Open 221: unclean - Day 3

[dRool89]

I feel that, in order to clarify Rule $#14, I should state that am not a real person. I am made of smoke and mirrors. Shattered mirrors.

Also,

@Mod: You have no rules about prodding. Can you prod everyone now? I'm about to fall asleep here.

Whats up with asking for a prod 2 hours in to the game starting?

Does anyone see this as odd?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

No, not really. Getting a prod on everyone at this point is a good idea since it lets everyone know the game has started and stimulates early game discussion.

[Shattered Viewpoint]

MOST INTERESTING USERNAME ORIGIN STORY YET.

Nuh-uh. Mine's

better.

I feel that, in order to clarify Rule $#14, I should state that am not a real person. I am made of smoke and mirrors. Shattered mirrors.

Also,

@Mod: You have no rules about prodding. Can you prod everyone now? I'm about to fall asleep here.

Whats up with asking for a prod 2 hours in to the game starting?

Does anyone see this as odd?

I was preemptively prodding everyone because we didn't get a mass PM saying the game had started. I just happened to have noticed because the thread had already started and I had already subscribed to it.

True fact: I was in a game once where the game thread wasn't created until after PM confirmations (and no mass PM); the thread got to 7 pages before I got prodded. So, you could say I'm gun shy about this.

[Crazy]

I feel that, in order to clarify Rule $#14, I should state that am not a real person. I am made of smoke and mirrors. Shattered mirrors.

Also,

@Mod: You have no rules about prodding. Can you prod everyone now? I'm about to fall asleep here.

Whats up with asking for a prod 2 hours in to the game starting?

Does anyone see this as odd?

Automatic

FoS

for using the word "odd."

People who use words such as "odd" or "interesting" are either too afraid to use the word "scummy," or can't think of a reason why something is scummy.

[dRool89]

I feel that, in order to clarify Rule $#14, I should state that am not a real person. I am made of smoke and mirrors. Shattered mirrors.

Also,

@Mod: You have no rules about prodding. Can you prod everyone now? I'm about to fall asleep here.

Whats up with asking for a prod 2 hours in to the game starting?

Does anyone see this as odd?

Automatic

FoS

for using the word "odd."

People who use words such as "odd" or "interesting" are either too afraid to use the word "scummy," or can't think of a reason why something is scummy.

Let us delve into this a bit.

I reread the first page yesternight, and it seemed like Shattered's posts on page 1 could be viewed as a preemptive attempt to appear active while not actually saying a whole lot (this idea could fairly be applied to others. It is page 1). Note that I did not change from my random vote on Smash and never issued anything official (FoS, etc).

He did ask for a prod (which he explained) and deliberately did not elaborate on the miller claim issue (which is now moot, but regardless...).

So that was my take on it: potentially odd, perhaps something worth examining.

Now on to the automatic FoS for using the word "odd" in place of "scummy" or other mafia colloquialisms.

I want you to elaborate on this quote and your ideas behind it:

People who use words such as "odd" or "interesting" are either too afraid to use the word "scummy," or can't think of a reason why something is scummy.

Why? Has anyone, to this point, done anything that you would label "scummy?"

If not, then why would the word "odd" be out of place here. I don't feel you could reasonably construe or interpret my question as suspicious. Perhaps in the same way I was reluctant to deem anything Shattered said as such.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I feel that, in order to clarify Rule $#14, I should state that am not a real person. I am made of smoke and mirrors. Shattered mirrors.

Also,

@Mod: You have no rules about prodding. Can you prod everyone now? I'm about to fall asleep here.

Whats up with asking for a prod 2 hours in to the game starting?

Does anyone see this as odd?

Automatic

FoS

for using the word "odd."

People who use words such as "odd" or "interesting" are either too afraid to use the word "scummy," or can't think of a reason why something is scummy.

This post is terrible. Some might even call it odd or interesting.

[Crazy]

Let us delve into this a bit.

I reread the first page yesternight, and it seemed like Shattered's posts on page 1 could be viewed as a preemptive attempt to appear active while not actually saying a whole lot (this idea could fairly be applied to others. It is page 1). Note that I did not change from my random vote on Smash and never issued anything official (FoS, etc).

He did ask for a prod (which he explained) and deliberately did not elaborate on the miller claim issue (which is now moot, but regardless...).

So that was my take on it: potentially odd, perhaps something worth examining.

Wooh, more weasel words! I see "could be viewed" and "potentially odd" as well as "perhaps!" It seems to appear that you could potentially have no confidence in anything that you could perhaps hypothetically type! How oddly interesting, or interestingly odd!

Seriously, your case seems well thought out, but you didn't explain any of that in Post 25. You just mentioned the prod request. Why is that?

Why? Has anyone, to this point, done anything that you would label "scummy?"

I believe using the word "odd" is scummy.

But from what you just said, you had a semi-solid case on SV that could easily describe him as "scummy", but instead you try to avoid any backlash by merely calling it "odd." But what's scummier is that you never posted your full case to begin with! To me, it's like you were stirring the pot but setting up someone else to take the fall.

If you think I'm misinterpreting you (which I might be), then please explain what you were trying to do by holding back on your full case.

My obsession with interesting/odd/etc. comes from a game I played a long time ago as scum (Open 87) where I got talked into a circle after using the word "interesting. Somehow I managed to escape that, but I had to lie out my ears with random definitions of "interesting" vs. "scummy." Since then, I've been careful to never use weasel words as scum, and I pay close attention to anyone that does.

[Alduskkel]

Crazy, you might (:P) be taking the whole weasel words thing too far. Though it's an interesting (ahahaha) point.

Flip side of the coin is that now scum won't use weasel words because they know it looks scummy to you. I guess if no one uses weasel words then it will force people to take stances, which is always good.

[dRool89]

Seriously, your case seems well thought out, but you didn't explain any of that in Post 25. You just mentioned the prod request. Why is that?

After we've had a few people examine prod request, it seems that it was likely (more weasel words) an innocent, "Hey mod, let's get started asap" rather than, "I'm scum and I'm looking to present myself as an active and constructive member of the game within the first two hours to establish a good foundation to hide under."

Agree or disagree?

I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on this.

I believe using the word "odd" is scummy.

I think you are applying this idea too universally. Particularly in the context we're dealing with. It is like you are saying that I need outright say that the prod request (coupled with the other short posts Shattered had on pg 1) was scummy. This isn't absolute. There is nothing on page one that I would call explicitly scummy. Period. By using less confident words I am expressing my thoughts on the issue more clearly.

I'll continue to use "weasel words" where I see fit. That said, I will take firm stances if I feel the situation calls for that.

But from what you just said, you had a semi-solid case on SV that could easily describe him as "scummy"

I disagree. I don't think I could justly describe anything he has said (so far) as "scummy."

I think Dizzy would agree:

No, not really. Getting a prod on everyone at this point is a good idea since it lets everyone know the game has started and stimulates early game discussion.

I still think that asking for a prod immediately after the game started could have been motivated by, "I'm scum and I'm looking to present myself as an active and constructive member of the game within the first two hours to establish a good foundation to hide under."

But he could just be pumped about playing a game of mafia, right?

It isn't concrete. It could be viewed as peculiar, however.

you try to avoid any backlash by merely calling it "odd." But what's scummier is that you never posted your full case to begin with! To me, it's like you were stirring the pot but setting up someone else to take the fall.

As I said above, I don't feel like this is a solid case against Shattered. It is hardly a "case," if you'd even call it one. Again, we're not even 3 pages into the game yet -- there isn't a whole lot for us to work with so speaking in absolutes seems a bit absurd.

Do you think that this is a "semi-solid, well thought out" case against Shattered? Does anyone?

If I felt that way I would have either FoS'd or voted. I'd expect you to do the same.

I didn't make any accusations in post 25 and asked what the town thought.

Does anyone see this as odd?

I didn't even insist it was odd to begin with! I did not inquire, "does anyone else see this as odd?

[dRool89]

I feel that, in order to clarify Rule $#14, I should state that am not a real person. I am made of smoke and mirrors. Shattered mirrors.

Also,

@Mod: You have no rules about prodding. Can you prod everyone now? I'm about to fall asleep here.

Whats up with asking for a prod 2 hours in to the game starting?

Does anyone see this as odd?

Automatic

FoS

for using the word "odd."

People who use words such as "odd" or "interesting" are either too afraid to use the word "scummy," or can't think of a reason why something is scummy.

This post is terrible. Some might even call it odd or interesting.

Elaborate. I might be inclined to agree.

[Migwelloni]

UNVOTE

joke vote

Just for the the unenlightened few, shooting an albatross is a golf term and in no way implies that I have a gun.

[Albatross]

Hi.

Crazy is my first town read.

[Albatross]

dRool, do you prefer to play scum or town?

[dRool89]

Hi.

Crazy is my first town read.

Hello.

Why? Elaborate.

dRool, do you prefer to play scum or town?

2. The more powerful the better. Night is no fun w/o special powers!

Scum. But it is more about power roles.

[Crazy]

After we've had a few people examine prod request, it seems that it was likely (more weasel words) an innocent, "Hey mod, let's get started asap" rather than, "I'm scum and I'm looking to present myself as an active and constructive member of the game within the first two hours to establish a good foundation to hide under."

Agree or disagree?

I agree, actually, but that doesn't answer my question. Why didn't you mention the rest of the stuff that you found "odd," mainly the not-commenting-on-the-miller-thing. I found that a lot "odder" than the prod request.

Do you think that this is a "semi-solid, well thought out" case against Shattered? Does anyone?

No, but it's a lot more well thought out than what you originally posted in #25.

I didn't even insist it was odd to begin with! I did not inquire, "does anyone else see this as odd?

So now you're saying that you

didn't

see it as odd? What's was your intention with Post #25, then? Just to stir up some random crap?

Hi.

Crazy is my first town read.

Thank you. I love to buddy up to other people when I'm scum; however, when I am town, I am immune to the charms of other people.

If you believe I am pro-town, then you must have read the thread. Did you find anything scummy, mildly scummy, or perhaps "odd?"



*****

Footnote in the Third Person

Something that is "odd" is not pro-town. It can only be neutral or scummy. Thus, anyone that uses the word "odd" is either...

a. Referring to something that they think is neutral, which is not a very useful thing to do.

b. Referring to something that they find scummy, but they are too scared to use the term "scummy."

So, if dRool really thought that SV's posts were neutral, then his post #25 was entirely useless.

The only other option is that dRool thought that SV's posts were mildly scummy, or something to examine further. In this case, use of the word "odd" is just being cowardly, meaning he's trying to avoid backlash from SV or being associated with any argument against SV.

Neither of these options are very appealing.

[Albatross]

Hi.

Crazy is my first town read.

Hello.

Why? Elaborate.

Gut, mostly. It might be his speaking style but his interactions with others seems to imply that he is actually trying to work with other people and read them, rather than just angling for a position:

Seriously, your case seems well thought out, but you didn't explain any of that in Post 25. You just mentioned the prod request. Why is that?

Here he asks a question about a discrepancy he sees, rather than immediately attacking you for it.

I wasn't completely sure, but I liked the read and his response to my expressing a town read was exactly what I was looking for from him if he was town, so I am slightly more sure now than I was an hour ago.

dRool, do you prefer to play scum or town?

2. The more powerful the better. Night is no fun w/o special powers!

Scum. But it is more about power roles.

I ask because I get the impression that you are excited about this game (you have already made multiple long posts and it is only the second page) and it got me wondering. That might be a bit of an exaggeration (Contrary to how it may sound, I have skimmed a little bit of the thread.), though, so I am not willing to act on that.

Actually, I should probably ask crazy the same question.

@Crazy: Which do you prefer to play as, Crazy, town or scum?

[Albatross]

Hi.

Crazy is my first town read.

Thank you. I love to buddy up to other people when I'm scum; however, when I am town, I am immune to the charms of other people.

If you believe I am pro-town, then you must have read the thread. Did you find anything scummy, mildly scummy, or perhaps "odd?"

Not really.

[Albatross]

*****

Footnote in the Third Person

Something that is "odd" is not pro-town. It can only be neutral or scummy. Thus, anyone that uses the word "odd" is either...

a. Referring to something that they think is neutral, which is not a very useful thing to do.

b. Referring to something that they find scummy, but they are too scared to use the term "scummy."

So, if dRool really thought that SV's posts were neutral, then his post #25 was entirely useless.

The only other option is that dRool thought that SV's posts were mildly scummy, or something to examine further. In this case, use of the word "odd" is just being cowardly, meaning he's trying to avoid backlash from SV or being associated with any argument against SV.

Neither of these options are very appealing.

One possible expanation that you are missing is that he saw something that he thinks might be significant but does not know how to interpret it himself and wanted to see if anyone else could help him out on it (Put simply: the question isn't rhetorical)

Though post 29 makes it sound like this wasn't entirely the case, so.

One motivation behind post 25 is that of scum who wanted to test the waters of the town before he sets into an attack, but hesitating before the attack could also be a tell for a non-confident townie (something I associate with newer players and I notice that dRool has about 100 posts even though he has an old join date) .

I'll think more on this.

Also, you may have notice that I use a lot of qualifiers in my speech. I'm sorry if this makes you tear your hair out, Crazy.

[Johnny Rotten]

Wow, I think we are making a whole big thing over nothing. Not suprising really, we are only on page 2 of Day 1.

Regarding the "mass prod 2 hours into the game" fiasco....I feel that he was just anxious to start playing the game. I've felt that way, just never posted it.

Regarding the "weasel words". That is (again, in my opinion) total bullshit. The ONLY way that you could use that as a case, is if you played multiple games with the same player. Then, if you notice a change in their speech patterns, THAT would be a scum tell.

Trying to deduce that from someone you never played with before, is not logical. We are all from different parts of the world, with different ways of speaking. Can't get too worked up over it, without more evidence.


Oh, and before I forget, I wanna

Unvote

my joke vote. Serious time has begun!!

[Crazy]

@Crazy: Which do you prefer to play as, Crazy, town or scum?

I like a variety. I'd probably enjoy being scum about 50% of the time, which is more than you'd get on average. I recall at one point I was scum for like 4 or 5 consecutive games and I got really frustrated with mafia in general, simply because I was feeling nervous all the time.

Also, you may have notice that I use a lot of qualifiers in my speech. I'm sorry if this makes you tear your hair out, Crazy.

Your posts don't bother me. It's not literally about the words, rather about the ideas conveyed.

Regarding the "weasel words". That is (again, in my opinion) total bullshit. The ONLY way that you could use that as a case, is if you played multiple games with the same player. Then, if you notice a change in their speech patterns, THAT would be a scum tell.

Trying to deduce that from someone you never played with before, is not logical. We are all from different parts of the world, with different ways of speaking. Can't get too worked up over it, without more evidence.

I haven't heard anything from dRool that suggests that he has a different definition of "odd" than I do. And regardless of where people live, we are all humans and have similar thought processes. I really don't understand your point at all.

I wasn't intending to make a "whole big thing" over this, btw, I completely understand it's nowhere close to a case to lynch anybody.

[Johnny Rotten]

Yes we are all humans, but dialects differ quite a bit from region to region.

One mans hoagie is another mans sub, hero, grinder, etc.....

You could wash that down with a soda, pop, fizz, etc.....

Get my point now?

Also, some people have "favorite" words that they tend to use over and over again in their speech. Perhaps 'odd' is one he uses a lot.

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

Migwelloni (1): Crazy
Johnny Rotten (1): smashbro_of_the_SSS
smashbro_of_the_SSS (1): Alduskkel
jmj3000 (1): MehPlusRawr
Crazy (1): Shattered Viewpoint

not voting: Albatross, Johnny Rotten, jmj3000, DizzyIzzyB13, Migwelloni, dRool89
alive: 11 majority: 6

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Footnote in the Third Person

Something that is "odd" is not pro-town. It can only be neutral or scummy. Thus, anyone that uses the word "odd" is either...

a. Referring to something that they think is neutral, which is not a very useful thing to do.

b. Referring to something that they find scummy, but they are too scared to use the term "scummy."

So, if dRool really thought that SV's posts were neutral, then his post #25 was entirely useless.

The only other option is that dRool thought that SV's posts were mildly scummy, or something to examine further. In this case, use of the word "odd" is just being cowardly, meaning he's trying to avoid backlash from SV or being associated with any argument against SV.

Neither of these options are very appealing.

No. I don't think you could be more wrong about this. There are plenty of odd or weird things that are said during a mafia game. The vast majority are not, in the end, scummy or evidence of scumminess. These things are worthy of note, because they could form part of a case against a player when put in a wider context, but alone are just... weird. I'm sure you've seen it plenty of times - people word something in an odd way, draw an unusual conclusion from evidence presented, take an unconventional analytical approach, etc. These things are odd. They are not necessarily scummy.

Frankly, this approach seems liek a weaselly way to attack someone whilst giving yourself some kind of policy excuse to fall back on later... which is more scummy than the behaviour you're accusing other people of.

[Johnny Rotten]

Well said Dizzy

[Crazy]

@Dizzy - What's the point of mentioning something if you don't find it at least mildly scummy?