Posting in twilight - what is the default rule?

[Mr Stoofer]

Many mods, including me, specify in their rules whether posting in twilight is permissible. But some don't.

I've always assumed that posting in twilight is OK unless the Mod says otherwise, but it seems that not everyone shares that view. What do you think? If the Mod doesn't mention it in the rules, is it allowed?

[Cadmium]

I was thinking about this just the other day (not the twilight posting but the different rules).

IMO, it would be a great idea to compose a set of standard mafiascum rules which all games should follow unless stated otherwise by the moderator.

[shelper]

But the players can't accurately tell when it

is

twilight, can they?

The un-official vote counts may say one thing, but maybe some scenarios were activated where some peoples vote didn't count and twilight hadn't set it in at all.
Would the players just shut up, wait for the official vote count, and then go on with the day as normal?

[mith]

In this particular case, I think it's allowed if the mod doesn't say anything about it, but I tend to not say anything relevant once the last vote has been cast. That's just the way I play. But I tend to say most everything that needs to be said well before we get to that point.

(Cadmium) Agreed. It's already on the list.

Actually, as a slight aside, I think several standard rulesets would be useful. It would give mods another label to put on their game and would hopefully help get the right sort of player in the right type of game. For example, you could have a "Quick" ruleset, for those that want shorter games, with strict, short deadlines.

[PolarBoy]

Shelper, those concerns should be addressed by the mod before the game starts. If the mod has rules concerning what can and cannot happen during twilight, then there probably shouldn't be any question as to when twilight has started.

Even though I'm pretty sure that it's the default way of doing things, I'm not a big fan of the "post until the mod shows up" rule because twilight discussion may be cut off very quickly or drag on for a week for no reason better than when the mod had time to post the lynch scene.

On the other hand, Mith is right, very little of value actually can be said during twilight. The one really big thing that can happen during twilight is a townie revealing all of his information once he knows that he's been lynched. I suppose it's up to you as a mod whether you like a player to get that opportunity. You might put a time limit on twilight posting, or a post limit. This might be something to decide based on the scenario.

[halo freak]

I don't allow people to post during twilight in my games so i don't in others games.

[PolarBoy]

So you consider posting in twilight to be a breach of honor, or you simply forget that you might be allowed to?

[TBuG]

There are some rules that if it doesn't say anything about it, I assume it's allowed, like scum talking during the day and twilight talking.

[halo freak]

Well to be completely truthful i never bother reading the rules unless it is themed so i just assume it is like that, i won't get punished for not posting in twilight but i might get punished for posting so i just don't.

[rajrhcpfreak]

ok people may have already said this...

but in theme games the roles could have some weird flavor about votes being double or not getting a vote that day... so i talk untill the mod says its a lynch.

if its a good mod then there wont be much time inbetween the lynching vote and the lynch scene.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) I don't see any problem with twilight discussions. The less "Dead time" any mafia game has, the more active people will tend to be and the more interesting the game will be. Any kind of posting that is allowed can be used stratigically. There are also some interesting scum tells that I've noticed in some people's twilight posting habits.

[Thesp]

(shrug) I don't see any problem with twilight discussions. The less "Dead time" any mafia game has, the more active people will tend to be and the more interesting the game will be. Any kind of posting that is allowed can be used stratigically. There are also some interesting scum tells that I've noticed in some people's twilight posting habits.

Quoted for truthery. Also, I remember one game where the "no posting in twilight" rule was there, and I had some things I'd like to say, but deliberately did not because of the "no posting in twilight" rule. The scum ignored the rule, however, and it helped them mislead the town into a later missed lynch which lost the game for our town. I don't like the rule at all, and I'm really not sure why it's even there.

[Norinel]

if its a good mod then there wont be much time inbetween the lynching vote and the lynch scene.

Why should when the mod is online have an impact on the game's outcome?

[Mr Stoofer]

I want to be able to talk during twilight, I think it fits the flavour (i.e. a few last words as we are dragging the guy to the tree) and I allow it as a mod. Can anyone justify the "no talking rule"?

No one has actually given a reason for banning it.

[Commodore Amazing]

I want to be able to talk during twilight, I think it fits the flavour (i.e. a few last words as we are dragging the guy to the tree) and I allow it as a mod. Can anyone justify the "no talking rule"?

No one has actually given a reason for banning it.

As far as a practical stand point, it can take a long time for mafia to reach a decision at night. I have started conversations in twilight with other scum if I knew it was going to take a while to reach a decision.

You don't want scum and town talking at the same time.

Plus, if there's something someone wanted to reveal during twilight, hoping they'd get the chance before the mod came in, that's kind of silly to have them waiting around for the lynch vote.

EDIT: I guess you can fix the first problem by not allowing scum to communicate during twilight.

[Dourgrim]

I don't mind allowing talk in-thread during twilight... scum talking out of thread during twilight is a major no-no in my book, though. They are specifically allowed to talk at NIGHT, which does not occur until a Mod posts a death scene and announces Night. I would term talking outside the thread during twilight as cheating... but that might be just me. *shrug*

[Mr Stoofer]

I don't mind allowing talk in-thread during twilight... scum talking out of thread during twilight is a major no-no in my book, though. They are specifically allowed to talk at NIGHT, which does not occur until a Mod posts a death scene and announces Night. I would term talking outside the thread during twilight as cheating... but that might be just me. *shrug*

It's not just you... I completely agree. I'm shocked at the suggestion that scum could talk during twilight.

[Commodore Amazing]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who talks during twilight as scum, since someone who shall remain anonymous invited me to do the same.

I guess this ambiguity means there should be something in the rules that makes it clear one way or the other.

Obviously, I didn't mean to cheat.

[mith]

I think it fits the flavour (i.e. a few last words as we are dragging the guy to the tree)

It also fits the flavo(u)r for the guy we're dragging to the tree to get off a few last words but the mob is in too much of a frenzy to hear him.

I think Norinel's point is the most valid in favor of banning twilight posts. *If* there is anything to be gained by either side (most likely the town), that potential gain shouldn't depend on whether the person wanting to post in twilight happens to be on in the hours before the Mod calls it night.

(You could try to make the same argument for the other side: that a player might not be around just before the final vote is cast; but there it is something within the game ending day (the vote) rather than something outside the game (the mod). The mod, in theory at least, is intended to be a bookkeeper of sorts, organizing what has actually already taken place by the voting.)

Here's a question: If vote counts were automated, and the thread automatically locked when the majority was reached, would anyone have a problem with it? Or do you think there should *always* be some twilight period after the lynching vote is cast? (This is not an entirely hypothetical questions. Vote counts will be automated someday. Hopefully.)

[mith]

I don't mind allowing talk in-thread during twilight... scum talking out of thread during twilight is a major no-no in my book, though. They are specifically allowed to talk at NIGHT, which does not occur until a Mod posts a death scene and announces Night.

~shrug~ If you believe that night begins with the final vote, then they are not in the wrong. It is only your interpretation that says it's not night until the mod says so. I don't believe I have ever seen a ruleset that has actually specified where night begins. If anything, this:

"Lynching will be carried out once a regular majority is reached" (DP standard, and plenty of people copy it)

implies that at the very least, day is over as soon as that vote is cast. I think CA is right, here. If the mod does not have a clearly stated twilight rule, then the scum aren't breaking the rules any more than the town.

[Mr. Flay]

I do NOT agree that twilight allows mafia to begin their conversation, especially when the mod allows twilight conversation. Scum who can converse in realtime while the 'town' is still discussing what just happened is an advantage that is not intended, in my opinion.

I agree with Dourgrim and Stoofer.. I suppose now we need to ask jeep to implement some sort of PM-freeze for when a player's thread is open. And here I thought we worked on the honor system with regard to night/external conversation.

[mith]

Scum who can converse in realtime while the 'town' is still discussing what just happened is an advantage that is not intended, in my opinion.

Indeed. But that doesn't answer why you think they shouldn't be allowed to begin their conversation when the mod *doesn't* allow (in-thread) twilight conversation.

[BabyJesus]

I don't mind allowing talk in-thread during twilight... scum talking out of thread during twilight is a major no-no in my book, though. They are specifically allowed to talk at NIGHT, which does not occur until a Mod posts a death scene and announces Night. I would term talking outside the thread during twilight as cheating... but that might be just me. *shrug*

It's not just you... I completely agree. I'm shocked at the suggestion that scum could talk during twilight.

I let scum talk during the day in my game....doesn;t really break the game...

[VisMaior]

I think it is a major advantage if scum can coordinate everything during the day.

[Narninian]

automatic vote counts + automatic thread lock would be hella-cool.