Mini Normal 2191 | Endgame

[Maduisha]

Hi Koba and Ben! Glad to see you again.

VOTE: Chumbo for being a successful rookie.

[Maduisha]

sorry to double post but while i’m here, and a general question for anyone who sees this:

what’s your biggest strength as a mafia player? eschewing alignment, just focusing solely on self-perception.

Uh... I had two games as scum, in one I was heavily townread and let my partner die without trying to save them (they didn't want me to), and in the second one I bussed my partner for towncred. So, I would say my partners are the stronger part of my scum teams? Because I rely on them like that to survive.

Personal strength... I think in the first one they said I was relatable and townie? I don't know. 2 games sample size is too small.

[Maduisha]

Also, I don't think I need VLA, but I want to say in advance that I will be pretty absent on January 19th until the evening (I live in Spain so my evening is different from yours, but so you get an idea).

[Maduisha]

I read Nepenthe's question as strength as scum player only, my bad.

As town player... I'm usually very paranoid and try to find lies. That has helped me find scum, but it has often backfired too. Last game I tunneled the two best town players while townreading both the scum players for a pretty long time, pretty yikes.

[Maduisha]

oh no maduisha is mafia again.................

Do you think so...

Maybe we should flashhammer while she isn't looking.......

[Maduisha]

You're very self conscious and look as though u feel as though u need to towntell in a way that isn't offensive, even apologizing a lot.

i think one apology is not "apologizing a lot" but i do find that people who are playing to an agenda (in this case, scum because i'm pretty sure this isn't a game with 3p - if it is, i'll cry) need to start early on trying to create a narrative surrounding other players so that later, when they attempt to build on that push, it looks more substantial than it actually is. try again, and this time, i want you to really analyze what i said and make a good case for it.

also, am i being pocketed by ben? is this what it feels like? am i the pet townie?

I am liking this post because you are acknowledging the possibility of pocketing existing in this scenario, although I feel like Ben is just taking a posture about Koba's gut feel about you. But yeah, a wary mindset smells townier to me.

call it cynical but i think tone is a falsehood in a text based game early on, especially when you have no previous experience with a player to be able to judge whether or not they're communicating in a way that's out of character for them or, as you might say, "tonally" errant. i like to wait until the tenth page or so to start pretending i can read people for tone.

I understand where you come from, I was like that too at first. However with experience I came to realise that there are some ways of speech that can indicate you what is the other person's stance. For example, when you make a half-hearted statement like "I believe Sirius is scummy" and the player reacts in an offended way, or tries to defend themselves by deflecting, it can give you a good idea of if they have more of a survivalist way of behaving in that particular game.

[Maduisha]

Hmm...

Lenora, this is your first game here, although you have experience outside the site, right? It is not mandatory to play newbie games, but I'm curious to know why you chose a normal as your first game. Do you think your off-site skills can translate well into forum mafia?

I am asking because I can't like to myself, and when I see "lost new player" behavior, I tend to townread by gut. But up until now, I had only played newbie games, so it was more usual to find newbies, in general.

[Maduisha]

And in my last game, I townread a scum player because they were playing the newbie card quite a bit, sooo...

I'll try to contain how jumpy I usually am regarding this for now.

[Maduisha]

I am asking because I can't like to myself,

*Lie

Sigh.

[Maduisha]

Hmm, perhaps vague wording from the mod is to not be explicit about the contents of the setup. No unfair advantages and such.

Like, all topics = 1 topic is possible.

[Maduisha]

Sssh, no softing. Only I can softclaim my role D1 every game.

(I swear every time I do that, it's not on purpose, lol. People call me out and I'm like "shit, I implied it, didn't I?")

PEdit: I see, so it was impatience... well, let's see if we can sort you more easily once the thread starts moving a bit and you can give us your opinion about stuff. I will try to remain neutral about being new to the site and such.

[Maduisha]

Aah, I'm kinda excited to see Ben's detective skills in action too. He couldn't do much in the last game we coincided, and everyone there hyped him as town beast, haha.

I can't wait, I have a feeling that this game is gonna be fun.

[Maduisha]

btw joqiza missed u @maddy

I loved playing with captain Joqiza!! An experience to be sure. He was always so uplifting me when I was hating my own plays in the scum pt constantly, lol.

Sssh, no softing. Only I can softclaim my role D1 every game.

(I swear every time I do that, it's not on purpose, lol. People call me out and I'm like "shit, I implied it, didn't I?")

PEdit: I see, so it was impatience... well, let's see if we can sort you more easily once the thread starts moving a bit and you can give us your opinion about stuff. I will try to remain neutral about being new to the site and such.

yeah, when i saw this started i wasn't sure if it was the newbie game or regular one, but i realized right after posting it wasn't the newbie game so i was mentally chastising myself for sounding clueless. i've read through the rules now though

i like your consideration of me - it seems like a towny mindset to at first consider writing it off then remember that method didn't work for you previously

I just want to keep it in mind but not go overboard with it as indicative of anything, that's all. I still have my eyes on you (and everyone else) for that matter.

[Maduisha]

Hello! I'm free from the stuff that had me busy today, and I've caught up with the thread.

i saw it as a bit OTT/performative - i'd maybe feel differently if they re-evaluated from it or if I saw the test on nepenthe as useful, but i'm getting the sense that koba is struggling to explain their reads/reasons

VOTE: dkkoba

Well I'm fairly certain that Koba is usually this aggressive and I don't think this relates to "struggling to explain their reads/reasons" in the slightest, it's just how Koba plays the game.

it's not the aggression itself that i find scummy though, it's the explanations.. like townreading Chumbo because he doesn't look like he has information

I want to point out here that when Koba says "Chumbo doesn't seem informed", they probably mean it more like "they don't seem informed about the setup/people's alignments." It's a way to say "I don't think these words come from scum mentality", instead of meaning "having information", in general.

Honestly the whole pocketing thing kinda seems more likely to come from scum to me. It just seems like a buzzword that can make you seem town.

Actually, I disagree because it is a concept that exists for a reason. Some people subconsciously feel drawn to townread/make town block with people that agree with them, or people that go out of their way to defend them. And in more extreme cases, players that know each other can get the other's trust easier if they manage to emulate their usual towntells that the other person is used to. Being wary of pocketing can turn you paranoid, but having it in mind can save you from blindly trusting scum. For me, the fact that he brought it up makes them feel townier, because it denotes a skeptical mindset + it's more juicy for scum to latch onto people that see them as towny.

[Maduisha]

About Umlaut's paranoia of Lenora's "newbiecard behavior", I think I pointed it out before in this thread already, so I understand where he comes from, but I liked Lenora's responses when I asked her why she joined this game as first game, and her willingness to learn the site's meta, so I don't think it's purposeful instrumentation of newbie posts. I will still be watching her, but I think she's on the townier so far.

Nep and Lenora are the ones giving me the best town vibes right now, with Zulfy and Fuzzy at the bottom of the null pile because I need more posts to work with.

[Maduisha]

Writing down the scum team and putting it in an envelope

Chumbo's in the envelope

Alright, I don't know if this is some start of the day joke, but if you actually have some gut feeling about Chumbo, please do share the reason. I don't like the current pushes out there, so I'd be willing to listen if you think you can sell me a Chumbo wagon.

I did think his drunk-posting was alright, but let's see.

[Maduisha]

Some observation
If Nepenthe is town he would be an easy target for scum to try to eliminate. I am not sure if Nepenthe is an awkward town or awkward scum. As both seem possible at the moment

Care to explain why is Nepenthe an "easy target for elimination", according to you? I don't see people hard pushing that wagon right now, so I wonder where else do you see this "weakness."

[Maduisha]

Hello! I'm free from the stuff that had me busy today, and I've caught up with the thread.

i saw it as a bit OTT/performative - i'd maybe feel differently if they re-evaluated from it or if I saw the test on nepenthe as useful, but i'm getting the sense that koba is struggling to explain their reads/reasons

VOTE: dkkoba

Well I'm fairly certain that Koba is usually this aggressive and I don't think this relates to "struggling to explain their reads/reasons" in the slightest, it's just how Koba plays the game.

it's not the aggression itself that i find scummy though, it's the explanations.. like townreading Chumbo because he doesn't look like he has information

I want to point out here that when Koba says "Chumbo doesn't seem informed", they probably mean it more like "they don't seem informed about the setup/people's alignments." It's a way to say "I don't think these words come from scum mentality", instead of meaning "having information", in general.

I understand this, but the reasoning/read came after chumbo only made 3 posts, and none of them to me looked like Chumbo was or wasn't informed so I don't get how koba reached that conclusion

Hmm, the post you're mentioning in which Chumbo had only posted 3 times is actually Koba saying Chumbo has "town vibes", in post 17. And the post in which they say Chumbo doesn't look informed is post 59, so while some time had transpired from one post to another, it's true it's a bit weird that it was offered as explanation for post 17 in which there wasn't enough material to say that yet.

Koba, can you talk to me about your feels on Chumbo? Zulfy seems to have an opposite opinion to yours, so maybe we can get something interesting out of this.

[Maduisha]

Alright, I don't know if this is some start of the day joke, but if you actually have some gut feeling about Chumbo, please do share the reason. I don't like the current pushes out there, so I'd be willing to listen if you think you can sell me a Chumbo wagon.

I did think his drunk-posting was alright, but let's see.

Just seemed like classic lurkscum. Also the drunk-posting, which wouldn't be a factor at the time I Made that post cuz he: wrote it after I posted, was just rapid-fire nothingness replies if you ask me. Never been a fan of those, it's the easiest effort to ape.

I see. Well, the drunkposting remark from me was because it contributes to my thoughts on him before you could answer my post. I agree he lacked a bit of content before those posts, but being honest, the game is pretty empty so far (and at that point too), and it's hard to make content from nothing. What's your current opinion on Chumbo now that you read his other posts? Do you think it was an effort to stand out or genuine thought process?

Maduisha- As I stated it was just first thoughts. Scum like easy targets and since newbie are still adjusting to the new playstyle of a new site ( all mafia sites plays differently) it makes them easy targets. Scum also sometimes like to fish. That is to test the water to see if other players will join in the elimination.A lot of time they do it before voting. On the other hand, I could just be paranoid which for me is very possible.

Hm... why did you only bring that up for Nep, then? Lenora was pretty vocal at being a newbie too.

[Maduisha]

DK didn't answer my question and I'm not sure if on purpose or not. I don't like being ignored, hm...

Well, I'll let it be until Lenora and DK come back.

[Maduisha]

DK didn't answer my question and I'm not sure if on purpose or not. I don't like being ignored, hm...

Well, I'll let it be until Lenora and DK come back.

What were the questions?
I skimmed when i came back

Just this one:

Koba, can you talk to me about your feels on Chumbo? Zulfy seems to have an opposite opinion to yours, so maybe we can get something interesting out of this.

I was waiting to see if you ignored it on purpose because you wanted an answer from Lenora first for whatever reason, but seems like I was anticipating wrong.

[Maduisha]

I wouldn't call him noob because he clearly has experience for years and stuff. The only thing pinging me kinda weird is that he refuses to explain whether he has a read on Fuzzy or not, but Chumbo already pressed on that matter.

[Maduisha]

Sorry having a rough time posting.
What's the dichotomy between standing out and genuine thought process for? I see that sort of thing specifically as an effort to blend in

I see. What I was asking was if you thought he was being genuine/natural or trying to stand out/draw attention as to not look lurky. I guess I worded poorly, but the intention was more like "do you believe the thought process behind the drunk posts, or do they seem fake to you?"

I thought it looked like pretty towny and just natural skimming and commenting on what drew his attention, when referring to the comments he made and the posts he decided to quote. But the big orange warning saying "hey, I'm drunk" felt slightly over the top and would play on the attention drawing aspect that says "I'm here." Granted I have never played with him before, but I'm used to drunk people just commenting on it rather than putting colorful disclaimers at the top of each of their posts, lol.

I'm a little torn on that, probably looking into it too much because I don't know exactly what to look at in this game so far.

[Maduisha]

Hey all! I had an unexpectedly busy day today, but I'm here all caught up. I see we have Clidd in the game now, and that makes me pretty excited because he has been present in almost all the games I played. Welcome!

Now, down to business:

maduisha what is your gun to head read on zulfy

Right now I'm not seeing that wagon much because I loved the way he interacted with me by questioning what was the meaning of my question instead of picking one of the two options I offered him, so that pinged me in a positive way. Like, if he had no actual opinion of Chumbo's slot, it could've been easier for him to do that instead, so that looked natural to me. In short, GtH I think he is on the townier side, with the only exception of him witholding the Chumbo slot read for seemingly no reason? He could've just said he suspected them both and it wouldn't have tanked his credibility, in my opinion.

Still might lend my vote if you guys want more pressure, but I'm not really seeing it.

[Maduisha]

Right now I feel Lenora, Clidd, Zulfy, and Umlaut are probably town.

Nep was giving me town vibes when they were playing, but it has been *checks activity overview* 2 days and 23h since the last time they posted here, so I'd like more activity on that slot?

Fuzzy null for lack of activity + still hasn't asked my question about inconsistency. DK null because I still don't know how to read them but I think their posts look pretty spontanous so far. Ben still null because I've seen natural takes but also "activity post" kinda behavior, so I still don't know.

There's no incentive to vote Nep right now because they're probably not going to respond, so I'm gonna count votes and place mine in the null pile, I think.

[Maduisha]

Alright, should be 3 votes which is E-2?

VOTE: TheFuzzylogic99

[Maduisha]

And something that I also don't understand is that you start with a vote on Fuzzy and then start talking/slow pushing another slot that you are suspecting (?).

I want to say it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense for scum!Zulfy to do this if Zulfy and Fuzzy are partners, because attention was not on Fuzzy at the time + he provided no argument for the Fuzzy push so it was not really early bus or anything...? As in, it doesn't even bring distancing with a discussion of any kind that would get people to maybe read one of them as town, it didn't spark anything. I'd say if it was a co-ordinated effort of some kind between two scum, it wouldn't look like this:

Spoiler:

VOTE: TheFuzzylogic99

Ok just saw Zulify post.... He might of been another player I ran into but I dont remember playing with him before

what did you see Zulify post

[Maduisha]

Yeah, I'm not seeing the Zulfy wagon either but I don't wanna fully discredit it in case there's compelling argument.

Either way, we need to bring Nep's slot back into the thread because a missing player always makes the PoE a little harder than it needs to be.

[Maduisha]

It's been a while, Miss Maduisha.

Our unique past experience together left me with some internal scars, but I'm happy to see you again. You seem to have changed since the last time I saw you, in a good way. I would appreciate seeing you in future games, as you are a pleasant company to have.

Aw, thank you. I'm glad to have you around as well, I really enjoy your presence too. I'm actually ashamed due to my performance in my last game because I was too confbiased and ended up pushing two innocent people a bit too much, and townreading scum all game. Pretty bad I have to say, and it reminded me of that last game you and me played together in which I pushed you due to bad reads, so I might not have "changed for good" as much as you think, but I'm trying my best not to tunnel due to confirmation bias again and try to contribute to push what the majority want if people don't agree with my reads, instead of insisting I am right like I've done recently.

Ok, so these are the pictures in my mind rn:

TheFuzzylogic99

- Scummy projection;
- Lack of participation;

Zulfy

- Wavy progression;
- Bad tone;
- Ilogical compatibility of partnership with Fuzzy, if Fuzzy is scum;

Umlaut

- Towny questioning instance on the veracity of lenora's newbie position.
- Good faith.

ben dover123

- Good takes;
- Towny by tone;
- Transparent progression;

Maduisha

- Good tales;
- Towny by tone;
- Transparent progression;

DkKoba

- No idea;

lenora

- No idea;

nepenthe

- Not sure, but can be a potential partner of scum!Fuzzy by PoE compared to Dk/Lenora.
- Lack of scumhunting;

I want to ask you about the Lenora nullread because I thought her voting of DK was on the townier side regardless of DK's actual alignment. These posts are what I'm talking about:

Spoiler:

UNVOTE: Dkkoba
getting town vibes from how far koba is pushing their read on nepenthe.

could you explain this a bit more? i don't really see it. i keep re-reading nepenthe's opening posts to find the self-consciousness, but to me it just looks like nepenthe is considering different peoples strategies vs. how he himself approaches the game and that he's aware of his own weaknesses. dk then jumped to a read/assumption really fast. i'm know my reads will probably be rusty in this game as it's been quite a bit, so it's helpful to me when people can walk through their reasoning in case i'm missing something

UNVOTE: Dkkoba
getting town vibes from how far koba is pushing their read on nepenthe.

could you explain this a bit more? i don't really see it. i keep re-reading nepenthe's opening posts to find the self-consciousness, but to me it just looks like nepenthe is considering different peoples strategies vs. how he himself approaches the game and that he's aware of his own weaknesses. dk then jumped to a read/assumption really fast. i'm know my reads will probably be rusty in this game as it's been quite a bit, so it's helpful to me when people can walk through their reasoning in case i'm missing something

Yeah I'm not completely sure on Koba's attack on nepenthe either but I feel like Koba's motivation to be this aggressive with their read on nepenthe is towny. Just trying to get every last reaction and AI material from nepenthe, that's what I see.

i saw it as a bit OTT/performative - i'd maybe feel differently if they re-evaluated from it or if I saw the test on nepenthe as useful, but i'm getting the sense that koba is struggling to explain their reads/reasons

VOTE: dkkoba

I liked her skepticism she showed about Ben's townread of DK (she did not sheep, she did not back off immediately), I think it denotes authenticity of thought due to her questioning of it, and she was also trying to open a wagon based on more than just gut feel as an alternative to the Zulfy wagon that was building up at that moment. I would only have a worse opinion of Lenora if Zulfy were to be scum, because in that scenario she might have tried to derail his wagon, but I think that's rather unlikely considering that she did not jump wagons to Fuzzy's which is the current alternative wagon to Zulfy's, after seeing that her DK push didn't gain any traction. As in, I don't think she's trying to save Zulfy by pushing DK and I think her DK read is genuine as a result.

[Maduisha]

Hm, well... I might be focusing too much in asociatives of scum!Zulfy scenario...

A bit stupid from me to be getting lost in thought about that considering it's D1.

[Maduisha]

Also...

@Mod, I don't wanna be annoying, but isn't this worth a prod?

D1 only has 2 days 16 hours left at the time of writing this post, the end of day might get impacted if Nepenthe/their replacement has to catch up and take a hasty last minute stance.

[Maduisha]

I think your takes so far have been logically good, Maduisha, and your approach to the game seems to have changed. You are more perceptive of the events around you, which is a positive sign. There was an evolution in your mindset.

In relation to Lenora, your observation about the genuity of a possible town!Lenora seems persuasive, but I'm trying to limit myself before seeing the slot as town atm. The reason is that if she were a newbie and we were in a newbie game, I would probably see the behavior that you pointed out as difficult to be simulated by a newbie!Scum mindset, but considering this is a normal game, it is very easy for her to be an alt of a regular player engaging in a newbie narrative to stay off the radar (as scum), or has some other particular goal to act in such way (like testing a different playstyle, as town), but in both scenarios I don’t mean to underestimate the slot, especially since I don’t know who she is. I need to see more of her interactions with the game to be more confident about my accuracy of read on her, whether town or scum.

Hm, I see, I hadn't considered the possibility of alt accounts. Well, I understand that you want to continue the evaluation of the slot and especially not townread based on newbie behavior, but a part of what I pointed out before has to do with the way she approached DK's slot rather than the newbie posting, so I would like to know if you found it towny too or if I'm alone in this.

Lenora-
I do not like how she is just going along to get along in 128 144 and 225. She pretty much agreeing with the players she is addressing and not adding much else. Not sure if she is just coasting town or coasting here. 129 is bad .To me it very much feel likes she is trying to earn town points. The only real thing that is reading town to me is her push for more info on DK.

So you think she's coasting as either alignment, and trying to earn town points. Do you scumread her? Do you have any suspicions that would earn your vote?

177 reads very much reads as scum wondering if the replacement will make or push for him or me.

I can see what you mean by this, but at the time of Clidd's entrance you were already building up as alternative wagon to his (because he was pushing you and Clidd's slot), so I saw it more as Zulfy trying to find out whether his read of Chumbo as potentially scum with you was correct by poking Chumbo's replacement with questions about you.

[Maduisha]

Honestly I feel like this game has been way too smooth for only 10 pages. Something feels off but I can't nail exactly what is off.
Still not getting why people think Zulfy is scum. Clidd's analysis is a nice touch but I'm not feeling it.

Like I feel like the "distribution of pressure" thing isn't really necessarily scummy on it's own and I wanted to give Zulfy more time to see how this "distribution of pressure" would develop and his intentions with it. Still not 100% sure where he is going with this pressure and I'm much better off with my vote on Fuzzy so I'll keep on watching.

As I said before it was an attempt to not give up all of my stakes when applying pressure. I was asked if Fuzzy was my other scum read when I mentioned my envelope, I didn't want to make it clear whether or not he was an RVS vote or not right away, I wanted to be able to apply pressure to others.
Vote Fuzzy

I just found this and I'm not exactly sure if I like this stance that Zulfy is taking. Like now it's slowly turning into a "setting up targets" feel that I really dislike.

I'm not exactly sure what to think of these Ben posts read together. At first I thought he was coinciding with me in that Zulfy is kinda fishy but not necessarily scum, but now the accusation about him setting up others as targets is worrying me, because the player Zulfy is supposedly "setting up" is the current leading wagon, and I'm wondering if Ben is just re-evaluating the slot because the game state doesn't make much sense to him, or because he's actually slowly trying to pivot off from Fuzzy for other reasons.

[Maduisha]

i feel like this is so much talking to express a simple idea, which i usually think is scum indicative. town is generally way more to the point, as they don't have to try too hard to look like they're contributing whereas it's in maf's best interest to maximize everything so it looks like they have "content" and are proactive. i call bluff.

If you check Clidd's profile, you will see that Clidd tends to make posts on the lenghtier side as town pretty often, so I would say "a lot of talking" is NAI when talking about Clidd.

oh also, chumbo's entrance into the game with a joke feels good to me in that i think town is usually less concerned w/ how they enter a game versus mafia being too aware of what they're saying and how they might be perceived in early game so i really like that and am inclined to townread it. koba's slot - sorry to refer to it as koba's slot, just unsure of who has it now (i know someone does, i'm just lazy/forgetful) - pointed out that chumbo had "town vibes" which i think is a valid read obviously but i was wary of them not explaining it combined with the very lackluster/underwhelming response to my early push so i'm wary of that slot right now.

You thought Clidd's posting was bluffy in the previous quote, but you're talking about Chumbo's slot saying he feels townier and you're inclined to townread. Now, they are not the same person and thus they don't play the game the same way, but their slot is the same. Are you townreading Clidd based on Chumbo's early game, or does your instinct about Clidd bluffing weigh more in your opinion about the slot?

[Maduisha]

Welcome, Cabd. I look forward to see what your impressions of the current gamestate are when you are done catching up.

Right now I feel like Nepenthe is a little confused about who replaces who, so I'm not sure if I can read much until that stuff is clarified. As for Fuzzy, I feel like he has poured the effort to read through the thread and it shows in the way he complimented the commentaries with links to the posts he refers to when commenting them. I liked that, but it's becoming a little hard to read a slot that mostly posts on weekends.

[Maduisha]

So, aside from what Umlaut pointed out that is a bit inconsistent with what you're accusing him of, Cabd, I want to ask you about this:

Hi Ben.

I am not currently wanting to go into too much detail.

Ben has already been annoyed that you don't want to share how you got those reads. If I understood correctly, you're caught up with the game, right? If so, you would know people reacted poorly to Zulfy concealing read related information with no explanation given, yet you're doing it too. Why is that? Do you want to see if you gather the same reaction as him?

Temporarily hiding reasons why you're scumreading someone can make sense if you are waiting for them to make a similar mistake a second time, but not wanting to talk about the townreads you're calling "town core" is a slight bit concerning and it makes me wonder what's the motive behind that move. So, I will ask you, what's the town-motivation of calling XYZ people town and not backing it up with your opinion?

Also, a side note: limiting yourself to 10 posts a day after explaining in detail how your scumgame consists of filling the thread with 9 pages of your posts feels like "look, I'm not in my scum meta", which pings me. But the fact that you labeled it a tangent and hided it with a spoiler tag as not to clog the thread makes me feel a bit better about it because it denotes not wanting to bring too much attention into it, so I don't know what to make out of it. Probably NAI stuff and I'm looking too much into it...

[Maduisha]

Hmm, I'd help you pressure with a vote, but I still want to see what Nep has to say about his discrepancy between Clidd being "scummy" and "bluffing", yet townreading Chumbo when he was still there.

I feel like my vote is more useful by mantaining pressure on Fuzzy for now, too. Especially considering Ben has expressed intention of abandoning the wagon twice already, even if he hasn't moved yet. My main concern right now is how short of a D1 deadline we have left, with Fuzzy being partially unavailable.

[Maduisha]

I guess my counter question is why do you think I WOULD care about doing something that got Zulfy attention?

I don't know, and that's why I wanted to find out. The only conclusions I can reach in the hypothetical case that

it was

deliberate would be that you want to test out whether the reactions towards Zulfy were genuine from the people that reacted like that (if they don't when seeing the same thing a second time, it could mean they didn't care as much about it and more about shading Zulfy) which could be more townsided, or that you want to detract attention from the 2 ongoing wagons, which could be more scumsided.

[Maduisha]

@Cabd, do you have any takeaways from the question you asked me? Do you see my point of view?

[Maduisha]

D1 ends in 11h...

There are multiple idle people + Zulfy has been gone for 3 days and a half...

This game has been pretty weird so far.

[Maduisha]

I'm not sure if Fuzzy + Cabd work as a scum pair imo and I have some seeds of doubt in my head about Fuzzy being scum here, but I understand where you are coming from.

Yeah, I don't wanna get lost into scumpair theorycrafting considering there are 0 flips to work with and I've already got lost thinking about scum!Zulfy scumpair scenarios, but something about how nitpicky Cabd's post was in 304 combined with Fuzzy's response waving it away made me feel that they're unlikely together. Cabd was already comfortably pushing Umlaut even if nobody else voted with him, scum!Cabd has no reason to push scum!Fuzzy in a nitpicky way when the majority of players suspected him already for other reasons that are agreed on. And if it were to be orchestrated to make scum!Cabd look townier for "catching scum", I think that Fuzzy wouldn't have just "canceled" Cabd's argument by saying "that was not what I meant by being active."

I see no scenario in which this is SvS and benefits them in any way. I really shouldn't be speaking like this pre-flips, but that's what my gut is telling me.

[Maduisha]

important bit

• Day: Day 1: 10 days, Day 2+: 7 days, Night: 48 hours.

Day 1 started on January 17 so it should end on January 27.

Oh, I was going by the timer that is ticking down that is sticked to the last official votecount.

[Maduisha]

I thought the game would be closed when I checked today, because I went to sleep around 8h before the supposed deadline. Seems Umlaut and Ben were right about which one of the two were the valid deadline, so that's good news. I've caught up with what happened last night, so I will:

UNVOTE:

That being done, I believe Fuzzy's slot could be up for re-evaluation depending on what happens after the night phase, but I buy it for now as precaution measure.

I believe Nepenthe still hasn't fully caught up, so I will wait still, but I would like for him to answer my question about what's his read on Clidd's slot, since he seems to be reading Chumbo and Clidd as opposite alignments at the same time, but they're one and the same slot, so that's confusing.

[Maduisha]

Assuming Fuzzy's claim is real, his interaction with Cabd is looking more solidly TvT. I was up for pressuring Cabd earlier when he clashed with Umlaut, but recent posts are giving me authenticity vibes. I like how he kept the tangent talk with Clidd going despite the way I approached that section of his posts earlier on, which means he is not uncomfortable doing that even knowing how it can be seen from outside (so, there's no sign of feeling "caught" in a strategy, that's good).

So if Fuzzy is town...

Cabd, Lenora, Clidd, Umlaut are probably town...

Which leaves me Ben, Zulfy and Nep (both of which I thought were townier previously but due to inactivity I'm reconsidering). From those three, I believe Nepenthe could bring more context for the stuff he has been reading about Clidd and explain a bit why is Cabd an option for him. Ben I don't have trouble with his logic so far, but the swingy behavior before Fuzzy's claim was pinging me a bit. Clidd said that's natural for Ben, so I'm trying not to jump at that. Still having a bit of trouble reading him. And Zulfy I'd be least interested in eliminating this turn because I actually think he's the townier of the three I'd be okay with voting, but I'm willing to compromise and vote him if that's what the majority want as to not to obstruct. I still would rather not because of what I said of him before, but I understand short posts and long inactivity periods are concerning.

[Maduisha]

Okay, I got ignored again so I will try one last time.

Nepenthe, you made this post:

Spoiler:

i feel like this is so much talking to express a simple idea, which i usually think is

scum indicative

. town is generally way more to the point, as they don't have to try too hard to look like they're contributing whereas it's in maf's best interest to maximize everything so it looks like they have "content" and are proactive.

i call bluff

.

Then you wrote this other post afterwards:

Spoiler:

oh also, chumbo's entrance into the game with a joke feels good to me in that i think town is usually less concerned w/ how they enter a game versus mafia being too aware of what they're saying and how they might be perceived in early game so i really like that and

am inclined to townread it

.

I want to know how does the Chumbo read affect your read on Clidd's slot, because you're reading the same slot twice in page 11.

[Maduisha]

also worth noting, i feel like pushing on me because i liked chumbo's entrance versus not liking clidd is just a lazy thing that scum can easily latch onto when it's actually not the big contradictory mindtrap people want to set it up as. some people are capable of having good entrances as either alignment, chumbo's did and it felt genuine. do you guys want me to ignore the fact that i don't townread the new person in the slot because the old person in the slot arguably had a better entrance to the game? c'mon now. let's think.

It's not a contradiction because they're different people with different playstyles. I think I noted that down in one of the posts in which I addressed you about it, but it's interesting you think people "want to set it up as a contradictory mindtrap." If you have such suspicions, why are you still voting Clidd instead of Ben or me that pushed you about this?

Regardless, my question about this whole deal was how does the Chumbo townread affect your read of Clidd. I'm asking this because Clidd and Chumbo don't exist in a vacuum, they both saw the same role pm and you read them in two different alignments, which means you're wrong about one of the reads, so that's something to reflect on. And I'm not insisting on this point because of thinking you can't townread scum and then realize they're scum afterwards; I'm well aware that's a possibility, and it happened to me in my last game as well. I just want you to tell us which of the two reads you think is more likely to be wrong, and how do both of the reads mesh together in your mind.

[Maduisha]

VOTE: Nepenthe

I think I'm actually going to place this here for pressure, I really want you to elaborate on your thoughts. And I believe a little back and forth could help us understand each other, if you are willing to engage with me here.

[Maduisha]

I don't wish to derail the Zulfy wagon if that's what people want at the end of the day, I'm willing to pivot there if this doesn't work out.

[Maduisha]

VOTE: Nepenthe

I think I'm actually going to place this here for pressure, I really want you to elaborate on your thoughts. And I believe a little back and forth could help us understand each other, if you are willing to engage with me here.

It's a bit late in the day to vote someone "for pressure," isn't it? Especially when you say that's what it's for. I don't believe I would feel any pressure at all from a vote like that.

Nah, not at all! I was pressuring for him to engage with me specifically, not to threaten to hunt him down. I wouldn't have made 450 otherwise, it makes no sense. I felt he addressed the topic but explicitly avoided my points, so I wanted to make sure to be able to sort my issues with Nep before the night phase started.

also worth noting, i feel like pushing on me because i liked chumbo's entrance versus not liking clidd is just a lazy thing that scum can easily latch onto when it's actually not the big contradictory mindtrap people want to set it up as.

some people are capable of having good entrances as either alignment, chumbo's did and it felt genuine. do you guys want me to ignore the fact that i don't townread the new person in the slot because the old person in the slot arguably had a better entrance to the game?

c'mon now. let's think.

It's not a contradiction because they're different people with different playstyles. I think I noted that down in one of the posts in which I addressed you about it, but it's interesting you think people "want to set it up as a contradictory mindtrap." If you have such suspicions, why are you still voting Clidd instead of Ben or me that pushed you about this?

Regardless, my question about this whole deal was how does the Chumbo townread affect your read of Clidd. I'm asking this because Clidd and Chumbo don't exist in a vacuum, they both saw the same role pm and you read them in two different alignments, which means you're wrong about one of the reads, so that's something to reflect on. And I'm not insisting on this point because of thinking you can't townread scum and then realize they're scum afterwards; I'm well aware that's a possibility, and it happened to me in my last game as well. I just want you to tell us which of the two reads you think is more likely to be wrong, and how do both of the reads mesh together in your mind.

i feel like i already answered this and i really hate repeating myself - again, apologies if that's blunt but it's a text based game where you can always filter and reread me if there's something i've already expanded on, and i've definitely expanded on this. if it helps, i bolded exactly what i think is the answer to your question.

VOTE: Nepenthe

I think I'm actually going to place this here for pressure, I really want you to elaborate on your thoughts. And I believe a little back and forth could help us understand each other, if you are willing to engage with me here.

this probably sounds stubborn and i don't mean for it to, but i townread you so there's no real reason for me to push myself to engage with you further if i feel good about the read. you're welcome to vote me, i'm not really someone who responds to pressure and certainly not at the final hour.

I get not wanting to repeat yourself (I hate that too, it's kinda the reason why I voted you for engagement pressure, I felt like I was repeating my concern and getting skimmed over), and I read what you have highlighted, don't worry. So, what you are saying is that despite having an early townread of Clidd's slot, you think your scumread of the current user overrides the impressions you got from Chumbo, correct? I want you to confirm that:

a) You don't "clean the slate" when people replace into a slot.
b) You now reread Chumbo's entrance and

can

see it as scum making an effort to blend in.

That's the way I can understand your logic and I want to know if I'm wrong. You can just answer yes/no to avoid repeating yourself, but it would be helpful for my understanding of the way you play if you do so.

---

I wanted to address those things first so they don't get drowned due to the current madness.

@Cabd, if your role is as powerful as you describe it to be, why did you think it was worth it to reveal a 2 (3?) function PR here? I'm at a loss for words because we can't know if scum can neuter your self protective abilities, and also we might have outed 2 investigative PRs day 1. Fuzzy wasn't in "untouchable" status at all, he could have been re-evaluated day 2 if he didn't die at night...

[Maduisha]

I think cc are good. The only CC that should never happen is someone with investigational roles or protective roles. For example cops, doctors bodyguard. The exception being vanilla cop, neo cops, or such role. Roles where there another more powerful /useful variant likely to be in play, For example, there is likely an alignment cop in play so my death would be minimalized.

I was about to quote this to ask why scum!Fuzzy would explicitly invite counterclaims when Cabd was saying we probably shouldn't (because setup spec was likely not to work properly) but come to think of it this is a really weird thing to say. Aside from the whole thing being a bit confusing (what exactly is he saying would or would not be a valid counterclaim?) why should Fuzzy be expecting a counterclaim at all, when anyone who makes a serious cc ought to be scum from his perspective?

What I mean is, it reads as if Fuzzy is talking to a hypothetical town player who might actually be able to CC him, whereas town!Fuzzy ought to believe no such player exists

I assumed he was talking about counter claims being good in general (because Cabds asked nobody to cc). The exception part I can understand ("lesser" roles feel alright to trade for a scum elimination). The last bit is a bit weird, I agree... is he implying he "can" die to a neo cc because another investigative might be in the game so it's fine...?

I hadn't picked up on that before.

[Maduisha]

The only way I can work that logic is "it's fine if they cc me, they die the next day for lying." But it would only make sense if it means he is not willing to fight to get the liar eliminated instead...

@Fuzzy please address this whenever you come back.

[Maduisha]

I will vote wherever the majority does, but I still want to hear Fuzzy out if possible because of that confusing cc argument of his that is confusing me in terms of the logic that went through his mind when he typed it the way he did. It's giving me bad vibes combined with Cabd's role existing as I'm not used to PR heavy games or role type overlapping.

I don't really scumread Zulfy, but he's in my pool of weakest reads right now, so if it ends up being like that, I will support it.

I'd like the y/n answers from Nepenthe before the D1 turn ends, too...

[Maduisha]

I asked to be CC because I know my role and I believe that there is no role out there that goes against it.. I guess it all depends on how many VT out there.

I can't understand this bit, can you rephrase it...

(Also, Cabd might be using a Medea profile picture, but he uses male pronouns according to profile.)

[Maduisha]

Thank you for answering. Now I think I understand your logic a bit better and why the drastic change happened, given that you supposedly had already drawn AI material from the slot, and the usual policy that I've seen is that it's not good to completely discard your initial read in case of replacement, I was having my doubts about if it made sense. I also really wanted a statement about your usual handling of replacements because I was under the impression that perhaps that one was being singled out in a way that was worrying me, but with that information now I can better assess your upcoming interactions with the two replaced slots. With that worry being out of the picture, I think can more comfortably rule out certain possibilities moving onwards.

Also, I imagine you're going to comment on the current claim discussion soon, and I would like to hear your opinion on Cabd and Fuzzy's claims. Especially because you're voting Clidd at the moment, since I don't think anyone is sold on that wagon yet and we have yet to decide EoD elimination.

[Maduisha]

It's almost midnight in Spain. Should I place the vote in the common consensus slot now and put him at E-1, or should I wait? I should be able to visit the thread in the morning before work still.

[Maduisha]

Alright, I trust no lulhammer will happen before he is able to claim.

VOTE: Zulfy

E-1.

Good night, guys.

[Maduisha]

Uuh 5h remaining and Zulfy is nowhere to be seen for claiming purposes... this doesn't bode well...

Fuzzy's stuff I tried reading, but I'm not sure I understand the thing about JOAT being a cc to his role, or how that was a town gambit to fluster him, my head is spinning little.

I have to leave for work now, but I think I'll still be able to come back again before deadline. Hopefully Zulfy has claimed by then, I'm not used to people getting eliminated without a chance to claim first, but no elim is just bad...

[Maduisha]

We'd all have to be here to pivot onto someone else to avoid a no-elimination, that's why it's not feasible...

Still, him not even bothering to claim at all is weird as either alignment... but a part of me feels like scum!Zulfy would at least try a fake claim to cause havoc...

[Maduisha]

Alright, not what I expected either.

So uh, if I understood correctly, Fuzzy can tell us whether Max is vanilla or not (with town PR and mafia showing as "not vanilla" regardless of alignment), while Cabd has an innocent result at hand. I'd say Cabd revealing who he got an innocent on is the best move here, while Fuzzy's result I would say is more tricky because we'd be narrowing the setup for scum if he is not faking it.

[Maduisha]

Your role was very inactive yesterday. I had a theory and wanted to see if my theory was likely.

...and what was this theory?

I want to hear about this too. What about Lenora getting prodded and replaced makes you want to check for PR there?

[Maduisha]

Actually, wouldn't it have been more logical for Fuzzy to check whether Cabd was actually PR or lying, considering he made posts like this:

Maybe I am wrong but Cabd's claim seems like a bluff or a gambit atp . if that is true I dont know if that makes him town or scum. I would lean town as it would be a wierd gambit /bluff coming town. His action does not seem to match up with what one would expect from a player with that role. I guess he could be a JOAT but I have my doubts atm.

VOTE: TheFuzzylogic99

Why did you think an inactive slot was worth spending your action on instead of a player you were calling out for bluffing like this?

[Maduisha]

...No, absolutely not. Checking a slot that is an assumed counter claim is a waste of time, 100%. Especially given neapolitan powers, the likely result is that ghe confirms that the claimed power role is not a VT, which tells you xactly nothing about their alignment. I have a feeling I'm going to be annoyed at his theory for checking me regardless, but that's poor reasoning for a vote.

(I've skimmed enough to know what the claims are, but am reading from the start right now, still in the early game)

I was saying this in vein that he was supposedly paranoid of Cabd's claim being a gambit, and in the post I quoted he explicitly said he is not sure if that comes from town or scum. Regardless of his investigation not giving him alignment information, I thought it would be relevant to his logic about "Cabd is lying" to check whether he is or not. The fact that he didn't makes me feel he was not exactly genuine about his concern about Cabd.

Also, I don't think JOAT is counter claim to neapolitan, is it? There was chatter about counterclaims going on, but I don't think they're roles that can't coexist.

So uh, if I understood correctly, Fuzzy can tell us whether Max is vanilla or not (with town PR and mafia showing as "not vanilla" regardless of alignment), while Cabd has an innocent result at hand. I'd say Cabd revealing who he got an innocent on is the best move here, while Fuzzy's result I would say is more tricky because we'd be narrowing the setup for scum if he is not faking it.

Not quite. Fuzzy's (purportedly) a Neapolitan, so he gets a result of "Vanilla Townie" or "not Vanilla Townie." Your followup in 576 makes more sense given that you mistakenly thought Fuzzy could have possibly expected a vanilla result on Cabd, and I don't actually have a problem with voting Fuzzy in itself, but I don't think that's a good reason.

I kind of think this mistake makes you more town but then I already thought you were at least >rand town.

Why is it a "mistake"? I don't really see it. He was pushing the idea that Cabd was bluffing, so it only makes sense wanting to test out if his idea was true. He basically just told us "Hey I think Cabd is not really JOAT, anyway I just tested Lenora's slot instead." Like, I'm aware he'd still get "not VT" if Cabd were to be scum PR, but I don't think scum PR fakeclaims unprompted D1 and risks losing their night action if they get cc'd/eliminated for it. And Fuzzy was telling us "this is a bluff" which if he believes Cabd is town, it makes no sense to signal to us that Cabd might be bluffing (in the case Cabd truly was VT baiting the NK). And if he thinks Cabd is just a goon willing to play the gambit, it makes no sense in my head not to check the slot he is supposedly paranoid of being lying + being scum.

[Maduisha]

I really look forward to the "theory" that justifies checking Lenora/Maxwell slot instead of Cabd, because I feel that "theory" was thrown as a buzzword.

The only reason I think I would be fine with would be if he found crumbing from Lenora and wanted to check in case she was "vanilla" and tried to claim her crumb, but the reason he gave Maxwell was "she was very inactive" and I think that won't have anything to do with crumbs or anything that makes actual sense for his role usage, lol.

[Maduisha]

Aah, I feel I'm getting a bit biased because many people argued against my point... so it's not just scum pushing against me. That means I'm either wrong or explaining myself really poorly.

I hope I did a better job now. It's not that I was not aware that he'd get the same result for town PR and scum PR, I already accounted for that. I was taught that when you want to test how realistic your ideas are, you should try to disprove yourself to find reasons why it might not work out and you're actually wrong. So, it was already in my mind. I just don't think it's realistic to claim to be paranoid of someone while having the tool to at least check on half their lie, and go for someone else entirely.

[Maduisha]

I did think about checking Cadb last night, I did not for 3x reason
1) I didn't want to push the issue....
A lot of time I overthink an issue and I begin to tunnel ideas that sometimes makes zero sense. I figured the best course for me was to take break from the Cabd thing and rethink about it on day 2. If I investigated I felt like I would be feeding my paranoia. I was kind of hoping that scum would target Cabd and it would be blocked if her claim was true or killed if she was bluffing. Whoever scum is very likely believed her claims as they went someplace else for the kill IMHO.
2) The town is TR her atp
The best I could get would be a VT which would only prove that she was doing a reaction test. The worst is I would get a not VT which would say she either has a PR or scum. Giving her claim it did not seem that
checking her would really clear or help sort her slot. Neither it would change anyone reads/ In short.... despite my thought on her claim checking her would not help town
3) It would be better to go for someone that was on the edge and see if they were VT.
I thought his role might be either a PR or scum that was lurking. I don't know the player and as I said I try not to go on meta so I dont know if it was something they likely to do. Also if I was wrong then I would hit a VT and would help clear a slot.

1) I think this segment is fair, but I want you to explain the part that says "I was kind of hoping that scum would target Cabd and it would be blocked if her claim was true", because I'm not exactly making sense of the phrase.

2) Do you think being able to corroborate that it was a reaction test or NK bait is not valuable? I've seen games crumble because of town fakeclaims.

3) You said you had a "theory" about Lenora. Was it that she was PR because she was inactive...? Nepenthe was inactive too, and you didn't consider him either according to your words describing your decision process. Why is that?

[Maduisha]

Strongly inclined to think fuzzy's the legitimate claim, his play as I'm seeing it makes sense for him, some of it might not make sense to others but I don't see him claiming the way he did as scum and his attempts to analyze peopl felt believable, by comparison his recent scumgame had not much depth of thought overall. By contrast see a lot of scum motivation Cabd's claim and thought he + koba were quite scummy overall.

I want to hear what are your reasons in favor to town!Fuzzy as opposed to town!Cabd. I know you just replaced in, so events aren't in the same pace for you than for the rest of us, but as a reminder, Fuzzy claimed out of being put at E-1, while Cabd claimed unprompted, which is a lot riskier to do as scum, imo.

If Cabd is scum I think the most likely partner is Maduisha, were a few things when I was reading I didn't like but this is sort of a gut feeling. Could also see nepenthe as scum though as I feel he's been super underwhelming, but had a slight sense that may have been strong belief in his clidd push even if I think it's really wrong.

This is gonna sound like I'm butthurt that you're scumreading me, but I would like to know what are the things that gave you that gut feeling. I think getting scumread and pushed by someone at least lets me get a good idea of who's behind the push and the mentality behind it, so I would like it if you explained to me the things that make you feel I'm scummy.

[Maduisha]

And yeah, I think Fuzzy is scummy, but even then I have to agree with him that Maxwell could've given a yes/no instead of outing which PR he has. Ah, well, none of the investigatives got blocked, so maybe it's not so bad that Max outed.

Anyway, the massclaim is inevitable at this point: I'm VT.

[Maduisha]

Alright so we got:

Cabd - Cop.
Maxwell - Doctor.
Umlaut - Friendly neighbour.
Fuzzy - Neopolitan cop.

Does 4 PR make sense in a 9 people game? I come from playing exclusively newbie queue where there are usually only 2.

Maduisha-
I could only confirm if Cabd was a VT or not. If scum attacked Cabd then two things would happen
a) she would survive proving that she had self-protection and her claim was true ( I did not think about a doc being in play bc I dont see many games with a doc in the setup or atleast not the ones I played in)
b) she would die and her flip would confirm she was lying and her role
I was hoping for a because it was the best outcome for town as there would be a NK and the role would be confirmed.

2) Honestly i did not consider it. Maybe I was being a bit short-sided here

3) I actually considered Nepethe as well. I thought it was implied but maybe I was just unclear. It was a coin flip (metaphorically) . I could of just as easily chosen Nepethe. They bing inactive made them harder to read so I thought maybe I could help sort. There was no deep thought beyond this as far as the choice.

So, what you're saying is that you were hoping for no-kill, in which case it meant scum decided to gamble with Cabd's supposed "self protection", or expecting that he'd wind up dead otherwise. So, you thought it was more likely than not that they would target Cabd, so you went for someone else to use your role...

I guess it makes some sense if you thought scum would not buy into the wifom and actually thought he was bluffing.

[Maduisha]

For Maduisha, this is not particularly a strong read but I'm somewhat building off the assumption of Cabd-scum and the early koba-nepenthe interactions make them less likely to be aligned. This isn't infallible, though, and I can't say nepenthe on play has been strongly town - I get a sense that their push on clidd might be something they sincerely believe, but overall he's been underwhelming is notably avoiding the thread. If I[m wrong on fuzzy I think he is the only person who really makes sense as a partner

Maduisha dose give me vibes of being a bit safe, lot of questioning people, but not strong pushes, this is just a feeling though, I don't have a full scumcase, mainly POE and associations. This post in particular did set me off a little, though:

As for Fuzzy, I feel like he has poured the effort to read through the thread and it shows in the way he complimented the commentaries with links to the posts he refers to when commenting them. I liked that, but it's becoming a little hard to read a slot that mostly posts on weekends.

Although I I felt the posts there from fuzzy were town, the way she explains it bothers me - he's

putting in the effort to read the thread

? And it's shown by

putting in links

? But he's hard to read because he posts at a particular time. The whole thing was very strange and awkward to me, it felt like a fake read, with little concern to actually interact with what he was saying.

But this isn't a full-blown scumcase, I wouldn't vote Maduisha today, think voting between investigative claims is the way to go.

Well, I was gonna say at least now that Clidd has been confirmed to be town, Nepenthe has to grab a different narrative that would allow you to read him some more, but he's getting replaced, so the slot's mindshift is going to happen, anyway.

And about the Fuzzy thing, it's a bit the same as last time. Events look different when you're reading it all in bulk than when read in real time, I guess. I thought it was a possitive thing that he was bothering to actually read the thread and participate (he was being rather inactive and made just a couple of posts that set people to think he was lurkscum). At the time he said he was really busy but that he would try his best. The links he put down refer to the specific posts he was commenting on, which gave me good vibes, because it demonstrates that he is indeed reading and trying to be active in the capacity that he can. I find it's easier for scum to paraphrase things that have been said/piggyback on what other people are talking about to give their opinion instead of actually looking into stuff themselves, so that's why.

The weekend remark was in the vein of "it's harder to read a slot that barely stops by." He is showing up a lot more recently, which I'm grateful for regardless of his alignment, if he is truly busy then he's doing his best for the sake of game quality.

[Maduisha]

I don't think I'm gonna join that Cabd train simply because I don't think scum!Cabd would claim PR completely unprompted because he'd open himself to counter claim D1 when he was absolutely not endangered that day + he would throw away his JOAT cover. As scum, I don't think he has any reason to stop pretending to be JOAT. In fact, I think it'd give him a perfect reason to be alive for a couple of turns due to supposed wifom done to scum + supposed self protection powers.

[Maduisha]

Why would he expect a counter claim when fuzzy had already claimed as town investigative? There would be little reason to expect further counters, I don't buy this reasoning at all, entire motive here as scum is to provide justification for a miselimination on town, where otherwise fuzzy would be unvotable by virtue of his claim. The cover is a play that superficially looks fancy and therefore makes people assume it's town but feels largely like smoke and mirrors to me, the flash is mainly served to make him look good and have an explanation for why mafia didn't just NK him, don't buy the timing of his claim in the first place as townie

and this is of course eliding the main point that cop investigating a townread player like clidd makes no sense from a town perspective but makes plenty of sense from the perspective of scum who doesn't want to hand the town too much information by outing a report . However much you may disagree with fuzzy's "theory" behind his investigation, it makes sense with how he spoke about lenora on day 1.

I agree it's weird that he checked Clidd instead of one of his scumreads (or Fuzzy, whom most people were weighing on D1), however I will insist as I said before that it makes no sense for scum!him to claim JOAT with undisclosed powers, and then "downgrade" himself to cop under no pressure to do so either, at the point that he did. As scum, the JOAT cover gives him so much more room to manipulate what happened during the night, get himself a reason to be alive due to self protection abilities, while at the same time having the ace up the sleeve of being able to fake a guilty/innocent result in the late stages of the game.

About the counters, I'm not an expert on role balance because I haven't played many games before (and modded none), but a cop that can only check if you're vanilla or not would give room for another kind of investigative for town. Cabd was not the spotlight D1, he had no reason to put a target on his forehead if Fuzzy is town, as there could possibly be another investigative.

[Maduisha]

Neighborizer is basically a neutral role, if town it's a slight impediment to fuzzy's role in that it's another role he receives a non-VT result on.

Actually, doesn't this play more into scum!Fuzzy scenario? A town player with a role (Umlaut) specifically designed to fuck with another town player's role (Fuzzy)...

But if Umlaut's role is made to make scum think they hit cop/doctor/other heavy PR, only to murder a 1-shot FN, wouldn't it make more sense for a balanced gameboard for Fuzzy's role to belong to scum?

[Maduisha]

Welcome to the game, Samantha! Do you have some spare, ahem, Mora that I could borrow? (I'm sorry.)

ok hi I'm caught up

There is no way the setup has a cop

and

a doctor

and

scum didn't block or kill you last night. I'd sooner believe a second investigative than I would that.

That was my mindset as I was reading the end of day 1; I knew right away they were lying about joat, and my cynicism made me see it through the lens of them excusing mafia choosing someone else to kill. The counter argument to that is that they have to survive more than just that night and they claimed regular cop now, but then that "why would I do that?" argument can also be used as a shield by mafia. The nightkill pool was always going to be one of cabd/clidd/bendover based on everyone's station at the end of that day.

I'm glad bendover was nked though because that makes this day a lot simpler

there's 7 people alive and everyone is roleclaimed, and since I know I'm town the only logical thing to do today is to VOTE: maduisha

process of elimination should make tomorrow simple too

I can't blame you for the PoE vote, that's a normal thing to do. What you are trying to say is with the rest of your message is that you think Cabd is scum through intuition and that the remaining one is me through PoE, correct? (I didn't get much sleep last night, sorry if I'm misunderstanding).

[Maduisha]

Right now what is in my head is that we're actually better off eliminating outside of [Cabd, Max], because if Cabd really is town, they don't want to leave Cabd alive to get another clear/possibly a guilty. But with a doctor around (assuming Max to be town too), they probably have to shoot Max before they can get to Cabd at all (if we can convince Max to protect Cabd). If they shoot Max, we have one more turn of Cabd investigation. So, I believe Max's slot will sort itself during the night phase, if we trust that Cabd is town.

I guess I'm really trying to seriously avoid considering scum!Cabd scenario for the sake of my sanity, the way he claimed is just not scum in my mind. I haven't had much sleep, so my logic might not be too good right now. Someone please let me know if it makes sense to leave both of them alone for today, I think it's a good move, but I understand it relies heavily in trusting Cabd is town and I understand that might be controversial for others that don't share my view on his moves during D1.

[Maduisha]

I'm not sure why you think Cabd wouldn't do that as scum. He won a game with 4/5 scums without losing a single partner (a clean win). I would share your view if I was underestimating his ability as scum (which is not the case).

Regarding leaving the two investigators alive, assuming there is a scum between them, and making Max (assuming his claim is true) target Cabd, it will basically make the scumteam kill me to keep the atmosphere of doubt about the claims on D3 (where it will be worse to solve, since it will be elo/lylo and town can't miss). Scum!Cabd can just fake-guilty then on someone (probably Max) and that's it.

Not saying that Cabd is scum, but ignoring/not solving both cop claims today (and Max's claim), is not a good play imo.

I was proposing not eliminating Maxwell or Cabd. I'm still okay eliminating Fuzzy.

[Maduisha]

I'm not sure why you think Cabd wouldn't do that as scum. He won a game with 4/5 scums without losing a single partner (a clean win). I would share your view if I was underestimating his ability as scum (which is not the case).

I'm not underestimating scum!Cabd, I'm not saying he wouldn't "dare" to do that, as I haven't played with him before. I'm just still thinking it's an illogical step for scum to take.

I might be eating my words in the postgame, but I really believe it makes no sense from scum perspective.

[Maduisha]

Right now what is in my head is that we're actually better off eliminating outside of [Cabd, Max], because if Cabd really is town, they don't want to leave Cabd alive to get another clear/possibly a guilty. But with a doctor around (assuming Max to be town too), they probably have to shoot Max before they can get to Cabd at all (if we can convince Max to protect Cabd). If they shoot Max, we have one more turn of Cabd investigation. So, I believe Max's slot will sort itself during the night phase, if we trust that Cabd is town.

I guess I'm really trying to seriously avoid considering scum!Cabd scenario for the sake of my sanity, the way he claimed is just not scum in my mind. I haven't had much sleep, so my logic might not be too good right now. Someone please let me know if it makes sense to leave both of them alone for today, I think it's a good move, but I understand it relies heavily in trusting Cabd is town and I understand that might be controversial for others that don't share my view on his moves during D1.

This just comes across as visibly fencesitting. Both of us are quite convinced the other is scum, and you're talking about letting night actions resolve us instead of just using the elimination, ignoring completely the scenario where one of us is scum and you're faced with a 50/50 tomorrow, with nothing learned from it.

Do you actually, truly believe we are both town? Then who is the scum team, in your opinion?

What's fence sitting about anything I said? I assumed both town for the sake of the example. I don't actually know.

From my point of view, Cabd and Clidd are strongly town, and I firmly believe Fuzzy's role belongs more in a scum side than town, so that's where I want to vote today. I proposed this because I believe information could be gained if both Cabd and you are left alone, unless Cabd is scum and outs a fake guilty. But I strongly believe he's not.

So, from my point of view the scum team is Fuzzy + ???. And the empty space is someone that is fake claiming, or the newest replacement. As I don't have any leads so far on the partner, and people want to eliminate one of the claimed PR to sort stuff out, I'd rather eliminate the "lesser cop" if we truly were to be wrong about the NK. I understand why other people would not share my view, but I don't understand why are you calling me out for fencesitting.

[Maduisha]

Just because you

believe

it doesn't make it so, pretty sure Neapolitans are townsided more often than not and his play pretty clearl doesn't make sense from a scum perspective.

So, from my point of view the scum team is Fuzzy + ???. And the empty space is someone that is fake claiming, or the newest replacement. As I don't have any leads so far on the partner, and people want to eliminate one of the claimed PR to sort stuff out, I'd rather eliminate the "lesser cop" if we truly were to be wrong about the NK. I understand why other people would not share my view, but I don't understand why are you calling me out for fencesitting.

There are only 7 people left alive, you're flagrantly avoiding trying to scumhunt or make a conclusion here. It should not be hard to take some sort of stance, at all. Are you seriously proposing that fuzzy and nepenthe's slot are teamed? He is voting them. His response to me pushing on Cabd was to say something to the effect of, "I dont want to vote a cop, let's vote nepenthe". You realize from his position this would be bussing into autoloss? There's absolutely no way a rational player could actually think fuzzy and nepenthe are teamed here.

No, I'm not say Samantha *has* to be scum, I'm saying she could be. Umlaut could be, you could be as well. Since your slot can be understood through other means, I thought it'd make sense to eliminate Fuzzy and then look into Umlaut and Samantha. I thought Umlaut was pretty towny, but apparently his role is not like a friendly neighbour as I thought and Clidd can't confirm for him even though they are neighbours now. And Samantha will hopefully bring more AI material before EoD.

Fuzzy doesn't want to get into voting out PRs for whatever reason. He did not consider you or Umlaut as possibility outside of Cabd and that pinged me as well. Before I push you or Umlaut, I would rather confirm if the basis of my thinking is correct, so I want to flip Fuzzy.

[Maduisha]

Honestly, we can agree or disagree on an opinion and you can trash my reads, go against my proposal, or anything else you'd see fitting, but claiming I'm not trying to scumhunt or solve as a whole simply because you don't agree with my way to solve is in bad taste and upsetting. I won't tell you how to play because I don't have any right to, but I'd appreciate not having my efforts to understand the game handwoven simply because our mindsets don't meld together.

[Maduisha]

TBF it is weird that Cabd investigated Clidd instead of me since i was the number 1 suspect yesterday.

Part of me thinks that it was that she was paranoid and wanted to make sure Clidd was town

since he was TR by almost everyone. The other is i might be wrong and for some reason and Cabd is fake claiming.

Dude, you even phrase it like you came up with the reason through intuition, when Cabd already stated why:

Spoiler:

I feel like it's fairly obvious why I checked Clidd. He's essentially my own play style but not in my slot... I know exactly how dangerous it is to town read that effort, and that the play style snows towns hard. SO if I lived, getting to KNOW he is town and can know all work we do together is genuine? That's rad.

He is a townread.

I don't see cop as always something you hero play with trying to get a guilty. I see it as a way to remove paranoia from the board about players you think could be capable of getting past you extremely well.

[Maduisha]

No, actually, accusing me of this because I'm pointing out your deliberate avoidance of taking any sort of stance is in extremely bad taste. You're resorting to emotional manipulation because I called you on your behavior. In the very post before this, you straddle multiple fences at the same time: Oh, samantha could be scum, I could be scum, Umlaut could be scum, you're refusing to take a stance on half the slots in the game, it shouldn't be this hard to give some sort of attempt at a read on people, avoiding the subject like this is incredibly scummy

How can you actually say this when I have clearly taken a stance in all this pretty clearly...? Have you read what I just sent you? I think Cabd is town. I think Fuzzy is scummier than you and I'd rather eliminate there and gather information from NK to further establish the order in which PoE should take place according to what happens. The only reason why I explicitly stated that those slots

could

be scum partners of Fuzzy is because you misrepresented what I was trying to say by implying I think Samantha+Fuzzy is a must for the scum team, when it was not true at all because the only confirmed town is Clidd and the deceased. I thought I didn't have to state the obvious -> you push me to state the obvious -> you tell me I'm being scummy for clarifying that I'm still considering other slots outside of Clidd (conf town) and Cabd (practically conf town). I don't even know what are you on about anymore.

I thought I would get to understand your slot more if we had back and forth, but it's proving to be the opposite. Also, with regards to emotion: there are two things that are NAI about me, those are anger and activity. I occasionally get angry at people as either alignment, and I post daily as either alignment as well. So make of that what you will, I won't make you read my other games to view my behavior, but it is what it is.

[Maduisha]

I openly talked about my PoE being open to options... but okay... I don't wish to continue this anymore either...

I'll just take a break before my blood boils. I'm ashamed of replying from anger like I always do because it detracts from game quality and admittedly I'm letting my mood from real life issues add to my existing frustration here. If people agree with you, then I have no problem being the elimination to narrow the PoE, which is what ultimately matters.

[Maduisha]

I'm having trouble thinking about this game today.

VOTE: Sam

Can we just do this today and hold off on the PRs? If we assume exactly one of {Cabd, Fuzzy, maxwell} is scum and one of {me, clidd, Maduisha, samantha} is scum (and I do assume that), then honestly I'm much more confident about who is the scum in the latter group.

Isn't this what I proposed yesterday? Yes, I'm okay with doing that if nobody is willing to hop onto the Fuzzy wagon with me. I'm okay with voting Samantha, you, or even myself if it helps narrowing the PoE, even though I would rather not because I know I'm town.

[Maduisha]

I had been considering the possibility of scum!Max trying to eliminate Cabd during the day phase because he's a cop, and scum!Max wouldn't be able to afford to kill him at night and be alive the next day if the confirmed town were to call for Cabd's protection. However, I have come to the conclusion that the fact that he has been pushing me while advocating to eliminate Cabd this turn means he is most likely to be town. The reason for that is that I don't sense an agenda behind the pushes he is doing on me, even if I don't agree with the motives he has brought. If I assume Cabd is town (practically guaranteed to be true), it makes no sense for scum!Max to push me for a lined up miselimination based on an associative read, since scum!Max would already know Cabd's and my alignments, and that it wouldn't work out. As a result, the only three possible scenarios for that behavior are as follows:

- Max is scum with Cabd and they're busing (I would discard it altogether because they both claimed strong PR + they have no reason to bus in this gamestate).
- Max is scum but doesn't actually plan to push me once town!Cabd flips and this whole push is just an act to distract us from his partner.
- Max is town and his reads are genuine.

Out of those, I believe the third one makes the most sense, as it would be harder to reposition as scum if his main scumread dies + secondary scumread is unfeasible, since I believe a big part of the reason he's pushing me this hard is because I'm stubborn about not eliminating his scumread. Adding to that that scum!Max would be in a bad position being alive D3 as a doctor, I don't believe the pushes Max made during D2 are coming from scum.

That leaves me:

Fuzzy + Umlaut
Fuzzy + Samantha
Umlaut + Samantha

Out of those, I would eliminate in the order of Fuzzy>Samantha>Umlaut. But since people are not wanting to push Fuzzy with me, I think I will be lending Clidd my vote (with his consent), if we can agree to leave Cabd and Max alone. In my previous game, one of the best players said I was more useful when I was acting as a double vote for another player, and perhaps it holds true in this game too.

[Maduisha]

maduisha is more process of elimination than reading them as anything, but in general I'm suspicious of a "I'll support you guys lynching me if it'll help uwu" sentiment

PoE SR is understandable, as I feel the same about you. The last bit is whatever. I already had a long discussion with an user called Lucky Luciano on that matter in Newbie 1995.

If you don't wanna bother reading, the TL;DR is that if your trust your team mate's PoE, and you're a controversial piece of the gameboard (assuming scum!Cabd leads to scum!Maduisha for Max, for example), it can be helpful to offer yourself in order to reduce wifom and paranoia, as it is a team game. In this case, I trust the capacity of those I think are strongly town this game to take the correct step towards victory with the information gained from elimination flip and night actions of the PRs on the next day.

I wouldn't expect a PR to do that, but as VT I'm expendable, especially if the alternative is possibly eliminating the town cop.

[Maduisha]

(Linking that game is painful, because I acted very toxic towards the end and basically threw the game out of confirmation bias. I am very ashamed of what transpired there, but I thought those segments were relevant.)

[Maduisha]

Thank you for taking my offer, I believe in your ability to sort the rest!

VOTE: Maduisha

I was worried because I will be busy tomorrow due to an important event in my job for most of the day, but if we can settle this today then I won't have to be.

[Maduisha]

Wait, I thought you agreed with what I said about me going where you went today?

[Maduisha]

Somehow I thought "the plan" referred to what I proposed to do earlier, lol.

Anyway, I wouldn't know what to say that I hadn't already said. I think it's most likely Samantha and Fuzzy. Umlaut is theoretically a possibility, but like... I've never seen a neighbourizer before, but it sounds like a town role. And Cabd and Max I've determined are town already, Cabd because of the claim related stuff, and Max because the only way I can see Max playing the way he did here if he's scum with Cabd??? And there's no way both scums claimed strong PR and got no cc.

[Maduisha]

I'm finally back from work. I'm exhausted because it was an important event and I had to be on my heels almost all day, but I will be reading soon.

[Maduisha]

Lol, if I was scum with her I would've hammered you when I had the chance

This is a bit convoluted because there's a bunch of people that had the chance to hammer me or Samantha last night (including me and Samantha who could've hammered the other at different points, lol). I don't think it's indicative of anything. I don't think you're scum, but yeah.

[Maduisha]

I'm also singularly the reason why she's being considered as scum at all, do you really think I derail a wagon on you to potentially bus into autoloss when my partner is being generally townread? That would be not only rude but incredibly stupid. I don't understand how that's a real thought you could have.

^
And this is another argument why Max is town. Him pushing Cabds while trying to push me on the side is bad for scum once Cabd flips town, because they're taking away shade from me whom they could've tried to miseliminate. And scum!Max with me makes no sense because doctor claim scum loses immediately without a partner, so Max can never bus from the very moment he claimed doctor (if Cabd is town (and Cabd can't be scum with Max unless the setup is bullshit)).

[Maduisha]

Ah, alright, I will unvote for the time being.

UNVOTE:

I don't think it was necessary because if someone wanted to hammer me, they would have already... I was gone for a long time because I needed to sleep + was busy for most of today and nobody wanted to do it, but alright.

[Maduisha]

Intent to hammer.....

Maduessa seems like frustrated scum then frustrated townie. I been and seen both and from my experience, it seems like she the former more than the latter. I know this is WIFOM but I think that my gut is right on this

will hammer when Clidd is ready

Who do you think is my partner? Since you're outing a SR now, might as well share your thoughts... why was scum!me frustrated, in your opinion? (I had been trying to control emotions ever since I acted bratty towards Max so I dunno where you got frustration from, so I'm curious as well.)

[Maduisha]

Uh... but it makes no sense for Maxwell to both claim doctor and try to bus when he's already suspected for the claim... I mean, he had a lot of options that were not me, and he went out of his way to change the wagon to me, lol. A scum!me + scum!Maxwell team loses right away since Cabd will investigate, and then it's done.

[Maduisha]

Uh... but it makes no sense for Maxwell to both claim doctor and try to bus when he's already suspected for the claim...

Spending the whole day saying you suspect a buddy when they are absolutely not anywhere near the chopping block, and then suddenly flipping that read around once it turns out they might actually get chopped, is not really busing though.

Again, he had a lot of options that would not put him into auto-loss if anyone had trigger happy fingers when I was at E-1 for a bunch of time. I don't know, this scenario doesn't make any sense in my head.

[Maduisha]

yeah I gaslit myself at the top of the page when I said I was wrong, because that only applied if you successfully got lynched

Look at this:

Official Vote Count

Maduisha

(3): samantha97, Maduisha, clidd

Not Voting

(4): maxwell, TheFuzzylogic99, Umlaut, Cabd

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

Deadline

: (expired on 2021-02-06 11:08:00)

It stayed like that for a looong time. It only took an impatient Fuzzy/Cabd/Umlaut for scum!Maxwell to enter autoloss in that proposed scenario. I don't really think this is a realistic approach.

[Maduisha]

Really, in which scenario does scum claim doctor, push his partner whom nobody wants to push before that, and let the wagon sit at E-1 for almost a whole day.

How does this make any sense...

[Maduisha]

also letting the wagon sit at e-1 was not in his power, as he wasn't voting on it

Yet he's being accused of derrailing now...? Definitely on his power but only when it fits the narrative, lol.

[Maduisha]

also letting the wagon sit at e-1 was not in his power, as he wasn't voting on it

Yet he's being accused of derrailing now...? Definitely on his power but only when it fits the narrative, lol.

This is still bugging me because there was nothing changing the situation from when "letting the wagon sit at e-1 was not in his power" and the moment he switched ideas and was called out for derrailing my wagon (and then "it was in his power"?). I don't understand the logic behind the reasoning and I feel Samantha felt trapped because she wants to link me to Max somehow, but she has yet to reconcile with the idea that the doctor is the one doing the things she's accusing him of...? Why would scum!Max pray to the clouds that someone doesn't hammer, and then decide to do something about it a whole day later?

Also, Clidd can come back in a couple of hours because his schedule is a mystery, but it's late in the night in Spain. I want to go to sleep but at the same time the deadline is at 4 am...

[Maduisha]

are you forgetting umlaut said he was derailing?

No, I'm saying you agreed with him when he said that. Unless my memory is garbage fromt he tiredness...

[Maduisha]

Uh... but it makes no sense for Maxwell to both claim doctor and try to bus when he's already suspected for the claim...

Spending the whole day saying you suspect a buddy when they are absolutely not anywhere near the chopping block, and then suddenly flipping that read around once it turns out they might actually get chopped, is not really busing though.

yeah I gaslit myself at the top of the page when I said I was wrong, because that only applied if you successfully got lynched

Did I assume wrong because I read them together...?

[Maduisha]

If Max is scum with me, he let his wincondition hang from a thin thread for 24h in which anyone could've cut the thread randomly...

I just don't know in which planet it makes any sense, really...

PEdit: Both Clidd and Max asked me not to self vote, so I unvoted a while ago.

[Maduisha]

Current votes are uh...

Clidd + Umlaut + you on me.

And Max on you.

And everyone else not votinh.

PEdit: I talked about him a while ago... he cannot be scum because his vote was on Cabd while pushing for me all day, and it made no sense as chain elimination from scum point of view. Assuming Cabd is town, that is. When Cabd flipped green, Max would look bad for leading a green flip that was

also

the town cop (the only person that can check on his doctor claim), and his other miselimination would be unlikely to succeed. So, his position can only come from town that is genuinely scumreading Cabd (whom I assume is town for reasons I explained a lot before already).

And I don't think they're scum together because then I'll have a wrestle match with Sirius about role distribution, and we all know who wins there.

[Maduisha]

I'll actually just go to sleep, I'm E-1 and there are enough people with the hammer in hand to ensure there's never a no-lim, and I don't think I can explain myself better if my reasoning was misunderstood before today.

VOTE: Samantha

Good night.