Self-Voting: is it always a bad idea?

[Xtoxm]

I think your proposal is better, and the self-voting rule should be lifted.

But isn't your proposal basically what you do already?

[Mr. Flay]

I'm worried, though, that I'm just going to get people arguing "but I didn't THINK it was stupid/being an asshole!". Which is a fairly dumb defense, but it puts the onus back on me to argue with people when they're being bad ICs. I was trying to avoid that, but apparently I can't...

[Xtoxm]

Well, often it is the case. Other than personal attacks, I find it very rare that someone is intentionally being an asshole.

It's not fair to enforce that kind of rule for all games, but for ICing it is.

[Vi]

I'm worried, though, that I'm just going to get people arguing "but I didn't THINK it was stupid/being an asshole!". Which is a fairly dumb defense, but it puts the onus back on me to argue with people when they're being bad ICs. I was trying to avoid that, but apparently I can't...

In that case, perhaps the rule should only be enforced if someone reports it (as was the case in the incident that spurred this topic's revival). That way you have someone else who

also

thinks the IC is doing poorly, and you can judge if there's a valid reason for thinking that.

[Yosarian2]

I'm worried, though, that I'm just going to get people arguing "but I didn't THINK it was stupid/being an asshole!". Which is a fairly dumb defense, but it puts the onus back on me to argue with people when they're being bad ICs. I was trying to avoid that, but apparently I can't...

In that case, perhaps the rule should only be enforced if someone reports it (as was the case in the incident that spurred this topic's revival). That way you have someone else who

also

thinks the IC is doing poorly, and you can judge if there's a valid reason for thinking that.

That dosn't really work, though, because most newbies won't know to report it. Unless you mean the mods should report it?

Anyway, I tried to post this before; if this is going to be an official rule, you probably want to be a little more clear then just saying "idiots and assholes", so , instead of that, you could make the rule like this:

"IC's are expected to be good examples for newbie players, and to demonstrate through their behavior proper mafia play without acting in any fashion that is inappreate or detremental to the game. Anyone who, when ICing, does not follow this rule, may not be allowed to IC anymore, at the list mod's discression."

[OhGodMyLife]

Usually the reporter is the game's mod or the other IC(s). If the newbies are reporting it too, it must be really bad.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, often it's other ICs or a moderator, though a surprising number of newbies send me PMs about problems in their games.

Yos2: We're back to "What if I didn't feel it was detrimental?", though. I'll concede that there was some loopholes in my original 'rule', but this isn't really any better. *sigh* I've only banned a few people from ICing, and usually it's for repeated, egregious stuff. Without naming names:

• Mod messaged in March 2008 about this IC driving players away. Lurking hardcore in NG ### now, since I'd forgotten the older warning... self-hammered in NG ###.
  
• ... asked for replacement in NG ### and NG ### due to "fights" with other players, according to his moderator. Not reliable to see the game through.
  
• ... modkilled in NG ### (before he was an IC) for quoting his role PM. Self-hammered in NG ###. Seems to be doing alright (not stellar) in NG ### right now, but it'll be some time before he's ready to IC.
  
• ... self-hammered and acted like an ass in NG ###, not a good example. Maybe sometime down the road, but not anytime soon. Both the mod and another IC let me know about this one.
  
• ... has a penchant for self-voting and disruptive playstyle.
  
• ... lurks more often than not.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2: We're back to "What if I didn't feel it was detrimental?", though. I'll concede that there was some loopholes in my original 'rule', but this isn't really any better. *sigh* I've only banned a few people from ICing, and usually it's for repeated, egregious stuff.

Well, problem is, whatever the rule is, it's going to have to be up to the list mod's discression. I agree that it's very much sub-optimal to have a rule that's subject to debate in a case like this, I just don't see any way of avoiding it.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm just going to say yes, yes it is.

[Wall-E]

I've self-voted twice in my life. The first time was in an IRL game of mafia. I was at L-1 on D1, it was our (I think) second or third game of mafia, and the pure shock of the self-vote disbanded the bandwagon. I happened to be town in that game.

Recently I self-voted out of annoyance with myself. It was a mistake and I quickly retracted and apologized.

ITT there is no 100% perfect strategy in this game, hence why I love it so much. ANYTHING you can do to win is an acceptable move. There's no right move for every situation (due to WIFOM) so there's no point in trying to define individual moves' usefuleness.

That having been said, everyone seems to already be agreeing that self-voting is usually a poor option.

[Wall-E]

ps i inspired this thread

[sthar8]

ps i inspired this thread

No.

I think it is reasonable for Mr. Flay to be able to ban ICs for any reason he chooses. I also think that self-hammering is a good reason. Self-voting may very occaisionally be pro-town, but the vast majority of instances I have witnessed have been for selfish and foolish reasons. While we obviously shouldn't ban all players from doing stupid things, ICs have a responsibility to the newbies in their games that should preclude this kind of behavior.

[OhGodMyLife]

IC banning should be Flay's (or any future newbie list mod's) discretion, and there should not have to be any guidelines for when an IC can be banned. Flay obviously only bans someone from ICing in extreme cases anyway.

[Adel]

Yeah, often it's other ICs or a moderator, though a surprising number of newbies send me PMs about problems in their games.

after a few newbies complained about me I firgued ICing wasn't worth the trouble, and now I don't.

[Erg0]

You mean I should be reporting ICs for doing stupid stuff in my games?

Man, I'm way too laissez-faire.

[OhGodMyLife]

Not just doing stupid stuff, doing stuff thats obviously affecting the newbies opinion of the game/site in a negative way.

[SensFan]

Recently I self-voted out of annoyance with myself. It was a mistake and I quickly retracted and apologized.

Next time, wait until the fucking game is over.