Go Play in Traffic! (Game over!)

[Pittbunny]

I'm liable to believe the miller claim, and will hope that Seraphim continues to curb his enthusiasm where Starbuck had not.

What do you mean by this?

I think he got you and Sens mixed up. /shrug

In fact, so do I. My deepest apologies.
It's hard to read names when you're sneezing every five seconds.

Unvote

I'm curious for yabba's response.

[Pittbunny]

I'm liable to believe the miller claim, and will hope that Seraphim continues to curb his enthusiasm where Starbuck had not.

What do you mean by this?

I think he got you and Sens mixed up. /shrug

In fact, so do I. My deepest apologies.
It's hard to read names when you're sneezing every five seconds.

Unvote

I'm curious for yabba's response.

[kunkstar7]

I believe Ani's claim right now, I can't really see him gambitting like that early on.

Thought nothing of the "pidgeon" claim until Pittbunny's explanation for it, which i'm really not liking. No need to introduce unecessary confusion.

FOS: Pittbunny

For all intents and purposes Seraphim should be treated as if he was Sensfan, and held accountable for those actions.

@Fate: Is yabba simply scummy because of interaction with Seraphim? I don't see your reasoning on SeraphimScum particular strong, as I can only agree that one out of those three reasons is scummy, and thats just because the vote was more of a policy lynch.

[Toogeloo]

For all intents and purposes Seraphim should be treated as if he was Sensfan, and held accountable for those actions.

Generally I agree with this, but in this particular case I cannot.

I had the same immediate reaction that Sens did since I have seen a Scum claim Miller in first post very recently, Sens just took it and ran with it overzealously instead of tucking it into the back of his mind like he should have. Shortly after that, he threw a temper tantrum, acted like a bit of a jerk, and then got replaced.

It is far too early into the game to assume that Sens was scum and that his replacement is therefore scum, when the more likely answer is that Sens was an idiot and his replacement is now being held accountable.

I also don't see the argument against Yabba. It just appears to me that he was attempting to use reasoning, and Fate is just looking for reasons to tie people to Sens.

For the record, Fate, the whole, "Burn it with Fire," slogan never really goes over well for me, and I hope others. Maybe you should come up with better reasoning mate instead of the, "Kill it now," philosophy. Being more convincing is better play than being more demanding in my opinion.


I would urge people to be more cautious of those who jumped on the Sens lynch very easily. I think he got up to -2 pretty fast, so I could almost guarantee that someone(s) on that vote train is scum, and that's where I am starting my search.

[Leafsnail]

Firstly:

Vote: Yabbaguy

Vote: Yabbaguy

Vote: Yabbaguy

Vote: Yabbaguy

Vote: Yabbaguy

Ok, now that's out of the way:

@Leafsnail-77: I'm not stating my suspicion. If you want to go cry about it to the rest of the Town and wagon me over it, be my guest. The case isn't developed enough, and there is much more to be gained by waiting.

It crumbles the instant I mention it or even who.

Right...

I'm choking on all the words you're putting in my mouth here.

It's not a matter of fearing having the case dismissed at all.

This is pretty close to a direct contradtion. But wait, it's not an exact contradiction, is it? If only there were somewhere you very directly contradicted that statement...

The case is too weak right now to call it and put money on it,

as it would be dismissed as rubbish

.

I would like you to reconcile the following statements:
"it would be dismissed as rubbish"
"It's not a matter of fearing having the case dismissed at all."

Similarly, I would like you to say exactly where I put words in your mouth. It looks like a very lazy way of batting away an accusation. I suppose you could be referring to

Even if your case is weak, you can at least put it out there... noone can be fully sure of a suspicion at this point.

But this is supported directly in your quote by

The case is too weak right now to call it and put money on it, as it would be dismissed as rubbish.

If you really can't tell me who you're suspicious of now (and, if you reveal it later and can come up with no adequate reason why you hid it, you are scum) then how long do you plan on keeping it secret, and why?

I also don't see the argument against Yabba. It just appears to me that he was attempting to use reasoning, and Fate is just looking for reasons to tie people to Sens.

Give me an example of Yabba being attacked for "attempting to use reasoning".

[Toogeloo]

Just a quick review over the Sens train, the following people came off somewhat scummy to me based solely on how they decided to place their votes:

Pittbunny
Chronopie
Lowell

All of them seemed to kind of just tack onto the train with almost little reasoning behind it.


I am still a relative newbie on the site, so I don't know anyone except Pittbunny, and I actually only played with him once for a short time since he replaced into a game in the middle of a day phase and was subsequentally night killed the following night.


Pittbunny has tried to cause chaos, and his votes and commentary seem tacked on to the crowd, and not more or less his own personal thoughts. At least they do to me.

Chronopie and Lowell are largely quiet. I don't think any real content has been posted from them at all, or at least nothing I can remember after 5 pages. Lowell is a bit more guilty of this than Chrono for sure, as I think he has only posted twice, and neither was really inspiring confidence in me towards his townhood.

[Riceballtail]

Same goes for you if Sens flips scum and Yabba is town, RBT.

Personally more interested in someone who is making universally accepted scumtells over someone who's doing controversial ones.

[Toogeloo]

I also don't see the argument against Yabba. It just appears to me that he was attempting to use reasoning, and Fate is just looking for reasons to tie people to Sens.

Give me an example of Yabba being attacked for "attempting to use reasoning".

Yabba isn't being attacked for attempting to use reasoning, he is being attacked because Fate thinks he is attempting to derail the train on Seraphim(Sens).

First off, Yabba doesn't even mention people needing to get off the train, he questions Fate for why he is even on the train. Fate of course started the train, but I think that what Yabba was getting at is he wants to know why Fate is on the train. Fate only jumps on because he says Policy Lynching is anti-town. He never backs up his convictions in any other way, so it could be assumed that he is still interested in lynching Seraphim(Sens) for wanting to policy lynch a claimed Miller. Seraphim has backed off of animorph, stating that the Miller situation will resolve itself natuarally, but Fate continues to want to lynch him.

I believe Yabba wanted to know why this continues to be the case, at least that is how I interpreted Yabba's response. Fate is in tunnel mode, and that is anti-town as well, and truly hasn't presented an argument against Seraphim other than, "Sens was trying to Policy lynch a Miller, and you are Sens."

[danakillsu]

Sorry if me posting here is a problem, but I wanted to apologize for getting replaced. I forgot I was in this game...

Have a good game, everyone.

[Pittbunny]

Just a quick review over the Sens train, the following people came off somewhat scummy to me based solely on how they decided to place their votes:

Pittbunny

Pittbunny has tried to cause chaos, and his votes and commentary seem tacked on to the crowd, and not more or less his own personal thoughts. At least they do to me.

Don't I always.


My personal thoughts at this moment sum up to "Wait, people thought I was ever serious?". I don't see what the issue with 'chaos' is in a game. We're likely days away from solid lynch target, which is plenty of time for people to properly sort out things I started days back. I like chaos in a mafia game. It provides a element which is initially stupid, usually stupid, and yet sometimes provides interesting nuggets of information that you wouldn't easily glean from back-and-forth debate.

For example, the latest wagon magically sprung up from what started off as chaos. I (attempted, but failed) to throw a vote on to the wagon to apply more pressure, and got sidetracked by Fate's post regarding Yabba. Now I'm waiting for more things to come to light before I put down my vote again. Until Yabba posts I'm liable to believe that he simply chose the wrong words; with another post, we'll see if he's trying to derail or was misinformed or otherwise.

Question-Seraphim: What is your stance on Lowell? I'm reading through his posts, but am apparently missing what you see.

[yabbaguy]

@Fate-95 (Cc- Riceballtail): It is possible to start a wagon and then lazily ride the coattails of it because you have stated one reason that is underdeveloped. Granted, this was waaaay back in the RVS, but surely your case is a bit more developed now. All I wanted to know was your reasoning for being on board still. Simple question.

@Leafsnail: First off, you have to Unvote, Vote yabbaguy for it to count. That's why mod is "forgetting" your vote. Have you missed the two instances where StrangerCoug has told you your vote isn't counting?

The words being put in my mouth are the following:

It looks a lot more like you're just trying to avoid attention or scrutiny from the person you'd vote.

Which is not at all true. This is a big sign of tunnelvisioning, because you are manipulating everything I say to the scummiest extent possible. I don't use buzzwords for propaganda's sake (which is scummy indeed if you're saying them baselessly), I say them because I mean them. You're tunnelvisioning.

Yes, I misspoke, it

was

a matter of having the case dismissed, so that line shouldn't have been in there. Since you're biting my ass every other second though, which is not appreciated, I'll consider my hand forced and throw this out there.

I was about to vote JacobSavage for active lurking up to this point. I wanted to observe him a little longer and see if he was going to keep the trend up. I hid this because I wanted him to continue playing as candidly as he has been, and seeing his normal behavior. By now revealing this information, he is probably going to, town or scum, step up his gameplay. I would expect a town player in his position to eventually become more invested in the game whilst a scum player would continue to be worthless. Now I can no longer gauge this tell.

However, the fact that Riceballtail has just hopped on a wagon without even offering any reasoning of his own is fascinating. Yes, it's my wagon, but it's ridiculously uncalled for wagon hopping no matter how you slice it.

Rice, what are your problems with me? You've voted me over a factual inaccuracy, it seems, and it wasn't even inaccurate as stated above.

Vote: Riceballtail

[JacobSavage]

I was about to vote JacobSavage for active lurking up to this point. I wanted to observe him a little longer and see if he was going to keep the trend up. I hid this because I wanted him to continue playing as candidly as he has been, and seeing his normal behavior. By now revealing this information, he is probably going to, town or scum, step up his gameplay. I would expect a town player in his position to eventually become more invested in the game whilst a scum player would continue to be worthless. Now I can no longer gauge this tell.

No, I normally active lurk for the first day or so, then become more active later

[Chronopie]

Are we discussing playstyle now?

I tend to have brief periods of activity over the period of 1-2 rl days, then sit back and watch for a few, picking up on new leads, with only minimal posting. Rinse and repeat. I also tend to Iso people and place policy votes to encourage posting.

--

Part of the problem with Sensfan was his calling the miller claim bullshit, and then proceeding to shamelessly push for ani's lynch w/o any further attempts to scumhunt. additionally 'snarky' behaviour, and an unprovoked insult.

--

Vote: Riceball

three posts in five pages. RVS, Following Fate w/ no original reasoning, fluff.

[Seraphim]

Policy lynches give little to no information, as they aren't done based off scumhunting. It is a scum motivation to go with a policy lynch.

Not always. I have yet to see a single game where an actual policy lynch has gone down. It happens a lot less than people tend to think, at least in my experience.

A policy lynch is a lynch based on policy, or some sort of singular criteria that is seperate of alignment, such as playstyle, action, or activity levels that the site meta has dictated.

For example, in almost all cases, town lynch players that have a claimed cop claiming guilty on them. That's a policy lynch...it's not based on play, it's based on the claim.

I would aruge that town have just as much motivation as scum to policy lynch...scum because they want an easy lynch, town because they believe that the site meta for the situation is correct. In terms of millers, lynching all claimed millers prevent the WIFOM of having them alive. There's a pro-town motivation there.

Pay attention, here. Watch this.

Policy lynches are anti-town, etc.

Based on one single action, Fate calls for a lynch. This is Fate calling for a policy lynch which he later says:

It is a scum motivation to go with a policy lynch.

So, by your own logic, you are scum or at least commiting a scummy action. You are trying a quick policy lynch.

Hell, even scum like quicklynches of their buddy (i.e. guilty claims) in some cases.

Yeah, it's called bussing. It's good scum play and I don't see where that applies to me.

---

The case on Yabba is weak...town can keep a few cards close to the chest this early in the game. Not to mention linking him to me is stupid...Fate's either/or logic is anti-town best, scummy at worst.

---

I am voting for Lowell because he FoSed a player based on this:

That combined with the strange doublepost makes shattered look like someone who cares about his rate of activity more than catching up on content

The doublepost was caused by server error. He appears to be attacking a player based on nothing and a "meaningless sideshow".

Lowell's two posts are terrible IMO.

[Toogeloo]

Part of the problem with Sensfan was his calling the miller claim bullshit, and then proceeding to shamelessly push for ani's lynch w/o any further attempts to scumhunt. additionally 'snarky' behaviour, and an unprovoked insult.

Is this something you would expect scum or idiot town to do, more specifically, a player like Sens?

Let's also consider for a second that this happened within the first 5 posts of the game, and Seraph replaced in by page two because of Sens' tantrum. It just doesn't seem like a scum tactic to me.


However, let's also break it down this way. The argument on him is WIFOMable for sure, but the secondary benefits are particularly useful.

Based on the fact that Sens reached -2 on Day 1, if Sens was idiot town, then he is an easy target that surely a scum or two would have latched onto to get a free pass through Day 1. If Sens was scum, his play would obviously be considered an easy player to bus by his team to make them look better.

Either way, since his alignment can be WIFOMed, and Seraphim

should

be considered a separate entity, I think that there is just as good a probability of finding scum attached to the lynch train since those characteristics have not changed.


I think a change of direction is necessary at the moment, and I would like some insightful commentary from Lowell. He still has his vote on Seraph(Sens), and I want him to better explain in his own words why he thinks his vote should still be there. I also consider it practically hypocritical that Lowell would FoS shattered for trying to look active by having a quad-post when it was fairly evident that everyone was having problems,

and

Lowell himself hasn't been the embodiment of content himself either with what he has had being a stretch in reasoning at the absolute most.

Unvote
Vote: Lowell

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE COUNT

Lowell (1): Seraphim, Toogeloo
Toogeloo (1): Twomz
Riceballtail (2): yabbaguy, Chronopie
yabbaguy (1): Ricebaltail
Seraphim (5): Fate, animorpherv1, Starbuck, Leafsnail, Lowell
Not voting (5): kunkstar7, FakeGod, JacobSavage, Shattered Viewpoint, Pittbunny

With

16

players alive, it takes

9

players to lynch.

Leafsnail

and Chronopie

's votes do not count as they need to unvote first.

[Leafsnail]

@Leafsnail: First off, you have to Unvote, Vote yabbaguy for it to count. That's why mod is "forgetting" your vote. Have you missed the two instances where StrangerCoug has told you your vote isn't counting?

I did unvote... right at the start of the post in which I voted for you. Whatever. It should count now.

Unvote: Seraphim. Vote: Yabbaguy.

Which is not at all true.

But how is it possibly putting words into your mouth? I am saying what your actions look like to me. Indeed, your pointless over defence of this makes me think it even more.

This is a big sign of tunnelvisioning, because you are manipulating everything I say to the scummiest extent possible. I don't use buzzwords for propaganda's sake (which is scummy indeed if you're saying them baselessly), I say them because I mean them. You're tunnelvisioning.

You've shown no evidence of me manipulating ANYTHING. All you quoted was me saying what your actions looked like to me. All this stuff you've drawn from it is complete bullcrap... not to mention the horribly scummy way you've phrased it.

Yes, I misspoke, it was a matter of having the case dismissed, so that line shouldn't have been in there. Since you're biting my ass every other second though, which is not appreciated, I'll consider my hand forced and throw this out there.

So you mispoke and then accused me of misrepping for not magically knowing you had done so? Again, bullshit.

I was about to vote JacobSavage for active lurking up to this point. I wanted to observe him a little longer and see if he was going to keep the trend up. I hid this because I wanted him to continue playing as candidly as he has been, and seeing his normal behavior. By now revealing this information, he is probably going to, town or scum, step up his gameplay. I would expect a town player in his position to eventually become more invested in the game whilst a scum player would continue to be worthless. Now I can no longer gauge this tell.

You were so worked up about someone active lurking on page 3? Really?

And isn't the reaction to an accusation of active lurking the important part of a read?

[Twomz]

Unvote, vote: Lowell

I like Toogeloo's logic in this case. But, from what I understand, Pitt's being Pitt and Chrono has stepped up. I'd like to see more posting from Lowell as well.

[animorpherv1]

unvote

Serpahim is much better than Sens, IMO. Also, from experience, haven't people also called a RBT D1 lynch policy as well?

[yabbaguy]

But how is it possibly putting words into your mouth? I am saying what your actions look like to me. Indeed, your pointless over defence of this makes me think it even more.

leafsnail, tunnelvisioning IS putting words in my mouth, I claim, since by manipulating things to the scummiest extent, you are manipulating words to the scummiest extent. I do have pro-town reasons for doing things.

-Your initial reason for voting me was that I was being too non-transparent for your liking.
-I gave you a reason, I said that I wanted to ensure that the consistency of the tell proved true. (And it does... in the way I loathe the most. I'll find ways to get Jacob to answer questions, though.)
-You reply instead with. "I think it's [scummy interpretation]" instead, without any reason for why my explanation is any less plausible.
-You are completely blotting out my explanations. I am innocent until proven guilty, in other words, why am I lying, or why is your explanation more probable?
-Tunnelvisioning.

Overdefensiveness, I can't explain myself against. I don't know what I'm being accused of.

---

You've shown no evidence of me manipulating ANYTHING. All you quoted was me saying what your actions looked like to me. All this stuff you've drawn from it is complete bullcrap... not to mention the horribly scummy way you've phrased it.

Now I claim I have, if it wasn't clear before. Also, I can't defend myself against "horribly scummy phrasings" if I don't know what you're mentioning.

So you mispoke and then accused me of misrepping for not magically knowing you had done so? Again, bullshit.

Huh? You biting my ass stems from hounding me over "c'mon, just tell us the suspicion, it won't do a thing, c'mon." Different things.

You were so worked up about someone active lurking on page 3? Really?

I do not get emotionally excited if I can help it. It is a mistake if I do.

The way you wrote that post tells me a lot, leafsnail. I have the hunch that you are getting a bit too emotionally invested in ratting me out. Unlike your last post, which had at least structured (albeit inaccurate) points about what you were quoting, this time you've resorted to baseless claims that mean nothing to me, and therefore I cannot defend.

Serpahim is much better than Sens, IMO. Also, from experience, haven't people also called a RBT D1 lynch policy as well?

Are you implying Riceballtail has a generally anti-town meta?

[Chronopie]

@mod:

Unvote

I'm going to see how Seraphim plays this.

<snip>

Vote: Riceball

three posts in five pages. RVS, Following Fate w/ no original reasoning, fluff.

Yes I did.

--

I find Yabba more town than Leafsnail atm.

[Chronopie]

@mod:

Unvote

I'm going to see how Seraphim plays this.

<snip>

Vote: Riceball

three posts in five pages. RVS, Following Fate w/ no original reasoning, fluff.

Fix'd, quote fail.

[StrangerCoug]

@mod:

Unvote

I'm going to see how Seraphim plays this.

<snip>

Vote: Riceball

three posts in five pages. RVS, Following Fate w/ no original reasoning, fluff.

Yes I did.

Damn it, when did I start getting sloppy?

Ah, well. Fixed.

[yabbaguy]

Damn it, when did I start getting sloppy?

Ah, well. Fixed.

Fate (1): Toogeloo, Pittbunny

[Pittbunny]

Unvote, vote: Lowell

I like Toogeloo's logic in this case. But, from what I understand, Pitt's being Pitt and Chrono has stepped up. I'd like to see more posting from Lowell as well.

I'd casually note that I try to utilize different mindsets/methodologies across different games, so you'd do good not to compare my play in other games we share to this one.

Agreement on the Lowell case, but I don't think a vote is necessarily in order from me. Small pressure usually works just as well as large pressure.