Self-Voting: is it always a bad idea?

[SensFan]

I'm really not seeing the compelling reasons for self-lynching, guys. I see a couple of very far-fetched or improbable cases where getting yourself killed makes probabilities collapse. I see a lot of "but it's better than No Lynch!", which isn't my problem. If the Town isn't willing to lynch, that's a larger problem. I've NEVER been in a game where the town was totally unwilling to take a risk on a lynch; occasionally someone fell aslee/got ill/got drunk before they could come on and make the deadline lynch stick, but not a complete lack of initiative.

That said, if that many people think it's unfair, I'll probably strike rule 1. 2 and 3 I'm firm on, though...

As Town, I will hammer myself to avoid a deadline NoLynch. I really do believe that No Lynches are far worse than Town Lynches. Not only do the Scum get a free NK, but the Town is left with one less person to be able to look back on for interactions and the like. Added to the fact that, if I am 1 short of a deadline lynch 1 way, I run an elevated risk of being lynched the next day, I believe any Town player (potential exceptions for Top-Tier Power Roles, if its early in the game. They better not post, though, unless they are willing to claim the next day...) should do anything they possibly can to avoid a No Lynch, which includes hammering themselves if it comes to it.

[Mr. Flay]

I believe any Town player should do anything they can, short of self-hammering, to avoid a No Lynch. But by making the choice yourself, you're taking away data from the Day. I don't see why everyone is ASSUMING that no one will be willing to lynch you. If you're so scummy-seeming, why won't someone else lynch you? If you're not that scummy-seeming, why are you trying to die so fast?

[Coron]

I believe any Town player should do anything they can, short of self-hammering, to avoid a No Lynch. But by making the choice yourself, you're taking away data from the Day. I don't see why everyone is ASSUMING that no one will be willing to lynch you. If you're so scummy-seeming, why won't someone else lynch you? If you're not that scummy-seeming, why are you trying to die so fast?

Player A and B are voting you.

Player C is on vacation.

Player D is, well who knows, we haven't seen him in a few days.

[Mr. Flay]

Aha, I get it. As a moderator, I would

never

schedule a deadline to end while players were V/LA, and I only VERY rarely do so when someone

might

need replacement.

It may make my games last somewhat longer, but it's detrimental to the game to not be playing with a full complement of players. So that situation wouldn't occur in one of my games.

[armlx]

I concur with the "NL < mislynch" in the scenario that little is likely to change the same mislynch from happening the next day.

[Albert B. Rampage]

If you're so scummy-seeming, why won't someone else lynch you?

Everyone that is present to vote you already are, scum is intentionally not voting, there's only a few minutes before the deadline no-lynch...seems like a valid strategy.

[XReyoX]

First of all, my view on self-lynching is (as the majority) a bad idea. However, whether it is absolutely, 100% an unproductive town strategy under all circumstances is still debateable.

Flay, I do not think implementing your rules to ban people from playing is a good idea. Even if you can find a way to proof that self-voting will not, in all cases, aid the town in any way, both theoretically and statistically, it does not matter.

The aim of a town is to try to do what he _thinks_ is best for his faction, not what other theories and statistical information say is best for him. This thread alone is the proof that not everyone _believe_ self-hammering is a bad thing.

[kuribo]

Nothing is always a bad idea or never a bad idea, short of cheating or playing to the best of your ability.


Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[Coron]

Looking back on it, I self voted in my very first newbie game ever.

Situation was something like 5 alive, me(mafia claimed: townie), MoS(mafia claimed: cop), the real cop, the real doc and a townie.

And since these were opens, no variation in the roles, after MoS got lynched, I was pretty much screwed. I tried to shoot the cop, but obv failed because the doc protected him, the cop result made me almost surely scum, so after he revealed it, I just self voted to get it over with sooner. Basically I conceded because I knew I had lost.

[Mr. Flay]

Are people just not able to read my posts?

This only applies to you if you're town.

If you're scum, there are a couple of valid reasons to self-lynch, or even kill yourself overnight to save the town the trouble (the old newbie setup led me to that conclusion a couple of times).

XreyoX, I don't understand your point. I can

believe

something that is 100% wrong. People pick up stupid habits all the time, but i don't have to endorse them in games I play or moderate, and I don't believe I have to see them propogated in our newbies.

I haven't seen anyone give a compelling reasons why self-lynching as Town in a Normal Game would be reasonable. But I'll PM mith, right now, to see if he wants to override me on this.

[mith]

Well, quickly:

1. There are probably circumstances where it is correct play from player A's perspective that player A be lynched. They are rare.
2. The only one that is actually relevant to this discussion is the "preventing a no lynch at deadline" one. Flay isn't talking about role/mechanics based reasons (and a ban on self-lynching wouldn't effect them anyway; player A need only get someone else to vote for him).
3. If we want to consider than an "extenuating circumstance"... well, we can continue arguing about that (personally, in most situations I would choose the no lynch over a self-lynch). Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy banning it for ICs. "Play to win" isn't the only quality we want ICs to have.

[Xtoxm]

So you guys have admitted that self-voting can help your win condition, but are still banning it anyway?

I don't see the logic there.

[gorckat]

Okay- in the context of Newbie Games and aside from deadlines, in what situation, without really unusual extenuating circumstances, does self-voting help a townie IC achieve their win condition?

INSERT: Whatever situation it is must, by default, also work in a Normal game, since otherwise it's not good strategy and self defeats the argument here.

(I consider page one with 0/1 votes on yourself exempt at this time. Some people goob around and random vote themselves for reactions. Not sure its beneficial, but I concede it might be not harmful).

[Xtoxm]

If you have accidently claimed VT, or if a lot of people find you scummy, to the point you would be a lylo mislynch, but for some reason don't want to vote you.

[gorckat]

It sure would suck to have self lynched and then to see a glaring flaw/hole in someone's play that no living notices.


Also- if scummy looking ICs self-vote as town and that is a good strategy, then it won't be too long before the scummy person who won't self vote is scum by process of elimination.

[Xtoxm]

Is that not how it is?

If someone is on L-1, and you say "If you are town, you will self-hammer", and he refuses, you can be certain that he is scum.

And for your first point, I generally don't follow a game i'm dead in, just check in to see the main events.

[hasdgfas]

Why would you tell a townie to self-hammer? That makes no sense at all.

[gorckat]

If someone is on L-1, and you say "If you are town, you will self-hammer", and he refuses, you can be certain that he is scum.

Well we know who to wagon to -1 by default now, don't we?

[Xtoxm]

No, you say "If" you are town, you don't know. If you know 100% that a VT is clear, ie they are cop cleared, then I agree killing them is pointless, you should keep them around.

[Xtoxm]

If someone is on L-1, and you say "If you are town, you will self-hammer", and he refuses, you can be certain that he is scum.

Well we know who to wagon to -1 by default now, don't we?

Well, that assumes they have not claimed a power role.

[gorckat]

No, you say "If" you are town, you don't know. If you know 100% that a VT is clear, ie they are cop cleared, then I agree killing them is pointless, you should keep them around.

So in the above situation, the VT should not self hammer- there could be a cop who will clear him but hasn't wanted to come out. The same cop, if he has not investigated the scummy VT, may look at him that night and clear him the next day, which could break a game open for the town.

[Mr. Flay]

If you know 100% that a VT is clear, ie they are cop cleared, then I agree killing them is pointless, you should keep them around.

So you don't know your own alignment?

You should be 100% sure of your own innocence, at least in any Normal Game. This directly contradicts your "inevitability" argument above.

[Xtoxm]

Well, if a cop doesn't claim inno on him by L-1, he obviously wants to stay hidden and let the townie die rather than come out.

And your second scenario is very anti-town, the cop wants to find scum, not a scummy townie.

[gorckat]

Well, if a cop doesn't claim inno on him by L-1, he obviously wants to stay hidden and let the townie die rather than come out.

And your second scenario is very anti-town, the cop wants to find scum, not a scummy townie.

What's wrong with the cop looking at the scummy person? I know the conventional wisdom is that cops peek at people they can't read, but what if the cop doesn't agree with the people who find him so scummy? He needs to check himself and either bag a scum 100%, or he needs to prevent a mislynch.

Looking at a scummy townie before going into LYLO seems better than guessing after the other people in the game.

Let's say the cop has had an unlucky streak and each person he has looked at has died the same night. It's him, 2 scum and 3 townies going into the night. Scum pop a townie and the cop peeks at Mr Scummybags.

Cop claims and town looks away from Mr Scummybags, LYLO mislynch averted.

We're probably getting to specific, but I don't think a townie should simply hammer when asked at -1.

What other situations would a self-vote/hammer always be good?

[Xtoxm]

Possibly, but I still think it's best that that townie be lynched the day before, there might not even be a cop present, or the cop might die at night.

Nothing else comes directly to mind, but i'm sure there is.