/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Kmd4390]

I dunnoi don't want to go into too much detail on why, but I don't like the idea of power roles not being allowed to claim if they are close to being lynched. Also, most "lynch on sight" plans don't tend to be followed through.

vote janitor and roleblock

. I don't see myself changing my mind.

[DrippingGoofball]

Is the day rolecop that powerful? Roleblocker is marginally more lame.

vote: janitor

[Ellibereth]

Vote: Janitor

[DrippingGoofball]

Vote: Janitor

^^^ town

[Hoopla]

JANITOR IS A STUPID CHOICE, SERIOUSLY

[mith]

Howdy, all.

I'll start by stating that I totally disagree with Hoopla on Vigilante strategy. The number of days we have isn't as important as the number of kills the town controls, and the Vigilante role is our best chance at increasing that number. It's exactly the reason we don't want to give the scum the Assassin - it potentially increases their number of kills.

(On a related note: Troll, mith can't say with any certainty what mith would have argued for as scum, since mith no scum. But mith do find the Hider and especially the Weak Doc to be double-edged, since they have the potential to provide extra town deaths, and since their ability to confirm innocents is limited/risky. So, mith think it possible scum included either or both and in multiples. That said, mith thinking the Jailkeeper is the weakest, the Tracker is a long-shot, and there are many reasons scum might have given us a Vigilante - such as scumHoopla thinking she can talk the Vig out of using the ability. So mith unsure what good speculation on the roles will do, aside from giving scum hints at what fake claims might be more viable.)

The Janitor is more annoying than harmful, and the Rolecop is strictly stronger than the Roleblocker. I think Janitor/Roleblocker is probably best, though my second choice would be Rolecop/Roleblocker (not a lot of synergy between those roles).

[Plum]

Hoopla: I'll give you credit for thinking outside of the box or something, but no. Just no. Potentially giving the scum two extra kills aimed at some of our most useful players is really not something I like to contemplate, basically ever. So with a no PR claim agreement it might or might not come into play (if we're willing to risk it on something that'd be substantially luck-based). But I think choosing it mainly to remove WIFOM/Paranoia in the PR claim is bad. Scum have pretty limited powerrole claim options anyway, given the nature of the setup. We can adopt a no PR claims sort of thing if we feel like it anyway - the benefits of your plan, assuming we really don't want Janitor, are approximately the same as a Roleblocker/Rolecop combination with a no PR claims policy, except that the scum don't have the slender but very plausible chance at eating away at our powerroles with extra bullets. Unless I'm reading the thing incorrectly, the Assassin's shots can be used separately or together, which means that two good guesses by the scum = instant death for the Town.

Look at it this way - it's not individual roles which are necessarily bad options, but combinations where the roles complement each other and make them stronger than the sum of their parts (with one important exception):

- Rolecop is a fairly safe option with Janitor, but kinda stinks with Roleblocker (because they can find and block powerroles who haven't been outed, or block an outed powerrole who may be protected by a Weak Doc while killing a powerrole found by the Rolecop) and is absolute suicide with Assassin.
- Assassin is flat out of the question. That's the exception.
- Janitor works fine with Roleblocker and with Rolecop, basically. I'd probably lean towards Janitor + Rolecop over Janitor + Roleblocker. Ehhhhhh. Maybe not; it depends if we're more worried about scum finding and killing PRs who haven't been outed or screwing us over when we want an outed one to come through big. And because the last depends on stuff like protection we may well not even have . . . I guess I'd go Janitor/Roleblocker.
- Roleblocker is horrendous with Assassin and, as above, bad to team with Rolecop.

EDIT: mith disagrees with me about Rolecop/Roleblocker having synergy or not. Explain, mith?

[Ellibereth]

JANITOR IS A STUPID CHOICE, SERIOUSLY

I DON'T GET WHY.
I mean, wagon analysis isn't affected that much. Well, it's only affected when the janitor'ed guy was on some other wagon but we should be able to adjust for that.
Lylo...uh...just assume we're there early as possible? I dunno.
Yeah actually, not knowing a flip late game would be annoying...lynch all the scum before we get to late game?
I think Rolecop is strong with Roleblocker though.

Bleh I dunno, I'd take either.

[Ellibereth]

btw I totally would have suggested 4 VIGS as scum. double-edged-swords are awesome.

[Kmd4390]

Is mith an alt? I've never seen him in a game but he seems to know what he is talking about.

[Hoopla]

The Janitor is more annoying than harmful, and the Rolecop is strictly stronger than the Roleblocker. I think Janitor/Roleblocker is probably best, though my second choice would be Rolecop/Roleblocker (not a lot of synergy between those roles).

Are you serious? You too? I didn't expect that.

By choosing the janitor, you're basically signing away any chance at effective bandwagon analysis, as it is largely dependent on how many scum are in the game, and the D1 lynch wagon is usually a very rich source of information. Even late in the game, knowing whether to be searching for a scumpair or an individual can alter your decisions a lot.

Powerroles won't come anywhere near winning this game for us. Giving them up slightly quicker

is

worth it.

[Kmd4390]

Hoopla, lynch analysis is one of the biggest parts of my game. I don't think the janitor hurts that as much as you are saying.

[Plumegranate]

Screw up. But I've learned to repost for convenience of all:

Hoopla: I'll give you credit for thinking outside of the box or something, but no. Just no. Potentially giving the scum two extra kills aimed at some of our most useful players is really not something I like to contemplate, basically ever. So with a no PR claim agreement it might or might not come into play (if we're willing to risk it on something that'd be substantially luck-based). But I think choosing it mainly to remove WIFOM/Paranoia in the PR claim is bad. Scum have pretty limited powerrole claim options anyway, given the nature of the setup. We can adopt a no PR claims sort of thing if we feel like it anyway - the benefits of your plan, assuming we really don't want Janitor, are approximately the same as a Roleblocker/Rolecop combination with a no PR claims policy, except that the scum don't have the slender but very plausible chance at eating away at our powerroles with extra bullets. Unless I'm reading the thing incorrectly, the Assassin's shots can be used separately or together, which means that two good guesses by the scum = instant death for the Town.

Look at it this way - it's not individual roles which are necessarily bad options, but combinations where the roles complement each other and make them stronger than the sum of their parts (with one important exception):

- Rolecop is a fairly safe option with Janitor, but kinda stinks with Roleblocker (because they can find and block powerroles who haven't been outed, or block an outed powerrole who may be protected by a Weak Doc while killing a powerrole found by the Rolecop) and is absolute suicide with Assassin.
- Assassin is flat out of the question. That's the exception.
- Janitor works fine with Roleblocker and with Rolecop, basically. I'd probably lean towards Janitor + Rolecop over Janitor + Roleblocker. Ehhhhhh. Maybe not; it depends if we're more worried about scum finding and killing PRs who haven't been outed or screwing us over when we want an outed one to come through big. And because the last depends on stuff like protection we may well not even have . . . I guess I'd go Janitor/Roleblocker.
- Roleblocker is horrendous with Assassin and, as above, bad to team with Rolecop.

EDIT: mith disagrees with me about Rolecop/Roleblocker having synergy or not. Explain, mith?

[Rhinox]

Vote: Deadline option #1

[(1) Three week deadline on day 1, then two week deadlines thereafter]

I don't like janitor, even though it is only 1-shot. I've been in a couple no-reveal/limited reveal games, and they've all dragged. I think a no reveal early game would seriously hinder the town for the rest of the game.

Assassin isn't all too bad, other than it can potentially give the scum 2 extra nks. It can't be used to end the game, so if it gets close to end game and the role hasn't been used, it becomes worthless. Early game, its not likely to be used because the 2 shots will be wasted if they aren't against PR's. So, as long as its not paired with Role Cop, the biggest threat from assassin comes mid game after a PR is outed. Considering that after a PR is outed they are usually nked or RBed anyways, giving the mafia an extra kill to take them out isn't too horrible.

Role cop isn't horrible, but I wouldn't want it paired with assassin. Or RB really, but not as bad as being paired with assassin. If scum use the role to kill a PR rather than kill a VT who might be a better player/scum hunter, I consider that a win. Assuming scum gave the town roles they felt were least helpful, I doubt they would be particular concerned with killing PR's anyways.

RB, pretty standard role. Like assassin, not too hurtful until a PR is outed, given that it is a limited shot.

I actually like hoopla's recent idea the best - assassin + RB and no PR claims.

[mith]

Plum: In most cases, I would think the scum would just kill any power role the Rolecop found. Leaving power roles alive and blocking them seems an entirely pointless exercise, except for the Hider.

Hoopla: To say we would be "basically signing away any chance at effective bandwagon analysis" is absurd. That said, I'm still mulling it over, and am starting to lean toward the "Rolecop isn't that strong, and while no reveal wouldn't be devestating the annoyance would probably push us toward poorer decisions" line of thinking.

Couldn't care less on the deadlines.

Vote: Roleblocker

[SpyreX]

I could see A scenario or two in which found PR's would be blocked versus killed. But, overall, unlikely.

Saying all analysis is ruined a.) requires the use of it D1 and b.) isn't true. Its skewed some but definitely nowhere near the lengths you're portraying Hoop.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla: I'll give you credit for thinking outside of the box or something, but no. Just no.

Potentially giving the scum two extra kills aimed at some of our most useful players

is really not something I like to contemplate, basically ever.

Where'd you get the most useful bit from? Power roles aren't divvied up to the awesome scumhunters. It's an extra chance at two extra scum kills, but the chances of scum pulling this off is low. Only 25% of our roles are power - this percentage will fluctuate up and down based on who our deaths are, but it will take until at least N3 (likely N4) until it even has a

chance

of something close to being 50%. The point is, scum have low odds of getting a double-kill, because they have to take the ~25% chances early (N1/N2) or risk the assassin dying before using it's quota. It could improve it's odds by living longer, but again, it'll almost certainly always be below a coin flip for scum if no town PR claims.

Scum fakeclaims are a very real possibility in this set-up because of the clause allowing two of each power role. That rule largely removes counterclaims from the system which is something towns often rely on to net scum. Unless we set about hammering PR claims, it is very likely we won't lynch scum D1 or D2, because they'll have safe enough fakeclaims to fall back on should they reach L-1. We need to remove PR claims, because they enable space for scum to hide in and a chance to push out their individual survival another day or two. This concept of 'claiming before you're lynched' favours scum more than town, because exposed town PR's are virtually worthless, good for only chewing up the NK/roleblock, whilst scum potentially gain an extra day or two of living as they have safe claims early on (and maybe later).

By removing town PR claims we do not lose too much of our additional night power to inhibit or catch scum. Investigative roles need to outlive the Assassin (or be lynched after claiming), and all the other roles just function as 'extra day makers', either stopping/saving kills or killing scum. They have little reason to claim, as their results are often ambiguous, which means we don't sacrifice that much by cutting off claiming.

I feel better about the Assassin/RB/No PR claim until Assassin is dead plan. Thanks Rhinox!

[zoraster]

Briefly on to check e-mail and what not, but I'm still on V/LA until Friday. My first thought is Roleblocker is better to give than anything else. The Jan will be annoying and will have serious late-game repercussion. As this is a semi-open game, the Jan will take away the advantage that this provides to the town.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Janitor (4) -- SpyreX, Kmd4390, DrippingGoofball, Ellibereth
Rolecop (1) -- Hoopla
Roleblocker (4) -- Hoopla, Ellibereth, Kmd4390, mith

Deadlines

Number one (1) -- Rhinox
Number two (2) -- Hoopla, SpyreX

[zoraster]

Edit: I think the assassin route is one worth considering, though I don't have the time or inclination to think it throught... just enough to exhort you to consider it very seriously.

[Plumegranate]

@Hoopla:

Um, I was merely referencing that powerroles can make players into more useful players by their very fact. Obviously VTs can be damn useful, often more useful than some of the powerrole-players in a game. But in relatively decent hands - and I have a fairly good opinion, at least, of everyone in this game - powerroles make players into things potentially and often actively more useful for the Town. I'll respond to the rest of your bit soonish, but my intention wasn't to imply that the best scumhunters we have are likely to have gotten the powers, but that the people who have powers are among the people we'd least like to lose.

[Patrick]

Mod: Do roleblocks resolve hides?

A roleblock would stop a hider performing it's night-action, if that's what you're asking.

[zoraster]

Last, and sorry to keep posting but I can't help myself but start to get involved: Consider that our roles are likely to be 2 hiders who it really won't hurt to lose. Roleblocking that won't hurt, and assassinating that won't hurt.

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: Hoopla

Oh wait.

VOTE: Janitor
VOTE: Roleblocker
VOTE: Option 2

Dum dee dum.

[populartajo]

Vote: Papa Zito.

My first instinct is that janitor and assassin are no-nos. Extra kills for scumz is horrible and ability to mess up with vital information is harmful in the long run. Even if its one shot, the information of one day in regards to wagon analysis, counterwagons, number of scum left, etc. is critical for late choices.

So if I had to pick now, Id go with roleblocker-rolecop.

Also whats up with people voting for choices asap and saying they wont change their mind. Thats why we have a day 0. Think, people.

I really need to think more about the assasin-roleblocker-no PR claim stuff. Hoopla, can you be clearer about this?

Finally, I think everyone should claim what roles they would have given to town if they were scum. Scumbags already know this information so I dont see it doing any harm.

Ill start. Id have given 2 trackers and 2 vigs.

Go on.