Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)
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Varsoon Scatman
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Well, looks like I can finally trust Pasche without that nagging paranoia I usually have to deal with.
Hey everyone. It's nice to see some of you again and I'm excited to play with those of you I haven't been in a game with yet.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Glass: Nice Onani Master Kurosawa avatar. Or, at least, it looks like that guy's work. My original avatar on this site was from Chikan Otoko.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@JMO: Did you check my games and realize I'm the lamest person to RVS with or did you just give in?
@Glass: Cool. If you haven't read his other stuff, I highly suggest checking out Chikan Otoko.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Flench: Get an avatar. Also, it's still pretty RVS, so my top scum-pick would only be myself? I don't know, man.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Cherry: Because I wanted to see what people would say, mostly. Everyone always says they are town. Mixing things up gets the game rolling, don't you know?
@Glass: Well, glad I found someone else who's read all of it. I really like those two works. Anyway, to the game--why is hydra voteswapping scummy?
@Saki: Looks like Haruko from FLCL, but I know that's not the case. Also, got anything to say about the game-state?
@Titus: Not really a random vote if you're laying a vote on a player who's posted a few times so far and read the thread to this point. What's suspicious about Cherry?-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Glass: Right on. Makes sense.
@Cherry: So your vote on me is not serious, then?-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Pasche: Heya! Sorry I placed out of the last game we had, but couldn't handle the work-load. Glad to see you as conf-town here. Not sure if I agree with your Saki point, since I've seen plenty of town cull votes for lynches in a similar fashion. Reads as null for me.
Which, you know, I could vote for because I don't like the process, but that's like the pot calling the kettle black. Eh, maybe I'm over-thinking it. It's 6 AM here, so I'll post when I'm more coherent.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Titus: You're probably jumping to conclusions or rationalizing the beginnings of an early wagon in your post 58.
As far as your comment in 54, you can say it's buddying, but given my history of games with Pasche, it's just a bit I wanted to share but couldn't via PM, because, you know. Rules and stuff.
To your question, yes--but in different cases. Mostly for lurkers/a miller.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Titus: I had a game with Pasche where he played very pro-town, but I was paranoid that he was rolling a really convincing ruse. I replaced out of that game, though, so I didn't get to see what his alignment is. In this game, I feel I can fully trust his judgments without worrying--something that is good, given how well Pasche plays town.
Anyway, as far as the current game-state goes, it feels like the tension between Saki, Titus, and Cherry is scum-involved. I'm not used to seeing town vs town crossvote so early, so I'm pretty convinced there's a bad apple there. The only problem is that I can't deduce much with the info given. I'm willing to say that Titus is the scum, though. He's been making really careful plays and working hard to look town, but it feels a bit artificial--like he's trying to earn towncred way too early with the questions posed so far. /shrug. Glass is soundly town so far and Cherry is iffy for me. Was reading the slot as town but seems scummier as of recent.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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It'd be nice if you could explain your vote rather than hoping on a wagon with a naked vote.
VOTE: Jmo16mla
Explain your vote.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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A small wagon's still a wagon. Explain your vote.
@Flench: The reasoning behind his votes and how cynical his voting methods are (based on his own logic rather than other's//doesn't vote opportunistically) come off as town. Clearly, this doesn't make the slot absolutely town, but it's a nod in that direction.
@Dyslexicon: Your points are the reason why I should probably have my vote on Titus. Still, I'd much rather pressure out JMO for this shit. I don't see why no one else thinks it's important. Dude just left a vote and it would've coasted easily.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Unvote
Jmo's recent activity is better. Don't think you can get away with that silent lurkdom/vote-dropping you usually do in this game.
@Flench: Glass answered all my questions for me. :3
@Tunnel: Being friendly is a null-tell. Meta me and you'll see lots of hilarious and intentional patterns that you shouldn't trust. Nacho once said my smoking-gun scum meta is playing a really safe and hardcore, methodical town while, as town, I play Village Idiot.
Regardless, I'm shooting for being a fun guy to play with in all my games, despite alignment. It's super important to have fun, and I want to foster that kind of a game environment.
@Glass: Your 117 and other various approaches to pressure are fucking awesome, by the way. It makes me really happy to play with you, but also terrified that you're scum-playing-town. Jmo's definitely scummy, but I'd like for the first day to be long enough for us to get solid reads on everyone.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Oh, by the by, I'll be V/LA from Monday until further notice. I'm moving across the country and stuff.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Otherwise, people bringing up my meta are stupid--there's a huge thing I drop in every single one of my games that is a sure-fire way to tell my alignment. Therefore, anyone doing substantial meta work on me already know what alignment and role I am, and, furthermore, can explain -how- they know.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Oh, I'll likely be back around Wednesday for sure, but if everything goes terribly, I'm either dead or never got my internet connection setup despite being assured it would be when I arrived. In that case, well, I'll try my best to let you know via a library or something.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Titus: My text-walls are typically 2-hour endeavors that mark up to 3,000 words in length and have always been, to this point, wrong.
So here's a quick reads list with no nulls, since nulls are for rubes.
Vote Me - Town. (Good responses, seems engaged, buddying perhaps?)
jmo16mla - Scum. (Is too curt, disengages hard, deflects hard, empty votes)
Glass - Town. (Highly analytical, engages with a pro-town mentality)
StubbsKVM - Scum. (One post? Lame.)
CherryDrPepper (hydra of Sakura Hana and DoctorPepper) - Town. (Hydra malarky is hydra malarky, but seems justified so far)
TunnelVision (hydra of Rank and likeabauss) - Scum (Two posts, seems like a fence-sitter. Wants to know what others think more than asserting himself. Grow a pair or get lynched.)
Titus - Town. (Engages with different players, isn't engaged in distracting meta-malarky, is to-the-point and pro-town about info gathering)
Paschendale - Confirmed Town.
Saki - Scum. (Might be village idiot. Vote hopping like no tomorrow and worse empty votes than JMO. My vote would be here, but I always feel naughty when I vote people on V/LA.)
Dyslexicon - Town. (Or, at least, is playing way more town in those two posts then I've ever seen the player play town. Really engaged and probing in the right areas, I feel. Also, to answer, it feels like no one else wants to pressure JMO or Saki for voting without articulation. That shit bugs me.)
oriole - Town. (attenative, albiet weaker plays so far. Worth keeping an eye on.)
Flench - Scum. (No articulation, stirs up the pot from time to time, highly reactionary in play rather than probing/info-gathering.)
Anyway, that's that. Thanks for keeping things in a row for when I head out, DBK.
Hope this helps, Titus.
Oh, also,
Unvote
I -really- want to vote Saki, but it's against my mojo to stick votes on someone VLA.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Oriole: Scum can do anything, so I can't really say both titus and Jmo are the same alignment due to Jmo's interaction with him.
@Titus: I usually have people as scum until I can deduce otherwise. I also really don't like falling into the mentality that anyone is absolutely scum or absolutely town, but that everything is in flux and people could be anything, so reads are more of a gauge to see how I am gauging that particular player more than an indicator of absolute value. I really don't like null reads because they don't give town that much info, so my list is a bit scum-heavy, but, honestly, 5/13 isn't so bad for a game with 6 pages.
'Rube' is a derogatory slang word--I like the way it sounds. It usually denotes lower/more basic intelligence. For instance, you wouldn't trust a bunch of rubes with something important.
I also hate meta-related arguments a lot, which is why I'm giving a firm, rhetorical finger to the people who are basing their reads on me off of past games. I think people should be read in the context of their contribution to the game at hand, rather than an analysis of their typical approach to the game on-site.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@TunnelVision: Your first block of text is why I find meta ineffective. Because I have a controlled variable that gives away my alignment, I can change it at any time. It's a meta way of me causing trouble for people who rely on the meta. You probably wouldn't get it, since it might be too meta for you.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Pasche: I can make sense of Glass' response, but maybe just because I'm good at sense-making. Or exceptionally and decisively terrible at it. Anyways!
Saki's scum, I agree with you on this point. I... still really don't want to put a vote on a V/LA person, but my vote's my weapon, so I've got to put pressure there. Please forgive me, Saki.
I think this mostly stems from a time I got lynched while I was on V/LA. It was the lamest thing, and made me fume at stupid town for about a week.
Vote: Saki
Sorry for being kinda wishy-washy and half-assed so far in this game. I'm usually the loudest person.
I've spent most my day packing and seeing friends for the last time. :/
I'll be a lot more active once I get up and running in my new place!!
In the mean-time, anyone got any questions for me?
Oh, and!
@Pasche: Conclusions!!
Jmo is totes scum. He's a pretty dodgy player in general, like the kind of person who says "You guys are idiots" when votes amass on him. Dunno if that's a null-tell for him, but it's just plain scummy in my perspective so I'm putting him down in the naughty list.
Saki's input is terrible and interactions are bad.
Titus is right for not trusting me.
Vote Me is really strange. People usually don't say that I'm confirmed town until a day or two in. Actually, people usually just lynch me, hahah.
I don't wanna die early, but if dying early is what it takes for scum to get lynched, eh. It's worth.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Well, I noticed it awhile ago, and I felt the best play was to not say anything about it. Now that other players are bringing it up and looking my way, I'd like to toss suspicion away for sure. It's probably not what you're thinking though, that's a bit overt.
You shouldn't ever trust anyone who isn't in-thread confirmed. Given my play so far, it'd be really suspicious to just flat and trust me. I've soft-claimed scum and played like a louse. It's a crummy Varsoon tactic that players like orcinus and Hiraki really hate.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Dyslexicon: Scum can be anything, and obvious is a gamble for them but it can pay off. Can't like the games I could give evidence of a D1 obvious scum gamble, since they're ongoing, but seeing as I'm only in one other ongoing game where a gambling obvious scum got lynched day one *cough cough*...
Shadow my daisies, I'll appear what I want when I want and where I want.
As far as your points on Cherry, I can see that, but I really just want more activity out of the slot.
CHERRY, BE MORE ACTIVE. I WANNA SEE YOUR HYDRA UPSIDE AND DOWN. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT STUFF? DO YOU HAVE QUESTIONS?
Also-also, Dyslexicon, you're being really tacitly town. Dunno how to feel about that, but it's good for now. -For now-.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Like should be link. I can't like them either, because, well, they probably wouldn't return my feelings. Nyoro~n.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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It bums me out when all my games are slow-moving.
I might just pack up my computer or go to sleep, so when I stop posting, I'll be on V/LA.
I'll mark it on my profile, so don't fret, <3-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Okay, let's get a few things straight.
I just got back from my V/LA, but I'm settling into a new home, so don't expect me around 24/7... yet.
Here's an attempt to answer people's questions, but please throw me bolded ones if you want me to get them/I forget any:
@Glass: I swapped my vote onto Saki after re-reading and Iso'ing some players. It's what I do from time to time in early-game to see if there's stuff I miss. I don't like the lack of articulation on early votes Saki's made. Also, calls for sheeping and all that.
As for the swap from JMO, who is still on my scum-list, I just wanted to put pressure there. He posted a bit out of it, which was good, even if the content was lacking. I got what I wanted with my vote, although no one seems to care about lynching JMO's transparent scum-game, so I'd rather shift focus.
@Nerds: I tried to guess Saki's avatar because I figured I knew what it was/was entertaining the idea. If I wanted town points, I wouldn't claim scum. Rube harder, Rubes.
@Saki: I put a vote on you for pressure. Thanks for the OMGUS/poor return on my serve.
Also-also, I'm going to bash you over the head if you think I'm stupid enough to try to earn town-cred with such pointless and obvious shenanigans. I've claimed scum in the thread already. Twice in this post. I'm kind-a in charge of my rhetoric, so don't say "OOOH LOOKIT DIS SLIP", because if it was there and you noticed it, that's 'cus I wanted you to.
That pretty much clears it up. Vote stays on ball-Saki.
Get some ice for those burns.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Seriously, Saki's done nothing since I voted Saki other than break VLA to bitch about it and put fire on my back.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Saki: It's funny watching you flail. Honestly, though, what Titus said about seeking truth rather than convincing people and your swapped votes from me cherry to me to cherry are both pretty good reasons for my vote to stay where it was.
Why am I not playing the friend card right now when I was when I entered the game? Maybe 'cus I was genuinely happy to be in a game with Pasche as confirmed town and with someone who uses an avatar from a piece of literature I like a lot?
I'm being a bastard now because people are stupid, and they should have to realize that.
@CherryDrP: Feeling a lot better about your slot with the retaliation on Saki. You proved really town under foppish pressure, and dispelled the absurd case Saki's been trying to build so far.
@Titus: You might be playing too town for me not to be paranoid of you.
Anyforwho, big things:
Saki, you're at L-3. Are you still on VLA? If so, let us know. If no, take off your VLA banner. I don't want to see you hit L-1 and not be able to claim, etc.
JMO, You prod-dodged, but will you actually post some content? I feel like a louse when I put people on my scum-dar for putting in minimal effort. Ultimately, it's a null-tell, but it doesn't help town.
Stubbs, any reason for your absence?-
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Varsoon Scatman
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You go into your User Control Panel, then go to Leave/Vacation tab at the top and disable it, I think. Should be easy to find.
You seem to have quoted the wrong thing/only a little of my post, as your post is addressing parts of my post that you did not quote.
Your case on me has points that I could make about half the people here, or about myself in several of my completed town games.
CherryDP should have a scum-read on me. I'm scum.
Can you quote the place where Cherry is claiming scum?
You're getting lynched because you're taking the game seriously. My play is far different from yours, and if you think that they both have the same effect, you're mistaken. L-3 mistaken, at this point.
PEDIT: I talk about your lynch as if it's likely, because it is. You're at L-3 and stringing your own noose. I'm warning against you being at a (likely) L-1 without the presence to claim/defend yourself. There's a difference of rhetoric that you're missing, I think. If I wanted to talk about your lynch being inevitable, I'd write things like, "Well, once we see what Saki flips..." or "Who should we go after D2?" or... You get the picture.
@Stubbs: Solid. Please catch up and provide some short reads. I feel like JMO is -definitely- not a pro-town player, or that he's a town PR trying to lay low. Regardless, the best way of dealing with it is letting him live through D1, then seeing what happens at night, then pressuring him into the ground on D2 with a lynch if he's still scumming it up.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Thanks for updating your VLA banner, Saki. :3
Solid exchange between Saki and Cherry, too. Shifts them both a little more town for me.
But, yeah, what Cherry said. Please give like a sentence to explain your reads, it'll help gauge them better and give us some trajectory when they shift about.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Saki-saki, you do this thing where when someone points out/asks you something that might implicate you as scummy, you respond like three times in defense.
It's null, but kawaii~-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Titus: Some people play a hard-boiled town game when they're scum. I tried it a few games back and won with it, but it's obvious if you follow a person long enough. Regardless, I'm always skeptical of people who seem irrefutably town in my mind. It's mostly paranoia, but I also don't want to be duped by scum playing town, if that makes sense. Regardless, your contributions and attention to detail is really amazing, and so I'm glad to be playing with you. A lot of the time, I'll have a question for Saki and when I F5, you've already asked it.
Questions:
How do you feel about our lurkers?
What do you feel is the best way to pressure a player?
What do you typically look for in order to discern alignment?
Do you consider the playerbase as town until proven scum, scum until proven town, or null until proven one or the other?
Regarding Saki, do you think the slot is scum/why so?
@Oriole: Perhaps I should'a qualified. Saki hasn't done anything *significantly pro-town* since the vote he put on me.
And, while I feel a bit more conflicted about it, Saki still feels like the best gamble for a scum-flip for D1 as of page 13.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Titus: I often refer to the players via their slots. That way, I differentiate between their play in this game or their play across games. For instance, is Varsoon scummy? The answer is likely yes. Is his current slot in the game scummy? That's a different matter.
So, here's a more articulated version:
Do you feel as though, in this current game, that Saki is scum? If so, why?
Also, thanks for answering my questions.
It'll be helpful for tracking arguments you make later in the game.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Saki: You could just claim at L-2 instead of putting yourself in quick-hammer territory. The last thing we need is to have a short D1.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Right on.
1) I've never played on any sites before this. On this one, feel free to check my game history. I have about half-a-dozen completed.
2) I try to find slips in logic, usually across a series of posts. That's why I often ask people for their reads. I also look out for players who use exclusive information in order to push a lynch or who try to exploit information in order to do so. For instance, Saki's tried to exploit that I guessed at his avatar. I usually don't mind when a thing like this is used to support a case against a player, but when it's the foundation of one, it gets to be a bit weak and scum-oriented in my opinion.
3) I usually see all the players as scum until proven otherwise. Of course, in my mind, no one is confirmed as scum or town until their alignment is confirmed in-thread by the mod. Everything is in flux, but I typically don't trust other players until they earn it.
4) I don't like setup speculation, since it usually leads to PR abuse, which is a situation scum can easily take advantage of. I've seen it completely crush town in a few games I've been in on-site. I usually don't engage in setup speculation and I don't like the WIFOM that comes with people claiming roles. It's exclusive knowledge, which, as I explained earlier, is something that is dangerous to town.
5) Oriole makes a few good points from time to time and is playing a lot like a player who wants to contribute to town but doesn't want to have a loud voice in doing so. I've got Oriole's slot leaning town at this point, and the skepticism from him has been pretty town-oriented, imo.
6) Paschendale - Confirmed town, and is usually very methodical as town. Glad to see Pasche in a conf town slot, since it means town will get work done.
StubbsKVM - Don't know what to think about this slot, but he's compliant and his VLA isn't scummy, so he's leaning town for me.
Vote Me - Null. I need to see that catch-up post he promised us.
TunnelVision - Lives up to his name. Hasn't produced much outside of a short tunnel on me. If that was pressure, it wasn't felt. V/LA is null, too.
Dyslexicon - Dyslexicon is a good player, but he's playing VERY carefully this game. It's causing me to feel really paranoid, and given the amount of posts there, I just can't read the slot without the nagging feeling I'm being tricked.
JMO - While JMO's post-count is high, his content is low. I'd like to see the slot produce content for once, instead of coasting. I talked about this earlier in-thread. Otherwise, scummy.
So, ultimately, put pressure on Vote Me/Stubbs/Dys/Tunnel to contribute posts to the thread and for JMO to put content into his posts.
7) It usually has to do with putting a vote on them and building a huge, stupidly long case. I'll do anything to garner a response from someone I think needs to contribute.
@Saki: Claims shouldn't be taken lightly, and there's never reason to vote yourself unless you just want to suicide and yell at town for being incompetent. Okay, well, I did that once, but, yeah, don't.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Also, scum would have to be pretty stupid to quickhammer you if you put yourself at L-1 and claimed town.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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What'll happen instead is that town will hammer you (in most cases) and then day ends, scum gets a NK for free, and wagon analysis turns out terribly given the amount of articulation put into it.
As far as town frustration, it's annoying. Usually, that means that scum is winning and town is being duped into playing town v town. Break that frustration by bringing out compelling, well-articulated cases on your scum-spec-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Well, I wanted to Vote:Saki and make him flinch, but all this happened while I was out bowling.
So, would this be a poor time to counter-claim Roleblocker?-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Well, because I am Roleblocker.
Flench could just be, you know, not home and on the site, Saki. See if he's been posting elsewhere?-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Well, it's not a matter of lying to town. My Role PM says that I am a roleblocker.
Is it possible we're both Roleblockers?
P:EDIT: Then it's safer to assume, given how conversational he's been, that he's AFK. No need to fan the fire on someone who's literally done nothing.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@oriole: My RolePM specifically says I can use my Roleblock once each night.
Titus is going to get out of this one because he's town, Saki. It'd be nice if you could build a case on him, rather than a spat.
@Titus: What happens if we lynch Saki and Saki flips Roleblocker? Isn't there a chance that we're both Roleblockers?-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Pasche: I will flip Roleblocker if I die.
Also, I will choose the target we agree on. I'd like to talk to all of town about who I should Roleblock.-
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@Titus: I thought of this and figure'd we come up with a pool of folks. Or, you know, not talk about it at all.
@Dyslexicon: Enjoy yourself!-
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Varsoon Scatman
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At the very least, I'll let you know who I roleblock if we make it to the next day.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Nah, I'm not down for a lynch on myself.
@Cherry: Well, if you need me to answer anything, I'd be glad to.
@JMO: Can you articulate why lynching a claimed Roleblocker is a good idea?-
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Varsoon Scatman
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So, if we're both town roleblockers, you eliminate a huge part of town's PR's with lynches?
Sounds like a bad plan.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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I've seen strange things as well.
I still stand behind my Saki = scum standpoint. Not so much because of my role and likelihood in the setup, but for all the other points that've already been raised.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Titus, no need to speculate on 0 roleblockers.
I am a roleblocker.
Given how I feel about exclusive information, I don't like the position I'm in, but I wasn't going to let someone else claim my role.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Fair enough.
Although I've already put forth the effort to explain why Saki should be the lynch.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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I could explain why your arguments against me are weak, but it'd be pro-scum to do so.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Saki: Between being the top lynch candidate as of right now and being a claimed PR, chances are slim unless one of us (or both, if you actually are roleblocker) block the right scum. You might be roleblocker as well, but the chances are low and I don't like you as town so far.
@Glass: I'm almost positive that Saki is scum. Still, there's a small chance Saki's Roleblocker and so am I. In that case, well, /shrug. It's a gamble.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Saki: Oho? I'm the top lynch candidate? It sure is obvious, given all these votes on me.
Oh, wait, those votes are on you, Cherry, etc.
Only person voting me is JMO, and he won't articulate a compelling case against me, or, well, anyone he votes.
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Varsoon Scatman
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If calling someone town is buddying them, I've been made buddies with people far too often in all of my games.
I didn't account for SKs, Vigs, and Doctors because I don't do setup speculation. Please read my posts before looking like a jerk. I explained that in this very thread.
Fixed it for you."You're confscum. Once people start reading this thread,I hopethere will be more talk of voting you."
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Varsoon Scatman
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Yeah, he's defending me because he's convinced I'm town. I can soft-confirm this because I'm convinced he's town.
Would you be happy with a titus-mislynch, Saki?-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Well, shit, if Titus is scum, why is there only one vote onhimP:EDIT: her?
Vote: Titus
(Sorry if I confuse genders on people. It's nothing personal, yo.)Last edited by Does Bo Know on Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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wait, line doesn't work?
What is this world coming to?
@MOD: Fix my line!
Fixed. The HTML is "strike" instead of "line." For future reference.
~DBKLast edited by Does Bo Know on Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.-
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Titus: Messin with Sakisquatch.
@DBK: Righteous. Lines are dope. What does Line do, then? I now seeStrikein the reply options.
@Saki: How positive are you that Titus is scum?-
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Varsoon Scatman
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Varsoon Scatman
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Varsoon Scatman
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Okay, cool.
@Titus: What are the chances of you, me, and Saki all being town? Do you think that's possible?
I'm a bit worried that scum's coasting while we duke it out.