Mini 2297 | Conception | Postgame

[IceDragon70]

Hi guys I claim Benediction!
Any CC's?

[IceDragon70]

Wait I just realized that "hell froze over" is called that way because Drew probably said something along the lines of "I'll hydra when hell freezes over".
That's actually neat.

[IceDragon70]

Also if it wasn't clear, I am blatantly refusing to cast a vote. Sue me!

[IceDragon70]

Scummers of the world unite!

VOTE: IceDragon70

Consider yourself sued.

I love court proceeding!
What alignment are you?

[IceDragon70]

I love court proceedings!
What alignment are you?

Malediction, obviously. What else would prosecution be?

Anyway, enough joking, I see an off ramp out of RVS. What is this, we have an innocent child already?

I agree it's time to get off RVS, but how does saying "we have an innocent child already?" do that?
VOTE: Feysal

I also suspect that Enchant's greenscum claim makes them have >rand chance of being redscum, so I'm going to

FoS: Enchant

.

[IceDragon70]

I love court proceedings!
What alignment are you?

Malediction, obviously. What else would prosecution be?

Anyway, enough joking, I see an off ramp out of RVS. What is this, we have an innocent child already?

I agree it's time to get off RVS, but how does saying "we have an innocent child already?" do that?
VOTE: Feysal

I also suspect that Enchant's greenscum claim makes them have >rand chance of being redscum, so I'm going to

FoS: Enchant

.

I guess you will be nightkilled

Nuh uh! You'll have to pretty ambitious to try and kill me tonight.

[IceDragon70]

I also suspect that Enchant's greenscum claim makes them have >rand chance of being redscum, so I'm going to FoS: Enchant .

Why?

And, why did you need to remark that you

refused

to cast a RVS vote? You're clearly not adverse to throwing votes around

I'm refusing to make a nonsensical vote on a nonposter. I am not adverse to trying to get the game out of RVS, even if it includes a semi-random vote.

[IceDragon70]

Is this post a question to the mod, a question to HFO, or just a statement?
Also it did but only because I voted you.

[IceDragon70]

I also suspect that Enchant's greenscum claim makes them have >rand chance of being redscum, so I'm going to FoS: Enchant .

Why?

And, why did you need to remark that you

refused

to cast a RVS vote? You're clearly not adverse to throwing votes around

I'm refusing to make a nonsensical vote on a nonposter. I am not adverse to trying to get the game out of RVS, even if it includes a semi-random vote.

Right, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm actually asking why you needed to say that, you could very well just not partake in RVS voting and I don't think anyone would have pestered you for that

Considering I have seen many a player scumreading people for lack of votes on page 1, I disagree.

[IceDragon70]

Also, we haven't actually left RVS. So saying "wow we have an innocent child" has barely contributed. Therefore I shall keep my vote on Feysal.

[IceDragon70]

Wait I just realized that "hell froze over" is called that way because Drew probably said something along the lines of "I'll hydra when hell freezes over".
That's actually neat.

Pretty accurate, and I still feel dirty being part of a hydra.

But at least as IC, I can shit post and no one can scum read me for it....excellent.

-Drew

Yeah and I can townread you and not feel guilty for it!

[IceDragon70]

Now this actually looks relevant. Why would you say this?

Honestly I said it because I am feeling on top of the world today, and I know nobody can touch me. There may or may not be an additional, mechanically motivated element to it.

[IceDragon70]

I know nobody can touch me.

Why, sure can, whatch me. VOTE: Dragon

No tagbacks.

~b

I'm touched by this gesture of friendship!

[IceDragon70]

Also it did but only because I voted you

Also, we haven't actually left RVS

Which is it atm?

Probably the latter at the time you posted that, but IDK about now because there's 2 new pages.

[IceDragon70]

I think it's not more letter eating like "scum not scum" it's more that you assume that one of teams could benefit town which is not assumption commonly made.

I disagree, when I first saw the teams (in the OP) I was thinking it's probably about a coin toss on whether or Benediction can win with town, and it's clear Malediction can't.
Of course this might be incorrect due to bastard element of mod misdirection, but there's a reason I claimed Benediction and not Malediction in my opening post.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that there's a

possibility

of Benediction being able to benefit town.

[IceDragon70]

I would say that we should definitely act as if they are a threat to town on day 1 when we are without further information. Doesn't stop me from presenting the possibility of it being otherwise, I'm just wondering why you specifically went with green colored role card as a scum claim instead of going red colored role card.

Agreed.

[IceDragon70]

@Mod: Is it public knowledge that disciples of benediction are threats to town

There.

I think it's pretty obvious that they are considering we're playing mafia, a game pitting uninformed majorities against informed minorities.

The stretch to entertain the idea they aren't reads to me as a possible play to fake a dumb not-benediction faction tell more than honest concern.

So why aren't you voting Rautherdir?

[IceDragon70]

But then again I didn't notice the flavour on alignment thing in setup so. If I'd seen that I'd have gone with the assumption that they are indeed scum and waited til day 2 when more information from public night actions is available to present it as a possibility depending on what happened.

I think the whole point of this setup is that there's no "town" and "scum", because the uninformed majority is actually "neutral" in the struggle between good and evil (judging by the fact that we're colored Ike third parties and Benediction is colored like town).

[IceDragon70]

It is public knowledge, read the setup post

Benediction and Malediction are different non town factions

Yes they are different factions, but they could be technically benign groupscum (like the pirates in abloaf).
however considering that Invocations is not even "good", I don't think that a "good" faction is benign towards us.

[IceDragon70]

I will say my role name sounds much more powerful then the actual ability actually is. I'm actually not sure at all how to use my role to any benefit, though it is role madness so uh... maybe there's some use to even something like what I have?

You're not the only one. And I have seen the most useless roles turning out to be very beneficial in the end.

I think it's not more letter eating like "scum not scum" it's more that you assume that one of teams could benefit town which is not assumption commonly made.

Given the name Benediction for the green team, this is an understandable assumption though. But I think this is exactly why we were told not to rely on flavor. I have been in games where good and evil did not match with town and scum factions, and this looks like one of them.

I have only ever seen one informed minority that was actually compatible with the town. But the twist was that they

were

still threats to the town, but they did not realize it. I figured it out because I was a serial killer in that game, and my win condition was weird too. We managed to organize a shared victory between town and all third parties, but when one of them found out I was right about us being considered threats, he blew up in a way that got him modkilled.

The stretch to entertain the idea they aren't reads to me as a possible play to fake a dumb not-benediction faction tell more than honest concern.

I disagree. If memory serves, this kind of confusion usually comes from an uninformed perspective, therefore Rautherdir probably is town.

By the way - it was not Enchant who associated green with claiming scum in the first place. They were echoing Dragon, who did it first.

Care to link that game btw? Sounds like a really weird game but a fun read.

[IceDragon70]

Still tempted to claim so that I can get info on how to even use my role effectively. I probably shouldn't so that I can be one of the less critical roles to eat a night kill but. I can just try to be town to eat a night kill instead soooo actually let me just claim.

I am a manifestation of Confirmation. I have the option to target a player each night to check if my action was successful.

I have no idea how this is even useful, and not even sure what the role is even called normally if it is an actual defined role in the wiki. Closest I could find was Visitor, but none of the modifiers function in a way to make it work like that.

It's called a Checker on the wiki. If this was a non-bastard, Normal game, your role would basically confirm the existence of roleblock. But we're explicitly told of the possibility of misdirection. HOWEVER, I would like to speculate (and this is just that - speculation, based solely on flavor and my own understanding of what I consider fun) that Benediction is not going to have a factional nightkill, but rather a factional roleblock (please gimmie some postgame credit if I end up being right).
In fact I had speculated that before you even claimed, but didn't say anything because there was no reason to believe that it is the case.

Also I think by claiming your role you basically made it useless since now you won't be roleblocked. Oh well.

[IceDragon70]

Guys we've had a fuckton of mechanical discussion but barely any scumhunting.
I'm gonna VOTE: ActionDan because I like their ISO the least.

[IceDragon70]

there could be modifiers like ascetic though.

Ehh... I guess that's true. So their role could technically check for ascetics and Rolestop targets.

[IceDragon70]

Sounds like a plan!
Rautherdir, who's the scummiest in your eyes? And why?
And who's the towniest in your eyes and why?

[IceDragon70]

Scummiest at this point I'd say is probably furtiveglance, they haven't really contributed much at all while still being present.

I agree that they have contributed very little, but I believe it is typical of their early-game play.
What do you think of ActionDan's ISO? To me it looks like a bunch of nothing trying to look like something.

[IceDragon70]

Also casting shade on an IC. Yes mod misdirection is possible, that doesn't allow outright lying I believe. Misdirection would be more like... well, saying Benediction is an informed minority but not mentioning if they are threats to Invocation, in the situation where Benediction is able to win with Invocation.

i interpreted 33 as a joke.

Same here.

[IceDragon70]

You raise it simply to say to leave it?

Pretty much. With a claim like this, I expect corroborating evidence to turn up sooner or later - such as the presence of a cop who can get those reads as results.

The point of the claim is that no such waste of power occurs, if you're Marked you lose a lot of damage when you miss.

The solution here is simply that the person must be shown a game over screen, probably before we get the choice of Sheol or Cathedral...

Why must thou talk in riddles?

[IceDragon70]

Okay guys, discussion is kinda dragging and I need to get productive, so I'm gonna hop off for now and come back to a hopefully more readable game state in a few hours.

[IceDragon70]

I think it's not more letter eating like "scum not scum" it's more that you assume that one of teams could benefit town which is not assumption commonly made.

I disagree, when I first saw the teams (in the OP) I was thinking it's probably about a coin toss on whether or Benediction can win with town, and it's clear Malediction can't.
Of course this might be incorrect due to bastard element of mod misdirection, but there's a reason I claimed Benediction and not Malediction in my opening post.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that there's a

possibility

of Benediction being able to benefit town.

I still don't see the reason frankly. If I wanted to claim scum in RVS myself I would have done it properly and go with the evil-sounding faction. Or at least make it a somewhat funny shitpost like enchant did.

You did notably gloss over my question, so I'll reiterate. Was you feysal vote serious or was it what you called "phase II rvs" in Dreams?

Phase II.

[IceDragon70]

Noted.

VOTE: Abnegation

How dare someone be presented before me in lexicographic order

Also it did but only because I voted you

Also, we haven't actually left RVS

Which is it atm?

@Mod: Is it public knowledge that disciples of benediction are threats to town

There.

I think it's pretty obvious that they are considering we're playing mafia, a game pitting uninformed majorities against informed minorities.

The stretch to entertain the idea they aren't reads to me as a possible play to fake a dumb not-benediction faction tell more than honest concern.

I woul also like to ask @dragon to specify which of those is the scummiest post. Because if it's the rvs one that feels omgus-y, and if it's the benediction one that feels chainsaw-y

~b

None of them feel scummy individually. I never even said ActionDan was scummy (look at my original vote on them if you doubt this).
I said I liked their ISO the least, meaning I had the least reason to townread them out of all people who participated thus far. I feelt there really wasn't any substance to their posts, which is maybe acceptable on page 1 or 2, but not so on page 4 (IMO). I wanted to see their reaction and draw them into the game.

[IceDragon70]

@Mod: Is it public knowledge that disciples of benediction are threats to town

There.

I think it's pretty obvious that they are considering we're playing mafia, a game pitting uninformed majorities against informed minorities.

The stretch to entertain the idea they aren't reads to me as a possible play to fake a dumb not-benediction faction tell more than honest concern.

So why aren't you voting Rautherdir?

I simply did not feel the compulsion to vote. I treat my votes as more committal than most and I'm only half scrutinizing the thread while I'm working. I thought it enough to state my opinion while being content to wait a bit longer for both an answer to my earlier inquiry to you and more posts in general.

Guys we've had a fuckton of mechanical discussion but barely any scumhunting.
I'm gonna VOTE: ActionDan because I like their ISO the least.

This vote is pretty solidly scummy. My ISO, as later claimed in post 146 is "a bunch of nothing trying to look like something." I had only made three posts at this point, an RVS vote, a question highlighting what seemed to me to be cognitive dissonance, and a post casting an aspersion on Rautherdir. None of these factors into your complaint about "a fuckton of mechanical discussion" which to me is what I would associate with "a bunch of nothing" in general. If the complaint is that I'm supposed to be contributing more 4 pages into D1, well that presents its own problems.

So I don't believe you're voting me for the stated reason. What I do think is happening here is that you're piggybacking off post 109 and invented a new reason to vote me to keep it fresh. In which case there's a rather poignant hypocrisy occurring, as in post 96 Keeper makes a similar if not even stronger denouncement of rautherdir without voting for him and there's no mention of it.

---

I'll address other posts / people later after work but wanted to get this one out now.

My complaint wasn't even directed at you, dude!
Why are you making it look like I was accusing you of something I wasn't?
I was literally saying I really don't see anything in your ISO, and that it's bothering me.
Also, I did want to place a semi-RVS vote on you in 109, but I didn't because I felt it was pretty weak.
Later on, I felt like the discussion was getting nowhere, so I decided I want to start a new wagon to generate content. At this point I quickly looked over the ISO's of all the players I wasn't actively townreading, liked yours the least, and made a vote on it.

[IceDragon70]

A few slots haven't posted so far, but of the posters that have, IceDragon and BlueSnakelet seem like most likely sus.

Please elaborate more on this.

[IceDragon70]

hi goldie!
(alianna here)

Waitttt
You are Alianna??
Oh my god I didn't see your signature lol.

[IceDragon70]

I townread Alianna

[IceDragon70]

A few slots haven't posted so far, but of the posters that have, IceDragon and BlueSnakelet seem like most likely sus.

is there a reason for that beyond just vibes?

Bit of meta behind the first, nothing behind the second

Huh?

[IceDragon70]

Of course this might be incorrect due to bastard element of mod misdirection, but there's a reason I claimed Benediction and not Malediction in my opening post.

@dragon - i'm pretty sure someone asked what that reason was, but i can't find it. i'd like an answer to that question.

Oh, because early on I assumed that Benediction could be benign and I thought it less risky to claim benign scum than evil scum?
Or maybe not less risky, but more interesting? Cause nobody would believe an evil scum claim but someone might react genuinely to benign scum claim?

[IceDragon70]

you called a sequence of 3 posts "a bunch of nothing trying to look like something." i think at least the first paragraph of actiondan's response is fair.

Yeah I guess that was a bit of an exaggeration, but I was desperately trying to get some Scum hunting happening. Prior to VOTE: 130 there was like, NO content.

[IceDragon70]

Oops. Wrong tag.

[IceDragon70]

you called a sequence of 3 posts "a bunch of nothing trying to look like something." i think at least the first paragraph of actiondan's response is fair.

Yeah I guess that was a bit of an exaggeration, but I was desperately trying to get some Scum hunting happening. Prior to 130 there was like, NO content.

[IceDragon70]

By which I mean no content beside mechanical talk.

[IceDragon70]

UNVOTE:

I would like a bit more info about IceDragon70's role, because that Benediction speculation must have come from somewhere.

Let's just say I wasn't one bit surprised about Rauther's role, and if you are invocation then you shouldn't be surprised either - I am detecting a theme here in Invocation's roles (I've taken the liberty to assume that Feysal's role conforms with the theme based on this post:)

I will say my role name sounds much more powerful then the actual ability actually is. I'm actually not sure at all how to use my role to any benefit, though it is role madness so uh... maybe there's some use to even something like what I have?

You're not the only one. And I have seen the most useless roles turning out to be very beneficial in the end.

Of course my theory might be a huge stretch, but we shall soon see.

[IceDragon70]

Btw, when did Feysal claim scum?

[IceDragon70]

Also: Feysal, what are your pronouns?

[IceDragon70]

Thirdly, I agree that 9/2/2 is most likely, but tbh I don't see much point in speculating about the numbers until we have some scum flips, or at least more understanding of how the scumteams work.

[IceDragon70]

A thought appears to be locked inside the Top Secret Room. Fortunately I have bombs.

It is possible for someone to be multiple non town alignments.

IDK, normally I'd say yes but Benediction and Malediction seem opposite.

[IceDragon70]

I am Invocation and I'm not really sure what you're getting at, IceDragon. All Rautherdir seemed to claim was that they were some kind of useless investigative right?

IDK, trying to figures out alignment by flavor even though I was warned against it.

[IceDragon70]

also, i don't scumread rauther, but this is all really textbook lamist. i'd appreciate a second opinion here.

Spoiler: quotes

Well. I might have still done it actually.
This was a decent way to break out of RVS I think, and I like doing stuff like that.

Maybe a rolestopper or ascetic I could still see, but... yeah. I mean I had no idea how to use my ability effectively anyways so uh... it was either claim to figure out how to even use my role or try and figure it out myself.

Well, the least I can do at this point is try and be helpful enough to town that I get shot for that reason.

The information that there are almost certainly roles that prevent actions from working is I think more valuable then keeping my role hidden as well, in retrospect. Plus, I can try to be as helpful to town as possible in order to eat a night kill for that reason even if not a powerful role. (The trick of course, is doing that, which I might not have the best track record of.)

I can do stuff like check ascetic or vet claims at least. Or just... gather information in general about other actions in play maybe.

Mass wittering would indeed be terrible.

I really need to make sure most of my posts are actually game advancing though cause what I have is my ability to contribute to town and an as-far-as-I-can-tell barely useful ability. I think I helped get town out of RVS though so I have done that at least!

I'm legitimately wondering if my inclusion is to subvert the practice of a single VT in role madness with just a very low powered ability instead. Or maybe my role actually has legitimate uses in this setup I guess I'll find out.

There have to be other investigative roles then just me though, because really. (I am a little bit salty about my role)


p-edit:
I accounted for this, but... I mean... that's a very weak if not detrimental version of a even/odd-night godfather if that's the case. I mean... why not just have it be a read as Invocation on those nights instead then. Unless one of the scum teams is benign, but even then we don't know that for sure, so. Either way it's negative utility in my eyes.

I don't think you should assume this role is useless, at this point in the game we don't know much about the setup, but as has previously been stated this could be used to confirm the existence of roleblocks, rolestops etc. roles that seem relatively useless can actually be really important depending on the setup.

I know, I'll try and use it the best way I can. If I can even figure that out. And just try to be as otherwise helpful as I can be regardless of how useful my role is.

Seconded. I'm glad you posted this; Rautherdir's posting seems to be written off as town by the likes of Furtive / Hugir and I think that's rather premature. Rauth's posting is currently is converging on 30% of the entire game but all but a handful of posts do not reference anyone's day play. Those that do are anemic: 103, 136, 151.

I think the best town case for Rautherdir is the fact they committed to a full claim this early. It's very rare for scum to do that. I do remain wary as Rauth's reason for claiming it doesn't make any logical sense (help with how to use it? Info for town that we have disruptive roles in a role madness game?) and I'm surprised a player with a 2016 join date didn't understand why it was suboptimal to claim with just these dubious benefits. Additionally in multiball giving an excuse for the other scum team to not target your slot has appreciable advantages.

I hope to be able to get a better read on the slot when their posts are less mechanically driven and actually scrutinize content not volume.

@Furtive and @Hugir why the townreads? I'm also especially curious as to Hugir's progression from Non-Benediction specifically to fully town.

---

Reading up and looking at other people now.

UNVOTE: ActionDan

[IceDragon70]

I'm finally seeing this game, why is the keeper being voted? I have yet to read this game

Read it.

[IceDragon70]

I'm almost sure The Keeper is affiliated with Invocation.

Based on what?

[IceDragon70]

Something related to what their role might be.

Why would you have any info on their role?

[IceDragon70]

The Keeper, I like the gimmick, but try and keep it on track, it's a little confusing.

Agreed

[IceDragon70]

Honestly I am barely having scumreads this game which is quite weird. I'll be taking my leave for the night, might do some iso diving tomorrow.

[IceDragon70]

@Mod, I will be V/LA until Wednesday

[IceDragon70]

I don't find 243 and 244 that convincing. You have said you didn't find my posts scummy and that you were exaggerating in 146. But in 146 you're still trying to push Rauth to judge my ISO by

Rauth's

own criteria for scumminess (136). It's hard for me to believe that your intention was anything other than Rauth wanting to find my ISO scummy since the words you used in 146 are tailored to fit his perceived sense of what's scummy.

Look, I know I sometimes come off as disingenuous in online mafia, but what I said is the truth.

I didn't see anything scum indicative about your first 3 posts, I simply saw nothing. And by pure gut I liked it less than Frutive's nothing ISO at the time (rn I actually like your ISO more than his), so I placed a vote there.
I didn't ask Rauth if they thought you were scummy, but rather if they didn't think you were a better vote than whoever they wanted to vote at the time.

Pedit: I just looked at the post and I didn't phrase it like that, so I can see where you are coming from. However that

is

what I was trying to get across. I guess I need to be more careful in how I phrase my questions in the future.

[IceDragon70]

What do you think of ActionDan's ISO? To me it looks like a bunch of nothing

trying to look like something

I mean, you were not just saying that it was nothing, you were saying (per the

underlined

) that it was malicious nothing.

~b

Yeah, you are right. Please forgive ne for I have sinned!

Anyways, the Rauth wagon seems interesting, lemmie just do a quick ISO of them and I'll tell you what I thibk about it.

[IceDragon70]

Ice can you specifically tell me what made my iso worse than Keeper's at the time?

Hi I've been away, only come back now.
To answer your question: I didn't actually look at Keeper's ISO - I think I had either missed them or otherwise had had a light town read on them. Right now however they are null and scum by default.

[IceDragon70]

Don’t like any of the current wagons?

I don't either tbh
I'm gonna finish catching up but if I don't see a wagon I like I'll have tonvote goldfish as well.

[IceDragon70]

Hmm. To be honest I was baiting to see who would agree with my stance or not, thus why I kept mentioning it as a possibility throughout the day. As mentioned Benediction would probably jump onto something like that as a chance to be town... so after reading through again (Unfortunately not everyone has commented on it, was hoping a bit more time would offer that but nope.)

Enchant I admittedly wasn't going to get much information on from this play given they were the person I pressured to do this. They handled it well enough though.
ActionDan also responded well to it, asking the mod directly.
furtiveglance made a fairly small post about it, but didn't entertain the possibility either.
Feysal admitted it was a point of understandable confusion but was on the side of it being both malign. (Though I like Feysal more then furtiveglance for town, despite the ordering I put here.)
The Keeper... I'll admit I'm not sure about their response, but I think they were saying they expected Benediction to be scum
IceDragon actually entertained the idea of Benediction being able to be benign

Hugir I'm not sure about, 124 might have been a typo of next instead of never, the sentence makes a lot more sense the second way. None of their other posts clarified their view of this.

I don't have any information from my play on other players as they didn't respond directly to it, nor have they posted much for other reasons as well.

No one else really commented about it... But I'll say that IceDragon also seemed to be trying to get town read by me earlier, and several other previously stated less then towny posts.
UNVOTE: Enchant
VOTE: IceDragon

Okay so it's this post that convinced Rauther was scum.
I know it sounds like OMGUS but I actually didn't even get to the vote when I saw they were Scum.
It's the fact that that instead of talking about reads or scum hunting, or doing anything that could progress thw game, they are just making a list of all the reactions to their "bait". And basically misrepreanting what other players said regardong benediction to fit the narrative that they are analysing and solving the game when they are clearly not. Like how does asking the mod about Benediction = townread??? Or else, how is it a "good response"?

They are also scummy for the fact that they are calling mechanical discussion a bait. That's just a lie.
And it is just IIoA, you know? "IceDragon entertained the idea of Benediction being benign". Cool? And...?

VOTE: Rauther

[IceDragon70]

Hi Dragon, welcome back

Cmon Dragon entertain me with claim.

~b

Hi Bianco, am I at E-1?

[IceDragon70]

About Ice I have a soft heart so I do like that he's taking responsibility for his sins at the least but the original awkwardness will just always linger for me. Things can always change though.

Appreciate it

[IceDragon70]

Day 1 Count IV

IceDragon70 (

E-1

) - ActionDan, Rautherdir, Abnegation, furtiveglance, Feysal,

Hell Froze Over

Rautherdir (1) - Enchant
Hugir (1) - The Keeper

Not Voting

- IceDragon70, BlueSnakelet, GoldfishFromTheMoon, Hugir, KawaiiKame

Notes

• With 13 remaining, it takes 7 to form a majority.
  
• Mod ISO is here.
  
• Tell me if any mistakes exist or questions missed.
  
• I am V/LA until Good Friday.
  
• Replacing Kawaii and Goldfish.
  
• Hell Froze Over is a disciple of
  Invocation

  .

Day 1

concludes in (expired on 2023-04-07 17:55:00)

yep

And is there intent to hamma?

[IceDragon70]

Cmon Dragon entertain me with claim.

Okay
All caught up now.
I am Ambition.
I don't really understand the relationahip between flavor and mechanics, because I basically prevent a player of my choice from being roleblocked. Which is just weird.

That was also why I speculated about scum having a roleblock and said I weren't surprised by Rautherdir's claim.

[IceDragon70]

Fine.
VOTE: Dragon, E-1

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

There's Enchant...
~b

You're almost better than I am at altslipping

[IceDragon70]

I love court proceedings!
What alignment are you?

Malediction, obviously. What else would prosecution be?

Anyway, enough joking, I see an off ramp out of RVS. What is this, we have an innocent child already?

I agree it's time to get off RVS, but how does saying "we have an innocent child already?" do that?
VOTE: Feysal

I also suspect that Enchant's greenscum claim makes them have >rand chance of being redscum, so I'm going to

FoS: Enchant

.

I guess you will be nightkilled

Nuh uh! You'll have to pretty ambitious to try and kill me tonight.

That was a pretty forced-sounding crumb btw

[IceDragon70]

Malediction sorry. I deliberately misspelled it to look like I'm not Malediction

I love that you are admitting it.
Wanna vote Rauther instead? Did you see my reasoning against them?

[IceDragon70]

I'm finally having a quick chance to read the game and not on phone.
And I think I'm beginning to see why Ice was being wagoned.

Page 2 was awkward, and

Guys we've had a fuckton of mechanical discussion but barely any scumhunting.
I'm gonna VOTE: ActionDan because I like their ISO the least.

is also awkward when he seemed engaged on that mechanical discussion.

With that said, I'm trying to focus on The Keeper posts but I played like 5 games of Binding of Isaac and the furthest I've reached was Mom's heart so I have no idea what he's referencing most of the time lol.

Why is it awkward?
I was participating in the discussion, didn't like the direction it was going, so took initiative to change it. It actually worked even though I am being voted for it now.

[IceDragon70]

Malediction sorry. I deliberately misspelled it to look like I'm not Malediction

I love that you are admitting it.
Wanna vote Rauther instead? Did you see my reasoning against them?

Sure, I can see that claiming to have been 'baiting' to explain away a previous statement could be seen as scum backtracking.

My best ChatGPT impression^

Seriously though, I have mixed feelings. In one of many games I lost recently as town, another player deliberately didn't share their true viewpoint in the hope that scum would act a certain way (Klick in Hollow Knight), but I don't think that's quite comparable to this instance.

I'll join you, why not?

If I had to choose another vote today, it would probably be Enchant. When Abnegation made that joke, I did actually ISO Enchant, and I didn't love what I saw. So maybe we could queue that one up for tomorrow.

VOTE: Rautherdir

Wow it is actually a good ChatGPT impression!

[IceDragon70]

Malediction sorry. I deliberately misspelled it to look like I'm not Malediction

I love that you are admitting it.
Wanna vote Rauther instead? Did you see my reasoning against them?

Sure, I can see that claiming to have been 'baiting' to explain away a previous statement could be seen as scum backtracking.

My best ChatGPT impression^

Seriously though, I have mixed feelings. In one of many games I lost recently as town, another player deliberately didn't share their true viewpoint in the hope that scum would act a certain way (Klick in Hollow Knight), but I don't think that's quite comparable to this instance.

I'll join you, why not?

If I had to choose another vote today, it would probably be Enchant. When Abnegation made that joke, I did actually ISO Enchant, and I didn't love what I saw. So maybe we could queue that one up for tomorrow.

VOTE: Rautherdir

I don't like queueing up votes, especially after Newbie 2114, but I am willing to look at an Enchant wagon.

Care to say what specifically don't you like there?

[IceDragon70]

Ice can you specifically tell me what made my iso worse than Keeper's at the time?

Hi I've been away, only come back now.
To answer your question: I didn't actually look at Keeper's ISO - I think I had either missed them or otherwise had had a light town read on them. Right now however they are null and scum by default.

Hah. I am amused.

Glad you are. Care to do anything to help me read you?

[IceDragon70]

Malediction sorry. I deliberately misspelled it to look like I'm not Malediction

I love that you are admitting it.
Wanna vote Rauther instead? Did you see my reasoning against them?

Sure, I can see that claiming to have been 'baiting' to explain away a previous statement could be seen as scum backtracking.

My best ChatGPT impression^

Seriously though, I have mixed feelings. In one of many games I lost recently as town, another player deliberately didn't share their true viewpoint in the hope that scum would act a certain way (Klick in Hollow Knight), but I don't think that's quite comparable to this instance.

I'll join you, why not?

If I had to choose another vote today, it would probably be Enchant. When Abnegation made that joke, I did actually ISO Enchant, and I didn't love what I saw. So maybe we could queue that one up for tomorrow.

VOTE: Rautherdir

I don't like queueing up votes, especially after Newbie 2114, but I am willing to look at an Enchant wagon.

Care to say what specifically don't you like there?

Why every time i don't hammer i regret it?

Why do you regret it? I am not voting you.

[IceDragon70]

You consider to vote me and stab in the back.

Yes i do regret it.

Nah I am not stabbing you in the back. I am just saying we shouldn't make up our mind to vote you tomorrow before we even see today's flip.
That literally protecting you from a miselim.

Anyway Enchant, thoughts about Rauther?

[IceDragon70]

@Abnegation would you be kind enough to do a non official VC? I am just lazy here.

[IceDragon70]

unofficial vc, at your service!

icedragon70 (4): actiondan, rautherdir, abnegation, feysal
rautherdir (3): enchant, icedragon70, furtiveglance
hugir (1): the keeper

not voting (5): bluesnakelet, goldfishfromthemoon, hugir, kawaiikame, hell froze over

Thanks!

@Blue, Kawaii, Hugir - may I have your thoughts on the Rauther wagon?
If you think it's a good wagon, why not vote it?
If you think it's bad, what's your alternative wagon?

[IceDragon70]

@Abnegation would you be kind enough to do a non official VC? I am just lazy here.

Why ask Abnegation specifically?

I know she loves doing them

[IceDragon70]

Cmon Dragon entertain me with claim.

Okay
All caught up now.
I am Ambition.
I don't really understand the relationahip between flavor and mechanics, because I basically prevent a player of my choice from being roleblocked. Which is just weird.

That was also why I speculated about scum having a roleblock and said I weren't surprised by Rautherdir's claim.

the flavour is that you give other people ambition to do their actions even if someone tries to stop them.

Makes sense i guess.

[IceDragon70]

it could be that they're scum and either invocation or the other scum faction has a roleblocker.
idk how that interacts with a checker.
my idea of setup design is to grab a bunch of roles and modifiers, throw them all in a blender, and hope the final product isn't too messed up.

How likely do you figure it is that scum would have this role?

[IceDragon70]

Also can I please ask what's exactly your reasoning for voting me? Is it just my interaction with ActionDan?

[IceDragon70]

icedragon70 is basically cleared of being green scum by claim.
i highly doubt benediction has both a role that can prevent someone from being roleblocked and a role whose sole purpose is to learn if it gets roleblocked.

Am I not also cleared of greenscum by interaction with Rauther? I wouldn't expect scum to omgus their partner when the deadline is near and there's probably better pushes.

[IceDragon70]

Insert flavour

Rautherdir,

Confirmation

, was erased.

Spoiler: Confirmation

Salutations, you are a manifestation of

Confirmation

!

Role Abilities:

• Benediction (Passive)
  : As a disciple of
  Benediction
  with …, you have access to a vacuum located here, where you will receive knowledge of your factional ability.
  
• Confirmation (Active)
  : As a manifestation of
  Confirmation
  , every Night, you may attempt to check if your action was successful on another concept or not.

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one disciple of
  Benediction
  remains and all other concepts are erased (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by posting in the

Benediction

vacuum or by replying to this PM with your role and alignment.

Also can I just say I had a moment of "fuck me we killed town" when I saw the green username here, then when I opened the spoiler I remembered we're playing with unorthodox alignment colors?
(This is not a slip of me being malediction btw, I just forgot).

[IceDragon70]

i am never alting again after this, excluding hydras.
i just had to because this account's name fits the theme perfectly.

It definitely does fit.

[IceDragon70]

Okay anyway, I am planning to do an analysis of the wagons from yesterday and then we see who could potentially be scum.

Just a note though: assuming 2v2v9, would it be dangerous to lim benediction over Malediction today?
Probably not but I am kinda tired rn so I'll do the math later or something.

[IceDragon70]

but you’re only half clear, so i’ll ask you a couple of questions.
- why the need to make a self-defense post towards someone who was clearing you of being green scum?
- was my mechanical reason not strong enough in your opinion?
- why the need to be so defensive in general (624, 625)?

not saying i scumread it, just interested in an explanation.

1. It wasn't self defence, I was just adding to what you said ig? I kinda planned to say it even before you mentioned me being cleared by mech.
2. Again, I kinda planned on saying it before, but you are right, I am actually cleared by mech and I didn't think of it that way though. I prefer to clear people by associatives anyway.
3. Where else have I been defensive?

[IceDragon70]

625 is not defensive, it's just me being pre-emptive in saying it's not a slip because I know this site well enough to guess at east 1-2 people will read that post and think it's a scumslip.

[IceDragon70]

Oh yeah I forgot another point.
@Abnegation, in regards to yoyr second point:
I'd rather not clear people by their claim in general because people can lie when they claim. So I think it's stronger to clear people by interaction with flipped scum.

[IceDragon70]

Hi everyone! I’ve read the whole game once, but I haven’t thought about it very hard lol.

My claims to fame this game are my Enchant and furtive townreads. I’ll throw in an ActionDan townread too.
Ice also had some moments where he pinged me as towny, idk could still be scum.

I’m also not super interested in clearing anyone because of mech, or at least not because of the claims we’ve had so far.

Care to elaborate about townreads?

[IceDragon70]

Specifically Enchant and Furtive

[IceDragon70]

it was a gamble i was willing to take because i thought your claim looked pretty legit.

Makes sense.

[IceDragon70]

Kawaii did not want this lim. I'm actually fairly confident that they would have preferred a nolim to it.
This makes no sense from a red, especially if it's true that they can't crosskill directly. This also makes little sense from blue; it's also an unfortunate stretegy for green, but at least it would make some sense.

I just read this and it made me come up with a rather wild speculation.
Assuming it's true scum can't crosskill directly, but still have a way to get the other scum killed (per the phrasing Rauth used), it's possible that each scumteam has a publishing cop on the other scumteam.
So basically my specuation is that Malediction can check if a player is Benediction, and post that info publicly.
If that's the case and they used it on The Keeper, then The Keeper would be mechanically confirmed not scum.
Of course it's just wild speculation so they are not actually confirmed, but I am just bringing this up as a possibility.

[IceDragon70]

but you’re only half clear, so i’ll ask you a couple of questions.
- why the need to make a self-defense post towards someone who was clearing you of being green scum?
- was my mechanical reason not strong enough in your opinion?
- why the need to be so defensive in general (624, 625)?

not saying i scumread it, just interested in an explanation.

1. It wasn't self defence, I was just adding to what you said ig? I kinda planned to say it even before you mentioned me being cleared by mech.
2. Again, I kinda planned on saying it before, but you are right, I am actually cleared by mech and I didn't think of it that way though. I prefer to clear people by associatives anyway.
3. Where else have I been defensive?

Oh yeah I forgot another point.
@Abnegation, in regards to yoyr second point:
I'd rather not clear people by their claim in general because people can lie when they claim. So I think it's stronger to clear people by interaction with flipped scum.

624 read a little odd to me because i'd just announced a townread on you and your response was to give me more reasons i should townread you.
i kind of like the follow-up though. you've made the distinction that i should clear you for one thing but not for another. i know that can technically come from either alignment but my gut leans town on it.

That's fair

[IceDragon70]

@IceDragon

Spoiler:

Don’t like any of the current wagons?

I don't either tbh
I'm gonna finish catching up but if I don't see a wagon I like I'll have tonvote goldfish as well.

Uhuuh can't expect a "I'll have to vote Goldfish" to not catch my eye! Why would my slot have been the vote of choice?

Honestly just a random pick because I was townreading most people except them, and wanted to basically start a fresh wagon that might generate more content.

[IceDragon70]

But I wasn't scumreading your slot.

[IceDragon70]

And IIRC Furtive was already voting there so it qould be a convenient wagon to start.

[IceDragon70]

Okay anyway, I am planning to do an analysis of the wagons from yesterday and then we see who could potentially be scum.

Just a note though: assuming 2v2v9, would it be dangerous to lim benediction over Malediction today?
Probably not but I am kinda tired rn so I'll do the math later or something.

Spoiler: i did the math

assuming 2v2v9. 1 green, 2 red, and 8 blue remaining.

d2 ---> lim green ---> green gone, 2v8. assuming 1 kill per night, the game proceeds as singleball with 2 scum and 2 safe mislims. third mislim is a loss. elo arrives on d5 at the earliest.

d2 ---> lim red ---> 1v1v8. assuming 2 kills per night that only hit town and we don't yeet any scum, d5 is still endgame but it's a weird prisoner's dilemma and the game basically becomes wifom city from then on. and this is role madness so it's even wifomier lol. if the green factional ability isn't a kill, it's a little more complicated.

wiping benediction off the board is better by virtue of being more straightforward, but i don't think a red scum lim is bad. it's just swingier and more complicated.

p-edit: feysal also did the math but in a less complicated and less mathematical way.

Thanks for the math, that does make sense.

[IceDragon70]

I do like Abnegation's analysis about Kawaii in 731, and I also thought Kawaii was relatively scummy at the end of D1.
Since there's no better wagon and I don't have any major suspicions, I am down to join the wagon.
VOTE: Kawaii

I will note however that I think we should work on more scumhunting and content generation, because the game almost feels a bit lethargic rn. Hopefully on Saturday I will be more available (this had been an extremely busy week for me), and then I'll see what I can get done with some ISO's and analysis.

Pedit: will read Aisa's wall tomorrow. Good night.

[IceDragon70]

Kawaii did not want this lim. I'm actually fairly confident that they would have preferred a nolim to it.
This makes no sense from a red, especially if it's true that they can't crosskill directly. This also makes little sense from blue; it's also an unfortunate stretegy for green, but at least it would make some sense.

I just read this and it made me come up with a rather wild speculation.
Assuming it's true scum can't crosskill directly, but still have a way to get the other scum killed (per the phrasing Rauth used), it's possible that each scumteam has a publishing cop on the other scumteam.
So basically my specuation is that Malediction can check if a player is Benediction, and post that info publicly.
If that's the case and they used it on The Keeper, then The Keeper would be mechanically confirmed not scum.
Of course it's just wild speculation so they are not actually confirmed, but I am just bringing this up as a possibility.

if that's true, what happened to the benediction cop?
or maybe they were roleblocked and that also explains why there was only one kill.
hmm.

I really wouldn't know, it's wild speculation as I said.

[IceDragon70]

I would be surprised if Kawaii flips invocation but that was weird.

[IceDragon70]

Fuck this.


I am Relation, basically parity cop of variant where i check relationship with previous target. My targets are:
N1: IceDragon. Nothing.
N2: Aisa. Shares alignment with IceDragon.

Wow! Thanks for clearing me but like why are you claiming???

Furtive just loverised me with self for fucking no reason so my chances to survive next night nosedived anyway.

[IceDragon70]

Fuck this.


I am Relation, basically parity cop of variant where i check relationship with previous target. My targets are:
N1: IceDragon. Nothing.
N2: Aisa. Shares alignment with IceDragon.

Furtive just loverised me with self for fucking no reason so my chances to survive next night nosedived anyway.

Wow! Thanks for clearing me but like why are you claiming???

EBWOP

[IceDragon70]

And I would certainly want your claim now, having damned our investigative.

I thought I was finna die last night so I wanted to take Enchant down with me!

But weren't you townreading Enchant? Wait let me just check your ISO again.

[IceDragon70]

"Why are you not voting Kawaii?"

I guess I'm wondering - does anyone here have any familiarity with Kawaii? Is their tone their usual town tone? Is this too easy? What alignment is everyone else? I don't really have a feel for this game so I'm not really aching to flashwagon Kawaii right this very second. But the people on the wagon have points.

On an unrelated note today I found out that it's pronounced WAH-gon not WAY-gon and I'm so upset

Sittin on a wagon
Drinking from a flagon
Accosted by a paigon
Shoot em with my ray gun

Game-advancing content: Kawaii green, Keeper + Enchant red

Sup yall

I'm alive and well

VOTE: Enchant

Nvm you were scumreading them.

But then what made you change your mind and vote the keeper instead of yourself or Enchant? Before the claim.

[IceDragon70]

Fuck this.


I am Relation, basically parity cop of variant where i check relationship with previous target. My targets are:
N1: IceDragon. Nothing.
N2: Aisa. Shares alignment with IceDragon.

Furtive just loverised me with self for fucking no reason so my chances to survive next night nosedived anyway.

Wow! Thanks for clearing me but like why are you claiming???

EBWOP

You either failed to understand the claim or are actually trolling me.
You are not clear.

Wasn't Aisa town???

[IceDragon70]

Fuck this.


I am Relation, basically parity cop of variant where i check relationship with previous target. My targets are:
N1: IceDragon. Nothing.
N2: Aisa. Shares alignment with IceDragon.

Furtive just loverised me with self for fucking no reason so my chances to survive next night nosedived anyway.

Wow! Thanks for clearing me but like why are you claiming???

EBWOP

You either failed to understand the claim or are actually trolling me.
You are not clear.

I just re-checked. She was. If I share alignment with Aisa, who is town, then by definition I am town. Aka clear.

[IceDragon70]

I stand by Furtive being today's better option

That kills 2 town for the price of 1

Sounds like it.

[IceDragon70]

Also for the sake of Feysal’s theory we should at least massclaim whether we can roleblock or not

Agreed

[IceDragon70]

I read the D2 finally and… really all I saw was nigh-unanimous “kawaii obv greenscum kthxbye xoxo”

I’ll have to go back to D1.

Yeah we all f'ed up there.

[IceDragon70]

I read a bit more last night.

I'm pretty on board with ice/furtive/enchant town with a small caveat that enchant might have been redirected n2. Not likely enough to worry about.

Red scum candidates:

ActionDan, Abnegation, Hugir, Feysal, FL, Keeper.

I was thinking before kawaii was erased and coming into today before enchant reveal that ice and the keeper had a good chance to be partners for a lot of reasons one of which was ice's scum cop theory's "major flaw" when attempting to clear the keeper. There was no reason in the theory that red scum couldn't use it on themselves. In any case ice very likely isn't scum at all, so this is shot otherwise i would have been distracted by it. However I do remember keeper and snakelet's interaction D1 and at the time it sounded to me something along the lines of "back off we're masons" (or similar) but with a parity cop out that's definitely not the case. Of the pool above those 2 strike me as much less town than the rest and that's currently my working theory. A more through rereading for me is in order though.

Green scum candidates:

ActionDan, Abnegation, Hugir, Feysal, FL

Sadly unless more roles come out to explain the lack of kills two nights in a row, the possibility of abnegation being green scum is quite plausible as feysal suggests. My heart doesn't agree but head does. Interactions with rauth and D1 wagonomics don't preclude this either (in fairness they don't preclude anyone aside from me, objectively).

If I were to vote right now, I think I'd vote FL just because that's probably the one person with the most scum equity to me of any color.

But will need to reread and I'll only have time Thursday night so 1.5 days away. If we make it to the weekend that would be great too

Cut: I cant roleblock

Good analysis, I also think Keeper has some scum equity, but as I am seeing the Feysal votes piling am gonna have a look at what's driving those.

[IceDragon70]

Could be a Weak role, or some way to light investigate you.

I am leaning town on Ab after the last couple pages. That’s good.

Strong town reads on Enchant, Keeper, Ab, and Hugir based on a mix of things. Ice Dragon by Mech, and likely not Green anyways.

VCA, actions, happenings, vibes, setup.

I do understand the Arsonist paranoia now, but I figure just accept it if so, and play as if it’s not until something shows us otherwise.

Care to explain Keeper townread? I don't see it.

[IceDragon70]

Aisa was townreading me.

Also, scum will obviously kill Enchant tonight and any claim otherwise is kind of outting.

True.

[IceDragon70]

Flyer wise,

Enchant couldn’t have done it.

Aisa couldn’t have.

Furt couldnt have.

I didn’t, and Ice couldn’t.

This leaves Keeper, Hugir, and ActionDan.

And Feysal?

[IceDragon70]

By the way, who sent me that mysterious flyer?

Feysal, was that you?

You figured out my crumb, did you? I was wondering if anyone was ever going to say anything about them, the Keeper never did.

I suppose it is time to claim then. I'm Propagation. I hand out flyers. I'm basically a fruit vendor with a different flavor. I've given out two, one to the Keeper, the second to you.

I think Feysal's like so obviously Green Scum I almost don't want to believe it.

Then don't, because I'm not. I mean, if you had accused me of being Malediction, that I could have understood, but this?

I wrote the original case against Rautherdir at a time when he was widely townread. If not for that, Rautherdir would not even have been an option at the end of the day. Yes, he managed to fool me because he was playing to his town meta, making me think we had two rival wagons on town, and I did not like having to hammer him. Look at my post 589 and tell me if that looks like I would know he was about to flip Benediction?

Where was the crumb?

[IceDragon70]

@Feysal, post 589 is actually weird because you are hammering a person you allegedly believe is town, and prior to that you were actively avoiding their wagon at a time when a lot of evodence against them existed. I don't see it as any sort of defense.
What I am more interested in is who do you think is scum here? And what are your thoughts on FlavorLeaf and ActionDan?

[IceDragon70]

I said the last part because the defense feels weird and Feysal isn't scimhunting anymore, it seems.

[IceDragon70]

I read the D2 finally and… really all I saw was nigh-unanimous “kawaii obv greenscum kthxbye xoxo”

I’ll have to go back to D1.

Yeah we all f'ed up there.

I disagree, Kawaii was really scummy.

True. But it still sucked to have miselimed them.

[IceDragon70]

Okay guys, since almost everyone claimed but not all, I would actually like everyone to claim at this stage.
Yes, it might give scum some knowledge regarding optimal night play, but I believe at least 2 scum haven't claimed and we might be able to fogure things out mechwise based on claims.
Also, I may have a mech-related way to confirm a certain claim, so we can get an additional confirmed town if we massclaim.

I will finish readong p43-44 shortly, and then I will post my idea of who is town and who is scum.

[IceDragon70]

I don’t think benediction would have a fruit vendor and checker as power that sounds kinda terribad

was just going to say this.
i think fey red is pretty likely.

What???
Don't you think they are town?

[IceDragon70]

Either I’ve been bamboozled hard before (both AD and Fey were strong townread D1 for me)
Or I’m being bamboozled hard right now (At least one of AD and Fey are town and I’m being rekt somewhere)

This is not a pleasant feeling

Yeah I am in agreement about them being previous townreads, and feeling slightly bamboozled, though I disagree that they have to be scum here.

[IceDragon70]

I don’t think benediction would have a fruit vendor and checker as power that sounds kinda terribad

was just going to say this.
i think fey red is pretty likely.

I think the roleblock reason isn’t strong enough to have their confidence with it.


It’s a solid possibility, but I’m just getting vibes of them using that as a strong base for a misfade push.

What's "misfade"?

[IceDragon70]

I have an idea that Keeper could've used the publishing benediction cop on himself.

@Mod, is there a possibility of any role abilities or factional abilities that can self-target in the game?

[IceDragon70]

ActionDan's 1063 is actually starting to convince me that Abnegation is greenscum.

[IceDragon70]

Time to do some mech speculation! Yay!

First, I would like to reiterate my desire that everyone claim here. I think there's a high possibility of a clear just based on claims, which atm I won't elaborate on.

Now, for the speculation:

Spoiler: night kills and roleblock

So, let's look at what's going on with night kills.
There are two scum groups, but there's only been one night kill every night. There are three possible explanations for that:
1. Only one scum group has a standard nightkill.
2. Nightkills have been somehow interrupted.
3. Scum targeted same person with night kills.

3 is ruled out due to Rauth explicity saying greenscum won't be shooting HFO N1, and HFO still being shot.

1 is possible, but feels potentially unfair to me, especially if one scumteam doesn't have a kill at all. It woud probably only be fair with an arsonist kill.
Maybe I am missing something though, so feel free to point it out if I am missing something.

2 has two possibilities I can see:
2a. scum were roleblocked, preventing the kill.
2b. kill target was saved / is BP.

If 2b, I would love doc/BP to claim so we don't miselim abnegation.
if 2a, then anyone who's roleblocked someone else than abnegation should claim now. Otherwise it is indeed confirmed that abnegation were roleblocked from doing the kill.

I would like to point out thougu that read wise, I still think abnegation is townie af, and I find it hard to believe we're in 2a, even though I've just said the other options are unlikely. So I would like any claims that disprove 2a to happen right now, if possible.

Spoiler: Keeper's Benediction clear

So we know Keeper is mod confirmed not to be Benediction. This confirmation came at the start of D2, and is probably the result of some night action.
Since nobody has claimed the ability, I'll assume it was used by scum, until someone claims the ability (during massclaim, which I'm still hoping to see).
Now, it can't really be used by Benediction because why would Benediction even have a Benediction cop? That would require a completely crazy mod that's out to get everyone.
No, I think it was used by Malediction.
Earlier I tended to think that Malediction investigating Keeper was indicative that Keeper isn't actually aligned with Malediction.
But right now I think that if anything, Malediction might have investigated themself in order to cause confusion and possibly even semi-clear Keeper - they knew it would cause some confusion since from interaction with Rauth it was already known Keeper wasn't green, and it would make Keeper look good.

Due to the above, I basically think redscum is Keeper and FL for now. FL for his predecessor's associative defense of Keeper.
Also Keeper is acummy in theor own right, for horrible playstyle and lack of reads.

VOTE: Keeper

(and guys, please claim your roles for the love of god)

[IceDragon70]

I think I'm just going to claim.

My role is Affiliation. Can target someone at night, and if they share Affiliation, they get put in a Vacuum together. Blue targeted Keeper Night 1, so I did see ActionDan mention something about noticing something with the two of them.

Unless you think I'm lying, this means Keeper/Myself are not scum together on a game design level.

You can see further that I knew Keeper wasn't the Flyer Vendor.

I also stated in that vacuum that Furt was lean scum prior to Furt's vote on me.

What does sharing affiliation mean?

[IceDragon70]

Like let me clarify my question: you say you get a vacuum if the targert "shares affiliation". What does that mean, mechanically?

[IceDragon70]

Hmm, is it possible Scum knew Enchant was Parity Cop?

probably.

Why? FL wants to strongarm Furtive into a red scum slot; what reason do you have to think this?

i said it's probably possible, not that they probably knew he was parity cop.
responding to the factional kill stuff in a bit.

I actually don't think it's possible, because if Furtive is redscum with one partner, and their role is loverizer, then the other scum would have to have a rolecop for them to know.
However, it's highly unlikely IMO to have a rolecop for 2 reasons:
1. Doesn't really fit in with the theme of this game of unique concepts like ambition, propagation, affiliation and even confirmation - none of these are normal, straightforward utility roles, but rather have a sort of a complex use to them. It just doesn't fit.
2. The other scum is more than likely to have some sort of roleblock, since nobody claimed roleblock and I feel it would be really weird if confirmation existed only to find that HFO is ascetic and/or to find that they are being blocked by Aisa's role. Mind you, the roleblocker wouldn't be Benediction because then it wouldn't make sense for Benediction to also have Confirmation.

Which ends up semi-confirming Furtive as town, unless scum!Furtive decided to make an extremely risky play, knowing the other scum team 100% doesn't have a way to kill Enchant.

[IceDragon70]

It’s a Conditional Neighborizer, essentially, where we can only neighborize with each other, if one of us target each other.

Oh okay gotcha.

[IceDragon70]

Well I think it's actually a real possibility that you aren't the same alignment, otherwise it would just turn you into masons.

Or am I dumb?

[IceDragon70]

I'll be able to post later, but can claim now. I'm meditation, self voyeur.

N1: disturbed
N2: not disturbed

As a voyeur you would know what action was done to you N1, right?

That makes me think mod didn’t tell me my full role and I’m actually a random redirector.

Can you please specify exactly what does your role PM say?

[IceDragon70]

he claimed he could prevent someone else from getting roleblocked. i'd think he would use it.
@icedragon - can you claim targets?

Yes, and now that everyone's claimed I might as well claim my

real

role.

Sound of other people saying "wait what?"

I'm not actually anti-roleblock, I'm anti-redirect. Like I choose a person and they can't be redirected.
I false claimed for several reasons:
1. I felt the false claim would sound more believable (it did). This might sound scummy, but there's actually town motivation not to be mislimmed. I mean this ended up causing Rauther to be correctly limmed.
2. It would cause scum to think twice about using roleblock due to WIFOM, which is actually good for town as it makes scum do non-optimum plays.
3. It would make scum not play around my anti-redirect.
4. It might lead to interesting situations where I can correctly claim later and prove someone as town/scum.
I actually believe no 4 worked because Hugir claimed redirector and I find it hard to believe that I will be given a town role that only counters a town role, rather than a scum role. Therefore I believe Hugir really is redirector, but they are scum.
Except I wonder what motivation does Hugir have to lie about who they redirected?
I find it highly unlikely we have 2 redirectors here, but a random redirect sounds even less likely. So for now willing to vote Hugir.
VOTE: Hugir



Oh yeah and my targets:
N1 - Abnegation
N2 - Aisa

[IceDragon70]

A weaker variant of Voyeur learns if a player was targeted (by anyone other than the Voyeur), but learns neither who targeted them, nor which actions were performed on them.

Huh

[IceDragon70]

Welp we (as in me and hebi both) thought he claimed that he himself can’t be roleblocked lmao

How would that make sense as a town role????

[IceDragon70]

and furtive is 1-shot.
if it wasn't keeper or icedragon, we've got a liar.

Indeed.

[IceDragon70]

Yeah

And why do you townread Blue?

[IceDragon70]

he claimed he could prevent someone else from getting roleblocked. i'd think he would use it.
@icedragon - can you claim targets?

Yes, and now that everyone's claimed I might as well claim my

real

role.

Sound of other people saying "wait what?"

I'm not actually anti-roleblock, I'm anti-redirect. Like I choose a person and they can't be redirected.
I false claimed for several reasons:
1. I felt the false claim would sound more believable (it did). This might sound scummy, but there's actually town motivation not to be mislimmed. I mean this ended up causing Rauther to be correctly limmed.
2. It would cause scum to think twice about using roleblock due to WIFOM, which is actually good for town as it makes scum do non-optimum plays.
3. It would make scum not play around my anti-redirect.
4. It might lead to interesting situations where I can correctly claim later and prove someone as town/scum.
I actually believe no 4 worked because Hugir claimed redirector and I find it hard to believe that I will be given a town role that only counters a town role, rather than a scum role. Therefore I believe Hugir really is redirector, but they are scum.
Except I wonder what motivation does Hugir have to lie about who they redirected?
I find it highly unlikely we have 2 redirectors here, but a random redirect sounds even less likely. So for now willing to vote Hugir.
VOTE: Hugir



Oh yeah and my targets:
N1 - Abnegation
N2 - Aisa

why did you target

me

n1? the miller claim? who fullclaimed on page 2?

I thought you might have an extra ability. Also, you were my best townread. Sowwwyyy.

[IceDragon70]

[IceDragon70]

Also, any thoughts on Hugir?

[IceDragon70]

This day is just full of surprises. I actually believed the role you claimed was a perfect complement to Aisa's. Was it Rautherdir's claim that gave you that idea?

Yes

[IceDragon70]

Lucid Dreamers marathon games

Is that where you control your powers?

[IceDragon70]

Welp we (as in me and hebi both) thought he claimed that he himself can’t be roleblocked lmao

How would that make sense as a town role????

It didn’t
That’s why we targeted you N2

Ah.

[IceDragon70]

Keeper targeted Aisa Night 1.


We lost ability after we got in vacuum.

Where’s the 2nd redirector ID was talking about?

I am not sure. If there isn't one then AD/Hugir is definitely lying, because FMPOV the bolded actions are confirmed:

Name - Role - N1 - N2

Feysal - Fruit vendor - The Keeper - Abnegation

Enchant - Parity Cop - IceDragon - Aisa

Aisa - roleblocker stuff - Abnegation - Abnegation

Kawaii - Neighborizer - NotAisa (redirected to Aisa)

The Keeper - Neighbor - Aisa - NoAction

Flavor Lead - Neighbor - The Keeper - NoAction

ActionDan - Voyeur - Disturbed - NotDisturbed

IceDragon - NoRoleblock - Abnegation - Aisa

Hugir - Redirector - Furtive - IceDragon

Furtive - Loveriser - NoAction - Enchant

Rau - Checker - Dead - Dead

Hell - Innocent Child - Stumped - Stumped

Abnegation - Miller - NoAction - NoAction

(Abnegation's action is confirmed due to being roleblocked)

On the other hand if there's a second redirector then they are 100% scum. And since the above actions are confirmed, it's definitely AD who is the second redirector here.

So in either case AD is redscum. I don't think I've messed anything up here, right?
VOTE: ActionDan

[IceDragon70]

@Furtive, you are right, it could be. I did mess something up.
So it's a 1v1 between them, then.

Hugir is scummier in my eyes so I am gonna vote them.

VOTE: Hugir

[IceDragon70]

Is there confirmed to be a second redirector? Where did this come from? Is there a Mech action im missing somewhere?

No, it's confirmed either Hugir is lying or there's a second redirector which would be ActionDan.

[IceDragon70]

@Furtive, you are right, it could be. I did mess something up.
So it's a 1v1 between them, then.

Hugir is scummier in my eyes so I am gonna vote them.

VOTE: Hugir

I'm not sure who I think is scummier between them

Neither is really towny

In times like these, you could use either ISO analysis or VCA.

[IceDragon70]

Is there confirmed to be a second redirector? Where did this come from? Is there a Mech action im missing somewhere?

No, it's confirmed either Hugir is lying or there's a second redirector which would be ActionDan.

What’s the lie?

Why does AD need to be the liar if Hugir is town?

Not doubting you by any means, just trying to get clarification on things.

Basically, Kawaii claimed to have been redirected from notAisa to Aisa. Hugir claims to be a redirector but not to having redirected Kawaii.
So either Hugir is lying, or there's a second redirector.
AD must be the liar if Hugir is town, because I am assuming (and I think it's a reasonable assumption) that every person has only one role, and all other players are confirmed (FMPOV) to have another role (or to simply not be the second redirector, in Abnegation's case).

[IceDragon70]

Keeper targeted Aisa Night 1.


We lost ability after we got in vacuum.

Where’s the 2nd redirector ID was talking about?

I am not sure. If there isn't one then AD/Hugir is definitely lying, because FMPOV the bolded actions are confirmed:

Name - Role - N1 - N2

Feysal - Fruit vendor - The Keeper - Abnegation

Enchant - Parity Cop - IceDragon - Aisa

Aisa - roleblocker stuff - Abnegation - Abnegation

Kawaii - Neighborizer - NotAisa (redirected to Aisa)

The Keeper - Neighbor - Aisa - NoAction

Flavor Lead - Neighbor - The Keeper - NoAction

ActionDan - Voyeur - Disturbed - NotDisturbed

IceDragon - NoRoleblock - Abnegation - Aisa

Hugir - Redirector - Furtive - IceDragon

Furtive - Loveriser - NoAction - Enchant

Rau - Checker - Dead - Dead

Hell - Innocent Child - Stumped - Stumped

Abnegation - Miller - NoAction - NoAction

(Abnegation's action is confirmed due to being roleblocked)

On the other hand if there's a second redirector then they are 100% scum. And since the above actions are confirmed, it's definitely AD who is the second redirector here.

So in either case AD is redscum. I don't think I've messed anything up here, right?
VOTE: ActionDan

>_>

Do you realize scum could just like, lie about something they might have done on the side via omission? (Assuming Hugir's telling the truth which is a decent sized if currently).

You mean that hypothetically, Furtive (just as an example) would have both loveriser and redirector? Or Keeper would have both affiliation and redirector?
It's possible but I don't really think it's probable. Of course I may be wrong here, but I think every player has one concept and that's all.

[IceDragon70]

Why couldn’t another player just have been lying?

Tell me which one and I'll tell you why - there's too many reasons for each individual player.

[IceDragon70]

The only Bastard mechanic present is the possibility of mod misdirection.

What do people think this might be referring to based on claims so far?

To me, from this, it would make sense if one or both Affiliation players were not Invocation.

Agreed.

[IceDragon70]

I would lean AD over Hugir, though. A bit weird considering AD had been getting a little townier for me + him seemingly defending Hugir.

Are you saying your own lean on AD is a bit weird?
Why are you leaning AD in the first place?

[IceDragon70]

Wait FL, big question:

Did keeper tell you they neighborized Aisa but didn't tell you about the flier?

[IceDragon70]

I wonder if there's a possibility that scum have a redirector ability as a factional ability. I mean this would imply Hugir is scum just for claiming it still so.. meh.

Yeah, this was my reasoning as well.

[IceDragon70]

That's my biggest hangup: there's no real reason for ScumHugir to claim any of that.

True.

So should we go for AD, as I originally suggested?

Also, I had a thought that just maybe Kawaii targeted goldfish and didn't realize Aisa was the same slot? It's a bit of a crazy theory, but I'm not putting it beyond Kawaii.

[IceDragon70]

him seemingly defending Hugir.

I'm just thinking about my own case, like I know something unclaimed targeted me N1. Thus there has been a lie by omission already

Who do you think it is?

[IceDragon70]

Why wouldn't Hugir's last-to-claim not knowing Ice countered redirectors be even safer?

It is safe, which is why I saved my own claim for last.

I'm pretty sure it's a 1v1 between the two of you either way.

[IceDragon70]

It's possible ActionD and Aisa were bus driven or something Night 1.

To me, the only possible culprit is still Hugir, no? Unless it's a factional busdrive?

You know what, it's getting really late but I have an idea. I saw your speculation of 2-3-8, and now I want to just post all possibilities I can see for scum abilities and we'll see if it leads somewhere.
But I'll do that tomorrow since it's freaking late.

[IceDragon70]

I am a bit (very) late to post here but I just wanted to say: I love how our theories about the arsonist nightkill or factional roleblock were completely off, and it was just poison. I also feel sad that I accidentally flaked the game in D3 because I was calling to lim between Hugir and ActionDan, and I feel if I had been active I might've been able to prevent the Abnegation lim