Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624


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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:54 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Bluesoul wrote:So why is the act of stopping people from stifling those leads [connections between the then vote leader and other players] anti-town?
1.)
I was not attacking you for the
surface
reason of your vote. On the surface, you were protecting our collective innocence and inexperience (warning: sarcasm) from making the 'mistake' of trying to connect people to the vote leader before everybody has posted.

However, your surface reason has a few hidden assumptions/connotations that it pushes, which I
am
attacking. The ones in particular that concern me are:

-->
a.)
That DGB is largely responsible for pointing out that the town will look for partners for a possible MBL-scum (and that it would have likely gone unnoticed otherwise);
-->
b.)
That damage is probable from DGB's post. This requires: (i) that MBL be scum; and (ii) that at least one non-poster knows that MBL is scum and would therefore fear being connected with him;
-->
c.)
That DGB was serious about lynching MBL (and consequently that the three non-posters would also think the collective town was serious about lynching MBL). I find it hard to believe you would not recognize the playfulness in DGB's post.

Note: Of the three, it is
c
that concerns me the most. The other two are almost negligible, but enough for me to wonder about.

2.)
I second Patrick's question to chamber.

VOTE COUNT NUMBER THREE

MBL: 2
(Elvis Knits, Sarc

Bluesoul: 2
(MBL, ether)

DGB: 2
(bluesoul, PJ)

chamber: 1
(DGB)

sarc: 1
(OGML)

Patrick 1
(chamber)

Elvis_Knits 1
(patrick)

not voting: 2
(Elias, IH, )
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:16 pm

Post by DrippingGoofball »

bluesoul wrote:I'd also like to hear more on DGB's thoughts on MBL, and whether she has serious thoughts on him or not.
Actually I like to play with Mr WhiteWhiskers quite a bit, and consider him a great player. Why else would I have shot him down right out of the barn in Space Pigs (please accept my insincere apologies, MBL ;-) )?

Sarcastro is a very astute player as well, so I thought it'd be fun playing along with the possibility that he might have caught scum on page 1. But hey, the game is young, maybe he did.

PJ is a Mafia hero that I try to emulate so clumsily that my efforts often go completely unnoticed. No matter how much I try to use numbered lists, logic continues to escape me. Need I add that I am totally awed by his post above? After catching up on the game, I was very surprised that my top of page 2 post was considered "damaging." It's not like I voted. If there was anything at all serious about that post, it was the reminder of how many players were needed for a lynch, and how many votes had already been cast for MBL.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:09 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Unvote: Bluesoul, Vote: DrippingGoofball
.
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:06 pm

Post by DrippingGoofball »

petroleumjelly wrote:
Unvote: Bluesoul, Vote: DrippingGoofball
.
Hey, that ain't nice.

Just when I had decided not to drive you crazy in this game the way I did in Thespival.

May I beg to be entertained with an explanation for your vote?
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:30 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

You managed to butter up three people in the game with a single post.
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:40 pm

Post by chamber »

Patrick wrote:
chamber wrote:Your interest in finding scum doesn't feel genuine to me. Your explaining your thought process to much.
No more than usual. What do you think of PJ?
I assume the implication of this question is that pj is also explaining himself, but its not the act of explaining but the manner in which you did that I found scummy. You over emphasize the way you got to your conclusions instead of the conclusions themselves.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:44 pm

Post by Ether »

Post 60, Patrick wrote:I don't understand what you mean by "for what he himself evidently didn't believe to be damage". Didn't he spend a few posts explaining why he did think her post had done some damage?
Yes, but even that logic should only jump out if MBL were scum.
Post 58, PJ wrote:4.) Now for the question(s) reserved for Ether:

--> a. Did you actually think E_K's post was going to result in any "discussion stifling"?
--> b. Separately: Do you think E_K intended for her post to stifle discussion?

I'm basically wanting to know if you think E_K's post was legitimately scummy, "bad form", or something else.
a.) No.
b.) Not really; I think this was another failure to articulate myself properly.
(...ugh.)
The second sentence was more what I meant. I do think she could have contributed something and didn't...but she'd have to expect something would inevitably happen with or without her help.

In more recent news,
unvote; vote: elvis_knits
for her non-sequitur stupid question in 68, which she'd already previously attacked as a stupid question in 15, and is directed toward the person who'd foreshadowed suspicion on her since her last post. Not much else she's done, either. We should kill her.

I repeat my question to OGML from 56.

Sarc: top three, and a person you think is town.

Same question to DGB. Actually, she should probably answer first.

Chamber, I'll confirm that Patrick normally talks like that, and has felt all right since he started posting. And his Elvote is in excellent taste. He's probably town.
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:13 pm

Post by Thestatusquo »

As a note, that vote count is current as of post 80. It has been requested that I only have vote counts be current up to the post that contains them, and as that is a reasonable request (if you object, PM me.) I will be following that model.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:58 am

Post by elvis_knits »

petroleumjelly wrote:You managed to butter up three people in the game with a single post.
I agree. Also, no matter how much you like certain player it should have no bearing on whether you think they're scum or not.

unvote; vote DGB
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:03 am

Post by elvis_knits »

Ether wrote: In more recent news,
unvote; vote: elvis_knits
for her non-sequitur stupid question in 68, which she'd already previously attacked as a stupid question in 15, and is directed toward the person who'd foreshadowed suspicion on her since her last post. Not much else she's done, either. We should kill her.
As for 15, at the time I didn't think any explanation was possible or pertenent for Patrick's vote. MBL has said repeatedly that he thinks Patrick had other motivations, and I don't think he was merely talking about some grudge from another game, so that's why I asked in 68 -- to see if there actually was something.

Not understanding why my behavior there is scummy.
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:41 am

Post by DrippingGoofball »

petroleumjelly wrote:You managed to butter up three people in the game with a single post.
I know, I'm sorry I didn't have enough butter to butter up every one else.

I don't remember saying that MBL couldn't be scum because I enjoy playing with him, to wit:
I wrote:Sarcastro is a very astute player as well, so I thought it'd be fun playing along with the possibility that he might have caught scum on page 1.
But hey, the game is young, maybe he did
.
In fact at the moment my favorite scum candidates happen to be (1) PJ for defending me with explanations as clever as they were long, then voting me without a word of explanation and then providing a "reason" as gratuitous as the ones he was condemning others for, then (2) elvis for buying into it. Caveat: I'm not sure how likely it would be for two scums to both go after a townie, one after the other. Thus I will refrain from voting either for now.
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:49 am

Post by elvis_knits »

I wasn't buying into what PJ was saying. Indepentently, I had the same reaction when reading your post. It was a bit too lovey-dovey for the DGB I know! This is not a love-fest! Where is the firing squad?

(I do <3 you though).
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:01 am

Post by Patrick »

chamber wrote:I assume the implication of this question is that pj is also explaining himself, but its not the act of explaining but the manner in which you did that I found scummy. You over emphasize the way you got to your conclusions instead of the conclusions themselves.
I can only see myself putting any great emphasis on that once, and that was because I'd found it helpful. Basically, I felt like one or two people were overthinking his comment and analysing the thought process heavily, whereas I think he likely said it casually.
elvis_knits wrote:As for 15, at the time I didn't think any explanation was possible or pertenent for Patrick's vote. MBL has said repeatedly that he thinks Patrick had other motivations, and I don't think he was merely talking about some grudge from another game, so that's why I asked in 68 -- to see if there actually was something.
You haven't done much scumhunting. At the time, you'd made no comments about anyone's alignment, and your question to me seemed to ignore the meat of the game in favour of something irrelevant, which you twice said was irrelevant before. (MBL's last comment about my vote had a smiley face at the end, and didn't seem like a serious line of enquiry to me). (Also, there's no grudge).

DGB doesn't really seem suspicious to me. I've always seen her as being lovey-dovey regardless of alignment.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:04 am

Post by elvis_knits »

I'm ignoring the meat of that game? What would you like me to comment on?
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:25 am

Post by Patrick »

After MBL's first analysis post, Ether asked you to comment on it. You've also not commented on bluesoul's wagon/alignment, which seems like a notable event in the game. Chamber's accusation against me, the suggestion of a bluesoul/Sarcastro link and the suggestion that Ether voted bluesoul whilst ignoring others who did the same as him all spring to mind as possible things to talk about. Any of those seem more relevant than what you highlighted.
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:43 am

Post by elvis_knits »

I didn't realize I was being that derilect...

I guess I haven't said that much on those things because I am undecided on what any of it means. I chose to question you further because it is the issue I am most directly involved in, and have a better grasp of. But it's not like I haven't commented on anything, and it's not like everyone else in the game has commented about every one of those things. So I think you're being oversensitive to my actions.

I'll try to comment more though, if it will make you feel better about me. Beginning at the beginning!
MrBuddyLee wrote:Patrick suggests a bold strategy out of the gate, and one he knows will probably gain traction. I'd be interested to hear his specific motivations.

Sarc voting Ether and then finding safe harbor in the fourth spot on a bandwagon when the
third
spot wasn't at all appealing to him.

PJ following along merrily with unknown quantities elvis and Patrick.

DGB avoiding the MBL wagon after she ruthlessly butchered me in the first 5 minutes of Space Monkeys II.

Bluesoul curiously hesitant to put a second vote on chamber, chooses to OMGUS DGB by proxy instead.

OGML also avoids the MBL wagon and hits Sarc with an appropriate vote.

Elias is the only one of you I'm not familiar with. I'd probably vote for Sarc now, but I don't want a competing wagon... yet.

vote: Elias_the_thief
It's recap of events taken from MBL's pov. It's a bit martyr-like, and throws as much suspicion around as possible. Suspicion on those for wagoning, and suspicion on those for not wagonning. And then voting none of the people he has thrown suspicion on, which seems like an odd choice.

I would think he would choose one of the people he is suspicious of. If he doesn't choose one of them, I have to assume he is either 1)not serious in his accusations or 2)afraid to get in trouble (or OMGUS) and feels it easier to take a random vote on elias.
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:52 am

Post by elvis_knits »

As for Bluesoul... I think the wagon built because of this:
bluesoul wrote:I'd rather see posts from those that haven't made it into the game yet, elias, IH, and chamber. Nice reference to nailing MBL's scumbuddies, I'm sure that helped us fight the good fight since we've got three players that get to stare that right in the face as they think about their posts.

facepalm: DGB
I think it was obvious what three players he was referring to, as he names them in the post. So that was not confusing or significant to me.

But I did find it significant that for anyone to be wary of connecting themselves to MBL, that the player would have to be scum and be scum with MBL. (I did post about this, BTW). To me, it doesn't seem like something that anyone would really need worry about, so it was weird that bluesoul did. Weird in the way of maybe knowing that MBL or one of the other three players really was mafia. Which in turn would make bluesoul mafia.

I feel I am just rambling here...

Probably why I didn't say it before.

It felt a little too convoluted for me to vote him for bluesoul. And I think it was probably just humor that can look scummy when overanalyzed.
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:58 am

Post by elvis_knits »

As to the bluesoul/sarcastro link, I would highly doubt they were scum buddies. Sarc does try to "explain" bluesoul's post that everyone was questioning, but that does not make me think they are scum buddies.

1)Sarc's explanation of bluesoul's post was in response to MBL's misreading and not understanding which three players bluesoul was referring to. It seem reasonable that anyone would know what three players, and natural for Sarc to try to explain what was obvious.

2)I don't see a lot of scum buddies defending each other in such an obvious way, when they don't even really have to.
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:02 am

Post by elvis_knits »

Side note:

Following on last post, the way MBL misunderstood bluesoul doesn't seem reasonable to me. He only quotes bluesoul partially, since that is the only way it is possible to misunderstand him. I smell something amiss in the way he only partially quotes bluesoul.
MrBuddyLee wrote:
bluesoul wrote:Nice reference to nailing MBL's scumbuddies, I'm sure that helped us fight the good fight since we've got
three
players that get to stare that right in the face as they think about their posts.

facepalm: DGB
Is it
three
players because you know I'm not scum and therefore the likely three mafia in this game are watching me cautiously?

unvote, vote: bluesoul
Patrick, now that you have forced me to pay more attention to this game I am realizing how much I don't like MBL.

I'm going back to him.

unvote; vote MrBuddyLee
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:09 am

Post by bluesoul »

Please note this part of post 36.
bluesoul wrote:To Ether, I was assuming MBL has scumbuddies for the purpose of DGB's post, where she basically said she wanted to keep MBL alive so he could help us nail his scumbuddies.
If
he is scum, then that just threw up a red flag to elias, chamber, and IH, the three players that haven't yet posted. If one of them were scum, they're more keenly aware of a connection with MBL than they may have been if the comment had gone unsaid.
Why are people having such a hard time with the thought that I was being hypothetical? I'm basing it on the assumption that MBL and one of the players that had not posted was scum. Certainly a possibility, so what's wrong with stating that DGB, assuming both conditions are met, may have hampered the town's efforts?
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:34 am

Post by MrBuddyLee »

elvis_knits wrote:It's recap of events taken from MBL's pov. It's a bit martyr-like, and throws as much suspicion around as possible. Suspicion on those for wagoning, and suspicion on those for not wagonning. And then voting none of the people he has thrown suspicion on, which seems like an odd choice.

I would think he would choose one of the people he is suspicious of. If he doesn't choose one of them, I have to assume he is either 1)not serious in his accusations or 2)afraid to get in trouble (or OMGUS) and feels it easier to take a random vote on elias.
It was my first post of the game. Your hyperventilation is duly noted.
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:41 am

Post by MrBuddyLee »

I still think my conclusion was just as logical or more so than the standard conclusion, and I defintiely didn't intentionally misconstrue:
elvis_knits wrote:Following on last post, the way MBL misunderstood bluesoul doesn't seem reasonable to me.
He only quotes bluesoul partially, since that is the only way it is possible to misunderstand him.
I smell something amiss in the way he only partially quotes bluesoul.

Patrick, now that you have forced me to pay more attention to this game I am realizing how much I don't like MBL.

I'm going back to him.

unvote; vote MrBuddyLee
Here's bluesoul's full post:
I'd rather see posts from those that haven't made it into the game yet, elias, IH, and chamber. Nice reference to nailing MBL's scumbuddies, I'm sure that helped us fight the good fight since we've got three players that get to stare that right in the face as they think about their posts.

facepalm: DGB
It doesn't say "think about their
first
posts". Therefore, the obvious conclusion to draw, regardless of bluesoul's first sentence, is that he is talking about the three people who would benefit from thinking about their posts in the context of "MBLscum in trouble"--that is, the three scum. It just doesn't ring true. I don't see proportionality in the concern here.
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:04 am

Post by DrippingGoofball »

bluesoul wrote:...so what's wrong with stating that DGB, assuming both conditions are met, may have hampered the town's efforts?
Are you kwayzeee?

All I said, on top of page 2, and I paraphrase myself, was "OMG could it be that Sarcastro has found scum on page 1?" - then I expressed a humorous intent to vote MBL, but mostly, I reminded the players that he had 4 votes and 7 were needed to vote. I also added as a joke that I wasn't going to vote yet, to pin down MBL's buddies.

How this has been misconstrued as "hampering the town's efforts" is causing me to bang my head against the wall until it bleeds.
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:09 am

Post by DrippingGoofball »

Bluesouls seems to jump from extremes of helpfulness to historical records of kraplogick.

vote: bluesoul
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:42 am

Post by bluesoul »

DrippingGoofball wrote:Bluesouls seems to jump from extremes of helpfulness to historical records of kraplogick.

vote: bluesoul
Ad hom noted.

MBL, even if your conclusion made more sense, it's still wrong. Until you accept that you
are
intentionally misconstruing my words.
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The Tooth Returns.

Anjaga1989: you fulfill my desires

"Mafia without bluesoul is like checkers without a board." --Feyd_Ruin

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