Posting in twilight - what is the default rule?

[Norinel]

And how is it obious to them? What if there's a game trigger that makes people need half the votes to be lynched? Or if a person requires an extra vote to get lynched? There are even roles which have extra votes.

Those are all relatively rare occurrences. In my time on this site, I can remember one game I was in that had a vote-affecting role, and it had a very active mod to minimize an unknown twilight.

It makes a lot more sense to allow it altogether, it enhances the game anyways.

How, exactly, does making the end of the day rely on an essentially arbitrary, random factor instead of the choice of the players enhance the game?

Anyway, I think both saying to not post in twilight but making no other changes and making an arbitrary twilight have their disadvantages. Personally, I believe the former's are easier to deal with, but modifying one or the other should make something acceptable to both sides.

[Mackay]

Norinel basically said what I would have. The argument for twilight posting is based on "what if"s when I specifically stated that those are rare occurrences. It is not that hard for the mod to say "twilight posting is allowed" in a game which may have vote restrictions, or merely due to personal preference. I think, however, that the default behaviour should be to not speak once a person is dead.

Stoofer:

Personally, I see nothing wrong with people posting information as the victim is dragged to the lynching tree.

Really?!

[Yosarian2]

Yeah...I don't have a problem with that either. The way I've always seen it, everyone is alive until the Mod shows up and says "Person X has been lynched, it is night" and locks up the thread. Hey, every condemmed prisoner is entitled to his last words, right?

In fact, this thread is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that people shouldn't post during twilight, unless a mod has a specific rule about it, and most mods don't.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah...I don't have a problem with that either. The way I've always seen it, everyone is alive until the Mod shows up and says "Person X has been lynched, it is night" and locks up the thread. Hey, every condemmed prisoner is entitled to his last words, right?

In fact, this thread is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that people shouldn't post during twilight, unless a mod has a specific rule about it, and most mods don't.

[Stewie]

How, exactly, does making the end of the day rely on an essentially arbitrary, random factor instead of the choice of the players enhance the game?

It's not random. Random implied that the mod would log in randomly throughout the day to check the game. In reality, most people have a routine. I, for example, log in once at 4:00 pm and once at 10:00 pm. Therefore, it's not random, since I would not be able to end the day at 4:00 am. This allows other users with a regular schedule to have their say before the day ends. This is not a bad thing, because it does not hurt the game. Another thing would be saying something like "Ok guys, with 6 votes, norinel is lynched. He was town. I can't really post the lynch scene because I'm in a rush, but feel free to keep posting" because there is new information, thus allowing the town to plan night actions better. As long as no new information is revealed, neither side benefits, therefore it enhances the game because the players have to be smart to use the little time they have to post wisely.

[mith]

In reality, most people have a routine.

That's a bit of a broad generalization, don't you think? I certainly don't have a routine, other than that I am likely to not update a game when I am asleep. And even then it's not a sure thing.

[Norinel]

How, exactly, does making the end of the day rely on an essentially arbitrary, random factor instead of the choice of the players enhance the game?

It's not random. Random implied that the mod would log in randomly throughout the day to check the game. In reality, most people have a routine. I, for example, log in once at 4:00 pm and once at 10:00 pm. Therefore, it's not random, since I would not be able to end the day at 4:00 am. This allows other users with a regular schedule to have their say before the day ends.

In that case, it's merely arbitrary. Still, some players will be able to get on between 4 AM and 4 PM, and some won't, and the fact that it's 4 PM and not 4:05 AM is based on an out-of-game that's outside of the player's control.

This is not a bad thing, because it does not hurt the game. Another thing would be saying something like "Ok guys, with 6 votes, norinel is lynched. He was town. I can't really post the lynch scene because I'm in a rush, but feel free to keep posting" because there is new information, thus allowing the town to plan night actions better. As long as no new information is revealed, neither side benefits, therefore it enhances the game because the players have to be smart to use the little time they have to post wisely.

There

is

new information revealed during twilight: who gets lynched. The lynchee knows any information they don't post will be taken to the grave, and thus has basically no reason not to reveal it. (If you think the lynchee deserves last words, let the players or the rules give him that opportunity, not how everyone's schedules line up.) And some players aren't going to have little time, they will have no time, and which ones will and which ones won't is entirely a consequence of factors that should, IMO, have minimal bearing on the game, if not none whatsoever.

[Yosarian2]

There

is

new information revealed during twilight: who gets lynched. The lynchee knows any information they don't post will be taken to the grave, and thus has basically no reason not to reveal it. (If you think the lynchee deserves last words, let the players or the rules give him that opportunity, not how everyone's schedules line up.) And some players aren't going to have little time, they will have no time, and which ones will and which ones won't is entirely a consequence of factors that should, IMO, have minimal bearing on the game, if not none whatsoever.

But that argument could go the other way, as well; what if player X would say something before he gets lynched, but can't get on for a few days and when he does get on, he finds out he was lynched?

[Mackay]

The honour system has been brought up - I do not know many mafia players who lynch a person without giving them a chance to speak up.

[Mr Stoofer]

I see that this topic was discussed here about a year ago: http://mafiascum.mithmojo.net/forum/vie ... viewresult

The poll was worded in a completely ambiguous way, but the posts show a strong preference in favour of allowing talking during twilight - just as this thread has shown.

[mith]

I hate when people drag up year old threads, I always worry I'll have completely changed my mind about it and look silly. Looks like I've been consistent on this one though.

[Norinel]

that argument could go the other way, as well; what if player X would say something before he gets lynched, but can't get on for a few days and when he does get on, he finds out he was lynched?

As Mackay said (And I believe mith did as well in the old thread), then it'd be principally the players' fault, and much less so the out-of-game factor. I agree with minimizing the impact of out-of-game factors on actual gameplay, and arbitrary twilight is one of very few ways the mod's schedule can have any impact. Why not drop it?

Edit: And for the record, I doubt I'd have any problem with a twilight of specified duration, (Say, one post by the lynchee or a span of time at least as long as the mod expects everyone to be online) but I've never seen it in practice.

[Mr. Flay]

I don't think "a span of time at least as long as the mod expects everyone to be online" is a good idea - our games here are already slow, and expecting twilight to last 2-3 days is sort of...ehh. Unless I'm misunderstanding your intent.

Really, I see very little posting of any consequence during twilight, so it seems most people already believe in some combination of the two ideas (Stoofer's and Norinel's being the outliers, apparently). Then again, I try to make my twilights more than 2 hours, but less than 12.

[mith]

I'd rather have a set time for day than a set time for twilight. ~shrug~

One of my next two games will have just that. Unless I change my mind.

[Fletcher]

If the mod doesn't want posting in twilight they should be prompt with night. I say it's fair game until then.

[BrianMcQueso]

(This is not an entirely hypothetical questions. Vote counts will be automated someday. Hopefully.)

You can't just go and say things like that, mith. You'll get my hopes up! [/lazy]

Speaking of downright appalling, FoS: Cam for calling Norinel "Narninian."

Holy crap! Mathcam just got

so ridiculously served

!

As for posting during twilight, I'm fairly against it. There has been more than one instance where a mafioso

thought

they had been lynched but were still one short. They confessed to being scum, which managed to convince other members of the town who were still on the ropes.

If the town thinks they're in twilight but they're not, it's not that big a deal. There's a slight delay before the moderator comes in and posts an accurate vote count, and it doesn't take much for some bandwagoner to pop on the last vote after that.

[PolarBoy]

If the mod doesn't want posting in twilight they should be prompt with night. I say it's fair game until then.

I'd like to tear this to shreds, I really would. But since it comes completely from left field I feel that I can't in good faith argue against it unless you elaborate on the reasoning leading to your conclusion.

[Yosarian2]

As for posting during twilight, I'm fairly against it. There has been more than one instance where a mafioso

thought

they had been lynched but were still one short. They confessed to being scum, which managed to convince other members of the town who were still on the ropes.

Heh...well, yeah, you've got to watch out for that. Also, never, ever gloat until AFTER the mod declares you the winner.

Still, I don't think that hurts the game; IMHO anything that makes people more paranoid and give people more chances to make mistakes or to set evil little traps improves the game.

[Crola]

I always specify in my rules that players can talk in twilight, I figure what's the harm?

If the mod does not specify, I will speak during twilight.