Mini 650: Over

[omni]

KrisReizer may need some explaining too for just following Light-Kun with no real explanation there

having said that it's clear that post 42 was very scummy, at the least loose reasoning.

FoS - Light-Kun

[[jas]]

Vote Count the Second

FlyingFoxBat (2) - FlyingFoxBat, dalt54321
omni (2) - Inquisitor JL, Light-kun
Light-kun (2) - Kmd4390, sirdanilot
KrisReizer (2) - Brandi, OverCaffeinated
sirdanilot (1) - Omni
Kmd4390 (1) - KrisReizer
Inquisitor (1) - hitorgoroshi


With

12

alive it's

7

to lynch!

[Kmd4390]

A self-vote that was fixed 1 minute later wasn't accidental? What are you suggesting it was?

[KrisReizer]

Light-Kun...what the hell, man? It's like you're trying to suspect as many people as you can, so you can claim "reason" to bandwagon anyone you like at a moments notice. Townies need to hit the scum, scum can hit anyone. Post 42 strikes me as really scummy.

FoS: Light-kun

Well, to be honest, Light-kun didn't really say much. Just that he didn't like OC's joke post and that Omni was lurking. He put a pressure vote on Omni to induce him or her to participate. The other thing you should remember is that because anyone could be scum, everyone is a suspect. LK checks out.

Oh, and because the votes are starting to fly around,

unvote

.
(Don't want to keep the random vote parked.)

[KrisReizer]

The N is for New York. It is a Yankees logo. If you don't know that, I am offended.

Oh, hush. It was just a joke.

So my two posts and two lines of commentary are worse than inquisitors one post with one line, that's an interesting view you have there.

So I'm intregued why I was the one singled out by all this unless It isfor you knowing that he is scummy as well so you'll just target me as a result.

As for the lack of commenting, I just don't see much to comment on in this random voting phase and I'm just naturally a man of few words, but since we appear to be out of that phase I'll be commenting a lot more.

Well, there's a general view that lurkers are scum because they don't help the town. It seems misguided to me, hence why I didn't think it a good idea to jump on your bandwagon so quickly. But, now that we've got you posting, things should go a little differently.

[Kmd4390]

Oh, hush. It was just a joke.

I know it was a joke. If you could see my face when I was typing that, you would know I was smiling at it.

[someone2]

I will start by unvoting, since random stage is over

unvote

For me the scummiest player now is Kmd. He has some posts, but most are meaningless posts talking about his avatar...Just trying not to seem lurking? Oh, and sometimes he had things like "That self-vote was funny" I just dont see any effort of participation ( I didnt participate much me too, but I was too busy to post, which is not his case cause he have made lots of posts, but without content...)

But the scummiest of his posts was post 52. Why did you feel the need of defending his accidental random vote?I dont find anything suspicious in his self-vote, but maybe his answer would have made me change my mind. However, now he doesn't have to answer, you did it for him!

[hitogoroshi]

I'll join the random-vote-be-gone movement, then.

unvote

And someone2, what exactly do you mean by "content"? It's page 3. Are you really saying "he's suspicious because he posts a lot"? Or is he suspicious because he's not throwing out wild accusations?

And post 52 makes total sense. He's pointing out that the self-vote is not suspicious. Why would it be? Was he thinking, "HAHA, I AM SCUM BUT NO ONE WILL POST VOTE LIGHT-KUN OH SHI-"? Now, I still think post 42 is a scummy looking post, but the random vote doesn't mean anything.

[hitogoroshi]

EBWOP

For clarity, when I say

Was he thinking

I'm referring to Light-Kun.

[someone2]

Hitogoroshi, I find him suspicious because he posts without actually saying anything. It's just like saying: "Hey, I'm here, I'm not lurking, but I don't want to help the town!" I know it's page 3, but random vote is now over.

I totally agree with what Kmd said, but I think Light-Kun could have answered that, so why Kmd feeled obliged to defend him by answering the question that was adressed to Light-Kun? Maybe, we don't know, Light-Kun had another reason for this self-vote ( I find it quite strange, cause it's the first time I see someone self-voting, and now there's two self-votes in the three first pages of the game...)we're not in his head, but if this was a scummy action, Light Kun would have had to find an answer, and that's a situation where scum can easily slip. However, now that Kmd protected him by answering the question instead of him, he no more have to fear that slip possibility. Briefly, I just tried to say it seemed like a scum defending his buddy.

Oh and I forgot:

vote:Kmd

[Brandi]

Intelligence IS a sign of scum, but only if it is intelligent that only scum players (and mod) could possibly know.

WRONG

SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE

is

sometimes

a sign of scum. But definitely

not

intelligence. The mafia are not the only ones who are capable of knowing things that the rest of the town do not. Cops and Doctors, for example, have night actions which can be used to retrieve helpful information for the rest of the town.

If I were scum, I would roll dice, and disguise it with some crap reason.

I'll be sure to take note of that next game I'm in with you. ;P Really though, saying "Oh if I were scum I'd do this..." really doesn't mean anything at all. BTW, if you roll a dice to random vote, the DICE

IS

the reason for the vote.

I don't like Omni's lack of commentary and interaction.

Let the mod take care of the inactive players. If the only reason you are voting for Omni is the amount of content and not the content itself, thats pretty pointless and kind of scummy. =P

Aaanyway, Light-kun's right. Omni? Care to show us you're not scum?

Um hello? Way to make zero sense. Inactive != scum. Active != town. Its what is

in

the CONTENT, not the

amount

of such, that is the decider. How about instead of 'show us you're not scum' you say "Omni? Care to post more content so we can get a decent analysis?"

Obviously I don't approve of people just not posting hardly anything at all. But I don't approve of people finding that in itself to be a definite scum tell either.

@someone2:
There is nothing scummy about someone defending another persons actions unless they are CONSTANTLY taking up for them after every little spoken suspicion.

[omni]

The N is for New York. It is a Yankees logo. If you don't know that, I am offended.

Oh, hush. It was just a joke.

So my two posts and two lines of commentary are worse than inquisitors one post with one line, that's an interesting view you have there.

So I'm intregued why I was the one singled out by all this unless It isfor you knowing that he is scummy as well so you'll just target me as a result.

As for the lack of commenting, I just don't see much to comment on in this random voting phase and I'm just naturally a man of few words, but since we appear to be out of that phase I'll be commenting a lot more.

Well, there's a general view that lurkers are scum because they don't help the town. It seems misguided to me, hence why I didn't think it a good idea to jump on your bandwagon so quickly. But, now that we've got you posting, things should go a little differently.

But that's my point I'm not even close to the most inactive, that's why it's so intreguing that Light-kun, with you as his cronie have it in for me I just don't understand that at all, it's so odd that I've been targeted there, why was my 'inactivity' (even though I've posted almost every day) worse than people who I don't think have posted yet if I'm scum they'd have to be all the more so on that theory. You haven't 'got me posting' I was always posting, you've just given me reasons to write essays in my posts rather than jokes, because there's not really a great deal to comment on in the random phase.

oh and

unvote

[Kmd4390]

I will start by unvoting, since random stage is over

unvote

For me the scummiest player now is Kmd. He has some posts, but most are meaningless posts talking about his avatar...Just trying not to seem lurking? Oh, and sometimes he had things like "That self-vote was funny" I just dont see any effort of participation ( I didnt participate much me too, but I was too busy to post, which is not his case cause he have made lots of posts, but without content...)

But the scummiest of his posts was post 52. Why did you feel the need of defending his accidental random vote?I dont find anything suspicious in his self-vote, but maybe his answer would have made me change my mind. However, now he doesn't have to answer, you did it for him!

Well, first of all my joke vote is still on as well so

unvote

As far as the accidental self vote, I wasn't trying to defend whoever did it, I was saying that it makes no sense to try to build a case on that. It was fixed immediately and I think it was clearly an accident.

I know I haven't added much content but that's because there isn't much going on. I haven't seen anything particularly scummy yet. When I do, you can be sure that you will hear it.

Hitogoroshi, I find him suspicious because he posts without actually saying anything. It's just like saying: "Hey, I'm here, I'm not lurking, but I don't want to help the town!" I know it's page 3, but random vote is now over.

Ok, when did I say I won't help the town? I just don't see anything yet. Everything so far has been either random or trying to make accusations just to get the game going.

I totally agree with what Kmd said, but I think Light-Kun could have answered that, so why Kmd feeled obliged to defend him by answering the question that was adressed to Light-Kun?

I wasn't answering any questions. I was asking why some one would go after Light for something like that. I didn't see any point in it.

Maybe, we don't know, Light-Kun had another reason for this self-vote ( I find it quite strange, cause it's the first time I see someone self-voting, and now there's two self-votes in the three first pages of the game...)we're not in his head, but if this was a scummy action, Light Kun would have had to find an answer, and that's a situation where scum can easily slip.

How would it benefit scum to self-vote and then one minute later unvote and vote for some one else?

[KrisReizer]

@ Brandi: I'm of the same opinion entirely, hence why I opted to pressure with a forceful statement rather than a vote.

@ Omni: I'm hardly Light's cronie. You had said little, so I gave you a poke. Now you're talking more. That's pretty much the end of it. I don't think any more on the subject of your 'lurking' will be very productive.

It does seem to me that, thus far, people are reading drastically into very small actions. It also seems to me as though OC has had his highly suspicious post # 32 conveniently sidestepped. Let's look at it again, shall we?

Anyone who uses the term "Heuristic Simulation" in a mafia game is way to smart to be just an average townie. Now the odds are probably close to even on a power role verse being scum, but the impact of lynching a scum on day one is much greater to our success of winning then losing a power role.

To begin, vocabulary does not have the slightest bit of connection to whether a player is town or scum, nor does it indicate a power role. Second, your argument about the impact of a scum lynch seems half-baked to me. If there is a doctor, that's a possible NK stolen from the scum each night. If there's a cop, that's a ton of information. Townie power roles seem to me to be much more beneficial than reducing the scum population by one, which will not affect night kills, which are an automatic townie death as opposed to the possible scum death allotted by lynching. Please feel free to respond here, I'd like further clarification.

On a serious note though, if you do care about the town winning, don't vote for yourself. Yes we don't know who the scum are and it is a random vote, but the scum

do

know who they are and their votes are more then just random. In the upcoming days the votes on day one do become valuable information.

Possibly. However, as I have already stated, this is a WIFOM scenario. It doesn't seem to me that you have any basis for reading into someone's random vote. The fact that you would be so quick to judge seems an indicator that you possess knowledge of alignments. This would be a scum tell.

To vote for OC at this time qould be premature, I think, but I would like to point a

FOS: OverCaffeinated

for the time being. I'll ask OC to defend himself, please, as few things look so scummy to me as a player who tries to avoid rebutting.

[Light-kun]

So my two posts and two lines of commentary are worse than inquisitors one post with one line, that's an interesting view you have there.

So I'm intrigued why I was the one singled out by all this unless It isfor you knowing that he is scummy as well so you'll just target me as a result.

As for the lack of commenting, I just don't see much to comment on in this random voting phase and I'm just naturally a man of few words, but since we appear to be out of that phase I'll be commenting a lot more.

First shield: You had a really shiny attractive icon that I noticed appeared twice up to the time of post. You are a victim of my Racoon like mind... *SHINY!*

Light-Kun...what the hell, man? It's like you're trying to suspect as many people as you can, so you can claim "reason" to bandwagon anyone you like at a moments notice. Townies need to hit the scum, scum can hit anyone. Post 42 strikes me as really scummy.

FoS: Light-kun

Second Shield:
Really? My reason is based on the fact that nothing else hit me as scummy, and I don't like lurky people. (And if you ever played with Killa7, you would be just as skeptical of them.) Additionally, EVERYONE is a suspect. Hm, I don't like your reaction much here... as a note, can mafia actually shoot itself? Haha! I win the argument! That...is the point of this argument, right...? O.o Nothing further here.

Third Shield:
Kriz and KMD did both answer a question for me. I have absolutely no idea why they would, and for that reason, both could be put under the microscope. Someone pointed out KMD to be an active lurker, which is potentially true. I haven't played with him, and that is fine and dandy. On the other hand...
Kriz is also novice rank (I am too according to that little thing under my icon, I know) so it is slightly possible that they defended me because they are novices, regardless of alignment. I think it might depend on how much mafia IRC or forum (latter more so) experience either has. Hm...

In any case, I wonder if Kriz's participation, juxtaposed against KMD's content lacking post (someone else's opinion), might give clues to their alignment?

Yes, almost nothing is done without reason, so I am sure if we look hard enough we can find something.

Now, the thing that really bothers me is one of the early posts by Kriz, that attacked Omni almost immediately after my post. Combined with his and KMD's defense of my accidental self vote is very bothersome to me.

Something else that bothers me is that as we "officially" leave the RJP, Omni unvoted, despite indicating his vote on me was serious (to some extent...)


Finally, SirD, the RVP has yet to produce any useful data for town, as far as I am concerned. The only time it happens to have meaning is once conversation is started and town can pick apart arguments in order to find scum (or at least, have a guess at scum.) Reaction is very important here, yes?

Now, for one thing I don't like.

First Sword:

Intelligence IS a sign of scum, but only if it is intelligent that only scum players (and mod) could possibly know.

WRONG

SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE

is

sometimes

a sign of scum. But definitely

not

intelligence. The mafia are not the only ones who are capable of knowing things that the rest of the town do not. Cops and Doctors, for example, have night actions which can be used to retrieve helpful information for the rest of the town.

If I were scum, I would roll dice, and disguise it with some crap reason.

I'll be sure to take note of that next game I'm in with you. ;P Really though, saying "Oh if I were scum I'd do this..." really doesn't mean anything at all. BTW, if you roll a dice to random vote, the DICE

IS

the reason for the vote.

I don't like Omni's lack of commentary and interaction.

Let the mod take care of the inactive players. If the only reason you are voting for Omni is the amount of content and not the content itself, thats pretty pointless and kind of scummy. =P

Aaanyway, Light-kun's right. Omni? Care to show us you're not scum?

Um hello? Way to make zero sense. Inactive != scum. Active != town. Its what is

in

the CONTENT, not the

amount

of such, that is the decider. How about instead of 'show us you're not scum' you say "Omni? Care to post more content so we can get a decent analysis?"

Obviously I don't approve of people just not posting hardly anything at all. But I don't approve of people finding that in itself to be a definite scum tell either.

@someone2:
There is nothing scummy about someone defending another persons actions unless they are CONSTANTLY taking up for them after every little spoken suspicion.

Brandi spends 3/5ths of the argument telling me things that:
1. I already knew. and
2. are trivial.

3. #4/5: She attacks of someone for agreeing with my argument, but instead of doing anything to push, she moves on to

4. Defending someone's defense of my double vote.

Okay, okay, I know we have a lot of amateurs in this game, but I really don't like evasive IC type feel I am getting from you. I really, really hate that, and to be quite honest, it just comes off as someone who wants to participate actively but not ultimately doing anything that furthers discussion. So, our petty argument aside, what is really the substance of this post?

A comment that would be fitting if Brandi FoS Kriz, but only yells at him a bit. Now, to be cynical and assume she is mafia: It seems like coaching disguised as a near FoS.

To be optimistic: She is being a neutral IC... in a not IC requested game.

To be normal: It doesn't make sense to not FoS Kriz, or not vote Kriz, in this post.

This is one of those posts that bugs me.

That is all for now. (And no comment on the Kriz attacking OC, but I did see it. Just no opinion because I dunno how active/inactive he has been.

. . . his icon isn't shiny.) :wink:

[Light-kun]

Unvote

I dunno who my vote is on, I think Omni...

[sirdanilot]

KrisReitzer: OC's vote that you were analyzing was a

joke

vote, it was still in the random voting phase and the reasoning was semi-joking. Seriously, when I read your post I really had to facepalm...

Now, if you found that joke vote scummy, that's another matter, but in that case you should have analyzed it as such.


Lightkun, would you mind making your posts a bit more compact in the future as that took up almost half a page. Also, not knowing what your vote is on strikes me a sloppy and not very pro-town, even if you don't know you should take the effort to check it.

I assume that Lightkun agrees with all the reasoning that I used to have my vote on him, as he didn't reply to my post 49 at all (except for a small bit on the random voting phase argument).

[omni]

I really don't get you at all LK first you don't like my lurking then you go back and examine my posts (that a lurker wuldn;t have made, but we're over this whole me being a lurker thing) and are disappointed that I unvoted you? Do you want me to put the vote back on you, because you've been very scummy to me with this bizzare accusationy stuff, it's like you're accusing everyone at once, trying to take the suspicions off yourself.

[Kmd4390]

as a note, can mafia actually shoot itself? Haha! I win the argument! That...is the point of this argument, right...? O.o Nothing further here.

Wait, what? Ok, trying to understand this. Can the mafia shoot itself? Do you mean self-vote? NK maybe? They can do both of those things. I've seen scum NK'd by scum once in the very few games I have played.
You win the arguement? What? How does this question win an arguement? You lost me with this part of the post.

Third Shield:
Kriz and KMD did both answer a question for me. I have absolutely no idea why they would, and for that reason, both could be put under the microscope. Someone pointed out KMD to be an active lurker, which is potentially true. I haven't played with him, and that is fine and dandy. On the other hand...
Kriz is also novice rank (I am too according to that little thing under my icon, I know) so it is slightly possible that they defended me because they are novices, regardless of alignment. I think it might depend on how much mafia IRC or forum (latter more so) experience either has. Hm...

If we were going to lynch over a self-vote that was immediately fixed, there is something wrong with that. Maybe you are scum but if you are, this is far from a tell. I don't know what could make you accidently self-vote but I saw no reason behind it, my thought was "are these people serious" so I reacted. I was not defending you, I was saying that this one thing is not a scum tell.

If you think I am actively lurking, that's fine. I realize I haven't added much but as I said already, I don't see anything yet.

My experience is very little. I think I've finished 4 or 5 games. My wiki will show you. I feel that I have picked up basic concepts of the game very quickly so I don't feel like I should be considered a newb anymore but I don't consider myself experienced yet. I'm somewhere in between. I don't understand what experience has to do with anything though.

[Brandi]

Light-kun, I am a newbie. =P

[Brandi]

Oh by the way L-K, I'm already voting for KrisReizer. =P

[Brandi]

Also Light-kun, if you don't like being corrected, maybe this isn't a game for you, you seem to be really over defensive when it comes to someone telling you that you are wrong. Obviously the things I am stating are not trivial for you, since you seem to be vastly unaware of the things I am pointed out. If you WERE aware, you wouldn't have gotten that which I pointed out wrong in the first place.

FOS: L-K

For just being way too over defensive. Seems like paranoid/aggressive mafia tactics to me.

[omni]

I'm really getting confused by L-K's play I just don't understand what he's doing, he just seems to be trying to accuse everyone else to take the heat off himself which seems rather scummy to me, and potentially the people he hasn't touched are his fellow scum, eitherway I'm not convinced by him/her at all

vote - Light-Kun

[Brandi]

Lol. I still think its funny that I was called an IC. This is my first MINI game and i know that minis don't require ICs. hahaha. (I've never finished a real game ever...)

[OverCaffeinated]

Anyone who uses the term "Heuristic Simulation" in a mafia game is way to smart to be just an average townie. Now the odds are probably close to even on a power role verse being scum, but the impact of lynching a scum on day one is much greater to our success of winning then losing a power role.

To begin, vocabulary does not have the slightest bit of connection to whether a player is town or scum, nor does it indicate a power role.

Again, it was obviously meant in humor since we don't get to choose our roles and I would hope the moderator randomly distributed the roles.

Second, your argument about the impact of a scum lynch seems half-baked to me. If there is a doctor, that's a possible NK stolen from the scum each night. If there's a cop, that's a ton of information. Townie power roles seem to me to be much more beneficial than reducing the scum population by one, which will not affect night kills, which are an automatic townie death as opposed to the possible scum death allotted by lynching. Please feel free to respond here, I'd like further clarification.

I'm not going to get into a huge statistical analysis debate on the value of roles, but similar to chess, you can break down their values. Although it varies from game to game, generally a scum is worth three vanilla townies. A doctor or investigator is worth 1.5 townies (since on average a doctor will save another townie only half the time before they get killed or an investigator will find a scum half the time before they die).

Although we can debate the exact difference, generally the benefit of getting a scum kill is worth losing a power role and hence my comment.

On a serious note though, if you do care about the town winning, don't vote for yourself. Yes we don't know who the scum are and it is a random vote, but the scum

do

know who they are and their votes are more then just random. In the upcoming days the votes on day one do become valuable information.

Possibly. However, as I have already stated, this is a WIFOM scenario. It doesn't seem to me that you have any basis for reading into someone's random vote. The fact that you would be so quick to judge seems an indicator that you possess knowledge of alignments. This would be a scum tell.

That was not a "Wine In Front Of Me" argument. My argument is very clear and not circular at all.
Random voting on day 1 is all fine and grand, and if you look back, is exactly what I did. My point was that when you do a random vote, you need to take yourself out of the choices.