you think they're real then vote them with me. what has that slot done this game? what good is a weak vig to us when scum ostensibly have a doctor

and

a roleblocker in order for the claim to even hold water?

EBWOP

[InsidiousLemons]

the only way a weak vig is materially useful to us is if they hit an unprotected mafia doc tonight. with a 1 in 9 chance of them targeting the right person, plus the likelihood that the mafia doctor will just protect itself, PLUS the much greater possibility of Koba just straight up hitting town... why leave them alive? they are barely in this game. half their ISO is posting to post

p-edit we can't keep saying "we'll let it resolve itself". we have to take action on someone eventually, and sooner or later a PR claim is gonna have to be challenged with a bullet. why not today?

[InsidiousLemons]

Like, I have a lot less of a challenge challenging Koba over Asteria here, but like, as it was explained, if Koba shoots a doc save, they die. So I'm trying to understand, if Koba is town, why did Koba shoot VFP last night? didn't give us a hint of who they were shooting, so if Koba died, we'd have had no idea who they shot. Which is why I'm struggling to believe Koba is real... Koba jumped right on the Asteria wagon, like, idk, I might be down to yeet Koba here, like, Crayons was under extreme pressure. subbed out, Koba jumped in with the gs stuff, knowing we had a gs, when I hadn't claimed gs on those recent pages... I feel like koba has tmi....
VOTE: Koba

I don't see how they're even being useful for town if they are real, like the shot last night? we had NO way of knowing Koba shot vfp, so if koba died... useless... and I don't think Koba would've shot if they were real

i don't see how koba would know there was a gunsmith regardless. not like mafia is informed of the town PRs, right? the post where they hypothetically claimed gunsmith and then never really explained why they did that was very weird to me but i don't think it comes from having TMI

[InsidiousLemons]

gonna be honest, i didn't think about the fact scum!koba would likely have read scumchat before the thread lol. though if you had that in mind already, wouldn't koba asking about a hypothetical GS claim actually lend them some towncred to you?

also i would like to know what the partner equity you see between myself and koba is.

[InsidiousLemons]

I'll flip lemons then koba, both are flipping scum

VOTE: lemons

i must inform you once again that you do not have dictatorial power over elimination decisions lol

[InsidiousLemons]

what is your current scumpool andante? it seems to change frequently based on whatever has been said in the last few posts. you are very easily swayed by others' arguments and it's part of a running theme of you just kind of posting and voting without seeming to analyze the game from a long-term perspective

[InsidiousLemons]

the current pool?
T3, clidd, osuka, Anya, InsidiousLemons, VFP, DkKoba, Asteria

that's 8 players in an 11 player game. it's good not to rule anyone one definitively but i think you may need to pare this down a little

almost like guns were on my mind because of my role being vig?

this is rather a silly defense, no? the existence of the gunsmith as a role is predicated precisely upon the fact that an overwhelming number of town PRs have guns

p-edit i feel confident that there is scum in {Asteria, DkKoba}. i could compromise on waiting one more day but Koba is pinging me right now. can you elaborate on your thoughts on anya?

[InsidiousLemons]

rule anyone out* EBWOP

[InsidiousLemons]

exactly. and i'm not even convinced there aren't any unclaimed PRs. andante still feels town to me which is why i say {asteria, koba} is the fakeclaim pool

[InsidiousLemons]

if i softclaimed voyeur and then hardclaimed watcher, would you permit me to defend myself with the claim that binoculars were on my mind? come on

[InsidiousLemons]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bOLaNwqlFY

[InsidiousLemons]

if you admit that it's really dumb then why are you voting me for thinking it's really dumb

[InsidiousLemons]

I literally fakeclaim PR roles as VT all the time(not for survival tho) - i decided to extend this to PR claims too here. Gotta mix up the meta. Im always playing to fool the scum.

can you point me to a couple of games where you've done this?

[InsidiousLemons]

i'm not just pushing koba because they're mechanically likely to be scum. they've been popping in with low effort posts, self-defense and almost nothing else for pretty much the entirety of D2 so far. i was pushing you for a combination of mechanical advantage and what i saw as scummy play. i would never advocate a lim solely based on statistical likelihood.

who would you lim today out of your 3?

p-edit @ 3184

[InsidiousLemons]

In specific, this line you said:
> i don't see how koba would know there was a gunsmith regardless. not like mafia is informed of the town PRs, right?

Town is the ones uncertain there's a gs, mafia is most likely believing my claim just like they bought the tracker claim "not like the mafia is informed of town PRs" I claimed gs way before koba entered...

The gs thing was a partial soft to my own role because i didnt want to claim at the time.

Wait how is gs a soft for weak vig?

[InsidiousLemons]

I literally fakeclaim PR roles as VT all the time(not for survival tho) - i decided to extend this to PR claims too here. Gotta mix up the meta. Im always playing to fool the scum.

can you point me to a couple of games where you've done this?

large normal etymologies. On mobile cba to link

also a mini normal recently where a mason flipped and i tried to roleswap lol

Nothing else comes to mind, i tend to play vanilla micros with special mechs

you played on an alt during etymologies and i dont know what the account name is so i cant verify this

kinda confused by the push on oranges i'm not seeing it i don't like the andres wagon either so i dunno where i'd vote if people really want to leave all the roles alone to hopefully sort themselves out

t3 for sure actually but no one seems interested in that which makes him even more appealing it's like when they tell you not to step onto the grass so you sprint onto it

i definitely want t3 gone atp but that slot has done absolutely fuck all for the entire game which means we get zero info on any other player. i'd rather wait to lim that slot but

@T3 if you don't start fucking posting some actual non-zero-effort content on a regular basis within the next 24 hours i will not hesitate to tunnel you for a policy elim. i'm almost positive that enough of the others would back me up on this to have you killed. play the game dingus

[InsidiousLemons]

Hoping to eliminate osuka. I'm having a hard time reading their push on me in good faith

i kinda can't believe i'm saying this but i could

maybe

get behind this -- only as a compromise though. as i've already pointed out i don't love 3080, and there's a definite misrep in 3082, 3083 of what i read as strong confidence behind a calculated play from VFP. osuka also previously said he liked my case on VFP, in which my analysis of VFP's reaction test as confident and calculated played a central part. i suppose i could see his push on T3 as a frustrated dig at a scumpartner but why wouldn't he just rail against him in scumchat? i'm not convinced. Koba is definitely still my top pick for an elim today.

[InsidiousLemons]

can you elaborate on your thoughts on anya?

@pooky still waiting on a response to this