Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[Adel]

Death Scene

Kison, a vanilla townie, has been killed

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votecount as of post 753

_{with 11 alive, 6 will lynch before deadline}

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¬SensFan:

2

:roflcopter, Yosarian2
Battle Mage:

2

:DrippingGoofball, Korts
Korts:

1

:Raging Rabbit,
DrippingGoofball:

1

:Battle Mage,
Yosarian2:

1

:vollkan

No Lynch:

none

not voting:

4

:destructor, Elmo, populartajo, SensFan,

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Day 2's deadline is December 26th at 22:48 (UTC)

Countdown timer to deadline

[Korts]

Ok so I was wrong.

[Adel]

ANd yeah, Sensfan is lurking.

Vote:Sensfan

Mod:Could you please prod Sensfan?

It hasn't been 72 hours yet since I last prodded him.

One more prod for him will result in immediate replacement.

[DrippingGoofball]

Wrong about what?

[Korts]

I have this vague feeling Kison is scum. I dunno why, but I'll definitely look into this gut read properly when I have normal access (I'm currently through a proxy site right now, my brother blocked MS and the searchword "proxy" because apparently I'm spending too much time on MS...)

[DrippingGoofball]

Kison was very townie. This was not a vig kill.

[Yosarian2]

Kison was very townie. This was not a vig kill.

:eyebrow:

I never thought Kison was scummy, but clearly a lot of people did. What makes you assume a vig wouldn't want to kill him?

[DrippingGoofball]

I never thought Kison was scummy, but clearly a lot of people did. What makes you assume a vig wouldn't want to kill him?

There was a host of better candidates to choose from.

[Raging Rabbit]

Quick recap on Korts, I really don't have the time for quote brackets - posts lots but doens't say very much, he comments on a lot of "soft" issues and asks lots of questions, which don't commit him to anything but give off the appearance of active scumhunting. His actual vote record is two random votes on Kison and BM, a bad case on Guardian for being "non-comittal" which he quickly retracted but didn't unvote, a worse case on BM, always a comfortable target, for a bunch of non-tells that he later claims to have conceded, but didn't unvote because he "didn't see a better place" for his vote, then a weak OMGUS attack on me which he quickly retracts as well, a self preservation vote on CKD without ever seeing the case on him, and now he goes back to BM without even explaining why, after all the reasons for his earlier BM vote turned out null. Also there's the bad logic behind his town read of DGB, which could easily be buddying up. I don't think he's at all concerned with actual scumhunting.

I agree with DGB, Kison is a bad vig candidate and since vigs also have no motive to kill early in the day it was very likely a scum kill as well.

[destructor]

If Sens posts again and doesn't start contributing, I'm up for lynching him. But Yos' vote for him seems lazy. His whole play so far this game seems lazy. It really doesn't feel like Yos is trying to catch scum. When I look back at his case on me, it still looks like a big show for all the reasons I've stated. Given that ckd was town his case on me obviously doesn't stand, but rather than searching for a new case, he goes on easy mode and joins a lurker wagon.

Yos, if Sens has flaked, will you still vote his replacement? Why?

BM:

Why do you continue to avoid explaining why you thought ckd was town?

[DrippingGoofball]

BM:

Why do you continue to avoid explaining why you thought ckd was town?

He

knew

.

[populartajo]

CKD and Kison both vanillas. Meh. Will reread the game knowing this.
For now, the most possible thing is prob one scum in the CKD wagon.
Still thinking that rolf is town. I can understand why he pushed that wagon cuz I did it too. Im thinking this CKD and friends vs rolf and friend thing is a town vs town fight with some infiltrators and some scum avoiding direct implicaton
Regarding, Sens, Not so happy lynching a lurker. Id prefer a replacement or massive prodding.
..............
Im happy with this.

Vote : BM

DGB has hypnotized me with his new santa hat and BM is making no sense. Also, for some reason, he wasnt reading the game and its bringing dumb scenarios to make DGB look bad. Never knew what was his real stance in the CKD-rolf affair.

[Yosarian2]

When I look back at his case on me, it still looks like a big show for all the reasons I've stated.

A big show? All I did was note (accuratly and correctly, mind you) the behavior you did that I thought was strange, speculate about one possible cause of it, and then try to pin you down to taking a postion on CKD. You were the one who made "a big show" out of it, fighting me in a borderline OMGUS way for about 10 pages while refusing to answer simple questions, and spending the whole time acting like I was making stuff up when I pretty clearly was just stating clear and obvious facts.

You keep accusing me of trying to "create a big show", but you have yet to explain exactally why you think anything about what I did in questioning you yesterday was scummy (keeping in mind that "scummy" means "more likely to come from scum then from town").

Given that ckd was town his case on me obviously doesn't stand, but rather than searching for a new case, he goes on easy mode and joins a lurker wagon.

Protip: A lurker wagon is always the right move.

Well, not quite, but certanly when you get to day 2 and a person still hasn't contributed much of anything, the town needs to do something about it. Letting someone get away with lurking like that is just incredibly bad for the town, and towns that do that almost always lose to lurkerscum. Want, like, 10 or 20 examples of why letting lurkers lurk is an incredibly bad idea?

Yos, if Sens has flaked, will you still vote his replacement? Why?

Well, half the reason I'm voting him is for lurking, but way he didn't really contribute much even when he was around is a scumtell in any case. So, we'll see; I'll probably at least keep my vote on until we hear from his replacement, unless something better comes along.

[destructor]

... I pretty clearly was just stating clear and obvious facts.

???

You keep accusing me of trying to "create a big show", but you have yet to explain exactally why you think anything about what I did in questioning you yesterday was scummy (keeping in mind that "scummy" means "more likely to come from scum then from town").

???

You're being pretty liberal with your use of the word "fact".

Off the top of my head:
You said I "dropped my suspicion of ckd

completely

." This was NOT a clear OR obvious fact.
You said I was "trying to get people to switch their votes off ckd." This was also not a clear or obvious fact.
I maintain that both of these were clearly and obviously untrue and I say the fact that

no one else

expressed any agreement or support for your case is a testament to this.

Why was this more likely to come from scum? Because your read of me was so counter-intuitive that I suspect you have to

try

and make it out like you did. Townies don't need to try and make someone look more suspicious than they are.

Protip: A lurker wagon is always the right move.

I'm all for lynching lurkers and have seen scum lurk to victory (SensFan himself, in fact), but Sens is looking more like a flaker than a lurker right now. I would call him a lurker if he'd been posting enough to avoid prods without really contributing, which is more likely to be insidious, as opposed to not posting at all to the point of replacement, which is plain flaking.

I want to vote you, but I need to work vollkan out. =/

---

Courtesy of Kison's 691...

Group A

(People that were on ckd's wagon at some point in Day 1):
roflcopter
Yosarian2
populartajo
Korts
vollkan
DGB
destructor

Group B

(People that were never on ckd's wagon):
Elmo
Raging Rabbit
Kison - town
BM
SensFan

---

Suspects from Group A:

Yosarian2
Korts
vollkan

rofl and DGB seem like good guys to me. Tajo seems weakly townish.

Suspects from Group B:

BM
SensFan
Elmo

Sens and Elmo are there by virtue of inactivity.
Raging Rabbit hasn't done anything scummy, so far as I can remember. I think he's been kind of light on posting, though.

I don't think that all of Group A could be scum together.

Of Group B, I noted Elmo saying he might vote Yos but never getting around to it. He did vote for Korts pretty much all through Day 1, so if Yos and Korts are scum together, I'd say Elmo is pretty clear. BM is being nonsensical and evasive. Sens is not here.

With 14 players, a scum group of three seems reasonable. I don't know if my head can get around sorting that list into trios right now.

@ Everyone

Which of the six I've named do you think would give us the most insight to the others' alignments if lynched?
That is, I think we should lynch one of those six and focus on narrowing that list down.

[vollkan]

I agree with DGB, Kison is a bad vig candidate and since vigs also have no motive to kill early in the day it was very likely a scum kill as well.

Agreed. Kison wasn't scummy in the least, yet alone to the degree which would warrant such an early kill.

A big show? All I did was note (accuratly and correctly, mind you) the behavior you did that I thought was strange, speculate about one possible cause of it, and then try to pin you down to taking a postion on CKD. You were the one who made "a big show" out of it, fighting me in a borderline OMGUS way for about 10 pages while refusing to answer simple questions, and spending the whole time acting like I was making stuff up when I pretty clearly was just stating clear and obvious facts.

You keep accusing me of trying to "create a big show", but you have yet to explain exactally why you think anything about what I did in questioning you yesterday was scummy (keeping in mind that "scummy" means "more likely to come from scum then from town").

This isn't true at all.

As I said before, Des questioning you on other people is completely reasonable. And, it's a necessary implication from his identifying your vote as "gut" and noting the lack of input from you that he wanted to know more of your thinking.

Hardly "clear and obvious facts"

[Yosarian2]

Off the top of my head:
You said I "dropped my suspicion of ckd

completely

." This was NOT a clear OR obvious fact.

(sigh) We've been over this like 20 times....why do I have to keep explaining myself over and over again here? How many times do you want to go through this.

Yes, it is a clear and obvious fact that you never mentioned any suspicion on CKD again after that point. That is what I meant when I said you "dropped your suspicion". As I've already explained.

You said I was "trying to get people to switch their votes off ckd." This was also not a clear or obvious fact.

No, that would fall under the catagory of "speculating about the causes behind your actions". Which is, probably the best way to catch scum; you look for actions that don't make sense to you, and then you try and figure out if there's a probable scum motivation for them.

The fact that you're still OMGUSing me about this, even after the argument has become obsolete, really dosn't make you look good, destructor; are you really that touchy about anyone suspecting you at all?


[quote[I maintain that both of these were clearly and obviously untrue and I say the fact that

no one else

expressed any agreement or support for your case is a testament to this.[/quote]

No. The first one is clearly and obviously true. With the second one, the factual observation was that you were questioning people on CKD's wagon in such a way as to find out who else they might be willing to lynch; the rest was speculation about your possible motives.

And again, "No one else agreed with you, thererfore you're scum!" is a horribly flawed argument, and I'm not sure you realize that.

Why was this more likely to come from scum? Because your read of me was so counter-intuitive that I suspect you have to

try

and make it out like you did.

Um...what? "counter-intuitive"? It was an entierly logical interpretation of a possible motive for your actions. Why is it you don't see that?

Townies don't need to try and make someone look more suspicious than they are.

I don't even know what that means; townies clearly do need to look at people carefully, figure out who might be scum, and comment on their suspicions.

I'm all for lynching lurkers and have seen scum lurk to victory (SensFan himself, in fact), but Sens is looking more like a flaker than a lurker right now.

What do you think about his contributions before November 29th, his last post, then?

---

Courtesy of Kison's 691...

Group A

(People that were on ckd's wagon at some point in Day 1):
roflcopter
Yosarian2
populartajo
Korts
vollkan
DGB
destructor

Group B

(People that were never on ckd's wagon):
Elmo
Raging Rabbit
Kison - town
BM
SensFan

---

Suspects from Group A:

Yosarian2
Korts
vollkan

Why are you looking at the people CKD's wagon, and not at the people on the equally large and equally wrong Kison wagon? YOu realize he was townie as well, right?

[Yosarian2]

As I said before, Des questioning you on other people is completely reasonable.

Did I ever say he was scummy because he questioned me? Of course not. I was looking for a possible pattern in behavior, which was why it was at all worthy of note.

Me questioning DES about the reasons behind his actions, and about his opinion on CKD, was also completly reasonable.

[Korts]

note: I promise to catch up with what I have to and post something of content tomorrow or the day after that.

[DrippingGoofball]

Why are you looking at the people CKD's wagon, and not at the people on the equally large and equally wrong Kison wagon? YOu realize he was townie as well, right?

Show me this wagon. As far as I can tell, only Guardian and myself voted for Kison. That's hardly a wagon.

[DrippingGoofball]

note: I promise to catch up with what I have to and post something of content tomorrow or the day after that.

^^^ scum ^^^

[Korts]

wow what a scumtell I dropped there, you got me

[DrippingGoofball]

wow what a scumtell I dropped there, you got me

Those promises are rarely kept. It's called 'active lurking.'

[Battle Mage]

CKD and Kison both vanillas. Meh. Will reread the game knowing this.
For now, the most possible thing is prob one scum in the CKD wagon.
Still thinking that rolf is town. I can understand why he pushed that wagon cuz I did it too. Im thinking this CKD and friends vs rolf and friend thing is a town vs town fight with some infiltrators and some scum avoiding direct implicaton
Regarding, Sens, Not so happy lynching a lurker. Id prefer a replacement or massive prodding.
..............
Im happy with this.

Vote : BM

DGB has hypnotized me with his new santa hat and BM is making no sense. Also, for some reason, he wasnt reading the game and its bringing dumb scenarios to make DGB look bad. Never knew what was his real stance in the CKD-rolf affair.

Kills are made in real time. Therefore we should be able to get some leads from who is online when the kill is submitted. Notice that you criticise my reasoning for voting DGB, perhaps justly, but then dont criticise her for having no reasoning whatsoever. Nice...

Unvote, Vote: Yos

BM

[DrippingGoofball]

Unvote, Vote: Yos

No reason.

Can we kill BM already?

Hey Yos, are you scum or town? You're trying to derail BM's wagon in favor of a lurker wagon, and here's BM, bus'ing you. You scumbags should have a little private talk and get your act together, or we're going to have to lynch you all.

[Battle Mage]

The last sentence of 769, combined with his presence online at the time of the kill submission make me think he is a possibility for the culprit.

DGB, you really ought to consider whether not giving reasons with the original vote is a towntell or a scumtell for me. And possibly seek counselling, because im starting to worry you've lost the plot and actually believe half the stuff you come out with... 0.o

BM