Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)

[TunnelVision]

Hey everybody, Bauss here. Ill sign my posts with a 1, since I'm first to the party this round. Rank will be along in a couple days I suspect. Looks like we are past RVS so I'll just start in with the questions...

Saki, wassup with all the posts saying nothing and acting crazy? That your usual game? It's weak. Does it get better?

Who's played with Varsoon before? Seems very conversational, and has a friendly/buddying tone. Wondering if that is normal. Don't like it one bit. "Titus, is that Michael Jackson in your avatar? OMG, love him. Beat it, beat it, beat it, oh find some scum and beat it." Let's keep conversation focused on finding scum please, this isn't match.com.

Titus, I see a bunch of things in your posting/ playstyle that I feel are similar to mine. This will make my reads on you problematic/compromised. I shall defer to Number 2. But to be clear, my gut read is slight town on Titus.

Is there a strategy play in a game setup with an innocent child? Ive never played in one before, so I'm intrigued.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

@TunnelVision - Not Michael Jackson in my AV (at least I don't think so). I've never played with an innocent child either. I just play as if there's a non-existent sheriff who has confirmed the child as town. Also, if you have any questions, feel free to ask. Just because we have similar playstyles doesn't mean that you're prohibited from reading me.

Lol. That Michael Jackson bit was a shot at humor. I guess I failed.

And I'm not saying I won't engage, question or read you... but rather my reads (with respect to you) are compromised and should have an asterisk next to them. Its human nature to like, or react more favorably/positively to people who are similar in nature to oneself. So, if your style is like mine, and I think my style is awesome, I'm liable to think your style is awesome too, and then I'm going to fail at getting a good objective read on you and your content (which is not awesome.)

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[TunnelVision]

Contradictory/obfuscating posts Varsoon - I'm mobile so quoting is a pain but you say that using meta sucks or is stupid but in a previous post you say that every game you drop something that indicates your alignment (the allusion seemed to be that it is 100% effective.) What's the deal there? If meta isn't useful, how do you explain that this thing you drop is 100%? And if you can manage to explain that away... if this thing you drop is 100%, couldn't you just fudge it to falsify your alignment tell when it suits you? Why yes, yes you could.

Don't think I need Rank for this one:

Vote Varsoon

VoteMe - I'll outline the posts I was referring to when I get to a PC. Likely Monday.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Unvote

I smell what you're stepping in.

Found out number 2 is V/LA until Monday. Is it poor form for me to just be me until then, or should I hang back and wait to have a consistent platform? It's my first hydra game, so I just don't want to breach any board etiquette on the matter.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Well hell. I've got all types of problems with this double claim going on, but let me backtrack a bit and start my sorting here:

I voted for Varsoon because I thought he was sketchy and I didn't like some of the things I saw/inferred, some tone, and the self-contradictions he was posting. I backed off of him because I THOUGHT we had a Mason contingency vouching for him:

This was my first "tip":

I'll be V/LA (just from now until tomorrow), but I will say that

I am probably never voting Varsoon ever.

Then I went back and overanalyzed this:

@TunnelVision: Your first block of text is why I find

meta

ineffective. Because I have a controlled variable that gives away my alignment, I can change it at any time. It's a

meta

way of me causing trouble for people who rely on the

meta

. You probably wouldn't get it, since it might be too

meta

for you.

And thought... Hmmm... He used the word META 4 times, does that mean we have a 4 man mason crew? Meta x 4. Terrible odds for it, but that's the funny thing about odds. It seemed strange that he posted like that.

Then I saw this:

TunnelV (Hydra: Definitely not enough. Holding back and

wtf is with the awful Varsoon vote?

Thought to myself... VoteMe plus Paschendale subtly hinting/vouching for him? Alright, maybe, read and see...

Then THIS:

Well, I noticed it awhile ago, and I felt the best play was to not say anything about it. Now that other players are bringing it up and looking my way, I'd like to toss suspicion away for sure. It's probably not what you're thinking though, that's a bit overt.

So I just assumed big Mason group and brought the "Hey, I get it" unvote:

Unvote

I smell what you're stepping in.

But, catching up and reading between the lines now from what has transpired since... it looks like I talked or snooped my way into a steaming pile of bullshit. So everybody in those quotes above, I'd love a damn explanation from:

VoteMe, why wouldn't you be voting for Varsoon ever?

Pasche, what was so awful about my Varsoon vote that you took the time to note it? (I know you're town, but you're like our guiding light so I paid special attention to that buried reference in your read list.)

Varsoon, were you just being a silly pain in the rear jerking around about your stupid self-appointed super meta tell variable that you control? (FYI, if you as a player control it, it can be manipulated as I stated when I initially started in on you.)

Also Varsoon, what the hell were you hinting at/talking about in 182

Also, Titus, what was this:

I think I get this and it tells me a lot about the setup if accurate. I doubt you would be so aggressive in advertising as scum buddies.

Why isn't Varsoon pushing Saki harder then? Also, we haven't been close to lynching Saki since he claimed.

What if they are both scum? Lynching either one lands the other one a spot as "confirmed town roleblocker." Ballsy, but possible. The personality of both seems either silly enough or subtly slick enough to give it a shot.

I REALLY don't like the Saki claim, begging for votes, the timing of it. I hate even more Varsoon's shenanigans. It seems pretty far fetched at this point, odds wise, that the game would be setup like this.

[TunnelVision]

would reading me newbtown explain everything

Is this directed at me? If yes, read below:

No. Even a noob knows that scoring a power role doesn't mean you goad the population into putting you at L-1 just so you can tell everybody you got a power role and subsequently beg them to unvote. Maybe if you said you were new to "thinking" or to "using your brain." But I suspect you weren't born yesterday or that you didn't just fall off the turnip truck. WHY on D1 would you be DYING to reveal your sweet power role to everybody and make yourself a target? Please to be helping me understand the thought process behind the stunt you pulled?

If no:
Sorry. But I'd still like answers to the above. Thanks.

[TunnelVision]

TL;DR I was going to get lynched anyways might as well take down scum with me.

First: How does claiming assist with taking down scum? It doesn't.

Second: I get that you didn't want to get lynched, but you weren't doing it to avoid lynch... You WANTED to claim. Why? What is the motivation for wanting to claim so bad? You couldve brought your a game, made a case against a scum all, lobbied for more time before lynch (we have lots of days before dayphase deadline. You had options that you didn't exhaust... You WANTED to claim.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

@Tunnel: What you said.
Saki's claim makes no sense from a town PoV.

Neither does yours. You didn't even try to cast doubt, or lynch Saki on anything else. You just rolled over and said "Um guys, I'm the real slim shady." You wanted to claim too, or at the very least draw heat. It started back with your comment about NoVote saying he wouldnt vote for you ever. You jumped right out and called attention to yourself. Why draw attention to yourself if you do have a power role? Total fail bro. If you're town, that maneuver cost us your role at the expense of MAYBE hanging scum (which you could've tried to do without claiming.)

Power role holders should guard their power not throw it away.

Also, sorry for typos and formatting... Ipad only tonight. If anything is unclear, please ask.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Second: I get that you didn't want to get lynched, but you weren't doing it to avoid lynch... You WANTED to claim. Why? What is the motivation for wanting to claim so bad? You couldve brought your a game, made a case against a scum all, lobbied for more time before lynch (we have lots of days before dayphase deadline. You had options that you didn't exhaust... You WANTED to claim.

And scum wants to claim and potentially get CC'd?

Scum going down to the chopping block sure does. They claim a power role to draw the actual role holder out or delay the lynch. If they're already going down for content/play/slips or whatever... That's the best thing a scum can do. Saki said "I was getting lynched fo sho", scum or town he seems to believe that... so, yes?

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Titus, please don't put words in my mouth or frame my position. We don't need a tie breaker, we just need answers and more dialogue.

I don't like Saki's followup but I'd put Tunnel as squarely town.?

What is this? I'd made like 5 or 6 posts, have barely done anything, and you putt me down squarely as town? That's bold. Wait, it's not quite as bold if you KNOW I'm town.

Varsoon, I think you're more likely to be a scumball than Saki. The counterclaim thing seems like a calculated mafia play to get the real town roleblocker hung. I also think you have directly contradicted yourself and somebody said conversational/buddying Varsoon isn't town Varsoon (and you're so chatty bro, wassup.) Plus stuff I said earlier.

[TunnelVision]

What options I see none except the claim. I specifically said I didn't want to claim, too. Titus's L-2 vote is why I claimed, not because I wanted to claim.

It's pretty clear that you wanted to claim by the fact that you:
1. Thought that you had to be L-1 to claim.
2. Was going to vote yourself to put yourself at L-1 so you could claim.

Scum. Sit tight, I'm going to get to you shortly. Mafia loves to jump into an active interrogation and say, "Yeah, what he said. It's obvious, I saw it too." I can ride Saki on my own, don't need your help. Go back to that non-committal stuff you've been throwing around all game.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

@Tunnel: My reason for counterclaiming was because I am the Roleblocker, and so if Saki is lying/scum, we caught a scum PR on D1. That's pretty good, regardless of the cost.
Also, if you think I have a consistent meta outside of what I control, try again.
Furthermore, on-site, chatty/nonsense Varsoon is town Varsoon. I can actually link you to Xenoblade Mafia, since it just ended. I died early in the game, flipped VT, and that was one where I was even chattier and proposed a gambit that would get at least two players modkilled.

I don't give a crap about your meta. Meta is useless. You said it yourself. A player that is cognizant of their own meta can manipulate it any which way. You're selectively using meta to suit your needs. That's as scummy as it can get. I can point to a game where I played exactly like this as scum. I can show you another one where I played exactly like this as town.

I don't care about your history. I care about your actions. Your motivation. Consistency. You've got loopholes so big that I can fly a plane through them. Answer my questions about drawing attention. Why if you are a role holder do you want so much attention? Why are you trying to draw heat from scum if you are ACTUALLY a power role? That's the biggest rube move I've ever seen from a rube of your ruby rube rube.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Saki, actions speak louder than words. You wanted to claim, whether you said it or not. Except, you did say it. Now it's a mis-rep, fine. You still wanted to claim and you didn't try alternate routes. Explain why you wanted to claim?

Just like Varsoon needs to explain why he wanted attention. He turned something into nothing for no reason. When NoVote said "I'm never voting Varsoon", and Titus picked up on "The something that actually wasn't there"... Varsoon fed the notion. For no reason. None. No logic behind it.

I need answers to these questions, and neither of you have them. That's why I'm entertaining the notion that you are both scum.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

TL;DR I was going to get lynched anyways might as well take down scum with me.

First: How does claiming assist with taking down scum? It doesn't.

Second: I get that you didn't want to get lynched, but you weren't doing it to avoid lynch... You WANTED to claim. Why? What is the motivation for wanting to claim so bad? You couldve brought your a game, made a case against a scum all, lobbied for more time before lynch (we have lots of days before dayphase deadline. You had options that you didn't exhaust... You WANTED to claim.

-1-

Answer to question in bold above. Second paragraph. I already answered it. You fight. You look for scum. You buy time. You appeal to logic and reason. You say "Lynch me later, let's keep looking for scum for a bit since we have x days until deadline." You avoid telling everybody that you are a powerful special butterfly. You do everything you can. Instead... You did the opposite.

Ill death tunnel you both until you answer my questions. Whether you admit it or not, secretly or openly, deep down or just top of mind... You wanted to claim. That's fine. It's okay. Having a power role is cool and exciting. You were like Ron Burgundy without a camera and a newsroom... Just a message board. You were so excited about banging Veronica Corningstone that you couldn't wait to tell the whole world. It's okay. Tell us why.

[TunnelVision]

@tunnel: Funny that you came into the thread looking to exploit a lynch. Anywaaaay.
I originally wanted attention so I would come off as VI and wouldn't be a lynch target or NK.
Earlier, in-thread, I explained why explaining my methods would be pro-scum.
Admitting to town what I'm up to equates to admitting to scum as to what I'm up to.
So, yeah, if I don't live through the night, it's due to belligerent rubes like you.

Hey man, don't misrepresent me. I don't tolerate that stuff. I'm not here to lynch either of you. I don't have a vote on either of you, nor am I crying to string up one of you over the other. Nice try to discredit me subtly though. Better luck next time.

I'm here because I want answers. I want to sort through this clusterbomb. There are gaping holes in both of your stories. Something doesn't add up. I'm pointing right at it, and you either can't see it or are trying to hide it.

You failed to answer my question in a way that satisfies my curiosity. Your answer fails the logic test, watch...

If you are being honest, and are the roleblocker: your drawing attention to yourself actually makes you a target for NK. It does not assist you in flying under the radar. You played directly into an opportunity to draw attention willingly and openly. You didn't even question NoVote's statement about never voting for you... Instead you took it and grabbed the spotlight with it. You could've said "What the hell are you talking about." instead you said, "Shhh, I'm important but I wouldnt have been so overt about it."

Logic fail. Answer fail.

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[TunnelVision]

I also don't get that humorous (and/or derogatory) reference.

Try not to do that anymore it makes your posts harder to read.

My bad. Anchorman reference. I wasn't trying to be derogatory, just humorous.

Either way, I'm sorry.

[TunnelVision]

Just like Varsoon needs to explain why he wanted attention. He turned something into nothing for no reason. When NoVote said "I'm never voting Varsoon", and Titus picked up on "The something that actually wasn't there"... Varsoon fed the notion.

Why did you want to attract attention to yourself and in doing so insinuate that you were a PR?

@Varsoon

Question above. Context quoted above.

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[TunnelVision]

Could you provide a reads-list, please? At least one line justifying each read.

I'm going to respectfully ask you to stop doing this/asking for it. These big reads lists from multiple people, in a game like this, makes the mafia's job much easier.

[TunnelVision]

VOTE: Varsoon

1) Contradicting yourself multiple times (you're a walking talking paradox)
2) Playing like you don't know about the game setup (comment about jailer role) but you counter claimed Saki's RB claim. Lie to me and tell me you didn't check the game setup before you counter claimed?
3) Subtly trying to throw me off you by mis-representing in 660
4) I feel pretty confident that Saki is town
5) Dominating the conversation (lots of posts), I don't see any real scum hunting. You've got a back door open to exit every argument that you seem to talk yourself into/out of.
6) Buddying, non game related content, conversational "let's be pals" tone.
7) Your attention seeking response to the suggestion of a Mason role, does not compute. Even if I believe your explanation 100%, I think you were setting yourself up for a role claim very early in the day phase. Action + town motivation don't match here.
8) Counter claiming against Saki should've been a fire and brimstone show. You were weak and left yourself a back door to escape, but you stated that you were claiming RB because somebody else claimed your role. Your action + town motivation don't match here.
9)

PYSCHOBABBLE ALERT

.... This gem:

Well, because I am Roleblocker.

Plus:

Well, it's not a matter of lying to town. My Role PM says that I am a roleblocker.
Is it possible we're both Roleblockers?

Bold faced lying is tough. It's much easier to say, "I am roleblocker" than to say, "I am Town Roleblocker"... if you're mafia and lying about it. It's psychobabbleanalysis, but it's obvious. You did like 3 or 4 times. Then, this:

So, if we're both town roleblockers, you eliminate a huge part of town's PR's with lynches?
Sounds like a bad plan.

See how you specify town roleblockers in this post? You didn't before that point. But in this post, you're

speculating

"

If

we are both town roleblockers" instead of

stating

"I am a town roleblocker." Big difference psychologically. You failed the test. Write a "Meta Note" to yourself for next time, lie bolder.

Check out Saki's roleclaim:

I am the Town Roleblocker.

Saki's responses, tone, choice of words, reactions... all jive with the profile we've witnessed from his play. His roleclaim? Bold and pure.

In one of those quotes above you also openly suggest that there is a possibility of another roleblocker. But see my point #2 (game setup ignorance) and point #1 (contradiction.)

10) You've played enough mafia, you're not a noob, so you lose the noob defense for the shenanigans.
11) You've been so cognizant of your meta, mentioning the difference between this and that, but refuting the usefulness of meta. Here's what really threw me... you set yourself up to play like your Village Idiot town game as mafia:

Nacho once said my smoking-gun scum meta is playing a really safe and hardcore, methodical town while, as town, I play Village Idiot.

It gives you the ability to play like a town rube, and write it off as your typical town game, while masking your scumball role. (preview edit, lulz)
12) You're trying to follow somebody else into hanging Saki. You did it with me in 614. You did it with somebody else when they put pressure on Saki. I'll dig it out.
13) You did some fear-mongering about mislynching a town power role.

I have more, but these are the most compelling IMO.

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[TunnelVision]

My case is based on your actions, motivation, content, and some psychology. Neither of which denies or contradicts your competence or intelligence. You've inferred that on your own. In reality, I fear I gave you more credit than I should have:

I expected that a competent and intelligent player such as yourself would've read the intro posts from the mod, and looked at the game setup options. Especially somebody with a power role. Especially if you were considering a counter claim. I also expected that a smart and savvy player like you wouldn't have jeopardized his very important role on D1 for no real gain to the town. Because, let's look at where we are:

If you are right about Saki, and honestly a town role blocker... we have two outted power roles on D1 for no apparent gain to the town. You'll likely both be dead in short order. I have to believe we would be in a better situation if you hadn't claimed. Does that make sense at level 3 sir? If you're town and Saki is town, you severely gimped the town by claiming RB instead of checking the game setup first.

So which is it? Did I give you too much credit and you're actually a rube townie that couldn't be bothered to think through his moves and research the game setup before claiming?
Or did I give you the right amount of credit and you're scum making a very calculated and potentially high yielding maneuver?

My money is on scum, because I do respect and value your intelligence. And the majority of my case stands, despite your meta/levels/snark/arrogance.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Tunnel's post is completely unconvincing. It's basically just saying that "town would phrase things the same way I would, so if you don't you must be scum." And all of that is to disguise the fact that his argument is actually just a PoE because he gives an unsubstantiated townread to Saki. But no, no evidence for Saki as town, just complaining that Varsoon is friendly and not angry enough. Nonsense.

Did you read the same post I wrote? Maybe you should read it again. Your post above shows that either I didn't communicate my observations clearly, or you just think I'm scum and therefore aren't giving them their due consideration.

Is not based on a PoE. There's several slips/tells/etc in Varsoons play that I've watched, noted, and highlighted. Saki's claim (and my town read) is just an add on, not a foundation of the case. There's nothing to disguise, no hidden agenda. I think the guy is scum and I shared why. You don't have to agree but don't restate my position incorrectly, dumb it down to the level you did, and call it nonsense.

[TunnelVision]

I feel like I'm on a different planet where logic and reason don't apply. Good grief.

Let's start here:

This is just me but I think TunnelVision slipped or at least made a bad call.

If you are right about Saki, and honestly a town role blocker...

we have two outted power roles on D1 for no apparent gain to the town. You'll likely both be dead in short order. I have to believe we would be in a better situation if you hadn't claimed. Does that make sense at level 3 sir? If you're town and Saki is town, you severely gimped the town by claiming RB instead of checking the game setup first.

My money is on scum

, because I do respect and value your intelligence. And the majority of my case stands, despite your meta/levels/snark/arrogance.

-1-

First bolded indicates the phrase "If you were right", the next claims "my money is on scum". The problem here is that the if you were right part indicates that he doesnt think Varsoon is scum because scum dont need to be right about claims, theyre out for mislynches. Anyway, I think TV got more active around the time an easy wagon on Varsoon formed and while I havent been as active and I also thought Varsoon could be scum, I think Tunnel is someone we should look at

There's no slip or bad call, I think he's scum. That post was in response to him claiming that my case against him denied him "agency and intelligence." The reality is, I think he's smart. I think he's too smart to counter claim without looking at the game setup first. My IF statement is putting myself into the scenario he is selling (Saki and Varsoon both town) and testing the logic of his defense/argument... I don't believe him, I'm just looking at the scenario that he's painted for us. I'm pointing out that regardless of his alignment his play was anti-town and the conclusion is that because I think he's intelligent, he wouldn't have made that lousy play as a townie. Let me be more clear, and briefly illustrate the two scenarios (both assume that Saki is town):

1) Varsoon is town. He made what I believe to be an anti-town play by counterclaiming roleblocker without checking the game setup.
2) Varsoon is mafia. His roleclaim is a calculated anti-town play that has a number of potential plays/applications/risks/rewards. (This is the scenario that I believe to be true.)

My belief is that he's too smart for 1. The guy puts a lot of time into the game. Lots of posts, lots of thought, lots of theories... Understanding the game setup doesn't take much. He comfortable using numbers in his arguments, and the math for game setup options is quite simple and laid out neatly on that wiki page. Add on that people who seem to know him better than I also believe he's lying about game setup knowledge (Pasche in 842, I think somebody else said it too.) It just doesn't add up. It fails the logic test. I don't see how Town Varsoon could possible think that it was wise (and helpful to town) to counter claim without digging into the game setup (let alone trying other options if he really believed Saki was scum claiming a PR.) Quotes demonstrating that Varsoon's reason for CC'ing was because he didn't check game setup (because apparently I need to provide quotes to support everything I say):

@Tunnel: My reason for counterclaiming was because I am the Roleblocker, and so if Saki is lying/scum, we caught a scum PR on D1. That's pretty good, regardless of the cost.

8) My town motivation for CC'ing RB is because I wasn't aware the setup could have two RBs in it for town. Furthermore, I [AM IN A GAME I CANT TALK ABOUT SO I WONT] have seen VTs claim PRs on D1, which is why I pulled back even harder. My current standing is that Saki is either a VT or is actually a town RB like I am.

The biggest part of his defense to logic based accusations is, "Guys, I'm playing scummy pretending to be a Village Idiot, so all that scummy stuff I've done was on purpose to help me find scum... because only the real scum will suspect that my scummy moves were because I am actually scum. But duh, I'm town. Why else would I act so scummy?" Really? Wow.

Additional support for my case to follow shortly.

For those who've asked/mentioned, I've been the only TunnelVision hydra head to post thus far. Head 2 is on V/LA until tomorrow (which I clearly stated in post 235, but nobody seemed to read it/answer me.)

-1-

[TunnelVision]

A passionless attempt to hop on what looks like a likely wagon for extremely bad reasons that can be dismissed later on as "well he shouldn't have played so weird" in the event of a mislynch... scummy.

You really aren't reading are you? I started in on Varsoon very early in the game because right from the onset something didn't sit right with me. Hop on a wagon? I freaking started it because the guy's play doesn't add up and it's anti-town.

Look here:

Contradictory/obfuscating posts Varsoon - I'm mobile so quoting is a pain but you say that using meta sucks or is stupid but in a previous post you say that every game you drop something that indicates your alignment (the allusion seemed to be that it is 100% effective.) What's the deal there? If meta isn't useful, how do you explain that this thing you drop is 100%? And if you can manage to explain that away... if this thing you drop is 100%, couldn't you just fudge it to falsify your alignment tell when it suits you? Why yes, yes you could.

Don't think I need Rank for this one:

Vote Varsoon

I only unvoted because I thought you and VoteMe were subtly vouching for him, which I detailed here:
565

You didn't even answer the question I asked you directly in said post. Did you miss it because you're not reading, or consciously choose not to answer it?

Back to Varsoon's scuzzy behavior... You yourself told him to knock it off. Yeah, he shouldn't play so weird. But I think its a calculated maneuver. He set it up from the beginning. He talked all about his meta. He said he was playing VI. He basically told everybody what he was doing... don't you think if he was really doing it to catch scum he wouldn't have TOLD EVERYBODY EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING? He did it so he could point back and say, "I told you I was going to play like a goober. See? It's not scummy because I did it on purpose."

121 - which contradicts with 127
127 - which contradicts with 135
137 - which contradicts with 127

Passionless? Once I had some time to dig and prod, I laid into both Saki and Varsoon to get a better read. That's what I do. I apply heat. Go re-read that exchange. Look at how mad/frustrated they both got. When people get angry, frustrated, pressured... their true colors show. That's what I was looking for. Not a lynch at that point, I wanted answers. I got them. The answers said "Lynch Varsoon, Saki is town."

Look at the logic fail of Varsoon in that exchange...
692 contradicts

7) I felt pressured into a weird place when Titus not-so-subtly implied that I was a Mason with Vote-me. I should have just ignored him, but, really, it's whatever. Yeah, that was a shitty play on my part.

692 doesn't make any sense. How does drawing attention to yourself, and subtly suggesting that you are a PR protect you from NK? It doesn't. It only makes sense that he did that to setup a false PR claim later on. He could point back to it like it was a breadcrumb of some kind.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

OK. So what scum motive is behind scum-Varsoon counterclaiming Saki, then? (I'd like TV to answer this too).

(This actually addresses the p-edit a bit too)

Inherent risks of the Saki claim situation:
D1, a town PR claims a role. That person doesn't get lynched. They are borderline confirmed town. They may be covered by a doctor, able to use their power nightly (in this case a roleblock.) If said player targets well, you make it hard for the mafia to thin the population. Could also start the foundation of a town bloc.

Some obvious potential rewards of a false counter claim:
Mafia can attempt any of the following (and some combinations of multiples):
1) Lynch Saki D1, and hang a town PR instead of NK. Win.
2) Let both claimed folks live for the day, mislynch some other townie.
3) Publicly coordinate some of the night moves, learn more about game setup by night info reveals from Saki. (if Saki lives.)
4) Prove roleblocker status (but not alignment), gain town cred for Varsoon

There are other options, but they revolve around additional game setup speculation.

[TunnelVision]

@MOD, Please delete that post above. Wrong account. My apologies.

@Tunnelvision - Read post 872 supposing the following propositions and rate the plausibility please.

1)Both Cherry and Varsoon are town.

2) Both Cherry and Varsoon are scum.

3) Varsoon only is scum.

4) Cherry only is scum.

1) Zero. I think Varsoon is scum.
2) Very low, I'd probably say Zero. They're both experienced players, I don't think Cherry would follow Varsoon's sacrifice bunt play by pushing an alternate wagon on me. Plus, let's face it... I always catch heat on D1. I don't mind it. And Cherrys argument against me in that post is based on a misunderstanding of what I said. Cherry also is a hydra, so there would be conversation and sharing before they made a play like pushing a wagon on me to divert off Varsoon. One head said "Tunnel makes sense, strong case" the other head said "Tunnel fail." I think they'd have taken the time to privately figure that out if they were scum. But as town, you operate under the premise of right and just, thereby you share openly and don't need to be as disciplined.
3) Most likely.
4) Zero, see number 1.

[TunnelVision]

Tunnel please answer the plausibility regarding Cherry/Varsoon. I'll give my thoughts after I just have to verify you're not sheeping me.

I'm not sheeping. I feel like I'm reading something I wrote every time you post. It's friggin terrible. I'll probably never play a game of mafia with you again.... Unless I play it on the third or fourth level and you stay on level one or two. Then I could play my role and pretend to be a village idiot pretending to be scum pretending to be a power role. That might work... But you'd lynch me on D1 for defying logic.

When number 2 gets here, he'll probably say "Number 1 huh? Your mom is number 1. For the love of god, somebody NK Titus... I can't stand 2 bauss's. And Pasche is right, we should lynch a lurker."

I'll bet good money on the above.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Agreed, except for the whole Cherry thing. I think Cherry could be scum. However, if we keep thinkng the same way, expect the occasional paranoia test. You might want to give me one from time to time.

If you had to lynch a lurker who would you pick? I would pick VoteMe.

Glass. Look back at my post to him. He completely failed to/avoided engaging. Lurker town would have fired right back, suspicious of me and pissed. Lurker scum said, "Shit, I'm going to avoid the death tunnel and let him rail away on Saki and Varsoon." Shady as hell. Plus he just jumped right into my active interrogation.

See also, the couple general observations in that same post. Paranoia test for you, since you asked, find specifics of what I was referring to with those observations? Or refute please.

Also, you don't get my jokes... So at least I still have that all to myself.

I want VoteMe to AnswerMe. I want to know wtf he meant and why.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Varsoon, Saki's post at Pasche points out several things that Pasche has overlooked/missed or ignored. Points that are kinda important.

Pasche said you were lying about your knowledge of the game setup. You said you weren't. What's your response to his accusation?

Also, you said earlier that I think people can't be friends. Not true. You saw my joke, that was a chummy move on my part (glad you liked it.) I'm just the kinda guy that likes to hang his friends when they are scum.

Do me a favor though... make a proper case against me, as I made against you? All these votes on me, and nobody has laid out a reasonable explanation. I'm scummy because I think Varsoons play is anti town and scummy? Cherry thought he caught a slip, but I explained his misunderstanding away (correct me if I'm wrong.)

[TunnelVision]

I'm not lying, I really didn't read the setup going into the game. I read it when Titus linked me it, though.

Well, TV, the fair and simple thing is that my case on you is largely OMGUS and rooted in seeing your jump onto my wagon out of lurking as an opportunity grabbing sort of effort. So, all in all, it's pretty weak outside of my own PoV. I'm hoping that by pushing your wagon, I can expose you as town/scum and get reactions out of a lot of other people in the game. I've milked the Saki vs Varsoon thing for about 20 pages, so I figured I'd shift gears and get as much content on the D1 table as possible.

You're a cooler guy than I give you credit, TV.

Pasche, you hear that? Varsoon really didn't read the game setup. What do you make of that? He's saying you're wrong.

Varsoon, you forgot I jumped on you as soon as the game started. Then backed off because I thought you were a mason. Plus I have logic and reason on my side, a Titus mini-me, and another head. Go after somebody else?

Why don't you make a case against oriole? Look at him playing devils advocate about the case against you, almost defending you. If you're town, and he knows your town, can you see the scum play/motivation there? (For clarity I don't think Varsoon is town, nor do I think Oriole is scum. I'm giving Varsoon something productive to do.)

What about Titus implication that Cherry could be scummy? (again, I don't think Cherry is scummy.)

What about Titus being too town? Or reading my mind and posting my thoughts? Weird. Must be scummy. (I don't think she's scum)

Alright, enough silly stuff. I'm off for the night. Number 2 will be here tomorrow and hopefully with the boomstick.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

@Tunnel - DO NOT SUPPOSE I WILL ALWAYS AGREE WITH YOU. I AM NOT YOUR MINI ME! GOT IT!

Also, you asked me a question about interpreting a conversation you had with Glass. What bloody posts are you talking about?

Lol. Its a paranoia test and you're failing. If I point to specific posts, it'll be easy. You think like me.

Dude only has 29 posts. Read the ISO and see if anything jumps out at you.

[TunnelVision]

Hey. Hey Varsoon.

Calvin and Hobbes Mafia.

He's done that at least twice this game. Its meta though so its useless, but its 100% and he drops it every game.

Cherry, I agree on those two sentences. Its the same language nuance/framework of the lie he told when he role claimed. Bold faced lying is hard. (I made this point in my case against him.)

-1-

[TunnelVision]

If you wanna lynch them, do so for reasons other than the claim.

-Sakura Hana

Do you disagree with your other head about the case on Varsoon and/or the read on me? I'd like some answers from you or the other head regarding my response 891 to 872.

@Everybody against the Varsoon lynch:

Go read his Mafia QT for the Calvin + Hobbes game mentioned above:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/E9MxMvmZJ8Qwu

Look at how sharp and logical Varsoon's game play is. Look at his understanding and consideration of the game setup with the play calls his mafia team makes.

Now tell me you truly believe this guy is town here, and town Varsoon thought it wise to counter claim on D1 and out himself as a PR in a game setup that allows for multiple PR's of the same type. (I don't.)

-1-

[TunnelVision]

He's done that at least twice this game. Its meta though so its useless, but its 100% and he drops it every game.

Cherry, I agree on those two sentences. Its the same language nuance/framework of the lie he told when he role claimed. Bold faced lying is hard. (I made this point in my case against him.)

-1-

If it's 100% and he drops it every game...why is it useless?

Well, we discussed this a bit earlier in the thread so my post there is referencing back to our earlier discussion with some sarcasm.

To be perfectly clear:
Varsoon claims he does something in every game that indicates his alignment, 100%. He says he does it without fail and in every game. In the Calvin and Hobbes game post chat, we learn that Varsoon claims his alignment truthfully each game. In this game, he has on at least two occasions said he was scum. It would stand to reason, if we believe him and 100% of the time without fail he truthfully indicates his alignment, that he is scum in this game because he has said so.

HOWEVER, Varsoon controls that. He posts it. He could post "I'm town", or "I'm scum" and it would be an easy dupe if we believed him that it was 100% correct and without fail. My point is, it's useless because he controls it. It's not like the mod is saying "Varsoon is X." Varsoon is saying it, therefore we cannot trust it with any certainty.

TLDR, the fact that he says "I'm scum" in this game is purely fluff, and completely useless.

[TunnelVision]

The only reason that I don't want to lynch Varsoon today is because him living into N1 means a greater chance for me to live to see D2.

This is flawed logic. When we lynch Varsoon and he flips scum, your chances of survival go up dramatically. Mafia won't want to target you because if we have a doctor, you're a likely protection target. It also gives you some information about who you should block to reduce the chances of a successful mafia NK.

All that said, we have several days left for this day phase, so we should not lynch Varsoon right this minute or in advance of the deadline. I will unvote to extend the dayphase if necessary. There are several lurkers (and my own second hydra head) that we need to hear from.

There are lots of other avenues for development.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Well, imagine this turn of events...

Here's my opinion, TLDR: BuBye Varsoon.

I'm not quoting stuff he says, but here's some pieces of his argument and my opinions:

1) "Varsoon did all this as a trick to find scum" - False. Gambits such as these don't help actively identify scum. It might help you find some townies (see his read list info that he garnered.) But truth be told, if Varsoon is town, scum loves him for muddying up the game. They can sit back and watch the goofball just wreck townie efforts, and prevent us from real scum hunting. Anti-town at best.

2) "False claiming a PR can help town" - False. Town needs info. Reliable info. Not fake bs info to make decisions on. You divert town resources to protecting/watching you instead of the real role holders. It doesn't hurt the mafia, it gives them guidance and direction as to where night moves might go. Also, Varsoon just played a game as scum that was flawless, and two town boneheads false claimed PR's. How'd that work put for town? Terrible. Anti-town at best.

3) "Varsoon has done more work and developed more content than anybody" - False. He's mostly just generated a ton of useless posts, beating dead horses. It's alienated a few players (note his behavior contradicts his posting of a desire to get more people involved in the game.) it has substantially muddied the waters. It has taken time away from other players who might otherwise generate content. It's self-important (Sup Pasche), solo minded, and not team oriented. Varsoon knows this. Town wins as a team, not individually, and it requires all townies to develop reads and opinions of their own... Not follow the leader. Varsoon knows this. Bad play, might not be deliberately anti-town... But it is certainly anti-town.

4) "He breadcrumbed" - False. There's hints of a hundred different plays and gambits in his posts. I said earlier that he set himself up early on this game for a PR claim with that BS mason vibe we got and he exploited. He planned this false claim maneuver earlier as a Mafia strategy, not as a town strategy to get to the bottom of another person's claim. But a Null maneuver.

5) "Varsoon just had to know if Saki was telling the truth." - False. If he had truly been trying to deduce if Saki was town, he could've done it without lying, CC'ing, etc. (see the conversation I had with Saki.) Also a fake CC in a game with potentially multiples of the same role doesn't t add much heat on its own. If Varsoon was town, he's crafty enough to come up with better ways to test Saki's alignment. He's smart and experienced. There are lots of good ways to put pressure on somebody. Also, this approach by him assumes that nobody else could deduce Saki's alignment if it weren't for Varsoon (swoon.) Anti-town at best.

If I could have my way going forward, it would go like this: Varsoon please shush, we're going to hang you unless we stumble upon somebody scummier. Thanks for playing. If you're town (which I doubt), lesson learned for you the hard way. If you're scum (yep), good try. I look forward to playing another game with you though.

Everybody else, let's get down to business...

Oriole took a devils advocate position during this whole Varsoon mess. He's actually maintained a similar open minded position on everything, lots of opening doors' asking questions, but no really strong conclusions. Are you traditionally a softer player like this Oriole? I don't mean soft like weak, I just mean soft like open minded (not hard/stubborn/aggressive.) Neither is right or wrong, just a question.

Titus, would love to see you light up Cherry head DrPepper if he shows up and I'm not around. Pretend you're me... Should be fairly easy. Just bring a bit more aggression. (Did I miss your response to Dyslexicons question?)

Pasche, getting past your opinion on me and the lurkers... It's highly likely there is an active scum player. Any gut feelings on anybody else?

Flench, bust out a sweet list for us to work on for D2? Wagon/vote analysis of the Varsoon vote. Take note of the stall when he hit L2 twice. Do two iterations? One he flips scum, the other he flips town? I have a good reason for this, if you'll humor me.

Lurkers unite! Assume we are going to hang two of you. Duke it out. No holds barred. Stay and play or replace out. Also, nobody will hold it against you as there was plenty of wtfery on D1 here.

Saki, bring some new scum searching? I think you have good instincts but they're occasionally clouded... If I'm feeling clouded up, I like to pick points in the game and erase everything that happened before and try to develop new reads. There might be an opportunity to do that now if you think that'd be a useful tool to you.

I'll be MIA until late day tomorrow, so please don't lynch Varsoon yet. We need to make good use of the time we have left to develop useful content.

[TunnelVision]

I've argued my case about as much as I can.
If you want to ask me questions rather than explain how anti-town I am, please feel free to do so.

I think ditching back to the VT thing was a crafty play. You could see votes piling, nobody was buying the schtick, a couple of us weren't backing off... It keeps with your double negative style (Yo bro, way too scummy to be scum), you could point at it and say "I even undermined my cred" but what I don't get is why you didn't setup a harder/better breadcrumb earlier in the game. You could've snuck it in really early and pointed back to it. Would've been a much better backup plan.

Also, I don't get the whole meta thing talking truthful about your alignment. You highlighted it, said you were scum, then even dropped the Calvin and Hobbes game on us. What good did that do you?

Also, that QT is deadly to your scum game, see if the Mod will bury it.

@Pasche: You, TV, and others, I believe.

Dude... Teach me how to get Pasche to read my posts. He seemingly reads all your whargarbl but doesn't read any of mine. It's no good. Do I need to use the @ thingie, or be nice to him? (Hey Pasche, nice shoes. And have you lost weight? Wow, you haven't aged at all since last time I saw you.) Is he mad that I used a little ego? He'd flip his shit if I drove the inflated ego train rolling through here.

[TunnelVision]

Hello friends. Head two of TunnelVision here. My name is Rank. I just read all 53 pages of this thread today, and I have some things to say now.

Varsoon, if I could strangle you right now I would. Seriously. As I went through this thread all I wanted to do was to choke the life out of you with my hands. My other head, "-1-" (lol), agrees with me. This is good. I'm pretty exhausted after reading this thread, by the way. It's been completely insane.

Flench: I initially read you as inexperienced. As I went through the thread I decided you were inexperienced scum, right up until you posted that handwritten list. It swung you pretty damn far into townieland. You've been drifting around there ever since.

JMO: It's scum, I hope we hang it soon, but don't want to hang it first. There are scummier.

Bulbazak: I liked the way Glass was playing right up until he stopped posting, but after looking back briefly I'm unsure about my read. Very mild town.

CherryDRPepper: I would love if we hung you today. You've been blatantly obvious scum all game long.

Saki: Man, wtf. Just wtf. Unprecedented levels of whargarbl. I don't even have words for you.

Dyslexicon: Some good posts, but I'm calling it null. I've played many a scum game where I drafted a few beautiful posts, dropped some science, and laid back and coasted. We need more content from you.

Oriole: I got a mild townread from post 942, and I've kept it since then.

Titus: I agree with my other head in regards to his read on you. You have VERY similar playstyles, but you're much more reasonable than he is. I've had a solid townread on you since the start of this game and it's not changed at all.

Varsoon: Your switch to a claim of VT saved you from lynching sooner rather than later. Your play has been scummy all game. You've resorted to lying, cheating, and stealing instead of helping the town develop good information. It has not been helpful.

Now that I've read the entire thread I'm going to go consult with my other head and discuss. I'm going to recommend (to everyone) that we hang either Cherry or Varsoon today. Frankly I don't care which, they are both scum.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

@Rank head, JMO and Varsoon hardly seem to be scum partners on the same team but each seems scummy in their own right.

@Paschendale, I think that's Rank head's reads.

Agreed on both comments.

[TunnelVision]

^ Rank head.

[TunnelVision]

I have a hard time believing it's malicious.

Agreed.

/Rank

[TunnelVision]

In post 1325, TunnelVision wrote:
In post 1322, Titus wrote:
@Rank head, JMO and Varsoon hardly seem to be scum partners on the same team but each seems scummy in their own right.

@Paschendale, I think that's Rank head's reads.

Agreed on both comments.

How do we deal with that conflict though?

I disagree that it is a conflict at all. They are two scumpals pretending each other don't exist.

/Rank

[TunnelVision]

(I am my own boss so yeah I can do whatever I want)

Figures. You're a Bauss yourself.

Good news... Number 2 is here and he thinks you're town. So, that's good.

We have held a caucus and decided that we need to figure out a few more things.

I think Xiao suggested it: Cherry as Serial Killer. I find myself thinking this to be very plausible. I would really like to engage DP when he is available. Let's make a date? I have some questions for the doctor of pepper.

(Varsoon, dont get your hopes up.)

Bulbzie, why is it going to take a couple days to catch up? Rank pulled off a complete thread read today. Unless you have a mafia thread you've got to catch up on too. Then you've def got more work to do. And probably talk strategy right? Yeah, must be harder to get up to speed as mafia... take your time, we understand how important it is.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

The ends justify the means, especially when the ends are me confirming scum and half of town for myself and for others.

facepalm

Rank

[TunnelVision]

WE KNOW, VARSOON. WE KNOW.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

VOTE: unvote

WHOA. We still have lots of time, no hammers yet. I will straight up hammer Varsoon's face when the timing is right, but now isn't the right time. Unvoting to prevent early hammer.

Will post more thoughts tonight.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

So suddenly i'm not the top lynch tomorrow? that's nice to know

Also ok TV let's extend the day so we get 10 more pages of fluff posts provided by Varsoon with the special thanks of Saki.

Who's this? Sakura or Dr Pepper?

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Cherry, you dodging my questions? You've got two heads, at least one of you should be able to answer questions directed at them.

Couple things.... The DrPepper head should just pack it up and go home, rampant fail. Have you played mafia before DrPepper? Cherry, you seem smart but you've got to lose the growth. If you two can't pull together as a team, you're a bit of a liability/danger... Like claiming a PR on D1 for no reason? Good god. What's wrong with people? Why?

Oh wait... Scumballs do that a lot here don't they. Varsoon setup his breadcrumb for a PR claim early on. You did the same thing! So cute. Varsoons play was so rock solid and good for the town that you two decided it'd be smart to give it a shot yourselves? What's next? A back down to VT claim, apology to the town? "Sorry guys, the slow head DrPepper thought he could false claim a PR to identify scum role fishers. We didn't find any scum, but we did learn that Pasche is town." Nice work kids.

W. T. F.

Get your head in the game Cherry. Get DrPeppers head out of it.

@Titus - What's wrong with you today? Somebody steal your login/p-word? Titus today is not the same Titus that we had before...

-1-

[TunnelVision]

@All, please let's stop posting until Paschendale gets back. I can't let stupid go on but I don't want this thread to be any more of a trainwreck than it already is.

Stifling discussion for Pasche is a terrible idea.

Agreed. Rank head speaking here. -1- and I agree that it's time to move this thing forward. We're putting a vote back down on Varsoon and we're going to encourage someone to drop the hammer. It's time to end this madness.

VOTE: Varsoon

[TunnelVision]

Saki,

I have serious questions for you. Why do you feel the need to break each sentence out into its own post? Why not condense your thoughts into a paragraph or two in a single post and stop spamming this thread? Do you think that people take your thoughts and opinions more seriously when you post like a hyperactive 8 year old?

Give it a try. You'll look smrtr and the thread will be less spammy. Of course, the downside is that you won't break that record you're obviously shooting for.

Can we please hang Varsoon now? The case on JMO is weaker than the one on Varsoon.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

it also prevents people with gigantic egos from reading my posts
that's a drawback i had not expected

No no no, I'm the small ego side of the hydra. I'm the science side. My friend -1- is the ego side.

Here's another thought: You can still avoid 'thinking twice' (lol) while condensing multiple sentences and/or thoughts into a single post.

[TunnelVision]

tunnelvision op

What? Where? You want to engage the tunnel? Saki, you point out your top suspects before nightfall and I'll rain fire down on them tomorrow (after we lynch Varsoon today.) Also, I love the broken posting behavior that is driving Rank nuts. I will try to refrain from sharing reads/opinions that Rank and I do not have consensus on, but I will say this: Saki, you have my consent to intentionally drive Rank bonkers. I greatly enjoy reading this.

Sakura/Doctor Pepper, thanks for responding to my incendiary post yesterday.

Xiao Long, I'm not digging your uncompromising push on JMO. Varsoon is shady as shit for reasons I clearly outlined earlier. You might have to go back 1000 posts or so, but fortunately my ISO isn't that lengthy. I think lynching Varsoon nets us more info than hanging JMO. It'll also has the added benefit of reducing the posting activity dramatically, bringing more of the lurkers into the game.

-1-
(The real ego of this Hydra)

[TunnelVision]

That post was poking fun at Stubbs for tunneling Varsoon so hard.

lewl

Bro, thou shalt not use TunnelVision's name in vain.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Guys, it's great we have some other suspects. Some good cases, some good observations, etc.

But... I was first. So, kindly step to the back of the line while we hang Varsoon first.

There's plenty of time to hang your favorite scum afterwards.

Thank you in advance for switching your votes back to the original scumlord, my pal, the one and only non town roleblocker turned VT... Varsoon.

Vote for Varsoon! A vote for Varsoon is a vote for your children's future and health.

Brought to you by "The Bauss commission to lynch Varsoon."

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Bauss, you're fun to play with,
but please consider the following:
Cherry, Flench, Stubbs, JMO.

Until I have consensus with my other head, these positions are unofficial for our slot, but I tossed a coin and it said:
Town, town, null, town

Varsoon, you're fun to play with but please stop trying to hang ANYBODY else but yourself.

@Titus, I'll answer that question when the real Titus comes back. Where is she? Why isn't she voting for Varsoon? Who are you and how did you get her login/pword?

-1-

[TunnelVision]

@TV: I just wanna hang those people I mentioned.
Mostly JMO, Flench, and Cherry.

^Vote is on Stubbs

I know right? Pretty scummy and inconsistent. I wish somebody had pointed out this type of behavior before...

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Xiao, peep this home skillet. I was here like 50 pages before you showed up with your lil anime bow tie and Gucci glasses. Now, you can kindly step off my shit and get in line, or I'ma sick Saki on your ass. Roll with me today and I'll get your back tomorrow. You feel me?

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Oh boy.

Lynching CherryDP is a bad tactical move. Seriously. Get some votes off please.

Whether you believe the claim or not, bad move for D1. I'll chat with other head and post more later. But let prudence prevail, and unvote Cherry.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Bauss here. You scum bro? Don't make us wait for the mod

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Varsoon, you've got to take responsibility for your actions in this game. I'm going to paraphrase quote a mafia playing pal of mine:

"Bauss, you can be 100% right, but it's useless if nobody believes or follows you."

The levels concept has some merit, but you're applying it incorrectly. We shall discuss at a later time and I will whack you upside the head with some science.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

@TV: Things will make some more sense as the game progresses and the high-posts-per-hour slim down without me.

Quantity =/= Quality

Some tricks have very real merit... see for instance my rude flame post to Cherry. I wanted a raw reaction from both heads to flesh out my read on that slot, and I got it. It was simple and it didn't take 10 pages of multiple posts. Sure, it was rude and abrasive, but I only pissed off two people (one slot) not the entire game. You've got to carefully weigh the risks and rewards when you implement a broad sweeping strategy like you did (if you're town.) If you're mafia, that would've been an even slicker maneuver if you dodged the noose. You got some PR's outted, lots of leads, and thoroughly inhibited town bloc action.

Also, I still think you're scum trying to avoid giving away any info/help during twilight to town. Well played sir.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Town did something right. Yipeee.

btw Varsoon the top poster isn't you, it's me
and I don't trust your VT claim.

Saki, Pasch, Cherry: in case you get smoked tonight... share your top scum suspects.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Cherry, are you saying that you shot Titus? If so, we need to know who our roleblocker blocked.

[TunnelVision]

^ Rank

[TunnelVision]

I'd like to keep this day cycle going for a little bit, so let's not hang JMO immediately. I'll hold off on that vote until we have time to discuss everything. He's definitely going to hang today though.

In the meantime, we need to get an RC taken care of. We are the 1 shot investigator. We investigated Xiao and she came back innocent. That doesn't mean she's 100% cleared, of course, because there could very well be a godfather role out there, but it's worth knowing. If someone else hangs and turns out to be the godfather that means that Xiao is 100% cleared though.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

CherryDrPepper, can you please be specific about your role? I'd like to start narrowing down the field of possibilities here and figure out exactly what setup we've been given.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

People forget that there may well be a doctor in this setup, and the primary targets for last night would have been Pasch/Saki/Cherry, all of which were prime doctor protects as well. I think it is more likely that one of those 3 were protected, rather than Jmo carrying out the kill and being blocked.

Vote Dyslexicon

The odds are low that there is a doctor although it's definitely possible. If a doctor protected someone last night successfully now would be the time to mention it before we hang JMO based on the RB action.

Question: Does a doctor know if they successfully protected someone from a kill, or do they just get a "you protect so and so" and that's it?

[TunnelVision]

I'd rather find your buddy first. It's more entertaining to just watch you hang yourself.

For a guy complaining about the volume of posts yesterday, you sure added 10 posts of content-lite material to this game pretty fast this day phase. What's up?

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Fair enough.

In the downtime, I spent a lot of time evaluating D1 activity. I'll be pulling together my notes more clearly over the next couple days and sharing some notable observations. In the interim, since I'm a bit tied up, I'll be reading and reacting to current stuff.

Xiao, let's ignore JMO for now. Focus your energy elsewhere? There's at least 2 people we need to hang and JMO is only one of them.

And can't wait to hear from everybody else.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Saki, why'd you block JMO? Reasons please. WTB: Logic

Salmonella, how were you confident enough to submit night moves without reading up on the thread? That's lame bro.

Flench, I hope you didn't forget about my Varsoon wagon analysis request.

Mafia needs to kill CherryDrPepper more than we need to lynch it. They're going to start hitting mafia tonight once we sort all this out and hear from everybody. I'm not suggesting it now, but we could almost mass claim and have really good odds of success.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

JMO, we aren't hanging CherryDrPepper today, and probably not tomorrow either. Here's the reality:

If CherryDrPepper is Town Vig, mafia needs to kill it.
If CherryDrPepper is Serial Killer, mafia needs to kill it (but we do too, see next.)
If we lynch/kill 1-2 more mafia, CherryDrPepper is an easy lynch as the player list thins.

CherryDrPepper will die soon enough I suspect, without us lynching. It'll sort itself out. In the meantime, CherryDrPepper (as town vig or SK) is playing pro-town. And we can incorporate that slot + power into our strategy very easily.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

My reads on unknowns/unclaimed:
Dyslexicon - scum
oriole - scum
jmo16mla - I read town. Rank thinks scum.
StubbsKVM/Salmonella - null
Flench - town
Glass/Bulbazak - town

-1-

[TunnelVision]

because Titus was persecuting me

lol

Rank

[TunnelVision]

Case Against Dyslexicon:

1) Content light/Active lurking. 10 posts? C'mon bro.
2) Fence sitting, open back door to escape arguments/positions. (Pasche hinted at this with all the maybes in Dys's most recent post.)
3) Trying to appear town with comments like, "Thank god D1 is over, and with a Varsoon lynch." If you read all 10 of his posts, you'll see some other examples.
4) Setting up to support a lynch on JMO, Cherry, and Xiao for today? Town, town, and town. Fail. But mafia needs to hang town, so makes sense. (They're way behind in the numbers game now, and I think frustrated/hopeless after Varsoon's play D1.)
5) There's some failed logic in a number of his posts, but it's minor in nature and is tied into some of the WIFOM in them. Just the same, it's filler content, no real substance.
6) Contradiction, in the same post no less:

Why would a potential SK try work against town, wouldn't that get them lynched? I don't think we need to worry about a potential SK until we know there is one.

I think there's likely scum among jmo, cherry and Xiao, however I wouldn't really think of jmo as other than nully if it hadn't been for the block thing.

Why is CherryDrP in your lynch list if you're not worried about an SK? If CherryDrP is scum, and setup for/claimed Vig on D1, alongside scumbuddy Varsoon's fake claim then.... no. No No NO. This scenario is too much fail to even consider. CherryDrP is town. Let's stop talking about CherryDrP. They'll be dead in a couple days anyways (2784.) Move along.

7) Avoiding directly engaging TunnelVision... "Fear of the Tunnel". See 2797, no mention of TunnelVision, despite talking about other outted role holders/confirmed roles, players, etc. Very strange. See 183, before the death tunnel was engaged, simple and direct question to Tunnel that subtly opened a door, casting potential doubt on something totally genuine. But see 985 asks Titus a direct question about TV/Titus interaction, does not ask TV. (this was post death tunnel.)

Explaining 7 a bit: We've found that mafia like to avoid us when we play very aggressive. They don't want us to latch on and engage in a direct line of questioning... so they don't poke the sleeping bear (so to speak.) You may think this is self-important, but it isn't. It's true of many mafia interactions with any player that has an aggressive play style. Though I'll concede that it becomes more obvious/disturbing if you are the player.

8) Intriguing Stances:
On JMO: Thought he was town. Then, "Because he was blocked, he probably needs to flip, but I don't think he's scum." Fail. Mafia loves to do this.
D1 pressured/postured around hanging: Titus (town), Cherry (town), Saki (town)?
Varsoon lynch: Jumped on the Varsoon wagon early and stayed there (note it was after that fail train gained steam.) But where was his vote? First on the train. Convenient. Too convenient for somebody who was barely reading/posting and considering the mass confusion that existed around Varsoon for awhile. Not to mention the open doors he left to back off of the Varsoon lynch despite leaving the vote there.

9) This:

Oriole also seems town for genuine scumhunting.

This point alone is weaksauce, I'm just adding it in because it fits in with my theory that oriole is scum alongside Dys.

VOTE: Dyslexicon

There's a few other things that we can develop as well, but I think this is a sufficient starting point.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

CheeryDrP: I spent a LOT of time on Varsoons play and interactions D1 during the extended night phase. I have a TON of info from it. Its messy but I'll be sharing it as needed. I'm very happy with the quality of it though because my profile and read on Varsoon was spot on. So now his play and WIFOM scenarios are a sort of road map for me. If its all the same, I'm going to refrain from the Varsoon association patterns for now though. Its just going to clutter up the thread with speculation and derail the conversation. I do need it for my case on Oriole though (which we can get through once we are closer to nightfall.)

In the interest of further discussion and avoiding a quick hammer:

UNVOTE: Dys

That happened awfully quick.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Given that Dys only has 10 votes (that should be lynchable in its own right), I don't see him posting much more.
What are you looking for by way of discussion, Tunnel? And why do you (Bauss) think Jmo is town?

Discussion from our less vocal players. There's a few shady things that I've noticed about each player on the list of the 6 unclaimed/unknown. (Oriole, Dys, Bulb, jmo, Flench, Salmonella.) I can make a case for any of them being scum. It stands to reason that townies will probe and try to find the light whilst the scum will sit tight and play follow the leader.

So today gives us lots of opportunities to scum hunt, interrogate, and generate meaningful content. I'm hoping some folks step up and argue for/against some of the cases I'm going to make today. We had pockets of great discussion yesterday, but there was lots of clutter. I think we can slow down this day phase, demand content from the lurkers, and set ourselves up for a win.

My read on JMO is gut based with some considerations for meta. I think his play is vastly different from my own but I re-read his ISO several times and I think I can see the thought process behind his behaviors, and they jive for me. I also look at everybody as if they are scum and try to make a case for it. My case on JMO as scum (from my perspective and how I develop reads) is light and weak compared to others in the game. That said, my other head disagrees, and since my own opinion isn't a strong one I'm open minded. If we had no better target, JMO is an obvious lynch today. If we have a better target, JMO is an obvious target for a vigilante kill tonight.

IMO, what Rank and I do today might be our last contributions to the town (we are a 1 shot cop, lesss valuable to protect now, and a reasonable target for NK as such.) So we are both hoping to give it everything we can today. If we can get into some exchanges/discussions with/about certain players, I think we can at least do our part for the day.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Varsoon tried to buddy everyone, oriole.

Well, not quite. The guy voted for almost everybody at one point or another, with a couple intriguing exceptions.

A lot of what Varsoon did was deliberate, but there were some slips.

[TunnelVision]

Case for Oriole:

1) This is tricky, read it a couple times. Oriole states in 361 an if/than situation based on game setup. He commits to this probability argument on game setup before Varsoon claims. Varsoon claims full roleblocker in post 384. And right then, Oriole subtly suggests an opportunity for Varsoon to weasel his way out of the shitty probability false claim he made: post 392. "Any chance either of you is a 1 shot roleblocker (hint hint, Varsoon you're going down in flames bro.)" He does this because he recognizes we're going to filet Varsoon for his BS claim and he wants to give him an out. Varsoon's response says "I can roleblock each night" and shuts down this chance.

2) In the early game, Oriole was very loose with his vote and threw it around to add pressure, demonstrate his suspicions: See posts 62 (for Titus), 133 (for TunnelVision), 234 (CherryDrPepper).

2 continued) Oriole starts the fence sitting on Varsoon in post 417 with a "It doesn't make any sense why he would do this, but then again..." By 519, he's FOS'ing Varsoon... but wait. No vote. 525, more suspicion of Varsoon. No vote. By 669 he'd rather hang Titus over Varsoon. 677 he's stating we should lynch outside of Varsoon and Saki for the day. No votes for Varsoon at all, nor for Titus during this attempt at recovery for team scum.

2 continued) NOW CHECK THIS: 688, dude asks VoteMe a simple question and tosses that vote right on for pressure. Just a few posts ago, he was feigning suspicion of Varsoon/Titus but didn't drop the votes on them for pressure.

3) Oriole begins defending Varsoon: By post 853, oriole is actively refuting the case against Varsoon. But, he concedes several points are irrefutable. Here's a slip in the mix on point 1: "I agree with Pasche here. If Varsoon contradicted himself "multiple times", there should be examples available."
Instead of looking for scum, he's defending scum. What? Because somebody scum hunting is looking for reasons that people are scum, not searching for reasons they aren't. The contradictions in Varsoon's posts are blatantly obvious if you even bother to look at his ISO (which in theory Oriole had done to challenge the case I made.) So, he refutes this allegation by saying "Provide evidence." He went into that ISO dive and research with the sole intention of invalidating my claim, NOT exploring the feasibility of it and developing a better read on Varsoon. This is not scum hunting. This is not town behavior.

3 continued) On points 5 and 12, he agrees that there is no appropriate rebuttal. It would stand to reason that would leave some lingering suspicion of the defender (Varsoon.) But, in 906, he's back to actively defending Varsoon again... this time against Titus's case. This continues for a bit with some back and forth, but Oriole remains non-committal on Varsoon.

4) Pushing a an alternate wagon on a lurker to derail the Varsoon wagon. Oriole starts this in 2055 as things start to look more serious on Varsoon. And he rides it until the end of the day phase. Continually adding more and more reasons why somebody else should hang.

5) Most of his play has been non-committal and not pro town. This is a harder point to make. Varsoon did some things that were actively anti-town in nature (which are easier to identify.) Oriole is more controlled and slick, and hasn't done that. BUT, he has not done anything that is pro-town in nature. So, the absence of pro-town play can be viewed as scummy.

This is just a little bit to get us started. I have more. Let's see what Oriole has to say and see of anybody else wants to build on some of this.

All you lurkers need to step up and get in on this game though. Seriously. We've all heard enough from me, Saki, Xiao, Cherry, etc.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

This is just a little bit to get us started. I have more. Let's see what Oriole has to say and see of

anybody else wants to build on some of this.

All you lurkers need to step up and get in on this game though. Seriously. We've all heard enough from me, Saki, Xiao, Cherry, etc.

-1-

Bold added. We've got people who aren't contributing. They need to step up or be hung.

There is SO much info on D1, I'm really surprised nobody is rummaging through it.

Flench has added like 10 points to his scum score for today. Where do you live that you haven't had access to a computer for a week? Don't tell me a cave because we know you've been able to charge your phone at least. How in God's name do you justify voting for the only person in the game that has been investigated and came back "Innocent." Really?

JMO is the default hang for today, if we can't find somebody else. But I think we can, if people will participate.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Meh true that. I'm just trying to find the time to post. Sorry for sucking it up.

Looks like you found it. You should try to deliver content instead of QQing about your time. Or replace out.

[TunnelVision]

If he flips town, shoot me. (Though I think Dys or Flench would be better targets)
I still think we should massclaim.

I considered this early in this day cycle, but never posted the math because I decided I wasn't confident in it.

If you'd like to work it out I'm definitely listening.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

Any town PR should not full claim. Just say "Yo, I'm a PR" when we get to you. It'll keep the scum balls guessing.

But, as far as order goes... All VT's should claim first. Town PR's should wait. Doing a hierarchy or scheduled order doesnt help.

VT's first. PRs last. Win.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

I've been spending some time looking at the setup and I doubt there are any PR's left that haven't claimed (haven't done the math). Mass claiming would be ok I guess, I disagree with letting people wait, hinting they are a PR but not actually claiming, that lets mafia just never claim until the end and say yea I'm a PR so I waited, it's a bad idea.

After looking it over I think that massclaiming is a bad idea. I think the massclaim helps the mafia more than it helps us. I'm open to arguments against it, but right now I would not support a massclaim.

[TunnelVision]

Still not completely read up, but I'm willing to lynch jmo/dys.

So when are you going to be read up? It's been what, almost a week now? Can you post some reads? Make a case on someone? Or are you just going to ride other people's wagons until someone finally pays you attention?

VOTE: salmonelladreams

Attention granted. What are you doing in this game? Because right now it feels like you're just skating along under the radar.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

What page are you on? When do you expect to be able to contribute to this game? Another week? Tomorrow?

[TunnelVision]

Oh ok, cool.

[TunnelVision]

I think the massclaim helps the mafia more than it helps us.

that's not my point
there is no need to massclaim since we

PROBABLY

already have all our PR's out on the table.

I thought bolding my correction would be helpful.

[TunnelVision]

If you guys are thinking all of our PR's are out, then Jmo is confscum as there was no doctor save.

No broseph. Fail. If CherryDrPepper is SK instead of TownVig, they could be a 1 shot bulletproof SK and survived the hit last night. Or, the mafia targeted Titus last night because they figured CherryDrPepper was lying about hitting Titus. Or... OR... ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRR MORE WIFOM.

Focus on ANYTHING ELSE PLEASE BESIDES JMO. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF MAFIA.

Dig into Oriole, or Dys. Or Flench or Salmonella or Bulbazak. We have 6 people that we need to figure out and you're stuck on 1 of them. Even if you're right about JMO, there's still another scum floating around. Let's find that person.

Oriole, I want a response to my first point in the case against you. So does Dys. None of your answers to my case make sense to me, but you dodged a couple. Varsoon did the same thing. It's scummy.

Dys, where'd you go? Step up in here and get to work. I want to hear your best case why we should lynch Salmonella.

Oh ok, cool.

I know Rank, and this is sarcasm. It's not cool. By page 90, and staying current with this dayphase (I know you have), you can contribute. Please do. We won't be mad at you if you miss something, we'll just point you to it. What do you think of the DYS or Oriole case?

Flench, I want that Varsoon wagon analysis that I asked you for on D1. Did I miss it?

-Bauss-

[TunnelVision]

I already think Oriole to be town, and I think that Flench or Dys is scum.
Salmonella and Bulb are null to me. I'm not stuck on just Jmo, though, I've already listed an easy win for town if Cherry cooperates. It's simple, we kill the VT's.

That doesn't work if the scum nails CherryDrP to the wall tonight. We don't get the NK's we want as quickly as we need them. They kill off our conftown's as fast as we kill off the VT's and we're not where we should be.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

"That doesn't work if the scum nails CherryDrP to the wall tonight."
Also note that there is the chance that I roleblock correctly.
It's also noted that you were trying to create wifom around who scum would target at night when you obviously think (as everyone else should) that Cherry is the primary scum NK target?

Suggesting a plan is bad because of an obvious possibility != trying to create WIFOM, whether you agree with the logic or not.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

I suppose this really does make Jmo possibly a godfather, but also possibly just town.

Where is this coming from? I feel like I'm missing something.

So let's look at behavior instead. Specifically, Bulb's. I see questions and some analysis, but not much in the way of conclusions. One vote for the lurkiest player, and no opinions that could later be used against him. This is safe play. With all the wacky shit going on, safety is not a priority for a town player right now. Bulb is almost textbook active lurking.

VOTE: Bulbazak

Thank you Paschendale. Cheers.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

Tunnel, you really don't think Jmo is scum?

The heads of this hydra are conflicted in regards to JMO, but we're slowly getting around to being on the same page.

I, Rank, think he's a good candidate for scum and that he makes a great lynch for today. However: We can't just let all of these other people fly under the radar and not participate at all. I mean, every time we poke at a lurker we get open hostility and a "Suck it I'm not talking right now" attitude. That's how towns lose. The heads of this hydra would very much like to draw the lurkers into this conversation, and thus far we've been unsuccessful.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

Conversation is impossible. Especially when every single person has a different understanding of the 120 pages before us.

Actually, this is exactly how you get reads on people. You analyze their take on what people say and how they interact. It's what makes conversation

possible

in mafia games.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

What the fuck does me flipping godfather have to do with xiao compared to the alternative jmo flipping goon?

Shhh. Focus on your content post. They all want to hang you.

If you're town, that's bad for you. If you're scum, that's bad for you. Make us believe that you actually care and have some skill at this game. Post something useful. Thanks.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Bauss IS cooler than Rank.

This is how I know you're not paying attention.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

Jmo has always been a decent choice, and his still not offering this fabled content he's working on is making him a better one.

This hydra is growing closer and closer to being ready to lynch JMO. Our efforts to engage lurkers have more or less failed, as the lurkers have, in so many words, told us to screw off because they aren't going to post. We could hit the deadline before SalmonellaDreams, Dyslexicon, or JMO deign to grace us with content.

In fact, we're going to go ahead and put it at L-2.

VOTE: JMO

Rank

[TunnelVision]

@MOD, can we get prods for Oriole and Dys please?

-1-

[TunnelVision]

lol, you should've stuck with lurking, it was slightly less awful than this.

[TunnelVision]

Jmo, I don't know why I have to ask this again, but give a full read list with evidence for everyone and that will be a start.

Yo Flench. What's up. Why you ducking me? I asked for Varsoon wagon analysis. Nothing. Then you jump in here and ask JMO for a reads list after you said you were going to share one yourself (but didn't because it was outdated.)

C'mon bro. Your scum game has to be better than this.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Varsoon counter claiming you has nothing to do with your alignment, you both could have talked this put before D1 got all I know.

You're at L-1 if my count is correct. I think its time for a claim, and a parting post.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

Usually, when I see people working together to set something up, I also shit all over it before it has a chance to work...

?

Rank

[TunnelVision]

That's a move I would expect out of a scumbuddy of JMO. For sure.

I agree with Bulbazak here.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

I'd really like to agree with some night targets with Saki so that you guys know what we've done in the case of us getting killed tonight.

Instead of agreeing on specific targets you should split the list of vanilla townies in half. One of you takes one, one takes the other.

[TunnelVision]

For the record, I'd rather not have xiao be a potential kill target for tonight. If we nail a godfather she's another confirmed townie. For that reason she needs to be a last choice.

[TunnelVision]

Or at least an unlikely choice.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

Or at least an unlikely choice.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

I was actually pissed salmonella hammered for a second there.

Lol nice one though.

Salmonella is prob town for that.

The best thing you can do for us at this point is to post a full list of reads as you see them right now. When you flip scum we'll obviously ignore it, but on the far-fetched chance we find out you're a townie those reads will be helpful.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

Cherry is my partner. You idiots want to lynch me evaluate I was blocked last night? Lol gg town.

Use your words. You can do it.

[TunnelVision]

Cool. Enjoyed it guys.

Rank

[TunnelVision]

Bauss, you are cooler than rank.

<3

Rank