Newbie 295: Mafia own the town!

[MeMe]

What a nasty little town this has become. Mafia have arrived and are systematically gunning down the nice townfolk. What should decent, smart people do?

MOVE

, of course. What are YOU gonna do? Try to figure out who the bad guys are and lynch 'em during the daylight! I'm not kidding, folks. That's the plan. Deal with it.

Alive (1)

bigAl

Mafia

Dead (6)

Per

Townie

- lynched Day 1
germy

Townie

- killed Night 1
IH

Mafia

- lynched Day 2
Miyu

Cop

- killed Night 2
kaos

Doc

- lynched Day 3
bertrand

Townie

- killed in Endgame

No current deadline

~~~~~~~~~~~~
One of the following four set-ups is used for this game:

a) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 1 doc, 3 townies
b) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 4 townies
c) 2 mafia, 1 doc, 4 townies
d) 2 mafia, 5 townies

Note: in view of the number of players, we will start in the day phase, although most larger games start with a night. The mafia will be allowed to communicate pre-game, though no role will submit choices until Day 1 is over.

Possible roles:

You are the mafia

. You may only talk with each other during the game's "night," not during the "day." You let me know before the night's deadline who will be your victim. You win the game when all the other players are dead.

You are the cop

. Every "night" before the deadline you send me a message with a name of your choice, and I will let you know whether that player is mafia or not. You are not allowed to communicate with any of the other players outside the thread. You win the game when the mafia are dead.

You are the doctor

. Every "night" before the deadline you send me a message with a name of your choice, and that player cannot die if attacked by the mafia that night. You cannot heal yourself. You are not allowed to communicate with any of the other players outside the thread. You win the game when the mafia are dead.

You are a townie

. You are not allowed to communicate with any of the other players outside the thread. You win the game when the mafia are dead.

[MeMe]

The Rules

:

• Votes must be in
  bold
  . If you do not bold your vote, it will not be counted.
  
• Please be attentive and
  unvote
  , if necessary, before casting a new vote. This is not
  required
  , but I’d appreciate it.
  
• Executions will require a simple majority of votes. Once a player has reached the necessary majority, his pleas are useless and any attempts to unvote will be unheeded. You may
  vote: no lynch
  – majority votes of this kind are necessary to end the day without a death.
  
• The game is not to be discussed outside of the thread unless your role specifically states that you may do so.
  
• Once your death scene has been posted, you’re dead. Stop typing.
  
• Don’t edit/delete previously submitted posts
  
• Don’t quote any PMs from me.
  
• If you have a night choice to make, it is due by the posted deadline. I will not wait for you – if you do not submit a choice to me, tough! No choice will be made.
  
• If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period, please post a notice to that effect in the thread.
  Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
  
• Remember, it’s a game. It’s supposed to played. It’s supposed to be
  fun
  . Do your part.

[MeMe]

All confirmations are in. With seven players alive, it'll take four votes to lynch.

Game on!

[IH]

vote:Germy

Cause I know what long and frequent posts he likes to make.

= D

[Miyu]

Umm Umm..

Vote: Germy

May as well start it off somehow.

[bigAl]

'Evening all.

Vote: Per

[Per]

Waaaa, a vote for me. I guess we need a lynch here today and I'll follow the majority for now.

Vote: Germy

[IH]

unvote

Speed lynching is not good.

vote:Per

You don't want to reach a majority on the first page, because then you have NO info going into day 2. Scum want to speedlynch, because no one is close to lynching them.

Look at it this way. If we lynch wrong today, then we have NO MARGIN OF ERROR tomorrow, or town loses. We want the most out of today before we lynch.

If we lynch scum today, hooray, we're at three days! Alright!
If we lynch town today, oh no, we're at lylo!(lynch or lose)

= D This should be known as soon as possible. Longer days=Better for town

[bigAl]

It seems that in almost every Road to Rome game that I've been in, someone puts a third vote on someone else early for little or no reason. More often than not they turn up pro-town (simply due to the fact that there are more pro-town than mafia players in a game). While it is definately not a good play to put someone so close to a lynch (esp. someone who hasn't even posted yet!), I don't see it as overwhelmingly scummy either. That beeing said, I'm happy with my vote.

Also, I agree with IH's general comments that longer days are good, etc.

[kaos]

Random Vote: bertrand

Just spreading the votes around.

[Per]

unvote

Speed lynching is not good.

vote:Per

You don't want to reach a majority on the first page, because then you have NO info going into day 2. Scum want to speedlynch, because no one is close to lynching them.

Look at it this way. If we lynch wrong today, then we have NO MARGIN OF ERROR tomorrow, or town loses. We want the most out of today before we lynch.

If we lynch scum today, hooray, we're at three days! Alright!
If we lynch town today, oh no, we're at lylo!(lynch or lose)

= D This should be known as soon as possible. Longer days=Better for town

Yeah, longer days are good. However, I don't think that scum want a speedlynch. The best thing for scum is that there's no lynch at all, and believe me, I have seen games with no lynch on day 1.

That hurts town even more than lynching a townie because if you don't lynch on Day 1, you will still be with more around on Day 2, increasing the chance to make a wrong lynch again.

But taking another look at it, you might be right that we don't need a quick lynch. We do need a lynch, but it shouldn't be quick and I didn't think about that. However, I'm not going to change my vote (yet) because at the moment, there's only 2 votes for Germy and he's not in real danger.

By the way, IH, haven't you done exactly the same thing I did? You put a third vote on me, which might be causing a speedlynch.

And I'm not scum, just unexperienced.

[IH]

Wrong, I've put a second vote on you. = D That will be the most informative I believe. We've only got two scum, correct? IF they hop on and speedlynch, BAM, we got em. Both of them. = D

[germy]

Wow, I check in for the first time to discover that I've almost been lynched!

I wanted to be the player to place the third vote on someone, thereby initiating discussion.

Per's third vote, however, is especially scummy for several reasons.

1. He stated quite clearly he was voting just to "follow the majority" and a "need to lynch here today." Neither of these are a good defense to quicklynch someone, even for an inexperienced townie.
   
2. A "no lynch" is bad, but not so much that we need a lynch on the first page to prevent it. If there is a choice between lynching a guaranteed townie or a "no lynch," the no lynch is always better. However, there is no such thing as a guaranteed townie (even with a cop, sometimes), which means the only way to get information is to lynch, even if someone comes up town.
   
3. IH did not place a third vote on Per: he placed a second vote. Not the same thing.
   
4. It's "inexpeperienced," not "unexperienced."

IH - I've never liked the "if two hop on a speedlynch the

must

be scum." I like to look at reasoning, too.

Now, to promote discussion:

Vote: Per

. Third vote, lynch minus one.

[IH]

= ( I think that a page one speed lynch is all but justifiable for lynching. Seriously, if anyone hammers, they are most definitely scum. Don't forget this is an inexperienced game Germy.

[Per]

Germy, I explained why we need a lynch every day. That's why I followed the majority. At that time, I didn't even think about a speedlynch. It's only the

third

vote anyway so it's not killing anyone, and as you said, it promotes discussion. That was my main objective.

And indeed, there are no guaranteed townies.

And I was wrong about the number of votes placed on me. I didn't count them anymore, I was just thinking I already had two and IH's was the third, but I didn't check. My bad.

And I can't say anything about saying unexperienced. It's really scummy and that puts enough suspicion on me, so I guess I'll be dead soon!

[germy]

It's only the third vote anyway so it's not killing anyone, and as you said, it promotes discussion. That was my main objective.

You are entirely right, of course.

It is not, however, what you

said

when you voted.

You specifically called out you wanted a lynch, that you intended for someone to be killed.

You specifically said that you were just following the majority in order to accomplish this.

You did not state that you were hoping to "promote discussion" or even, as Miyu said, "May as well start it off somehow." I do not believe that it was your main objective.

[bigAl]

Germy, I explained why we need a lynch every day. That's why I followed the majority. At that time, I didn't even think about a speedlynch. It's only the

third

vote anyway so it's not killing anyone, and as you said, it promotes discussion. That was my main objective.

Per seems a bit too casual about this third vote. If ever anyone decides to cast a lynch-1 vote this early in the game, I think that it's very important to announce clearly that it's lynch-1. This eliminates accidental quick lynchs. It seems quite clear that in Per's first post, he was casting it to move towards lynching someone, but he also said "...for now".

It also seems that after casting the third vote, Per realises that it was a poor thing to do and then just jumped on the the excuse that it promotes discussion. I'm not sure if this implies scumminess or just poor play, seeing as I think that both scum and townies might use that excuse.

[IH]

unvote, FoS:Per

Like I said, this is a newbie game, and I'm not willing to see someone lynched this early. So he made a bad play, but he was looking at it statistically I believe. I buy it anyways, and am willing to cut him SOME slack.

Bertrand, Miyu, Kaos, what are your thoughts on this?

[Miyu]

While I agree a speedy lynching is bad for the first page, I also think that a lynching needs to occur if possible.

The only people I want lynched are the mafia. If we lynch townies quickly, then we will be setting ourselves up for destruction. Quickly rushing for a lynch is always a bad sign. My vote was purely for discussionary purposes.

Per makes me think Mafia, but it could just be inexperience.

[IH]

Indeed = D That's why speed lynching is so bad. We'd just as likely be MORE likely to lynch a townie, but if we can let the day progress with some discussion, we'll be closer.

[goodposting]

[bertrand]

It seems that in almost every Road to Rome game that I've been in, someone puts a third vote on someone else early for little or no reason. More often than not they turn up pro-town (simply due to the fact that there are more pro-town than mafia players in a game). While it is definately not a good play to put someone so close to a lynch (esp. someone who hasn't even posted yet!), I don't see it as overwhelmingly scummy either. That beeing said, I'm happy with my vote.

Also, I agree with IH's general comments that longer days are good, etc.

Of the newb games I've played in, third voters have come up town once. Scum 3 or 4. Weren't you one of them at some point? I think DrippingGoofball was in that game.

@Per: The problem with going with the majority is that often you end up following the scum. The two people (or maybe one, or none) voting germy could be scum, and you don't want to be following them...
And long days ftw.

But taking another look at it, you might be right that we don't need a quick lynch. We do need a lynch, but it shouldn't be quick and I didn't think about that. However, I'm not going to change my vote (yet) because at the moment, there's only 2 votes for Germy and he's not in real danger.

Might be right??? If we quicklynch, we lose, barring extreme luck.

By the way, IH, haven't you done exactly the same thing I did? You put a third vote on me, which might be causing a speedlynch.

If anyone does that, he'll probably die tomorrow.

Indeed = D That's why speed lynching is so bad. We'd just as likely be MORE likely to lynch a townie, but if we can let the day progress with some discussion, we'll be closer.

[goodposting]

That is statistically incorrect. However, it's still not a good idea.

[IH]

Alright Bertrand, a one page lynch thats a bandwagon speedlynch. we have a 5 out of 7 chance of a townie being lynched, but the odds are sent even higher, because scum are not picking at random.

But that matters not.

The point is

Long days=good
short days=bad
lylo=HARD

[kaos]

Seeing as picking at random the odds are in favor of the mafia, especially without them random voting, we really need to get long days with lots conversations to tip the balance in favor of the town. This means anyone who tries to quick lynches is probably either an inexperienced townie player or a scum.

So I will keep my vote where it is, as it isn't really affecting anything, but I point a finger of suspicion at both germy and Per, putting three votes on someone seems unusual.

Sorry if I sound like I don't know what I'm talking about, this is my first game...

[bigAl]

Of the newb games I've played in, third voters have come up town once. Scum 3 or 4. Weren't you one of them at some point? I think DrippingGoofball was in that game.

In the first game I played (Newb164) I was cop and placed a third vote for little reason on D1. It took a lot of talking to get out of it. I know I've also seen at least one or two other games where pro-towns have made lynch-1 votes, and probably some scum do it too. I think the sample size that we're dealing with here is not really very conclusive. Maybe I just have a soft spot for this mistake since I did it too; and I try not to judge it solely on that. However, I've also hidden behind the "whoops, I'm new at mafia" excuse before in similar circumstances as scum. Overall, Per is more suspicious than average, but by no means certainly scummy.

kaos, you're making sense to me.

[germy]

but I point a finger of suspicion at both germy and Per, putting three votes on someone seems unusual.

Actually, this statement is somewhat misleading.

Every Day that ends with a lynch (which is the goal) has had a "third vote" placed at least once.

In fact, one could argue, the

only

way to lynch scum is to place a third vote.

Granted, there is an appropriate time to place that vote. Certainly, Per's vote was not one of those times.

But I believe that a "third vote,"

in and of itself,

is not suspicious: the timing of that vote, and the reasoning behind it, must be taken into account.