Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[Rhinox]

That was quite the game. Very exciting. I'm happy the town won, but this game makes me realize how much work I still have to do in recognizing scum. (well, this WAS my first game as town). After muffin's death, I had all but convinced myself there was no way CKD could be commando... *facepalm*. CKD, you really played a great game.

As far as balance goes, I didn't think it was unbalanced at all... just swingy, as demonstrated by clock picking the bomb to kill. If things would have went the other way, the whiskers could have been completely decimated pretty quickly. There were 2 things I think I did very well this game: first, if this is indeed what happened, getting myself to be the obv. nk choice D1. As Rishi said, that saved us from being in LyLo after the first day/night. And the other thing I'm proud of is convincing everyone that wolf was a better lynch choice than coug 2 days ago. Even if my reasoning behind it was a bit wrong (that coug and ckd weren't commando), it ended up helping a lot (especially considering ckd admitted to having a scheme up his sleeve if he and wolf would have survived.)

Hey coug, you like playing as scum a lot more than town, don't you hehe? It would have been very frustrating if it were LyLo and I would have had to choose between you or CKD at the end. The way you played this game, I don't think there would have been any way I would have been able to not pick you to lynch.

I also have a confession to make. I almost fell victim to outguessing the mod very early in the game. Since the start, I had a bias that ecto was scum. Reason being, in the two games I've played, Rishi has been mod both times. First game (a newbie game) I was scum and we had a last minute replacement into the game who was town. We were told that as soon as that player confirmed, we could start playing. This game, ecto was a last minute replacement into the game. Instead of being told to start right away, we were given an extra 24hrs after ecto confirmed for scum to finish up there pre-game conversations. I interpretted this as meaning ecto was probably scum because when a townie replaced in last minute, no extra time was given. That is why I grilled ecto extra hard early in the game. By the time we lynched muffin, I figured out why it wouldn't work to try to outguess the mod like this: in a newbie game, the longer you wait to start, the greater chance that players will flake while waiting for the game to start. That doesn't really apply in a more experienced game.

All in all, I don't think anyone really played that poorly this game at all. Yeah, mafiamann made himself look pretty scummy day 1, and muffin also dig himself a big hole after he started getting a little pressure, but nobody really made any huge mistakes. Being the least experienced in the game, I was very happy to have held my own with all the talent in this game, and of course it helped having the most powerful role in the game Did I really have double protection? jeez, I couldn't have been killed at all so long as Vi was alive (and I didn't get myself lynched.)

[Vi]

Well that came out the opposite way of what I expected. You are so evil for giving Rhinox an obv. SK claim and Ectomancer a working Godfather claim. (I expected Rhinox to be the sole survivor again as soon as he claimed NK immunity...)

I'm really opposed to clearing people on flavor (which seemed to be a large part of why Ectomancer evaded suspicion, for instance)... Rishi, you designed the game; what's your take on that sort of argument?

What exactly were the roles, anyway? I can vouch that Babysitter = Doctor. I can also beat Rhinox over the head for this--

This is also why I ignored the fact initially that Vi's role was a bodyguard type role - I knew I was a pup, and I doubted that I would get double protection. I didn't really think though that there might be other pups.

How was Bogre supposed to know you were NK-immune? :\

-------------

...wow, I just realized this is the first time I've ever won as Town (on the other site I play on, Town has

never

won). I feel special for all of the six days I was here <.<

[curiouskarmadog]

Well, I thought we had that won until the wolf lynch. it was quick and unpredicted. I didnt know what to do going into the night....I spent most of the night trying to figure out my claim. I orginally was going to claim SK cop, then I thought Shrink. Then I thought about a watcher/tracker role...but none of the claims made sense with the crumbs I left. If wolf had lived and Coug would have been hung instead, I was going to turn around next day and claim that Rhino was the SK. I thought about not killing jon but Cass. I figured Jon would investigate me that night (because I wasnt on the wolf lynch)...I could have argued a jon/ecto connection, but once one flipped town..that would have been bad.

Pretty much all game, Coug hit my radar as scum (SK). I thought I might have a chance because I thought Coug was a SK, but then conversation changed that even if Coug did flip SK I was still scum Mafia SK cop. I hadnt even thought of that possibility (from the town perspective) while putting together a claim. I thought about saying I falsed claim to draw a kill, but I dont think anyone would have bought that.

for the record...overreaction = scummy, is bullshit. I have been hung (or vig killed) so many times as town because people peddling that crap. I always play hot and angry, any meta of me would show you that...and as town (and I guess scum too)..I always attack anyone who pushed that as a case.

Next time, I will definately go with my gut about who to kill. I would have killed jon, but was talked out of it. The town was saved because of that claim. I almost had Ecto hung.

We did try to kill Rhino one night..

I think Rhino played a great game, even though you were wrong about me. Cass I think had good instinct...

Muffin pissed me off, first with his "I have the most experience here" comment, then his scummy playing, his claim was poor (though I guess mine wasnt much better), and then his lurking....if that is what experience teaches you, I dont want any of it.

Wolf's play Day 1 was super scummy, but he corrected his play and I felt he ended up doing a fair job.

Myself, learned to not fake crumb so heavily, for nothing is certian.

I will comment on the set up once a list of roles and NIght actions are posted.

[StrangerCoug]

I told you curiouskarmadog was scum

In more sportsmanlike news, the setup was primarily what I tried to use to get curiouskarmadog killed. For reasons obvious to me, he had to be scum, but the setup and his earlier overreaction were my only real weapons I could use against him (a cop that detects both Mafia and SKs and one that detects only SK's is pretty redundant, and I doubted Rishi was that inexperienced a mod). It really didn't matter in which order curiouskarmadog and I were lynched in terms of the town winning since what would finally be my second town win would be in the bag, but I still intended to put up a fight.

I think the setup worked quite well here, actually.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

Hey coug, you like playing as scum a lot more than town, don't you hehe? It would have been very frustrating if it were LyLo and I would have had to choose between you or CKD at the end. The way you played this game, I don't think there would have been any way I would have been able to not pick you to lynch.

I think I do much better as scum than town. I've only won 20% of my games as town, but I'm breaking even as scum and briefly even had a winning scum record.

Any suggestions for me on how to improve as town are greatly appreciated

[curiouskarmadog]

for the record...overreaction = scummy, is bullshit. I have been hung (or vig killed) so many times as town because people peddling that crap. I always play hot and angry, any meta of me would show you that...and as town (and I guess scum too)..I always attack anyone who pushed that as a case.

[Vi]

Hey ckd, what about that "To be honest" tell?

[curiouskarmadog]

lol, that is true..I wasnt lying. I almost didnt bring it up here because I didnt want that kind of attention at that time...but then I realized there was a couple other games I was having the same arguement in..if anyone would have meta-ed me in this game and saw that I wasnt following up here too...it could have hurt me in other games.

I have been proven wrong in another game....I brought up the arguement, and someone meta-ed a couple random games....apparently townies say it as often as scum...though, I was right in this game was I not?

[Rhinox]

I have been proven wrong in another game....I brought up the arguement, and someone meta-ed a couple random games....apparently townies say it as often as scum...though, I was right in this game was I not?

Haha yeah but you knew something we didn't about muffin, didn't you I shoulda known when you didn't go after coug for it and I had to point it out that you didn't think it too legitamate of a tell. That should have tipped me off.

What exactly were the roles, anyway? I can vouch that Babysitter = Doctor. I can also beat Rhinox over the head for this--How was Bogre supposed to know you were NK-immune? :\

So are you saying you are straight up doc? Did you have to submit protect choices, or was it an automatic role like a bodyguard? So basically, N1 I was targeted by commando, and i was both immune and protected by bogre? Of course, he wouldn't have known I was immune. I was still thinking your role was an automatic bodyguard role... So that explains why I thought I had double protection - well I did, but only because bogre chose to protect me.

Any suggestions for me on how to improve as town are greatly appreciated

idk, I think its just your playstyle. For example, I see self voting in the random stage as scummy, I see throwing a vote out in your first post in a new day as scummy...

If wolf had lived and Coug would have been hung instead, I was going to turn around next day and claim that Rhino was the SK.

Yeah, I realized that my role claim set me up to be attacked for being scum. Thats why i made sure I left good crumbs early and tried to be pretty pro-town most of the game. It would have been a tough fight, but you would have had to convince either Cass and Ecto that I was scum and wolf would have had to vote me as well... In my favor, I had the D1 no night kill working for me, as well as the fact that I thought wolf was scum already. I'm actually interested to see how that would have played out, but I have faith that cass and ecto wouldn't have hung me. Especially because we should have still been hunting commando. Based on jon's claim, either you or wolf HAD to be commando (well turns out you both were), and there weren't any SK kills at all.

Well that came out the opposite way of what I expected. You are so evil for giving Rhinox an obv. SK claim and Ectomancer a working Godfather claim. (I expected Rhinox to be the sole survivor again as soon as he claimed NK immunity...)

Yeah, I did like my role a lot, but I knew if I wasn't very pro-town plus hopefully preventing at least 1 nk, my claim probably wouldn't have saved me. Especially if you really thought I was secretely an sk... Although I understand why you would think that given the outcome of our newbie game If anything, you'll really have to think about me next time we play together because I don't think there was too much different between how I played this game and how I played my first game.

[StrangerCoug]

curiouskarmadog, it's not your hot-headed and agressive playstyle that I took as overreacting (you saw it out of me too); it's your taking back a statement that you were so confident in making that I took as overreacting.

[Rhinox]

I'm really opposed to clearing people on flavor (which seemed to be a large part of why Ectomancer evaded suspicion, for instance)... Rishi, you designed the game; what's your take on that sort of argument?

Well, basically, I rolled the dice here. I knew it wasn't a proper way to clear ecto, but the way ecto made his claim made me think he was something powerful. Flower was the leader of the whiskers and the one whiskers role I thought should be included in the game. Since this was a theme game, I started wondering about what all the possible roles could go along with flower. Something like a Martyr, perhaps. My imagination even created roles like if we lynch flower, our leader, the whiskers would disband and immediately lose. It was a gamble that paid off, and jon hopped in just in time to properly clear ecto, at least partially.

regarding ecto, I think for a minute he might have thought I was scum. There was one small exchange where I said that I thought ecto implied he had a power role, but that was all I said about it. Ecto then asked me what I thought about him implying he had a power role... I knew I was town so I didn't want anymore discussion regarding what ecto's role might be, but I felt like I was being baited to see if I would fish for any more info about ecto's role (an example of the fisherman becoming the fish). It sounded to me like a clever way to trap a scum player into role fishing. I got out of it quickly because I didn't want to give any reason for ecto to think I was scum, but if I were scum, I probably would have done the same thing... or would I?

[Vi]

Yes, just an ordinary Doctor with a cool name.

Yeah, I did like my role a lot, but I knew if I wasn't very pro-town plus hopefully preventing at least 1 nk, my claim probably wouldn't have saved me. Especially if you really thought I was secretely an sk... Although I understand why you would think that given the outcome of our newbie game If anything, you'll really have to think about me next time we play together because I don't think there was too much different between how I played this game and how I played my first game.

Suffice to say I was quite "displeased" after my death when I saw what looked like Ectomancer getting off easily, quickly followed by your claim. (Almost as "displeased" as when it was revealed that both of you were pro-Whiskers, but that displeasure was toward a different party.) Up until your claim, I was willing to believe you were confirmed Town - remember, I was told coming in that you were protected N1 and there was no successful kill.

It can also be sufficed to say that if I'm in another game with you, you

will

be my random vote~
But I'd like to see you again sometime.

so I can random vote you and/or take vindictive measures

[wolframnhart]

Well i had fun, I agree with Curious though i was upset my own self at Muffins play. Maybe we didn't have to lynch him, it would have been better if he had just asked for a replacement instead of the way he had gone about playing that day, but that is just my opinion. So instead I tried to get him bussed to buy town cred, and when all of a sudden it seemed the lynch the next day was going to me instead of coug i didn't know what to do and i just gave up, not my proudest moment and i apologize o curious for that one, but i just didn't know what to do.

Hopefully I will do better next time, but good game all, especially jon for saving the town, next time i will go with curious instinct if i have him as a partner again.

[curiouskarmadog]

you played fine dont beat yourself up about it. You had a good point about jon and if I REALLY wanted to kill him it would have been done..I tend to be very aggressive...so dont sweat that. after your Jon case feel through, you should have made a case against Coug or myself....

[wolframnhart]

You are right, i should have made a case against Coug, but i figured after i had defended a few posts of his i wouldn't be able to go back and say they are scummy without looking hypocritical, but it is all a learning experience.

[muffinhead]

Well first of all congradulations on the town for what was a really good victory. This was eaisly my bluest game and the first time I would consider my self a let down to my team.

My intention was to have a relaxing fun game where I could be myself and just enjoy it. To be honest I wanted to be a townie purly cause this was my 3rd straight game as scum which some might say is lucky. However I felt it would be unfair to tell my fellow team this because it would be very unpositive. This was the start of not having a relaxing game.

I dont know whther anyone has the same problem but when Im scum I have to focus on every single post which takes forever. To type a decent post would take half an hour to an hour. Thats no problem when your committed however when you lose that then its basically impossible wich happened to me that I will go into detail later.

Being a townie is so much easier as you just type hat you think and can do that very quickly. I think I wouldve posted more if I wa a townie but still unsure commitment wise.

Post More Later, but as you can already see, you can post alot when its off the top of your head, this was done in 5 minutes.

[jonathantan86]

Well...I thought I was quite lucky as the cop that both my investigation targets survived to Day 3 (so my results are more useful), and both were innocent (if one or both were guilty, I don't think my claim would have been so believable). I also need to be better at detecting scum though...I seriously thought vi/bogre and SC were scum. It was quite fortunate that I didn't waste an investigation on vi on Night 2...I thought vi's scumness would be quite apparent through conversation, but as it turned out vi was a Doctor.

Also it was quite fortunate that we voted wolf instead of SC.

wolframnhart, I thought you played quite well actually. As Rhinox said, we settled on you by elimination, not by anything you did. But you might have defended better, yes...at that time, I still had a nagging feeling that rhinox and ckd were the last two scum, but you and sc "removed all doubt". I did think about possible Godfather roles when making my claim, but decided to drop that possibility after wolf and sc's behaviour in the thread...I concluded both were scum and there couldn't be any more scum (Godfather or not) for game balance reasons.

And yes, I would like to see the mafia chat where I almost got NKed on Night 2.

[muffinhead]

Now day one I played good, I played how I usually would as scum and well yeah. The experience post was pre planned before I got my role because I was looking through the list of players in the mini theme thread and I was the oldest player here. It was a bit of fun and by no means tried to look like the captain. But then ckd replaced with 5k of posts to my 400 lol. Of course the expierenced would hate that post. Other then that I thought I played a good day 1.

Then once day 2 hit I lost my commitment to the game. Well if you want pin point accuracy then it was when the day kill occured where I didnt post for the rest of that day. Then once day 2 started I just lost every single bit of passion I had for this game. I just got boared and eventually I reached the stage where I hated posting. I was most definatly considering replacement but by the time that had happened I had all the votes on me for not understanding the bogre case which I never did understand cause I couldnt be stuffed to read through.

Eventually I decided to try understand the bogre case by reading through everything. I think I red about 7 pages going backwards without seeing a single post of him. That was the stage I gave up and then even more votes piled on me.

Now this is the reason I didnt get replaced. In my previous match I had replaced in as scum with the majority of votes on me which I absoutly hated. I told myself I never wanted to be someone who done that to others. At that stage I saw myself as garrentied to be lynched. I just couldnt do that to someone else as its just not fair on them.

So this was exactly what my thinking was.

First of all bogre had already looked horrible so I thought that if I turned up scum then bogre would be garrentied to be lynched tomorrow. Then this game is in lylo. My 2 scumpartners were doing a brilliant job so I thought to try set some one else up with a fake claim. I also done the fake claim cause I considered this my last match and as I said at the beginning all i wanted was to be myself and enjoy it. The claim was also for fun and added intrest to the game. I also wasnt over commited as this was the only game I was in.

Orginally I was going to and wanted to claim that I had a gilty on wolf. Then he would bus me and would look surly innocent. In the end I didnt have the guts to do so as Ive never been in a game where scum has claimed scum to be guilty and therefore I was unsure of the result. Also note I would not have claimed possible insanity if this was the case.

If I had my time again I wouldve claimed bogre to be innocent and really set him up. I must give credit to vi for recovering the situation.

Now I personally couldnt believe when vi was nked. I had set him up to look incredibly suspicious and he was just killed off. I would like to hear from some townies oponions about how they wouldve treated vi on day 3 if he was still alive. Maybe he was less sus but SURELY the town would have to highly consider him being scum in that situation.

Now with when wolf died on day 3 ckd was left a very tough situation. I personally wouldve not claimed anything after reading all of rhinoxs suggestions of a godfather. The sk claim left hi, screwed for the next day but by then there was nothing he could do.

Now in this game there were some quite brilliant players.

First of all rhinox- you played unblieveably brilliant and to be able to post so so much information, your commitment is a gift. Everyone should take note of how rhinox let everyone know his feelings and emotions. That is what made him definatly pro-town and something almost impossible for scum to copy.

Then there was jonathen for the most perfect timing of a claim ive seen in my small ms history. It was also a heavy factor in winning the game for the town.

Then there was vi for making bogre look good and sc for really recovering his game and by the time I was killed he looked town. Another mistake by me was to target sc.

sc is evil as my 2 worst played games, hes been in both of them lol joken.

Now for my scum team.

wolf you played brialliant and honestly there wasnt much you could do after the claim to save the game. You will win the majoirty of matches as scum for the way you played that match. Also for good sakes dont feel bad for bussing me, cause I feel bad for the 2 of you lol.

Well I dont know whther this will be my last ms game. But it was good to do it with a bunch of good people. MS has given me somthing to look forward to for the last 6 months but unfortunatly now I think im simply over it.

Why couldnt i post such big posts in the actually game lol.

If I ever play again, I wish to do it with the lot of you to show everyone my real ability as you certainly didnt see me at my best. In fact it was my worst lol.

[muffinhead]

Oh I forgot to give credit to ckd for what was argubly the perfect game played by him and really unlucky not to win. He totally desearved it and if I stayed in the game and focused or somthing likethat so I would survive just another day, well then I think the commadoes wouldve won as he done nothing wrong whatsoever.

Also I suggest to anyone in a game with ckd to vote him off just incase hes scum as you have no way of telling lol.

[Vi]

Hey jon, did you think I was scum after I replaced in and posted for a while?

I dont know whther anyone has the same problem but when Im scum I have to focus on every single post which takes forever. To type a decent post would take half an hour to an hour.

I do that regardless of my role.
IMO the only thing worse than being caught in my own words as Scum is being caught in my own words as Town and lynched for Scum. (That's the definition of a VI... *rimshot*)

Now I personally couldnt believe when vi was nked. I had set him up to look incredibly suspicious and he was just killed off. I would like to hear from some townies oponions about how they wouldve treated vi on day 3 if he was still alive. Maybe he was less sus but SURELY the town would have to highly consider him being scum in that situation.

Don't underestimate the power of a competent replacement to set aside everyone's suspicions. ...I learned that one from Cass.
The only person I could see flinging suspicion on me D3 would have been ckd, and now it's more understandable why

Everyone should take note of how rhinox let everyone know his feelings and emotions. That is what made him definatly pro-town and something almost impossible for scum to copy.

It's possible.

[StrangerCoug]

sc is evil as my 2 worst played games, hes been in both of them lol joken.

BWAH HAH HAH HAH!

xD

Joking or not, it's still cute.

[jonathantan86]

Hey jon, did you think I was scum after I replaced in and posted for a while?

Actually I did. Scum can play and reason as actively as town would (I think you say the same in your post), so I did not consider your activity as a town tell, especially since you were casting suspicion on a few people. Rhinox, however, somehow "cleared" people through his posts, so it was easier to believe that he was pro-town.

[ClockworkRuse]

I'm just going to say, that was the most unfortunate kill I've ever made. D=

And I'm disappointed that MafiaMann wasn't scum.

[Rhinox]

Also I suggest to anyone in a game with ckd to vote him off just incase hes scum as you have no way of telling lol.

you can say that again...

Everyone should take note of how rhinox let everyone know his feelings and emotions. That is what made him definatly pro-town and something almost impossible for scum to copy.
It's possible.

Yes... very possible.

[MeMe]

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