Mafia 79 - "The Amish Mafia" GAME OVER... WHO WON?

[ZombieSlayer54]

EA: Any form of bandwagon that gets even slightly large is reckless because there are two kinds of people who can push that bandwagon over the safe edge at an L-6 point.

1. Scum.

2. Townies who come in after not being around for a few days, decide to not read any of the pages, see who has the most votes, and then goes and votes for them.

[Korts]

All this conversation's fine and dandy, but this debate about theory and such eventually leads to nowhere. Today's lynch is Mellowed Man, come on, people!

[The Fonz]

Bandwagons are good for the soul.

Unvote Vote: Korts

Oh, and

FoS: VV and Korts

as scum buddies, VV seems to be playing a very n00b bussing on him, and it just reeks to me.

Surye, if I were a busser, would I really be the FIRST ONE to cast a vote on a fellow Scum, with no guarantee of any sort of bandwagon occurring?

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM. Oh noes, scum couldn't POSSIBLY do that!

There being no guarantee of a bandwagon actually makes it easier to vote your buddy. It's been noted, empirically, that scum, and especially newbscum, tend to 'random' vote their buddies more often that would be the case with genuine 'random' voting.

Please do correct me here, but bussers normally vote for a Scum, hope he's lynched, so they can say "SEE! Korts was Scum! Surely Mafia wouldn't vote for fellow Scum, would they?" Yet, when I voted, there was absolutely no guarantee of any Bandwagon occurring. In fact, it was the first post of the game, so absolutely no bandwagon was guaranteed. I unvoted him in fact, due to a misunderstanding about the amount of votes needed for a lynch. To make matters worse, I specified that it was a random vote. Why would I take the vote off if I was a busser?

Yeah, 'distancing' is a more applicable term than bussing for the RVS, really.

But it's entirely in character for scum to vote their buddies when they're under little pressure, and not when they're really in trouble.

Why would you take your vote off if it were really random, and the player in question is in no real danger?

The reason why I responded was to continue the discussion. Discussion helps Townies catch Mafiosos, as it gives more of a chance for them to slip up.

So do bandwagons.

Point. I'm just not that big on random Round 1 bandwagons. I'm not upset that there is a bandwagon, I just don't wish to join it, as there doesn't appear to be particularly strong support for it. Like I said, should something come up, I will vote for the person being bandwagoned.

DING DING DING!

Scumtell!

"I'm not bandwagonning because other people aren't, but if other people are, I will!"

FOS Surye.

This random vote bandwagon is getting too serious. You seem to be supporting it.

And bandwagons never help anyone, besides Mafia. It is as bad as quicklynching.

WRONG. It is the single most useful source on information on day 1. Thanks for playing.

oh, and can someone explain what bussing means?

The act of attacking one's scumbuddy, in order to make it seem less likely that the pair of you are in cahoots.

I don't see how not wanting to incriminate yourself is necessarily a scum trait when townies don't want to get false incrimination on themselves either.

The point is, in theory, townies are actually pro-town, so can't 'incriminate themselves.' Though they can make mistakes that others take to be incriminating.

As a more general point, town players should be doing their best to stir up discussion, take positions, try to figure things out, since they WANT other players to get a read on them. Scum don't want town reading correctly, so can be tempted to avoid contributing to avoid giving themselves away.

Sheesh. It seems anything other than random voting or OMGUSing gets chucked in the WIFOM basket. The whole point of this game is that one side has information and the other doesn't. The side that doesn't, must of necessity engage in speculation and second-guessing of motives, or else sit around until a mafia confesses out of sheer boredom.

I stick to my opinion that the mafia wouldn't be dumb enough to bandwagon someone straight up, so it is in my opinion chasing the wind to go after someone on that basis. Call it WIFOM if you will, I call it eliminating unlikely possibilities to concentrate on more likely ones until there is more information to work with. This includes the possibilities of the scum being stupid or brazen. If they are, well it won't keep them alive in the long term.

unvote: Korts
vote: Erratus

For jumping on the lurker.

Except, of course, that plenty of people will make this kind of argument, and therefore it won't necessarily prevent them surviving in the long term.

You say scum wouldn't be that dumb. Because people are willing to make that argument, it isn't actually that dangerous, so it isn't that dumb. WIFOM.

Voting the same people isn't a scumtell. But it's not a towntell either.

i come with terms this is how ea plays, he will vote 10 times in a row onto the easiest lynch, anyways im here, need 2 read, lots of wagons and crazy veiws goin on.

That's fairly antitown , and I don't like accepting meta excuses for such actions.

EA: Any form of bandwagon that gets even slightly large is reckless because there are two kinds of people who can push that bandwagon over the safe edge at an L-6 point.

1. Scum.

2. Townies who come in after not being around for a few days, decide to not read any of the pages, see who has the most votes, and then goes and votes for them.

That's... well... laughable.

[Surye]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

[q21]

All this conversation's fine and dandy, but this debate about theory and such eventually leads to nowhere. Today's lynch is Mellowed Man, come on, people!

I could get onto a Mellowed Man wagon, same for VV for his wifom and over-defensiveness, but I'd prefer Celeboki because he's a self-professed lurker who's tried to justify his lurking with, "I want to see what's going to happen."

I would say your right on that, Like I stated before I have seen people play overzealously and get noticed heavily, then accrue votes, then be revealed to be town.

I am not defending VV at all but as for myself I am not going to claim a side and remain neutral at this time. I just haven't seen any heavily incriminating play yet.

The underlining is mine. To me it basically says that he's not going to get involved until there's an opening for him to get involved without looking scummy at all. Anyone agree/disagree with me on that?[/u]

[Surye]

I am sort of seeing the same thing as q21, Celeb's refusal to participate in scumhunting, and looking for a "safe" time to participate is very suspicious to me. So

FOS: Celebloki

But for today, VV seems like a better path, he thinks L-5 is scary, lets see how he reacts to real fire.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Defending someone automatically means that if they are scum, I am scum? Maybe I just do not see the logic that others give?

Of course, you could just have JDodge logic. I luv me sum JDodge logic.

[Surye]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Defending someone automatically means that if they are scum, I am scum? Maybe I just do not see the logic that others give?

Of course, you could just have JDodge logic. I luv me sum JDodge logic.

When you defend someone with equally broken logic, yes, it's pretty likely.

[Riceballtail]

To me it basically says that he's not going to get involved until there's an opening for him to get involved without looking scummy at all. Anyone agree/disagree with me on that?[/u]

/agree

FoS: Celebloki

Also curious as to Rigel, whom has been quiet (computer trouble is a good excuse, but it didn't really stop me). Still waiting to see something else to make any real judgments though.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Defending someone automatically means that if they are scum, I am scum? Maybe I just do not see the logic that others give?

Of course, you could just have JDodge logic. I luv me sum JDodge logic.

When you defend someone with equally broken logic, yes, it's pretty likely.

Well, consider this.

If I WAS a Mafia, why would I defend a fellow who is obviously dooming himself? Would I not just let him die of his own stupidity, and maybe make it look like others were actually supporting him, rather than trying to defend him?

[Surye]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Defending someone automatically means that if they are scum, I am scum? Maybe I just do not see the logic that others give?

Of course, you could just have JDodge logic. I luv me sum JDodge logic.

When you defend someone with equally broken logic, yes, it's pretty likely.

Well, consider this.

If I WAS a Mafia, why would I defend a fellow who is obviously dooming himself? Would I not just let him die of his own stupidity, and maybe make it look like others were actually supporting him, rather than trying to defend him?

Oh, gag me with a WIFOM.

I didn't say you were acting like smart scum.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Defending someone automatically means that if they are scum, I am scum? Maybe I just do not see the logic that others give?

Of course, you could just have JDodge logic. I luv me sum JDodge logic.

When you defend someone with equally broken logic, yes, it's pretty likely.

Well, consider this.

If I WAS a Mafia, why would I defend a fellow who is obviously dooming himself? Would I not just let him die of his own stupidity, and maybe make it look like others were actually supporting him, rather than trying to defend him?

Oh, gag me with a WIFOM.

I didn't say you were acting like smart scum.

WIFOMs are, actually, quite a good strategy.

And always, ALWAYS presume that the scum who are playing are SMART scum. Stupid scum will always reveal themselves in one way or another. Besides that, always think that the scum is SMART. Doing otherwise will only lead to your downfall.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Let me explain what I mean by WIFOMs being a good strategy.

Say you have a WIFOM. Obviously, poisoned. However, any and all Mafia-related WIFOMs will have a poison which ONLY kills Mafia.

I.E. WIFOMs are used to make Mafia slip up. When used on a Townie, it will do nothing but show that they are a Townie, since they did not slip up. In fact, I can not think of a single instance where a WIFOM which I used against someone did not give me accurate results.

[Surye]

Let me explain what I mean by WIFOMs being a good strategy.

Say you have a WIFOM. Obviously, poisoned. However, any and all Mafia-related WIFOMs will have a poison which ONLY kills Mafia.

I.E. WIFOMs are used to make Mafia slip up. When used on a Townie, it will do nothing but show that they are a Townie, since they did not slip up. In fact, I can not think of a single instance where a WIFOM which I used against someone did not give me accurate results.

Wow, I don't know where to begin. This is so ass-backwards, a WIFOM is an information poison, which is ANTI TOWN not anti mafia. Either you really don't understand WIFOM, or you're digging you hole deeper and deeper.

Hand over the shovel, and let us lynch you. Now I'm serious about a ZS lynch.

Unvote, Vote: ZombieSlayer54

[ZombieSlayer54]

Let me explain what I mean by WIFOMs being a good strategy.

Say you have a WIFOM. Obviously, poisoned. However, any and all Mafia-related WIFOMs will have a poison which ONLY kills Mafia.

I.E. WIFOMs are used to make Mafia slip up. When used on a Townie, it will do nothing but show that they are a Townie, since they did not slip up. In fact, I can not think of a single instance where a WIFOM which I used against someone did not give me accurate results.

Wow, I don't know where to begin. This is so ass-backwards, a WIFOM is an information poison, which is ANTI TOWN not anti mafia. Either you really don't understand WIFOM, or you're digging you hole deeper and deeper.

Hand over the shovel, and let us lynch you. Now I'm serious about a ZS lynch.

Unvote, Vote: ZombieSlayer54

Or maybe I just have different experiences than you.

WIFOMs, in my experience, have always served to make Mafia slip up, or Townie confirmation.

They have never led to a something anti-Town.

[The Fonz]

ZS, could you link to a game where WIFOM has allowed you to do either or those things? Failing that, a hypothetical example? I just find it really hard to see where you're coming from.

[q21]

I have to agree with Fonz and Surye here. I have never seen, neither can I think of, any situation where ambiguous information can help the town. Add ZS to that list of people I'd be willing to lynch.

[Erratus Apathos]

Prod Marmalade and Psychatrog please.

EA: Any form of bandwagon that gets even slightly large is reckless because there are two kinds of people who can push that bandwagon over the safe edge at an L-6 point.

1. Scum.

2. Townies who come in after not being around for a few days, decide to not read any of the pages, see who has the most votes, and then goes and votes for them.

Uh, sure? If VV is town and six scum/morons want to push his wagon to a speedy lynch, great, we subsequently lynch them all and we win. Unless the entire mafia is missing half their chromosomes, then VV's not in any danger and furthermore you need to quit being such a god damn baby over wagons that haven't even got halfway to lynch.

[mr. incrediball]

last time i checked, WIFOM was used by the mafia to confuse the town... or have i got the whole thing wrong?

major fos: ZS

[Korts]

All this conversation's fine and dandy, but this debate about theory and such eventually leads to nowhere. Today's lynch is Mellowed Man, come on, people!

I could get onto a Mellowed Man wagon, same for VV for his wifom and over-defensiveness, but I'd prefer Celeboki because he's a self-professed lurker who's tried to justify his lurking with, "I want to see what's going to happen."

I would say your right on that, Like I stated before I have seen people play overzealously and get noticed heavily, then accrue votes, then be revealed to be town.

I am not defending VV at all but as for myself I am not going to claim a side and remain neutral at this time. I just haven't seen any heavily incriminating play yet.

The underlining is mine. To me it basically says that he's not going to get involved until there's an opening for him to get involved without looking scummy at all. Anyone agree/disagree with me on that?[/u]

/Agree, yeah. I see what you're saying. But Mellowed Man, he's in direct contradiction with himself. Look.

I have a hunch VV is just an overactive player due to his sickness.

First sentence, he accepts VV's defense.

I will Vote: ValiantValant and when he gets well from his sickness (I'm sick but getting better at the moment) I will maybe think about removing my vote.

Next sentence he votes VV for said defense.


On another topic,

unvote, vote: ZombieSlayer

. This whole WIFOM thing is bullshit, unless he provides a link. But after ZS is dead, MM is next, okay?

[Marmalade]

Sorry! Didn't know the thread was open.

Dood. Next time, edit the topic name to let us know the game has started. Please?

And, also, Q21, why are you jumping on people for stating that they are random voting? Very bad reason to be jumping on people, you know...

FOS on Q21.

And, along those lines of logic Q21, why not vote for ValiantValant, so as to get a Mafia lynched?

And believe me, I have seen a random votes tally have that happen before.

Um, why aren't you voting for q21?

Also, assuming that babygirl and I were scum, why would we vote for the same person? That's just going to spell trouble later in the game if one of us (babygirl or I) was ousted, and suspicion would fall onto the other person automatically.

This is WIFOM.
(Also, nwhorse used it too.)

ValiantValant's vote in the first post of the game proper was most probably random, I just found it interesting that he felt he needed to specifically say so. What I found more interesting were the other two votes I mentioned in post 42, both Riceballtail and babygirl86 placed second votes (Rigel and Korts respectively) and thought that they had to reiterate that those votes were random.

The attacks were just really contrived. Scummy for putting "random" in front of their vote?

FOS Riceballtail

Considering how much I defend myself, especially when I am town, I find VVs actions completely fine.

FOS Surye.

This random vote bandwagon is getting too serious. You seem to be supporting it.

And bandwagons never help anyone, besides Mafia. It is as bad as quicklynching.

This whole post is just entirely wrong and scummy.

The Celebloki hate is pretty uninteresting.

EA: Any form of bandwagon that gets even slightly large is reckless because there are two kinds of people who can push that bandwagon over the safe edge at an L-6 point.

1. Scum.

2. Townies who come in after not being around for a few days, decide to not read any of the pages, see who has the most votes, and then goes and votes for them.

Wow, fancy being any more careful?

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Why Korts?

Boohoo. I've been reading this thread, wanting to have voted for Zombie forever, and now everyone else does. Steal my fire, people! But yeah, the WIFOM stuff is pretty horrific, but my vote is primarily for the early stuff.

I like Korts and Surye. I don't like q21 or MellowedMan. I like the VV hate. I find the Celebloki wagon uninteresting.

Zombie is the obvious play at this stage.

vote: Zombie

[Korts]

Gee, thanks, Marm. I think I'm on Surye's list because of the possible connection between VV and me. I'd be suspcious of myself myself if I weren't myself.

[Surye]

Or maybe I just have different experiences than you.

WIFOMs, in my experience, have always served to make Mafia slip up, or Townie confirmation.

They have never led to a something anti-Town.

I'll explain again more carefully.

Town's only tool is logic.
Mafia's advantage is information.

We agree so far?

Okay, WIFOM is a way to throw logic into an infinite loop, distorting it to provide two mutually exclusive and opposite outcomes as nearly equal possibilities. This makes whatever information used to create the WIFOM useless. That is why it is bad, and always bad, for town.

For pro-mafia, WIFOM cannot make them slip up, because it's not actually claiming anything, it's just putting a possibility out there, but it can put them back in the position of monopoly on information.

But I suspect you know all of this, which is why my vote rests neatly on your head.

[q21]

Sorry! Didn't know the thread was open.

Dood. Next time, edit the topic name to let us know the game has started. Please?

And, also, Q21, why are you jumping on people for stating that they are random voting? Very bad reason to be jumping on people, you know...

FOS on Q21.

And, along those lines of logic Q21, why not vote for ValiantValant, so as to get a Mafia lynched?

And believe me, I have seen a random votes tally have that happen before.

Um, why aren't you voting for q21?

Also, assuming that babygirl and I were scum, why would we vote for the same person? That's just going to spell trouble later in the game if one of us (babygirl or I) was ousted, and suspicion would fall onto the other person automatically.

This is WIFOM.
(Also, nwhorse used it too.)

ValiantValant's vote in the first post of the game proper was most probably random, I just found it interesting that he felt he needed to specifically say so. What I found more interesting were the other two votes I mentioned in post 42, both Riceballtail and babygirl86 placed second votes (Rigel and Korts respectively) and thought that they had to reiterate that those votes were random.

The attacks were just really contrived. Scummy for putting "random" in front of their vote?

FOS Riceballtail

Considering how much I defend myself, especially when I am town, I find VVs actions completely fine.

FOS Surye.

This random vote bandwagon is getting too serious. You seem to be supporting it.

And bandwagons never help anyone, besides Mafia. It is as bad as quicklynching.

This whole post is just entirely wrong and scummy.

The Celebloki hate is pretty uninteresting.

EA: Any form of bandwagon that gets even slightly large is reckless because there are two kinds of people who can push that bandwagon over the safe edge at an L-6 point.

1. Scum.

2. Townies who come in after not being around for a few days, decide to not read any of the pages, see who has the most votes, and then goes and votes for them.

Wow, fancy being any more careful?

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Why Korts?

Boohoo. I've been reading this thread, wanting to have voted for Zombie forever, and now everyone else does. Steal my fire, people! But yeah, the WIFOM stuff is pretty horrific, but my vote is primarily for the early stuff.

I like Korts and Surye. I don't like q21 or MellowedMan. I like the VV hate. I find the Celebloki wagon uninteresting.

Zombie is the obvious play at this stage.

vote: Zombie

The VV hate wouldn't have happened if I hadn't mentioned him and others putting "random" in there votes. Yet you like the VV hate and dislike me. Why exactly?

[Surye]

Gee, thanks, Marm. I think I'm on Surye's list because of the possible connection between VV and me. I'd be suspcious of myself myself if I weren't myself.

Yea, to be honest, the more the game goes on, the more I think VV was TRYING to implicate you. My suspicions are not what they used to be. ZS and VV are the important ones.