Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)
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TunnelVision Goon
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Hey everybody, Bauss here. Ill sign my posts with a 1, since I'm first to the party this round. Rank will be along in a couple days I suspect. Looks like we are past RVS so I'll just start in with the questions...
Saki, wassup with all the posts saying nothing and acting crazy? That your usual game? It's weak. Does it get better?
Who's played with Varsoon before? Seems very conversational, and has a friendly/buddying tone. Wondering if that is normal. Don't like it one bit. "Titus, is that Michael Jackson in your avatar? OMG, love him. Beat it, beat it, beat it, oh find some scum and beat it." Let's keep conversation focused on finding scum please, this isn't match.com.
Titus, I see a bunch of things in your posting/ playstyle that I feel are similar to mine. This will make my reads on you problematic/compromised. I shall defer to Number 2. But to be clear, my gut read is slight town on Titus.
Is there a strategy play in a game setup with an innocent child? Ive never played in one before, so I'm intrigued.
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TunnelVision Goon
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Lol. That Michael Jackson bit was a shot at humor. I guess I failed.In post 105, Titus wrote: @TunnelVision - Not Michael Jackson in my AV (at least I don't think so). I've never played with an innocent child either. I just play as if there's a non-existent sheriff who has confirmed the child as town. Also, if you have any questions, feel free to ask. Just because we have similar playstyles doesn't mean that you're prohibited from reading me.
And I'm not saying I won't engage, question or read you... but rather my reads (with respect to you) are compromised and should have an asterisk next to them. Its human nature to like, or react more favorably/positively to people who are similar in nature to oneself. So, if your style is like mine, and I think my style is awesome, I'm liable to think your style is awesome too, and then I'm going to fail at getting a good objective read on you and your content (which is not awesome.)
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TunnelVision Goon
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Contradictory/obfuscating posts Varsoon - I'm mobile so quoting is a pain but you say that using meta sucks or is stupid but in a previous post you say that every game you drop something that indicates your alignment (the allusion seemed to be that it is 100% effective.) What's the deal there? If meta isn't useful, how do you explain that this thing you drop is 100%? And if you can manage to explain that away... if this thing you drop is 100%, couldn't you just fudge it to falsify your alignment tell when it suits you? Why yes, yes you could.
Don't think I need Rank for this one:
Vote Varsoon
VoteMe - I'll outline the posts I was referring to when I get to a PC. Likely Monday.
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TunnelVision Goon
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TunnelVision Goon
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Well hell. I've got all types of problems with this double claim going on, but let me backtrack a bit and start my sorting here:
I voted for Varsoon because I thought he was sketchy and I didn't like some of the things I saw/inferred, some tone, and the self-contradictions he was posting. I backed off of him because I THOUGHT we had a Mason contingency vouching for him:
This was my first "tip":
Then I went back and overanalyzed this:In post 167, Vote Me wrote:I'll be V/LA (just from now until tomorrow), but I will say thatI am probably never voting Varsoon ever.
And thought... Hmmm... He used the word META 4 times, does that mean we have a 4 man mason crew? Meta x 4. Terrible odds for it, but that's the funny thing about odds. It seemed strange that he posted like that.In post 137, Varsoon wrote:@TunnelVision: Your first block of text is why I findmetaineffective. Because I have a controlled variable that gives away my alignment, I can change it at any time. It's ametaway of me causing trouble for people who rely on themeta. You probably wouldn't get it, since it might be toometafor you.
Then I saw this:
Thought to myself... VoteMe plus Paschendale subtly hinting/vouching for him? Alright, maybe, read and see...In post 176, Paschendale wrote: TunnelV (Hydra: Definitely not enough. Holding back andwtf is with the awful Varsoon vote?
Then THIS:
So I just assumed big Mason group and brought the "Hey, I get it" unvote:In post 182, Varsoon wrote:Well, I noticed it awhile ago, and I felt the best play was to not say anything about it. Now that other players are bringing it up and looking my way, I'd like to toss suspicion away for sure. It's probably not what you're thinking though, that's a bit overt.But, catching up and reading between the lines now from what has transpired since... it looks like I talked or snooped my way into a steaming pile of bullshit. So everybody in those quotes above, I'd love a damn explanation from:
VoteMe, why wouldn't you be voting for Varsoon ever?
Pasche, what was so awful about my Varsoon vote that you took the time to note it? (I know you're town, but you're like our guiding light so I paid special attention to that buried reference in your read list.)
Varsoon, were you just being a silly pain in the rear jerking around about your stupid self-appointed super meta tell variable that you control? (FYI, if you as a player control it, it can be manipulated as I stated when I initially started in on you.)
Also Varsoon, what the hell were you hinting at/talking about in 182
Also, Titus, what was this:In post 173, Titus wrote: I think I get this and it tells me a lot about the setup if accurate. I doubt you would be so aggressive in advertising as scum buddies.
What if they are both scum? Lynching either one lands the other one a spot as "confirmed town roleblocker." Ballsy, but possible. The personality of both seems either silly enough or subtly slick enough to give it a shot.In post 525, oriole wrote: Why isn't Varsoon pushing Saki harder then? Also, we haven't been close to lynching Saki since he claimed.
I REALLY don't like the Saki claim, begging for votes, the timing of it. I hate even more Varsoon's shenanigans. It seems pretty far fetched at this point, odds wise, that the game would be setup like this.-
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TunnelVision Goon
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Is this directed at me? If yes, read below:In post 566, Saki wrote:would reading me newbtown explain everything
No. Even a noob knows that scoring a power role doesn't mean you goad the population into putting you at L-1 just so you can tell everybody you got a power role and subsequently beg them to unvote. Maybe if you said you were new to "thinking" or to "using your brain." But I suspect you weren't born yesterday or that you didn't just fall off the turnip truck. WHY on D1 would you be DYING to reveal your sweet power role to everybody and make yourself a target? Please to be helping me understand the thought process behind the stunt you pulled?
If no:
Sorry. But I'd still like answers to the above. Thanks.-
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TunnelVision Goon
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First: How does claiming assist with taking down scum? It doesn't.In post 582, Saki wrote:TL;DR I was going to get lynched anyways might as well take down scum with me.
Second: I get that you didn't want to get lynched, but you weren't doing it to avoid lynch... You WANTED to claim. Why? What is the motivation for wanting to claim so bad? You couldve brought your a game, made a case against a scum all, lobbied for more time before lynch (we have lots of days before dayphase deadline. You had options that you didn't exhaust... You WANTED to claim.
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TunnelVision Goon
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Neither does yours. You didn't even try to cast doubt, or lynch Saki on anything else. You just rolled over and said "Um guys, I'm the real slim shady." You wanted to claim too, or at the very least draw heat. It started back with your comment about NoVote saying he wouldnt vote for you ever. You jumped right out and called attention to yourself. Why draw attention to yourself if you do have a power role? Total fail bro. If you're town, that maneuver cost us your role at the expense of MAYBE hanging scum (which you could've tried to do without claiming.)
Power role holders should guard their power not throw it away.
Also, sorry for typos and formatting... Ipad only tonight. If anything is unclear, please ask.
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TunnelVision Goon
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Scum going down to the chopping block sure does. They claim a power role to draw the actual role holder out or delay the lynch. If they're already going down for content/play/slips or whatever... That's the best thing a scum can do. Saki said "I was getting lynched fo sho", scum or town he seems to believe that... so, yes?In post 616, Glass wrote:
And scum wants to claim and potentially get CC'd?tunnel wrote: Second: I get that you didn't want to get lynched, but you weren't doing it to avoid lynch... You WANTED to claim. Why? What is the motivation for wanting to claim so bad? You couldve brought your a game, made a case against a scum all, lobbied for more time before lynch (we have lots of days before dayphase deadline. You had options that you didn't exhaust... You WANTED to claim.
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TunnelVision Goon
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Titus, please don't put words in my mouth or frame my position. We don't need a tie breaker, we just need answers and more dialogue.
What is this? I'd made like 5 or 6 posts, have barely done anything, and you putt me down squarely as town? That's bold. Wait, it's not quite as bold if you KNOW I'm town.In post 568, Titus wrote:I don't like Saki's followup but I'd put Tunnel as squarely town.?
Varsoon, I think you're more likely to be a scumball than Saki. The counterclaim thing seems like a calculated mafia play to get the real town roleblocker hung. I also think you have directly contradicted yourself and somebody said conversational/buddying Varsoon isn't town Varsoon (and you're so chatty bro, wassup.) Plus stuff I said earlier.-
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TunnelVision Goon
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Scum. Sit tight, I'm going to get to you shortly. Mafia loves to jump into an active interrogation and say, "Yeah, what he said. It's obvious, I saw it too." I can ride Saki on my own, don't need your help. Go back to that non-committal stuff you've been throwing around all game.In post 623, Glass wrote:
It's pretty clear that you wanted to claim by the fact that you:Saki wrote: What options I see none except the claim. I specifically said I didn't want to claim, too. Titus's L-2 vote is why I claimed, not because I wanted to claim.
1. Thought that you had to be L-1 to claim.
2. Was going to vote yourself to put yourself at L-1 so you could claim.
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TunnelVision Goon
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I don't give a crap about your meta. Meta is useless. You said it yourself. A player that is cognizant of their own meta can manipulate it any which way. You're selectively using meta to suit your needs. That's as scummy as it can get. I can point to a game where I played exactly like this as scum. I can show you another one where I played exactly like this as town.In post 630, Varsoon wrote:@Tunnel: My reason for counterclaiming was because I am the Roleblocker, and so if Saki is lying/scum, we caught a scum PR on D1. That's pretty good, regardless of the cost.
Also, if you think I have a consistent meta outside of what I control, try again.
Furthermore, on-site, chatty/nonsense Varsoon is town Varsoon. I can actually link you to Xenoblade Mafia, since it just ended. I died early in the game, flipped VT, and that was one where I was even chattier and proposed a gambit that would get at least two players modkilled.
I don't care about your history. I care about your actions. Your motivation. Consistency. You've got loopholes so big that I can fly a plane through them. Answer my questions about drawing attention. Why if you are a role holder do you want so much attention? Why are you trying to draw heat from scum if you are ACTUALLY a power role? That's the biggest rube move I've ever seen from a rube of your ruby rube rube.
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TunnelVision Goon
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Saki, actions speak louder than words. You wanted to claim, whether you said it or not. Except, you did say it. Now it's a mis-rep, fine. You still wanted to claim and you didn't try alternate routes. Explain why you wanted to claim?
Just like Varsoon needs to explain why he wanted attention. He turned something into nothing for no reason. When NoVote said "I'm never voting Varsoon", and Titus picked up on "The something that actually wasn't there"... Varsoon fed the notion. For no reason. None. No logic behind it.
I need answers to these questions, and neither of you have them. That's why I'm entertaining the notion that you are both scum.
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TunnelVision Goon
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Answer to question in bold above. Second paragraph. I already answered it. You fight. You look for scum. You buy time. You appeal to logic and reason. You say "Lynch me later, let's keep looking for scum for a bit since we have x days until deadline." You avoid telling everybody that you are a powerful special butterfly. You do everything you can. Instead... You did the opposite.In post 611, TunnelVision wrote:
First: How does claiming assist with taking down scum? It doesn't.In post 582, Saki wrote:TL;DR I was going to get lynched anyways might as well take down scum with me.
Second: I get that you didn't want to get lynched, but you weren't doing it to avoid lynch... You WANTED to claim. Why? What is the motivation for wanting to claim so bad? You couldve brought your a game, made a case against a scum all, lobbied for more time before lynch (we have lots of days before dayphase deadline. You had options that you didn't exhaust... You WANTED to claim.
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Ill death tunnel you both until you answer my questions. Whether you admit it or not, secretly or openly, deep down or just top of mind... You wanted to claim. That's fine. It's okay. Having a power role is cool and exciting. You were like Ron Burgundy without a camera and a newsroom... Just a message board. You were so excited about banging Veronica Corningstone that you couldn't wait to tell the whole world. It's okay. Tell us why.-
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TunnelVision Goon
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Hey man, don't misrepresent me. I don't tolerate that stuff. I'm not here to lynch either of you. I don't have a vote on either of you, nor am I crying to string up one of you over the other. Nice try to discredit me subtly though. Better luck next time.In post 660, Varsoon wrote:@tunnel: Funny that you came into the thread looking to exploit a lynch. Anywaaaay.
I originally wanted attention so I would come off as VI and wouldn't be a lynch target or NK.
Earlier, in-thread, I explained why explaining my methods would be pro-scum.
Admitting to town what I'm up to equates to admitting to scum as to what I'm up to.
So, yeah, if I don't live through the night, it's due to belligerent rubes like you.
I'm here because I want answers. I want to sort through this clusterbomb. There are gaping holes in both of your stories. Something doesn't add up. I'm pointing right at it, and you either can't see it or are trying to hide it.
You failed to answer my question in a way that satisfies my curiosity. Your answer fails the logic test, watch...
If you are being honest, and are the roleblocker: your drawing attention to yourself actually makes you a target for NK. It does not assist you in flying under the radar. You played directly into an opportunity to draw attention willingly and openly. You didn't even question NoVote's statement about never voting for you... Instead you took it and grabbed the spotlight with it. You could've said "What the hell are you talking about." instead you said, "Shhh, I'm important but I wouldnt have been so overt about it."
Logic fail. Answer fail.
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TunnelVision Goon
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My bad. Anchorman reference. I wasn't trying to be derogatory, just humorous.In post 665, Saki wrote:I also don't get that humorous (and/or derogatory) reference.
Try not to do that anymore it makes your posts harder to read.
Either way, I'm sorry.-
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TunnelVision Goon
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In post 656, TunnelVision wrote:Just like Varsoon needs to explain why he wanted attention. He turned something into nothing for no reason. When NoVote said "I'm never voting Varsoon", and Titus picked up on "The something that actually wasn't there"... Varsoon fed the notion.
Why did you want to attract attention to yourself and in doing so insinuate that you were a PR?
@Varsoon
Question above. Context quoted above.
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TunnelVision Goon
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I'm going to respectfully ask you to stop doing this/asking for it. These big reads lists from multiple people, in a game like this, makes the mafia's job much easier.In post 783, Varsoon wrote:Could you provide a reads-list, please? At least one line justifying each read.-
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VOTE: Varsoon
1) Contradicting yourself multiple times (you're a walking talking paradox)
2) Playing like you don't know about the game setup (comment about jailer role) but you counter claimed Saki's RB claim. Lie to me and tell me you didn't check the game setup before you counter claimed?
3) Subtly trying to throw me off you by mis-representing in 660
4) I feel pretty confident that Saki is town
5) Dominating the conversation (lots of posts), I don't see any real scum hunting. You've got a back door open to exit every argument that you seem to talk yourself into/out of.
6) Buddying, non game related content, conversational "let's be pals" tone.
7) Your attention seeking response to the suggestion of a Mason role, does not compute. Even if I believe your explanation 100%, I think you were setting yourself up for a role claim very early in the day phase. Action + town motivation don't match here.
8) Counter claiming against Saki should've been a fire and brimstone show. You were weak and left yourself a back door to escape, but you stated that you were claiming RB because somebody else claimed your role. Your action + town motivation don't match here.
9)PYSCHOBABBLE ALERT.... This gem:
Plus:In post 386, Varsoon wrote:Well, because I am Roleblocker.
Bold faced lying is tough. It's much easier to say, "I am roleblocker" than to say, "I am Town Roleblocker"... if you're mafia and lying about it. It's psychobabbleanalysis, but it's obvious. You did like 3 or 4 times. Then, this:In post 389, Varsoon wrote:Well, it's not a matter of lying to town. My Role PM says that I am a roleblocker.
Is it possible we're both Roleblockers?
See how you specify town roleblockers in this post? You didn't before that point. But in this post, you'reIn post 430, Varsoon wrote:So, if we're both town roleblockers, you eliminate a huge part of town's PR's with lynches?
Sounds like a bad plan.speculating"Ifwe are both town roleblockers" instead ofstating"I am a town roleblocker." Big difference psychologically. You failed the test. Write a "Meta Note" to yourself for next time, lie bolder.
Check out Saki's roleclaim:
Saki's responses, tone, choice of words, reactions... all jive with the profile we've witnessed from his play. His roleclaim? Bold and pure.In post 343, Saki wrote: I am the Town Roleblocker.
In one of those quotes above you also openly suggest that there is a possibility of another roleblocker. But see my point #2 (game setup ignorance) and point #1 (contradiction.)
10) You've played enough mafia, you're not a noob, so you lose the noob defense for the shenanigans.
11) You've been so cognizant of your meta, mentioning the difference between this and that, but refuting the usefulness of meta. Here's what really threw me... you set yourself up to play like your Village Idiot town game as mafia:
It gives you the ability to play like a town rube, and write it off as your typical town game, while masking your scumball role. (preview edit, lulz)In post 121, Varsoon wrote:Nacho once said my smoking-gun scum meta is playing a really safe and hardcore, methodical town while, as town, I play Village Idiot.
12) You're trying to follow somebody else into hanging Saki. You did it with me in 614. You did it with somebody else when they put pressure on Saki. I'll dig it out.
13) You did some fear-mongering about mislynching a town power role.
I have more, but these are the most compelling IMO.
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TunnelVision Goon
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My case is based on your actions, motivation, content, and some psychology. Neither of which denies or contradicts your competence or intelligence. You've inferred that on your own. In reality, I fear I gave you more credit than I should have:
I expected that a competent and intelligent player such as yourself would've read the intro posts from the mod, and looked at the game setup options. Especially somebody with a power role. Especially if you were considering a counter claim. I also expected that a smart and savvy player like you wouldn't have jeopardized his very important role on D1 for no real gain to the town. Because, let's look at where we are:
If you are right about Saki, and honestly a town role blocker... we have two outted power roles on D1 for no apparent gain to the town. You'll likely both be dead in short order. I have to believe we would be in a better situation if you hadn't claimed. Does that make sense at level 3 sir? If you're town and Saki is town, you severely gimped the town by claiming RB instead of checking the game setup first.
So which is it? Did I give you too much credit and you're actually a rube townie that couldn't be bothered to think through his moves and research the game setup before claiming?
Or did I give you the right amount of credit and you're scum making a very calculated and potentially high yielding maneuver?
My money is on scum, because I do respect and value your intelligence. And the majority of my case stands, despite your meta/levels/snark/arrogance.
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TunnelVision Goon
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Did you read the same post I wrote? Maybe you should read it again. Your post above shows that either I didn't communicate my observations clearly, or you just think I'm scum and therefore aren't giving them their due consideration.In post 826, Paschendale wrote:Tunnel's post is completely unconvincing. It's basically just saying that "town would phrase things the same way I would, so if you don't you must be scum." And all of that is to disguise the fact that his argument is actually just a PoE because he gives an unsubstantiated townread to Saki. But no, no evidence for Saki as town, just complaining that Varsoon is friendly and not angry enough. Nonsense.
Is not based on a PoE. There's several slips/tells/etc in Varsoons play that I've watched, noted, and highlighted. Saki's claim (and my town read) is just an add on, not a foundation of the case. There's nothing to disguise, no hidden agenda. I think the guy is scum and I shared why. You don't have to agree but don't restate my position incorrectly, dumb it down to the level you did, and call it nonsense.-
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TunnelVision Goon
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I feel like I'm on a different planet where logic and reason don't apply. Good grief.
Let's start here:
There's no slip or bad call, I think he's scum. That post was in response to him claiming that my case against him denied him "agency and intelligence." The reality is, I think he's smart. I think he's too smart to counter claim without looking at the game setup first. My IF statement is putting myself into the scenario he is selling (Saki and Varsoon both town) and testing the logic of his defense/argument... I don't believe him, I'm just looking at the scenario that he's painted for us. I'm pointing out that regardless of his alignment his play was anti-town and the conclusion is that because I think he's intelligent, he wouldn't have made that lousy play as a townie. Let me be more clear, and briefly illustrate the two scenarios (both assume that Saki is town):In post 872, CherryDrPepper wrote: This is just me but I think TunnelVision slipped or at least made a bad call.
First bolded indicates the phrase "If you were right", the next claims "my money is on scum". The problem here is that the if you were right part indicates that he doesnt think Varsoon is scum because scum dont need to be right about claims, theyre out for mislynches. Anyway, I think TV got more active around the time an easy wagon on Varsoon formed and while I havent been as active and I also thought Varsoon could be scum, I think Tunnel is someone we should look atIn post 812, TunnelVision wrote:
If you are right about Saki, and honestly a town role blocker...we have two outted power roles on D1 for no apparent gain to the town. You'll likely both be dead in short order. I have to believe we would be in a better situation if you hadn't claimed. Does that make sense at level 3 sir? If you're town and Saki is town, you severely gimped the town by claiming RB instead of checking the game setup first.
My money is on scum, because I do respect and value your intelligence. And the majority of my case stands, despite your meta/levels/snark/arrogance.
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1) Varsoon is town. He made what I believe to be an anti-town play by counterclaiming roleblocker without checking the game setup.
2) Varsoon is mafia. His roleclaim is a calculated anti-town play that has a number of potential plays/applications/risks/rewards. (This is the scenario that I believe to be true.)
My belief is that he's too smart for 1. The guy puts a lot of time into the game. Lots of posts, lots of thought, lots of theories... Understanding the game setup doesn't take much. He comfortable using numbers in his arguments, and the math for game setup options is quite simple and laid out neatly on that wiki page. Add on that people who seem to know him better than I also believe he's lying about game setup knowledge (Pasche in 842, I think somebody else said it too.) It just doesn't add up. It fails the logic test. I don't see how Town Varsoon could possible think that it was wise (and helpful to town) to counter claim without digging into the game setup (let alone trying other options if he really believed Saki was scum claiming a PR.) Quotes demonstrating that Varsoon's reason for CC'ing was because he didn't check game setup (because apparently I need to provide quotes to support everything I say):
In post 630, Varsoon wrote:@Tunnel: My reason for counterclaiming was because I am the Roleblocker, and so if Saki is lying/scum, we caught a scum PR on D1. That's pretty good, regardless of the cost.
The biggest part of his defense to logic based accusations is, "Guys, I'm playing scummy pretending to be a Village Idiot, so all that scummy stuff I've done was on purpose to help me find scum... because only the real scum will suspect that my scummy moves were because I am actually scum. But duh, I'm town. Why else would I act so scummy?" Really? Wow.In post 805, Varsoon wrote: 8) My town motivation for CC'ing RB is because I wasn't aware the setup could have two RBs in it for town. Furthermore, I [AM IN A GAME I CANT TALK ABOUT SO I WONT] have seen VTs claim PRs on D1, which is why I pulled back even harder. My current standing is that Saki is either a VT or is actually a town RB like I am.
Additional support for my case to follow shortly.
For those who've asked/mentioned, I've been the only TunnelVision hydra head to post thus far. Head 2 is on V/LA until tomorrow (which I clearly stated in post 235, but nobody seemed to read it/answer me.)
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TunnelVision Goon
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You really aren't reading are you? I started in on Varsoon very early in the game because right from the onset something didn't sit right with me. Hop on a wagon? I freaking started it because the guy's play doesn't add up and it's anti-town.In post 886, Paschendale wrote:A passionless attempt to hop on what looks like a likely wagon for extremely bad reasons that can be dismissed later on as "well he shouldn't have played so weird" in the event of a mislynch... scummy.
Look here:
I only unvoted because I thought you and VoteMe were subtly vouching for him, which I detailed here:In post 136, TunnelVision wrote:Contradictory/obfuscating posts Varsoon - I'm mobile so quoting is a pain but you say that using meta sucks or is stupid but in a previous post you say that every game you drop something that indicates your alignment (the allusion seemed to be that it is 100% effective.) What's the deal there? If meta isn't useful, how do you explain that this thing you drop is 100%? And if you can manage to explain that away... if this thing you drop is 100%, couldn't you just fudge it to falsify your alignment tell when it suits you? Why yes, yes you could.
Don't think I need Rank for this one:
Vote Varsoon
565
You didn't even answer the question I asked you directly in said post. Did you miss it because you're not reading, or consciously choose not to answer it?
Back to Varsoon's scuzzy behavior... You yourself told him to knock it off. Yeah, he shouldn't play so weird. But I think its a calculated maneuver. He set it up from the beginning. He talked all about his meta. He said he was playing VI. He basically told everybody what he was doing... don't you think if he was really doing it to catch scum he wouldn't have TOLD EVERYBODY EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING? He did it so he could point back and say, "I told you I was going to play like a goober. See? It's not scummy because I did it on purpose."
121 - which contradicts with 127
127 - which contradicts with 135
137 - which contradicts with 127
Passionless? Once I had some time to dig and prod, I laid into both Saki and Varsoon to get a better read. That's what I do. I apply heat. Go re-read that exchange. Look at how mad/frustrated they both got. When people get angry, frustrated, pressured... their true colors show. That's what I was looking for. Not a lynch at that point, I wanted answers. I got them. The answers said "Lynch Varsoon, Saki is town."
Look at the logic fail of Varsoon in that exchange...
692 contradicts
692 doesn't make any sense. How does drawing attention to yourself, and subtly suggesting that you are a PR protect you from NK? It doesn't. It only makes sense that he did that to setup a false PR claim later on. He could point back to it like it was a breadcrumb of some kind.In post 805, Varsoon wrote: 7) I felt pressured into a weird place when Titus not-so-subtly implied that I was a Mason with Vote-me. I should have just ignored him, but, really, it's whatever. Yeah, that was a shitty play on my part.
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Inherent risks of the Saki claim situation:In post 898, oriole wrote:OK. So what scum motive is behind scum-Varsoon counterclaiming Saki, then? (I'd like TV to answer this too).
(This actually addresses the p-edit a bit too)
D1, a town PR claims a role. That person doesn't get lynched. They are borderline confirmed town. They may be covered by a doctor, able to use their power nightly (in this case a roleblock.) If said player targets well, you make it hard for the mafia to thin the population. Could also start the foundation of a town bloc.
Some obvious potential rewards of a false counter claim:
Mafia can attempt any of the following (and some combinations of multiples):
1) Lynch Saki D1, and hang a town PR instead of NK. Win.
2) Let both claimed folks live for the day, mislynch some other townie.
3) Publicly coordinate some of the night moves, learn more about game setup by night info reveals from Saki. (if Saki lives.)
4) Prove roleblocker status (but not alignment), gain town cred for Varsoon
There are other options, but they revolve around additional game setup speculation.-
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@MOD, Please delete that post above. Wrong account. My apologies.
1) Zero. I think Varsoon is scum.In post 893, Titus wrote:@Tunnelvision - Read post 872 supposing the following propositions and rate the plausibility please.
1)Both Cherry and Varsoon are town.
2) Both Cherry and Varsoon are scum.
3) Varsoon only is scum.
4) Cherry only is scum.
2) Very low, I'd probably say Zero. They're both experienced players, I don't think Cherry would follow Varsoon's sacrifice bunt play by pushing an alternate wagon on me. Plus, let's face it... I always catch heat on D1. I don't mind it. And Cherrys argument against me in that post is based on a misunderstanding of what I said. Cherry also is a hydra, so there would be conversation and sharing before they made a play like pushing a wagon on me to divert off Varsoon. One head said "Tunnel makes sense, strong case" the other head said "Tunnel fail." I think they'd have taken the time to privately figure that out if they were scum. But as town, you operate under the premise of right and just, thereby you share openly and don't need to be as disciplined.
3) Most likely.
4) Zero, see number 1.-
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I'm not sheeping. I feel like I'm reading something I wrote every time you post. It's friggin terrible. I'll probably never play a game of mafia with you again.... Unless I play it on the third or fourth level and you stay on level one or two. Then I could play my role and pretend to be a village idiot pretending to be scum pretending to be a power role. That might work... But you'd lynch me on D1 for defying logic.In post 902, Titus wrote: Tunnel please answer the plausibility regarding Cherry/Varsoon. I'll give my thoughts after I just have to verify you're not sheeping me.
When number 2 gets here, he'll probably say "Number 1 huh? Your mom is number 1. For the love of god, somebody NK Titus... I can't stand 2 bauss's. And Pasche is right, we should lynch a lurker."
I'll bet good money on the above.
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Glass. Look back at my post to him. He completely failed to/avoided engaging. Lurker town would have fired right back, suspicious of me and pissed. Lurker scum said, "Shit, I'm going to avoid the death tunnel and let him rail away on Saki and Varsoon." Shady as hell. Plus he just jumped right into my active interrogation.In post 918, Titus wrote:Agreed, except for the whole Cherry thing. I think Cherry could be scum. However, if we keep thinkng the same way, expect the occasional paranoia test. You might want to give me one from time to time.
If you had to lynch a lurker who would you pick? I would pick VoteMe.
See also, the couple general observations in that same post. Paranoia test for you, since you asked, find specifics of what I was referring to with those observations? Or refute please.
Also, you don't get my jokes... So at least I still have that all to myself.
I want VoteMe to AnswerMe. I want to know wtf he meant and why.
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Varsoon, Saki's post at Pasche points out several things that Pasche has overlooked/missed or ignored. Points that are kinda important.
Pasche said you were lying about your knowledge of the game setup. You said you weren't. What's your response to his accusation?
Also, you said earlier that I think people can't be friends. Not true. You saw my joke, that was a chummy move on my part (glad you liked it.) I'm just the kinda guy that likes to hang his friends when they are scum.
Do me a favor though... make a proper case against me, as I made against you? All these votes on me, and nobody has laid out a reasonable explanation. I'm scummy because I think Varsoons play is anti town and scummy? Cherry thought he caught a slip, but I explained his misunderstanding away (correct me if I'm wrong.)-
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Pasche, you hear that? Varsoon really didn't read the game setup. What do you make of that? He's saying you're wrong.In post 934, Varsoon wrote:I'm not lying, I really didn't read the setup going into the game. I read it when Titus linked me it, though.
Well, TV, the fair and simple thing is that my case on you is largely OMGUS and rooted in seeing your jump onto my wagon out of lurking as an opportunity grabbing sort of effort. So, all in all, it's pretty weak outside of my own PoV. I'm hoping that by pushing your wagon, I can expose you as town/scum and get reactions out of a lot of other people in the game. I've milked the Saki vs Varsoon thing for about 20 pages, so I figured I'd shift gears and get as much content on the D1 table as possible.
You're a cooler guy than I give you credit, TV.
Varsoon, you forgot I jumped on you as soon as the game started. Then backed off because I thought you were a mason. Plus I have logic and reason on my side, a Titus mini-me, and another head. Go after somebody else?
Why don't you make a case against oriole? Look at him playing devils advocate about the case against you, almost defending you. If you're town, and he knows your town, can you see the scum play/motivation there? (For clarity I don't think Varsoon is town, nor do I think Oriole is scum. I'm giving Varsoon something productive to do.)
What about Titus implication that Cherry could be scummy? (again, I don't think Cherry is scummy.)
What about Titus being too town? Or reading my mind and posting my thoughts? Weird. Must be scummy. (I don't think she's scum)
Alright, enough silly stuff. I'm off for the night. Number 2 will be here tomorrow and hopefully with the boomstick.
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Lol. Its a paranoia test and you're failing. If I point to specific posts, it'll be easy. You think like me.In post 937, Titus wrote:@Tunnel - DO NOT SUPPOSE I WILL ALWAYS AGREE WITH YOU. I AM NOT YOUR MINI ME! GOT IT!
Also, you asked me a question about interpreting a conversation you had with Glass. What bloody posts are you talking about?
Dude only has 29 posts. Read the ISO and see if anything jumps out at you.-
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He's done that at least twice this game. Its meta though so its useless, but its 100% and he drops it every game.
Cherry, I agree on those two sentences. Its the same language nuance/framework of the lie he told when he role claimed. Bold faced lying is hard. (I made this point in my case against him.)
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Do you disagree with your other head about the case on Varsoon and/or the read on me? I'd like some answers from you or the other head regarding my response 891 to 872.In post 986, CherryDrPepper wrote:If you wanna lynch them, do so for reasons other than the claim.
-Sakura Hana
@Everybody against the Varsoon lynch:
Go read his Mafia QT for the Calvin + Hobbes game mentioned above:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/E9MxMvmZJ8Qwu
Look at how sharp and logical Varsoon's game play is. Look at his understanding and consideration of the game setup with the play calls his mafia team makes.
Now tell me you truly believe this guy is town here, and town Varsoon thought it wise to counter claim on D1 and out himself as a PR in a game setup that allows for multiple PR's of the same type. (I don't.)
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Well, we discussed this a bit earlier in the thread so my post there is referencing back to our earlier discussion with some sarcasm.In post 990, Xiao Long wrote:
If it's 100% and he drops it every game...why is it useless?In post 981, TunnelVision wrote: He's done that at least twice this game. Its meta though so its useless, but its 100% and he drops it every game.
Cherry, I agree on those two sentences. Its the same language nuance/framework of the lie he told when he role claimed. Bold faced lying is hard. (I made this point in my case against him.)
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To be perfectly clear:
Varsoon claims he does something in every game that indicates his alignment, 100%. He says he does it without fail and in every game. In the Calvin and Hobbes game post chat, we learn that Varsoon claims his alignment truthfully each game. In this game, he has on at least two occasions said he was scum. It would stand to reason, if we believe him and 100% of the time without fail he truthfully indicates his alignment, that he is scum in this game because he has said so.
HOWEVER, Varsoon controls that. He posts it. He could post "I'm town", or "I'm scum" and it would be an easy dupe if we believed him that it was 100% correct and without fail. My point is, it's useless because he controls it. It's not like the mod is saying "Varsoon is X." Varsoon is saying it, therefore we cannot trust it with any certainty.
TLDR, the fact that he says "I'm scum" in this game is purely fluff, and completely useless.-
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This is flawed logic. When we lynch Varsoon and he flips scum, your chances of survival go up dramatically. Mafia won't want to target you because if we have a doctor, you're a likely protection target. It also gives you some information about who you should block to reduce the chances of a successful mafia NK.In post 1001, Saki wrote:The only reason that I don't want to lynch Varsoon today is because him living into N1 means a greater chance for me to live to see D2.
All that said, we have several days left for this day phase, so we should not lynch Varsoon right this minute or in advance of the deadline. I will unvote to extend the dayphase if necessary. There are several lurkers (and my own second hydra head) that we need to hear from.
There are lots of other avenues for development.
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Well, imagine this turn of events...
Here's my opinion, TLDR: BuBye Varsoon.
I'm not quoting stuff he says, but here's some pieces of his argument and my opinions:
1) "Varsoon did all this as a trick to find scum" - False. Gambits such as these don't help actively identify scum. It might help you find some townies (see his read list info that he garnered.) But truth be told, if Varsoon is town, scum loves him for muddying up the game. They can sit back and watch the goofball just wreck townie efforts, and prevent us from real scum hunting. Anti-town at best.
2) "False claiming a PR can help town" - False. Town needs info. Reliable info. Not fake bs info to make decisions on. You divert town resources to protecting/watching you instead of the real role holders. It doesn't hurt the mafia, it gives them guidance and direction as to where night moves might go. Also, Varsoon just played a game as scum that was flawless, and two town boneheads false claimed PR's. How'd that work put for town? Terrible. Anti-town at best.
3) "Varsoon has done more work and developed more content than anybody" - False. He's mostly just generated a ton of useless posts, beating dead horses. It's alienated a few players (note his behavior contradicts his posting of a desire to get more people involved in the game.) it has substantially muddied the waters. It has taken time away from other players who might otherwise generate content. It's self-important (Sup Pasche), solo minded, and not team oriented. Varsoon knows this. Town wins as a team, not individually, and it requires all townies to develop reads and opinions of their own... Not follow the leader. Varsoon knows this. Bad play, might not be deliberately anti-town... But it is certainly anti-town.
4) "He breadcrumbed" - False. There's hints of a hundred different plays and gambits in his posts. I said earlier that he set himself up early on this game for a PR claim with that BS mason vibe we got and he exploited. He planned this false claim maneuver earlier as a Mafia strategy, not as a town strategy to get to the bottom of another person's claim. But a Null maneuver.
5) "Varsoon just had to know if Saki was telling the truth." - False. If he had truly been trying to deduce if Saki was town, he could've done it without lying, CC'ing, etc. (see the conversation I had with Saki.) Also a fake CC in a game with potentially multiples of the same role doesn't t add much heat on its own. If Varsoon was town, he's crafty enough to come up with better ways to test Saki's alignment. He's smart and experienced. There are lots of good ways to put pressure on somebody. Also, this approach by him assumes that nobody else could deduce Saki's alignment if it weren't for Varsoon (swoon.) Anti-town at best.
If I could have my way going forward, it would go like this: Varsoon please shush, we're going to hang you unless we stumble upon somebody scummier. Thanks for playing. If you're town (which I doubt), lesson learned for you the hard way. If you're scum (yep), good try. I look forward to playing another game with you though.
Everybody else, let's get down to business...
Oriole took a devils advocate position during this whole Varsoon mess. He's actually maintained a similar open minded position on everything, lots of opening doors' asking questions, but no really strong conclusions. Are you traditionally a softer player like this Oriole? I don't mean soft like weak, I just mean soft like open minded (not hard/stubborn/aggressive.) Neither is right or wrong, just a question.
Titus, would love to see you light up Cherry head DrPepper if he shows up and I'm not around. Pretend you're me... Should be fairly easy. Just bring a bit more aggression. (Did I miss your response to Dyslexicons question?)
Pasche, getting past your opinion on me and the lurkers... It's highly likely there is an active scum player. Any gut feelings on anybody else?
Flench, bust out a sweet list for us to work on for D2? Wagon/vote analysis of the Varsoon vote. Take note of the stall when he hit L2 twice. Do two iterations? One he flips scum, the other he flips town? I have a good reason for this, if you'll humor me.
Lurkers unite! Assume we are going to hang two of you. Duke it out. No holds barred. Stay and play or replace out. Also, nobody will hold it against you as there was plenty of wtfery on D1 here.
Saki, bring some new scum searching? I think you have good instincts but they're occasionally clouded... If I'm feeling clouded up, I like to pick points in the game and erase everything that happened before and try to develop new reads. There might be an opportunity to do that now if you think that'd be a useful tool to you.
I'll be MIA until late day tomorrow, so please don't lynch Varsoon yet. We need to make good use of the time we have left to develop useful content.-
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I think ditching back to the VT thing was a crafty play. You could see votes piling, nobody was buying the schtick, a couple of us weren't backing off... It keeps with your double negative style (Yo bro, way too scummy to be scum), you could point at it and say "I even undermined my cred" but what I don't get is why you didn't setup a harder/better breadcrumb earlier in the game. You could've snuck it in really early and pointed back to it. Would've been a much better backup plan.Varsoon wrote:I've argued my case about as much as I can.
If you want to ask me questions rather than explain how anti-town I am, please feel free to do so.
Also, I don't get the whole meta thing talking truthful about your alignment. You highlighted it, said you were scum, then even dropped the Calvin and Hobbes game on us. What good did that do you?
Also, that QT is deadly to your scum game, see if the Mod will bury it.
Dude... Teach me how to get Pasche to read my posts. He seemingly reads all your whargarbl but doesn't read any of mine. It's no good. Do I need to use the @ thingie, or be nice to him? (Hey Pasche, nice shoes. And have you lost weight? Wow, you haven't aged at all since last time I saw you.) Is he mad that I used a little ego? He'd flip his shit if I drove the inflated ego train rolling through here.In post 1080, Varsoon wrote:@Pasche: You, TV, and others, I believe.-
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Hello friends. Head two of TunnelVision here. My name is Rank. I just read all 53 pages of this thread today, and I have some things to say now.
Varsoon, if I could strangle you right now I would. Seriously. As I went through this thread all I wanted to do was to choke the life out of you with my hands. My other head, "-1-" (lol), agrees with me. This is good. I'm pretty exhausted after reading this thread, by the way. It's been completely insane.
Now that I've read the entire thread I'm going to go consult with my other head and discuss. I'm going to recommend (to everyone) that we hang either Cherry or Varsoon today. Frankly I don't care which, they are both scum.Flench: I initially read you as inexperienced. As I went through the thread I decided you were inexperienced scum, right up until you posted that handwritten list. It swung you pretty damn far into townieland. You've been drifting around there ever since.
JMO: It's scum, I hope we hang it soon, but don't want to hang it first. There are scummier.
Bulbazak: I liked the way Glass was playing right up until he stopped posting, but after looking back briefly I'm unsure about my read. Very mild town.
CherryDRPepper: I would love if we hung you today. You've been blatantly obvious scum all game long.
Saki: Man, wtf. Just wtf. Unprecedented levels of whargarbl. I don't even have words for you.
Dyslexicon: Some good posts, but I'm calling it null. I've played many a scum game where I drafted a few beautiful posts, dropped some science, and laid back and coasted. We need more content from you.
Oriole: I got a mild townread from post 942, and I've kept it since then.
Titus: I agree with my other head in regards to his read on you. You have VERY similar playstyles, but you're much more reasonable than he is. I've had a solid townread on you since the start of this game and it's not changed at all.
Varsoon: Your switch to a claim of VT saved you from lynching sooner rather than later. Your play has been scummy all game. You've resorted to lying, cheating, and stealing instead of helping the town develop good information. It has not been helpful.
Rank-
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Agreed on both comments.In post 1322, Titus wrote:@Rank head, JMO and Varsoon hardly seem to be scum partners on the same team but each seems scummy in their own right.
@Paschendale, I think that's Rank head's reads.-
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I disagree that it is a conflict at all. They are two scumpals pretending each other don't exist.In post 1329, Titus wrote:In post 1325, TunnelVision wrote:
In post 1322, Titus wrote:
@Rank head, JMO and Varsoon hardly seem to be scum partners on the same team but each seems scummy in their own right.
@Paschendale, I think that's Rank head's reads.
Agreed on both comments.
How do we deal with that conflict though?
/Rank-
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Figures. You're a Bauss yourself.In post 1391, Titus wrote:(I am my own boss so yeah I can do whatever I want)
Good news... Number 2 is here and he thinks you're town. So, that's good.
We have held a caucus and decided that we need to figure out a few more things.
I think Xiao suggested it: Cherry as Serial Killer. I find myself thinking this to be very plausible. I would really like to engage DP when he is available. Let's make a date? I have some questions for the doctor of pepper.
(Varsoon, dont get your hopes up.)
Bulbzie, why is it going to take a couple days to catch up? Rank pulled off a complete thread read today. Unless you have a mafia thread you've got to catch up on too. Then you've def got more work to do. And probably talk strategy right? Yeah, must be harder to get up to speed as mafia... take your time, we understand how important it is.
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facepalmIn post 1497, Varsoon wrote:The ends justify the means, especially when the ends are me confirming scum and half of town for myself and for others.
Rank"Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon-
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Who's this? Sakura or Dr Pepper?In post 1585, CherryDrPepper wrote:So suddenly i'm not the top lynch tomorrow? that's nice to know
Also ok TV let's extend the day so we get 10 more pages of fluff posts provided by Varsoon with the special thanks of Saki.
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Cherry, you dodging my questions? You've got two heads, at least one of you should be able to answer questions directed at them.
Couple things.... The DrPepper head should just pack it up and go home, rampant fail. Have you played mafia before DrPepper? Cherry, you seem smart but you've got to lose the growth. If you two can't pull together as a team, you're a bit of a liability/danger... Like claiming a PR on D1 for no reason? Good god. What's wrong with people? Why?
Oh wait... Scumballs do that a lot here don't they. Varsoon setup his breadcrumb for a PR claim early on. You did the same thing! So cute. Varsoons play was so rock solid and good for the town that you two decided it'd be smart to give it a shot yourselves? What's next? A back down to VT claim, apology to the town? "Sorry guys, the slow head DrPepper thought he could false claim a PR to identify scum role fishers. We didn't find any scum, but we did learn that Pasche is town." Nice work kids.
W. T. F.
Get your head in the game Cherry. Get DrPeppers head out of it.
@Titus - What's wrong with you today? Somebody steal your login/p-word? Titus today is not the same Titus that we had before...
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Agreed. Rank head speaking here. -1- and I agree that it's time to move this thing forward. We're putting a vote back down on Varsoon and we're going to encourage someone to drop the hammer. It's time to end this madness.In post 2061, oriole wrote:
Stifling discussion for Pasche is a terrible idea.In post 2057, Titus wrote:
@All, please let's stop posting until Paschendale gets back. I can't let stupid go on but I don't want this thread to be any more of a trainwreck than it already is.
VOTE: Varsoon"Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon-
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Saki,
I have serious questions for you. Why do you feel the need to break each sentence out into its own post? Why not condense your thoughts into a paragraph or two in a single post and stop spamming this thread? Do you think that people take your thoughts and opinions more seriously when you post like a hyperactive 8 year old?
Give it a try. You'll look smrtr and the thread will be less spammy. Of course, the downside is that you won't break that record you're obviously shooting for.
Can we please hang Varsoon now? The case on JMO is weaker than the one on Varsoon.
Rank"Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon-
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No no no, I'm the small ego side of the hydra. I'm the science side. My friend -1- is the ego side.In post 2158, Saki wrote:it also prevents people with gigantic egos from reading my posts
that's a drawback i had not expected
Here's another thought: You can still avoid 'thinking twice' (lol) while condensing multiple sentences and/or thoughts into a single post."Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon-
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What? Where? You want to engage the tunnel? Saki, you point out your top suspects before nightfall and I'll rain fire down on them tomorrow (after we lynch Varsoon today.) Also, I love the broken posting behavior that is driving Rank nuts. I will try to refrain from sharing reads/opinions that Rank and I do not have consensus on, but I will say this: Saki, you have my consent to intentionally drive Rank bonkers. I greatly enjoy reading this.In post 2141, Saki wrote: tunnelvision op
Sakura/Doctor Pepper, thanks for responding to my incendiary post yesterday.
Xiao Long, I'm not digging your uncompromising push on JMO. Varsoon is shady as shit for reasons I clearly outlined earlier. You might have to go back 1000 posts or so, but fortunately my ISO isn't that lengthy. I think lynching Varsoon nets us more info than hanging JMO. It'll also has the added benefit of reducing the posting activity dramatically, bringing more of the lurkers into the game.
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(The real ego of this Hydra)"Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon-
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Bro, thou shalt not use TunnelVision's name in vain.
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Guys, it's great we have some other suspects. Some good cases, some good observations, etc.
But... I was first. So, kindly step to the back of the line while we hang Varsoon first.
There's plenty of time to hang your favorite scum afterwards.
Thank you in advance for switching your votes back to the original scumlord, my pal, the one and only non town roleblocker turned VT... Varsoon.
Vote for Varsoon! A vote for Varsoon is a vote for your children's future and health.
Brought to you by "The Bauss commission to lynch Varsoon."
-1-"Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon-
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Until I have consensus with my other head, these positions are unofficial for our slot, but I tossed a coin and it said:In post 2292, Varsoon wrote:Bauss, you're fun to play with,
but please consider the following:
Cherry, Flench, Stubbs, JMO.
Town, town, null, town
Varsoon, you're fun to play with but please stop trying to hang ANYBODY else but yourself.
@Titus, I'll answer that question when the real Titus comes back. Where is she? Why isn't she voting for Varsoon? Who are you and how did you get her login/pword?
-1-"Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon-
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TunnelVision Goon
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I know right? Pretty scummy and inconsistent. I wish somebody had pointed out this type of behavior before...oriole wrote:
^Vote is on StubbsIn post 2296, Varsoon wrote:@TV: I just wanna hang those people I mentioned.
Mostly JMO, Flench, and Cherry.
-1-"Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon-
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TunnelVision Goon
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Xiao, peep this home skillet. I was here like 50 pages before you showed up with your lil anime bow tie and Gucci glasses. Now, you can kindly step off my shit and get in line, or I'ma sick Saki on your ass. Roll with me today and I'll get your back tomorrow. You feel me?
-1-"Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon-
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TunnelVision Goon
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TunnelVision Goon
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TunnelVision Goon
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Varsoon, you've got to take responsibility for your actions in this game. I'm going to paraphrase quote a mafia playing pal of mine:
"Bauss, you can be 100% right, but it's useless if nobody believes or follows you."
The levels concept has some merit, but you're applying it incorrectly. We shall discuss at a later time and I will whack you upside the head with some science.
-1-"Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon-
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TunnelVision Goon
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Quantity =/= QualityIn post 2587, Varsoon wrote: @TV: Things will make some more sense as the game progresses and the high-posts-per-hour slim down without me.
Some tricks have very real merit... see for instance my rude flame post to Cherry. I wanted a raw reaction from both heads to flesh out my read on that slot, and I got it. It was simple and it didn't take 10 pages of multiple posts. Sure, it was rude and abrasive, but I only pissed off two people (one slot) not the entire game. You've got to carefully weigh the risks and rewards when you implement a broad sweeping strategy like you did (if you're town.) If you're mafia, that would've been an even slicker maneuver if you dodged the noose. You got some PR's outted, lots of leads, and thoroughly inhibited town bloc action.
Also, I still think you're scum trying to avoid giving away any info/help during twilight to town. Well played sir.
-1-"Bauss is cooler than Rank." - Varsoon
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