Mini 1186: Repo! The Genetic Mafia - Game Over!


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:42 pm

Post by bvoigt »

Haylen wrote:
Bvoigt wrote:This explanation gives me a bad gut feeling. Why do you need to mention that you FoS'ed her earlier?


I put that there as an explanation for voting camn, why do you assume that it's ok to vote for people with no reasons attached?


It's not "no reasons" when you've outlined them in previous posts...I find it scummy that you were concerned enough with the appearance of the vote to make sure we knew it wasn't just sheeping. (Not an especially strong tell, but worth mentioning.)

Pine is repeating "it's antitown," but he still can't explain why camn is more likely to be scum.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:44 pm

Post by Pine »

ANTI-TOWN ACTIONS ARE BY DEFINITION SCUMMY.

YOU'RE SPLITTING HAIRS INSTEAD OF DOING ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING. THEY MEAN THE SAME GODDAMN THING.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:58 pm

Post by InflatablePie »

VC #3 - The Decaf Coffee Votecount

Haylen (3): Yosarian2, Incognito, PeregrineV
camn (2): Medicated Lain, Pine
Pine (2): bvoigt, camn
MehPlusRawr (1): TripMyWire
Battle Mage (1): Green Crayons
PeregrineV (1): Magua

Not Voting (3): MehPlusRawr, Battle Mage, Haylen

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or 7 to No Lynch.
Deadline is at 10 AM Eastern on July 1st.
Please notify me of any votecount mistakes.

Battle Mage is being prodded.

~This VC has been edited to reflect the proper count.~
(twice)
Last edited by InflatablePie on Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:58 pm

Post by Green Crayons »

TripMyWire wrote:3. The thing that stood out to me the most so far this game, however, was Pine's opening post.
Pine wrote:I don't care if you did it as Town. Mass nameclaiming at this point in the day is an anti-Town suggestion. Don't ever do that as Town again.
When I first read it I thought I caught a whiff of scum due to the content as well as the tone. The last sentence initially struck me as some kind of a slip... and it just doesn't sit right with me. The more I think about it, however, the less scummy I feel with it... mostly because of the way that quote started saying "IF you did it as Town." It's just kind of a gut thing at the moment.


This here makes me feel like Trip is the most probable town player because the description of his reaction to Pine describes my own almost to a T.

--

The fact that Pine refuses to explain why camn's actions are scummy instead of poor play (ugh, even still) is unfortunate and indicative of his overwhelming (apparently) uncooperative personality. But I'm not struck with my same initial chord of suspicion.

We get it, Pine. You think it was a scummy action. But that's a conclusion. You have to back that up with the reasons as to why it is a scummy action
and not just bad play
.

--

Sup
Battle Mage
want to post? (Oh hey MOD prod, too.)
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:19 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Green Crayons wrote:
1. The fact that you're stating the obvious is bad because what you have added to the conversation is fluff. It's fluff because the very narrow point that you're making - that name claiming at this point in the game is a bad idea - had already been made to some degree by numerous other players at the time of your post (see 3. below). It's an attempt to look like you're contributing when you are not. Your question about "why are we talking about name-claim" appears diversionary. We're talking about a name-claim because camn made a really bad suggestion. There's nothing more to say about that, so I'm not sure what your point is.


This is an ENTIERLY self defeating argument.

Either it's obvious, or it's not. If it's clearly anti-town then Camn, one of the best players in this game, shouldn't have suggested it unless she's scum, and she needed to be asked about it. If it's unclear, then it needed to be said. Honestly, both are probably true; Camn should have know, but just because mass-name claim is obviously anti-town to me and to you, it dosn't mean there wasn't a significant risk of other people just randomally starting to claim because of that comment. Stuff like that happens ALL THE TIME. I can't remember when the last time is I played a game when I *DIDN'T* see people claim for terrible reasons when they obviously shouldn't have.

Also, I'm pretty sure I was the first person to actually explain WHY mass name clam in this specific setup was such a bad idea, so no, the point "had no been made".


2. The fact that you're answering a question that wasn't directed at you is bad because there's no reason for you to answer it. You're not preempting anyone from responding, that's true. But your response is unnecessary. The question has been answered. Exactly on the points that you have provided. Once again, this makes your post look like filler.


Your whole argument is this terrible "your post was unnecessary" thing. My post was entierly necessary.

For that matter, why are you leaping in here instead of just letting Camn respond for herself? The way she answered it might have given me a decent read on her alignment, and you've probably screwed that up now.


3. Your post in no way contributes what you are suggesting it does in the quote above.


Again, this is just badly wrong. Even if all I was doing was agreeing with what other people had already said (and I was not), doing that is a really good idea when there's such an anti-town suggestion on the table.



Finally, the fact that you're qualifying (what I believe to be) a fairly benign, "intro-suspicion" inquiry post (#79) as an attack is interesting. Heck, I even undercut the force of any suspicion I had by suggesting in that very post about how wishy-washy I was to even post my suspicion. But to you, this is an attack?


Of course it was an attack. In what universe is this not an attack?

Green Crayons wrote:I've been going back and forth on this post of yours. I think I'm landing on the "not liking" side of the fence. It's just a very, very bland post. Apart from stating the obvious, it's stating the obvious to a question that was not directed at you, as well as stating the obvious that has already been put into the thread by the person to whom the question was asked (post 60). It feels like an attempt to look active and engaged but is actually a very bad attempt at doing so.


I'm a little confused why you're now denying it was an attack. Yes, it's a slightly wishy washy attack, but what you were getting at was pretty obvious.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:22 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Green Crayons wrote:

We get it, Pine. You think it was a scummy action. But that's a conclusion. You have to back that up with the reasons as to why it is a scummy action
and not just bad play
.


You've got your burden of proof reversed there, I think. If someone does something that helps the scum and hurts the town, the first logical conclusion is that they are more likely to be scum then they were before they did that act. If you want to argue that it's null, that it was "just bad play", then you need to actually make that argument.
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:07 pm

Post by Green Crayons »

Yos, have you even looked at the entirety of page three (posts 50 - 74) of this thread? Your 104 and 105 read as if you've only made a cursory glance to that page.

Page three contains:
- Lain's post 60 of which your post 76 is a replica.
- All of camn's posts containing a back-and-forth about why she posted her suggestion. So, no, your post wasn't some great new insight just on the cusp of figuring it all out. Also, you post 76 was a dead end. Taking post 76 alone, it was not constructed in any manner to illicit some sort of reaction from camn. You know: the kind of reaction and explanation that is seen in camn's page three posts. From her responding to questions and prodding on the issue (which is not what post 76 is). The fact that you're now claiming that I have messed up the impending alignment read is mind boggling.
- All of the negative responses to camn's bad suggestion, showing a general town consensus that it was a bad idea. It also contains camn herself backing away from people actually claiming. It does not contain a hint of anyone agreeing with her idea.
- camn's post 66, showing her prior two mini theme games where she suggested a mass name claim in the early stages of the game. This is evidence that camn's suggestion is her new pet bad play style.


I don't really know what else to say. Several of your points are simply refuted by looking at page three. Apart from that, I think you've poorly addressed my issues. I don't think a quote-wall war would be productive so I guess I'll just leave them for the time being. 104 and 105 come across as scatterbrained and defensive, which doesn't jive with my understanding (generalized and not well formed as it may be) of your usual posting/play style.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:26 pm

Post by camn »

Pine wrote:Next time you play as Town, don't do something that staggeringly anti-Town, and people like me won't get an immediate scumread on you.

This time, though, you did it and I have a scumread from it. If you're Town, you're doing nothing to dissuade me.

I
hope
people "like you" DO get a scum read on me. By that I mean people who forget to come play the game, and then when they do, cant be bothered to actually read and comprehend what is going on.
Why? Because it reminds me to make sure you are nowhere to be found come endgame. Either you are scum, or just not paying attention. I think scum.
And since tossing tons of attitude seems to be your favorite method of communication, let me reiterate:
I dont need advice on pro-town play from YOU.
Look at your ISO. I dare you. Then come back here and point out where you have done a single thing for this game at all.

And Yos: As someone I respect very much once told me, I am QUITE precise in my posting. (well, I try to be). Go look at my question about massclaim again. Asking about it did what I meant it to do. I, for one, consider the matter closed.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:32 pm

Post by Incognito »

Haylen wrote:I've become increasingly paranoid in games to the point of refusing to believe power roles aren't scum pretending to be power roles and cop results because YOU NEVER KNOW WHO'S TRYING TO SCREW YOU OVER.
Right... That's why you "congratulated" me on my camn-find and voted her almost as quickly as you "congratulated" me (p.s. I'm being sarcastic).

Haylen wrote:That doesn't make sense, because if you were probing hard enough, you would have looked into camn's current meta to establish a full picture. Since camn has explained her new meta, I'm not quite sure why your vote is still on her.
I'm not even voting her anymore; I'm voting you.
Further, why would I take all this time and energy to look into current meta when I'm not even pushing for camn's lynch at this point? That'd be dumb.

-~-~-~

bvoigt <-> Pine seems like nothing more than a semantics disagreement. That said, I don't see what Trip and Green Crayons are seeing about Pine's "slip"; I don't think Pine's use of the word "if" there is exactly the same way Trip has described it.

Pine: A response to my 81 would be lovely.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:41 pm

Post by camn »

It's a real slip, incog. It's not too blatant, because that's what slips ARE!!
His response to me was perfectly scummy.

"I don't know you're town cuz I'm voting you see?"

Totally scum.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:46 pm

Post by Incognito »

I'd normally agree with you but some of his indignance following that post is making me think he actually believes in what he's saying. Which is kinda stupid and scary coming from him, but I can't ignore that.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:48 pm

Post by Pine »

Incog, your first couple of posts just struck me oddly. I can't really put my finger on it, but it comes off as nervous and too-eager to make a good impression. Then when you had two people you were expressing suspicion of, you used a random number generator to choose which to vote for, instead of logical deduction.

It looked out of place to me, but not a definitive tell one way or the other. Suspicious, but not damning. Hence, FOS.

I am deliberately choosing to ignore camn et al for now. This debate has rapidly devolved from rational to mudslinging and strawman attacks, and I will not be a party to that. I am considering replacing out, as this is not the kind of environment I want to play this game in.

@Mod: Hey Pie, can you do something to reign in your players? I'm not easily offended, but this just isn't fun for me.
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:54 pm

Post by Incognito »

Pine, I think the problem people are running into is this: your definition of "anti-town" is vastly different from everyone else's in this game.

Everyone else in this game is defining "anti-town" as something that could hinder town but that could come from
either
town or scum. Whereas your definition has anti-town being a complete synonym with "scummy." I used to think of the two words as being synonymous too when I first started playing Mafia, but I realize now that there is a pretty strong difference.

I don't think you should replace out over it though.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:00 pm

Post by Pine »

I don't care about semantics, Incog. I care about the aggressive, personal attacks and the unwillingness to engage in rational debate in preference to hair-splitting and "la-la-la I can't hear you" attitudes.

So if this doesn't markedly improve, I will be replacing out.
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:22 pm

Post by Magua »

The crux is this:

Pine wrote:
I don't care if you did it
as Town.
Mass nameclaiming at this point in the day is an anti-Town suggestion.
Don't ever do that as Town again.


My bolding.

The first is the worst of the two, IMO, because it indicates cognizance of the idea that camn may be town (which I, for instance, think is true), but an uncaring of trying to determine whether that's the case or not. I find that to be scummy.

The second is what people are calling the slip.

So, Pine: If something that is antitown is scummy, why did you include "I don't care if you're Town" at all? I'm not getting that thought process.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:37 pm

Post by Pine »

Camn provided a reference where she'd done it previously as Town. The first bolding is NOT present tense. It is past tense.

The second bolding is not present tense, it is future tense.

Rewritten for clarity:

I don't care if you did it once as Town. Mass nameclaiming at this point in the day is an anti-Town suggestion. In future games you play as Town, don't do it again.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:48 pm

Post by Magua »

Ok. Did you vote camn because you thought she was scum, or to punish bad play?
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:13 pm

Post by Pine »

They're not mutually exclusive.

Acting scummy (oh hey, I
can
adapt to the term someone prefers when they're not being dickish!) warrants a vote regardless. If they turn out to be Town, then it doubles as a corrective measure for next time. Bad Town play = acting scummy and giving Town false leads.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:17 pm

Post by Pine »

^Last sentence is an oversimplification. Acting scummy and giving Town false leads is bad Town play, but that is not the entirety of what qualifies as bad Town play. This whole debacle over splitting hairs also qualifies, but is not also scummy.

In fact, the objection I had is
also
bad scum play, because it is so obviously anti-Town. Either way, don't do it again, because such blatant scumminess can provoke only one rational response in my book.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:36 pm

Post by camn »

You probably should replace out. I am just warming up :)

I notice Pine has refused my dare. I am certain it is because he can't actually produce a single bit of usefulness from his posts so far.
He can appeal to both emotion and authority, though...
Plus, he gets more hypocritical by the post, since his OWN play is about as "anti-town" as I have seen in a while.

Do we let him off the hook because of his join date?
I don't.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:41 pm

Post by InflatablePie »

Pine wrote:
@Mod: Hey Pie, can you do something to reign in your players? I'm not easily offended, but this just isn't fun for me.


I see no personal attacks or anything punishable by warning or modkill, if you're asking me to uphold Rule 22. I don't mind continuing this conversation via PM, if you wish to debate my verdict or show proof to the contrary.


Also, players,
please try to make votes/unvotes on a separate line if possible.
I missed an unvote due to not catching it on a skimthrough (the previous VC has, of course, been edited to reflect the actual votecount). Thanks!
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:26 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

camn wrote:
And Yos: As someone I respect very much once told me, I am QUITE precise in my posting. (well, I try to be). Go look at my question about massclaim again. Asking about it did what I meant it to do. I, for one, consider the matter closed.


Ok.

Were you at all worried about the possibility that someone might respond with a "Sure, that's a good idea, my role name is _______; battle mage, you go next"?
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:18 am

Post by Magua »

No, Pine doesn't get let off the hook because of his join date. I've seen him play in three other games, and he's done just fine. I've never seen him (IMO) overreact like this to pressure before, so that's new.

@Pine:
Let me rephrase my question. Do you actually think camn is scum? If you couldn't vote camn, who would you be voting now?
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:26 am

Post by Pine »

For the last fucking time, this one with no frills or equivocation:

Yes, I found Camn's play scummy, most noticeably in the stunningly anti-Town suggestion of a massclaim.

Yes, I always meant this.

Further, I find Camn's reaction to my suspicion even MORE scummy than my initial reasons.

If I could not vote for Camn, I'd be voting for Green Crayons or Incognito, in that order. The latter's reaction to suspicion has allayed some of my doubts, but does not clear him.

Finally, I do not deal in absolutes. That is the province of scum and Masons, and I am neither. I will, however, have to remember to write clearly and use small words with this group.
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:36 am

Post by Magua »

Pine wrote:For the last fucking time, this one with no frills or equivocation:

Yes, I found Camn's play scummy, most noticeably in the stunningly anti-Town suggestion of a massclaim.


I disagree on camn. I think she's ubertown.
I think Green Crayons is town as well.

Do you see how I would be distrustful of your position when your reads are so radically different from mine?

Do you see how I would be distrustful of someone who says, "X doing Y indicates that they're scum" when it's been shown that X does Y as town? (I don't care, at this point, about whether Y is good for the town or not. I'm only caring about whether X doing Y is an indication that they're scum or not.)

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