/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: Hoopla

Oh wait.

VOTE: Janitor
VOTE: Roleblocker
VOTE: Option 2

Dum dee dum.

[Papa Zito]

Hello. I was prodded. I'm just waiting for this business to be over so we can start hunting the scumz.

[Papa Zito]

ATTN: Slicey, and anyone else bored by the strategy talk.

Ohhai.

Guys, seriously, why can't we just pick something and play the game/lynch Hoopla? There's no perfect plan here and watching you all spin in circles trying to find one makes me dizzy.

[Papa Zito]

OMG

Anyway I reread Assassin and it doesn't seem so bad once I got past my knee-jerk to the name. I think I'd be fine with a Roleblocker/Assassin combo.

Please please please can we please end this soon please? Also please.

[Papa Zito]

Always look on the briiiiight side of life, dee do, dee do dee do dee do.

I oppose any claiming strategy.

Good man.

[Papa Zito]

MME + Hoopla + ? + ?

Ya'll hurry up and pick something.

[Papa Zito]

We shouldn't claim anything. Claiming is useless. We should be picking some crap to give to the scum that won't matter because we're lynching them anyway. And we should do it before this DAY 0 drags to eternity.

[Papa Zito]

Hider claim?
Yes - 1 (Plumegranate)
No - 3 (ekiM, Amished, PZ)

Massclaim?
Yes - 0 ()
No - 4 (ekiM, Plumegranate, Amished, PZ)

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Papa Zito]

Okay it's pretty obvious that most of the crowd wants nothing to do with this claim business. No more claim talking.

It's also pretty obvious that people have accepted Roleblocker as one of the power options. Let's please hammer this and move on (dammit).

After that we can slug it out over Janitor vs. Assassin, and really at this point I don't care. But do the above stuff first so I can at least pretend we're making progress.

[Papa Zito]

I'll answer Troll's post when it's less midnight.

[Papa Zito]

I'm not a hider?

What is this mess.

Troll, you still want answers to stuff or is it moot at this point?

[Papa Zito]

@Papa Zito, anything that we need to talk about based on what Troll said earlier can wait till day one starts at this point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Ok.

So Janitor went down. Now we just need to hammer roleblocker and the game can finally start. Huzzah.

[Papa Zito]

Hoopla is covered in cake.

[Papa Zito]

I dunno. I'm not sure when 24 hours is up.

[Papa Zito]

I like Herod's plan. Tho I don't think we have 12 people sitting here silently agreeing. Or how we'd figure out if they are.

If at some point there's someone who's so so so scum that we would want to quicklynch them anyway then we might happen to do it fast enough to stop the janitor being online in time to use their ability... but I don't see why they would want to use is there. Not worth adjusting our play around at any rate.

Not letting the janitor sweep up means we get to see a scum PR flip.

Also, janitor can't sweep himself up, Herod.

False. Reread the role.

[Papa Zito]

Well.

VOTE: Hoopla

Let's go then.

[Papa Zito]

no u

Plus it's not like this is a big surprise.

[Papa Zito]

DGB is DGB.

Also Hoopla is Hoopla.

We should have a wagon race. Whoever fills up first wins!

[Papa Zito]

Why are you voting in that manner based on the events of Day 0 while you were basically completely uninterested in getting views and so on during it?

I'm voting Hoopla cuz she's scum. Zoraster's pretty upset about it too, look how this is paying dividends already.

[Papa Zito]

Let's restate. You think she's scum, clearly voting her is fine, but that is based on things that happened in Day 0; so you must have suspected her back then, but didn't question or pressure her, in order to get good info for later. To me, it looks a little like you didn't actually do anything until Day 1, where you're sort-of-required to throw a vote out. Do you see my view?

I did suspect her back then. In fact, take a look at post 0 in my iso. However, Day 0 was Boring Mechanics Day.

Also I'm not required to throw a vote out at the beginning of Day 1. But I want to see Hoopla hang, see.

Papa Zito, Troll: You two have hydra'd together several times. I'd be interested in your current reads on each other

Papa Zito be unable to read Troll in a reliable way. Papa Zito finds him be quite capable of masking true intent while appearing as a paragon of towniness.

That said, I think his hider stuff Day 0 was terrible and more scum-motivated than town. Also law of averages.

@Papa Zito, what be your opinion about games without alignment reveals? (Mind you, Troll believes Troll knows the answer to that but would prefer that you be the one who shares it now.) What made you pick janitor as one of the two roles you would like to give scum?

I find them crippling. What was that one game... I think it was Plum's, where you'd lynch people but they wouldn't flip right away, and you'd have to vote them again to make them flip. It was absolutely maddening.

ITT though the janitor is one-shot, and that's what attracted me. I like the idea of giving scum a role they can only use once, and then effectively become vanilla.

Oh wait, how am I missing out on the KMD wagon?

Duh.

Vote: KMD

Haha look at this.

[Papa Zito]

@Papa Zito, really, you think that the hider claim idea was terrible and more scum-motivated than town-motivated?

Er, yes. Which is kinda why I said it.

town now be explicitly in a better position in terms of knowledge of the setup. What be the scum motivation there and how does it be terrible.

It was a big fat rolefishing expedition. Scum want to know who the powerroles are.

So if you thought that the janitor would give a crippling result restricted to just one day what were your thoughts of the rolecop and assassin.

I think that's just about the worst combo possible. I'm not sure why we're having this conversation now?

It's clear now we have no Hiders.

Is it?

This is not an explanation for not pressuring someone you suspect; why didn't you?

Because it was Boring Mechanics Day.

@Papa Zito, Troll realizes that you no particularly like to try to get into the game mechanics at the start. You have demonstrated that on multiple occasions in games that Troll has played with you. That no means that what we do here in terms of claims be useless as you be saying. Whether we claim various things or not and what roles we give the scum based on that actually does much to effect the shape of the game and making the best choice about that now after thinking about it should improve our chances of winning. The fact that we have a Day 0 and have these choices in the game means that we should be approaching this game differently than we do most games; we explicitly have a time when setup speculation be helpful and taking advantage of that helps us.

I'm not sure what you want here, Plum. This is Zorblag chiding Papa Zito even though Zorblag knows (and demonstrates in the first few sentences of this paragraph) that Papa Zito could give a rat's ass about this sort of thing.

Zorblag is free to chide me as much as he wants of course but that's not going to suddenly make me more interested in what I consider a boring part of the game. All I want to do is lynch the scum; I really don't care what shiny toys they get, they're all going to die anyway to who cares really. Especially when the PRs available all are fairly weak and crappy anyway.

I love killin me people but this KMD wagon seems to be growing on its own fat. Que?

It's the obv Hoopla counterwagon, SpyreX. Come on man.

[Papa Zito]

How about your thoughts on the rolecop or the assassin individually (which be what Troll was asking)?

I wouldn't have voted for rolecop under any circumstance. I also mentioned in thread that I was okay with the assassin after re-reading the role. Maybe you could just go back and read my posts instead of grandstanding?

While we're here... plz to explain why Hoopla's sudden debilitating inability to play the game somehow makes her a less ideal lynch.

@PZ: Why do you think Troll's hider stuff day 0 was scum-motivated? What was the scum's goal?

To find the hider(s). Is this one of those forest/trees situations where people are missing the obvious?

Current theory is that there are one or two hiders out there who were smart enough not to claim despite all the noise in the thread about them. I guess we'll see.

And if you can get impressions of peoples' alignments from day 0, then why do you think it was only boring mechanics?

The purpose of the day was to decide what the scum get. If I was to charge in there and start trying to pressure people (without a vote, no less) then I'd be distracting from what was supposed to be happening.

[Papa Zito]

I'll respond to some of this goofiness tomorrow.

[Papa Zito]

So our transformer exploded (POW) which means I'm posting from my phone. Which also means I can't quote and I'm prolly gonna miss some stuff here.

Hoopla's 23/f/aus was lulz, though not as lulz as the wagon jump. Yes mith she's dodging questions.

Amished saying I'm scum with Hoopla is also lulz and proves he's not paying attention to the game, but rather point-scoring. He should also send zoraster the PZ Is An Asshole Club (PIAAC) intro materials for new members.

Crap, I got a phone call in the middle of this and forgot some stuff.

Hiders? Troll was rambling about some things. Troll you said a few times in there that I spent a bunch energy trying to sabotage things Day 0... prove it. Also, if I was a hider, I'd wait a few days to get some people to hide behind, claim, and leave behind both a good-looking corpse and some confirmed townies to work with. I think this is better hider play than claiming on the extremely unlikely chance that there happens to be a pair of them.

(thumb cramp)

What else. Oh DGB no the slow wagon means scum aren't cooperating cuz they don't want to lynch their own.

I think there was something else but I can't remember.

[Papa Zito]

I'll post some stuff tomorrow. Too tired to do it now.

[Papa Zito]

I'm going to respond to Troll separately since it turned out pretty huge.

You didn't dismiss it as chiding then; you seemed to genuinely be willing to answer it:

I was, and am. The paragraph you quoted from Troll didn't seem to have any questions to it. Maybe quote specifically what you want me to respond to?

Think it's likely the scum gave us one Hider? Or two? Or is it just based on your feelings on Troll and his perceived scumminess? Just out of curiosity.

Given the alternatives I think there might be one or two lurking about, sure.

What's your opinion about Troll's complete and total tunneling on Day 1? Town or scum move?

Its like a damn scum manifesto

+1

Zito, I give up. :p

Lawl.



I'm pretty sad to see the Hoopla wagon dissolve, given that she's done nothing (and I mean nothing) to earn that.

Hoopla (5) -- Papa Zito, Amished, mith, VasudeVa, Plumegranate
VasudeVa (4) -- populartajo, Herodotus, Seraphim, SpyreX
zoraster (5) -- Kmd4390, ooba, ekiM, DrippingGoofball, Elmo

This may be important later.

[Papa Zito]

So I asked Troll to back up the following assertion:

Even if you think that one of the interesting and important aspects of the game be boring you no should fight as hard against it as you did

... and he came up with:

If you want particular posts Troll will cite your isolation posts 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6. Post 8

So let's take a look at a couple of those.

Hello. I was prodded. I'm just waiting for this business to be over so we can start hunting the scumz.

I'm afraid I'm having a hard time seeing where I'm fighting anything here. Help me out Troll.

Guys, seriously, why can't we just pick something and play the game/lynch Hoopla? There's no perfect plan here and watching you all spin in circles trying to find one makes me dizzy.

Troll, who am I fighting here? Who is being hindered by this statement?

OMG

Anyway I reread Assassin and it doesn't seem so bad once I got past my knee-jerk to the name. I think I'd be fine with a Roleblocker/Assassin combo.

Please please please can we please end this soon please? Also please.

Basically the same as 2. Who am I fighting with here? Who is being hindered by this statement?

Always look on the briiiiight side of life, dee do, dee do dee do dee do.

I oppose any claiming strategy.

Good man.

Is Monty Python anti-town? How does agreeing with Amished here mean I'm fighting hard against something? Why haven't you attacked Amished in a similar manner?

We shouldn't claim anything. Claiming is useless. We should be picking some crap to give to the scum that won't matter because we're lynching them anyway. And we should do it before this DAY 0 drags to eternity.

The only thing I can come up with here is that you're arguing that anti-claim = anti-town? In other words, opposing your plan, despite admitting that it's fairly standard for me to oppose early claims, somehow makes me likely anti-town?

As for 8:

Okay it's pretty obvious that most of the crowd wants nothing to do with this claim business. No more claim talking.

It's also pretty obvious that people have accepted Roleblocker as one of the power options. Let's please hammer this and move on (dammit).

After that we can slug it out over Janitor vs. Assassin, and really at this point I don't care. But do the above stuff first so I can at least pretend we're making progress.

At the time I wrote that we were at:

Hider claim?
Yes - 2 (Plumegranate, mith)
No - 8 (ekiM, Amished, PZ, Rhinox, Vas, Hoopla, SpyreX, Kmd4390)

Massclaim?
Yes - 0 ()
No - 9 (ekiM, Plumegranate, Amished, PZ, Rhinox, Vas, Hoopla, SpyreX, Kmd4390)

At this response rate, can you really argue my first assertion? Secondly, the vote count stood at:

Janitor (5) -- SpyreX, Kmd4390, DrippingGoofball, Ellibereth, Papa Zito
Rolecop (1) -- ooba
Roleblocker (8) -- Kmd4390, Papa Zito, ooba, SpyreX, Rhinox, Amished, mith, VasudeVa
Assassin (4) -- VasudeVa, Rhinox, Amished, Slicey

With Roleblocker 3 votes ahead of the next option and no real opposition posted, can you really argue my second assertion?

Am I fighting with anyone in the third paragraph?

Also, I'd like to point out a few quotes:

I agree with Zito on almost everything.

We shouldn't claim anything. Claiming is useless. We should be picking some crap to give to the scum that won't matter because we're lynching them anyway. And we should do it before this DAY 0 drags to eternity.

This is the best post in this whole topic.

This is still going on. >.>
Can we just choose whatever and roll...

This needs to end.

No to hiders, No to massclaim. Yes to starting.

Are these people scum, Troll?

[Papa Zito]

PLUMEN

wat

Zor

We have two Zors.

Neutral leaning Town move, given that it's Troll. <etc>

? I was asking about tunneling, not hiders.

BTW, nobody's sitting back and asking themselves what scum motivation Troll may have had to do his little tango, which is really concerning to me - or they are and aren't coming up with answers somehow. The auto-town Troll thing is a bad idea imo tbh wtf bbq.

Incidentally I have other scum reads and Troll is on my back burner atm but he decided to make a big stink so.

Hoopla needs to die. Nowish.[/broken record]

dis rite here

Actually my gut is screaming that you're scum for some reason mith but I dunno why and also Hoopla. That said my subconscious has proven to be way better at this game than I am.


BTW HAY TAJO AM I SCUM THIS GAME?

[Papa Zito]

mith's taking charge. I like that.

PZ's not moving from the Hoopla wagon no unless shenanigans occur.

Papa Zito: what make troll scum?

Rhinox: Troll want Hider claims! PZ think Hider claims BAD. Troll then ignore all of game except PZ! Many other players scummier than PZ but Troll no pay attention to them! Troll tunneling anti-town!

PZ think these things make Troll possible scum! But Hoopla still better candidate! Vuvuzela also better candidate! For now PZ want Hoopla lynch!

[Papa Zito]

BTW HAY TAJO AM I SCUM THIS GAME?

I HAVE NO IDEA. ARE YOU VOTING ONE OF VASUDEVA, AMISHED OR MIKE? IF YES, TOWN.

...

...

Soooooooo I've been pushing Hoopla all day and despite that + multiple votecounts (Patrick is a good mod, see) you somehow don't know who I'm voting.

PLUS you have the distinction of being the only person on this site that can read me reliably and you have no idea?

HMM SAYS I

Mmmmm. why do you want a flip of Vas, since there is a possibility of janitoring??? We might get NO FLIP at all. Lynching for "information" is like, the worst possible reason in this game - at least until the scum have used up their lynch mop on a player.

DGB, darlin, you might want to go back and read what he's saying again.

BTW, I hope the scum team was super awesome and gave us 4 vigs because holy crap would that be fun. Although with SpyreX in this game and town I doubt they gave us even one.

KMD isn't going to get easier to read, he's lurking.

KMD is easier to read as time goes on yes. He'll be dealt with in the next couple days regardless.

[Papa Zito]

unvote

What was this for again?

[Papa Zito]

Um.

AT LEAST IT WAS BETTER THAN DGB'S GAMBIT

lol?

[Papa Zito]

This thread needs moar dead ooba.

VOTE: ooba

[Papa Zito]

Vote: ooba

Thanks Vas.

Since these kids seem to be unable to think for themselves, why don't you explain to them why we're voting ooba?

[Papa Zito]

Because we're Town and he's not?

*virtual fist pump!*

Also, that votehop was lazy as hell.

...

No.

Let's step through this. Look at the night results. What do they tell you?

[Papa Zito]

I....don't understand. Because he thinks tajo is the scum kill? Amished is on his earlier scum list and tajo is in his neutral list?

Argh.

We had two green kills last night. We know that we gave the scum roleblocker and janitor, and we know that there are only two factions in this game, so that means one of those kills was town. In other words, we have a vig.

Now, review ooba's Day 0 and tell me what you see.

[Papa Zito]

On the flipside:

Zito can you explain for me like Elli in babysteps because I'm missing it.

Yeah, I was trying to do this with Vas but it's not working out so well.

So we know from last night's flips that we have a vig.

If you review ooba's Day 0 you'll see that he advocated giving the scum both a rolecop and a roleblocker. Now knowing that we have a vig, it becomes more obvious that what ooba was trying to do. Naturally a rolecop (especially a

day

rolecop) is a great way to find that lurking pesky vig. But ooba's second choice is what's especially damning here.

Let's step back and review the potential town PRs:

- Weak Doctor
- Jailkeeper
- Tracker
- Hider
- Vigilante

What's interesting about this list is that the only one who makes a public, confirmable action is... the vig. What, then, would happen if the roleblocker correctly chose to block the vigilante? Why, the scum would then know that they had found the vig.

In other words, rolecop + roleblocker + nightkill gives the scum three chances per day/night cycle to find the hidden vigilante, making it virtually impossible for the vig to stay alive and safely hidden. And ooba was the one who advocated for this.

[Papa Zito]

80+ pages of game and almost a whole page about me after I replaced out? I'm flattered?

I'll take a guess at what he was doing Day0: Shouting at everyone to hurry up, advocating no claims of any kind, and trying to rush things along with craplogic and little apparent reasoning?

Sounds like the TownZito I know >_>

Oh.

Well done scumz.