Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[popsofctown]

Day 1 Vote Count

ace5993 ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 0 )
elvis_knits ( 1 ) farside22
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 2 ) gayle evilsnail
fishythefish ( 2 ) popsofctown flareonage
flareonage ( 1 ) fishythefish
gayle ( 0 )
infinis ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
Raskol ( 0 )
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 9 ) ace5993 DrippingGoofball elvis_knits infinis mykonian ojanen plum Raskol Rhinox
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

@Universe 1(assuming someone over there wants to quote this so everyone can see it): Gayle's attempt to extend the rvs is scummy as hell. You should lynch her for it.

Lol. On it.

[Fishythefish]

To the Other Universe

It seems you are thinking of lynching quickly in order to teleport scummy people over here.

Make no mistake: we are not idiots..

On night actions, there is no sensible agreement we can come to - at some point it will be unilaterally broken. But we can and do see your day conversations. Any move to systematically lynch quicker than us will inevitably lead to both universes lynching quicker, and therefore worse. You will not just screw us over, you will screw yourselves over. If you end up one night ahead of us, will you have gained as much as if you spent twice the time over your days?

And yeah,

unvote, vote: Gayle

. For reasons, see the excellent post 92.

[farside22]

For townies it is.

Damn you for ruining my set up!

Gayle isn't making sense about RVS in any way shape for form but I was willing to see how far she goes to hang herself on the issue.

unvote:
vote: Gayle

The whole RVS over stradegy makes no sense for town.

[popsofctown]

Lovin the mutually assured destruction setup here fishy. How many times will game theory apply in this game? ^_^

unvote, vote:Gayle

[popsofctown]

Proposal for Uni2: Synchronized hammers for maximum fairness. Accept?

[Raskol]

On night actions, there is no sensible agreement we can come to - at some point it will be unilaterally broken.

I don't think we should expect cooperative agreements to be broken at all. That might be true if we were both static, monolithic organizations, but we aren't. We're a collection of individuals that may or may not remain on the side of the dimensional rift we're currently on.

Any townie teleporter that uses their actions to fuck over the other universe faces the very real possibility that they will be pulled over to the universe they just fucked over and have to live in their own mess. It seems that our best bet as individuals is to make sure that both towns do really well.

So for both towns, I think, self-interest will help us reach a cooperative solution, not hinder us. Whatever strategy we end up using, we should make sure it ends up being a net gain for both towns as a whole.

Teleporting scummy players to the other universe is a zero sum game, imo, that we should not be playing. A plan like Kairyuu's makes sense, I think, in that it gives both towns a slight advantage.

[Fishythefish]

Proposal for Uni2: Synchronized hammers for maximum fairness. Accept?

I support this proposal in theory for day 1 (although in practise I can't see how it will work?).

[Gayle]

There is really nothing I can say to defend myself from "Finding the strategy discussion irritating is scummy". I maintain that it is pointless to continue the strategy discussion.

[popsofctown]

What is Kairyuu's plan?

Teleporting seems good to me. The teleported player is guaranteed not to be a teleporter and thus is extra delicious for lynching.



Fishy it works fine. When someone is at L-1 in our universe, a final player posts that he's willing to hammer. He then waits for a player in the other universe to to be ready to hammer their lynch, and then they both hammer the next time they can get to a computer.

[Raskol]

There is really nothing I can say to defend myself from "Finding the strategy discussion irritating is scummy". I maintain that it is pointless to continue the strategy discussion.

You would prefer maybe random voting? Jokes about avatars?

Strategy discussion is necessary because what strategy we follow later, if any, will determine how likely it is that we'll reach our win conditions. For that reason, it's kinda important, you know?

In any case, you don't seem to be trying very hard to bring up something different to talk about.

[Fishythefish]

On night actions, there is no sensible agreement we can come to - at some point it will be unilaterally broken.

I don't think we should expect cooperative agreements to be broken at all. That might be true if we were both static, monolithic organizations, but we aren't. We're a collection of individuals that may or may not remain on the side of the dimensional rift we're currently on.

Any townie teleporter that uses their actions to fuck over the other universe faces the very real possibility that they will be pulled over to the universe they just fucked over and have to live in their own mess. It seems that our best bet as individuals is to make sure that both towns do really well.

So for both towns, I think, self-interest will help us reach a cooperative solution, not hinder us. Whatever strategy we end up using, we should make sure it ends up being a net gain for both towns as a whole.

Teleporting scummy players to the other universe is a zero sum game, imo, that we should not be playing. A plan like Kairyuu's makes sense, I think, in that it gives both towns a slight advantage.

For now, the odds are heavily (~75%, I'd guess) in favour of me dying/living in this universe (particulary as I don't intend to be teleported for being scummy).

A town teleporter that gets pulled

will be confirmed innocent from then on, wherever they are

. Sure, they might get pulled back (though it's unlikely). But they are going to have a definite advantage.

If both towns do well, hurrah. But all I'm interested in is winning. And if that means going to the other universe, and I can do that, then I'm gone.

If we were in a situation where the best tactic was cooperation with the other universe, then we could do that. But have you actually read and understood Kai's strategy and mine? In the case that our universe is a good place to be, mine is superior (we get a clear for a day). In the opposite case, no teleporter in their right mind is going to claim to come over here.

@pops: as I understand, time of hammer is what matters. In the current post-submitting climate, is anyone going to be able to coordinate this to the minute?

@mod:

What are the conditions for the two towns to have gone into night at the same town?

[Fishythefish]

EBWOP: the last word of the post should be "time".

[Flareonage]

Strategy discussion is necessary because what strategy we follow later, if any, will determine how likely it is that we'll reach our win conditions. For that reason, it's kinda important, you know?

Yeah but scum is influencing all that strategy talk and they're gonna push for the town to do what they want. I think the teleporter should just keep to themselves and do whatever they want with their action

[Ojanen]

I have been distracted with stuff and haven't really gotten my head around to this game yet. But prisoner's dilemma seems about right. We dump scummy players there and get scummy players back (/pull pro-town), both towns would have the incentive to do this since both towns seem to have incentive for betrayal in case of agreed ceasefire.
I liked Kai's plan at first read but need to think through a little on benefits of claiming for the teleporters themselves and vanillas fakeclaiming. Little drunk currently, don't trust my head right now.

@mod:

can a teleporter target themselves?

[zorastermod]

@mod: What are the conditions for the two towns to have gone into night at the same town?

I presume you mean at the same time. In order for two towns to enter night at the same time, they must end the day (either by deadline, hammer, or potentially mafia teleportation causing lynch) at the precise minute as recorded by Mafiascum.

In this event, where there are conflicting actions in a simultaneous night, it will be decided by order of action (see rules) first, and coin flip (random.org) second.

For example, assume T1 = town 1 teleporter, T2= town 2 teleporter , V1= vanilla in town 1, etc.

If at a simultaneous night, T1 pulls T2 and T2 pulls T1 and no other action gets in the way (e.g. mafia kill), a coin will be flipped to see whether T1 pulls first or T2 pulls first. If T1 pulls first, T2 becomes a vanilla townie and enters town 1 without performing that action.

Or... if T1 targets V1 to teleport, T2 pulls T1. Whether T1 manages to teleport V1 will depend on a coin flip between the two to see who goes first.

BUT if T1 targets V1 and Mafia A Teleporter targets T1, then V1 is teleported and THEN T1 is teleported (due to the order of actions).

Let me know if this needs to be elaborated further.

@mod: can a teleporter target themselves?

No.

[Gayle]

You would prefer maybe random voting? Jokes about avatars?

Random voting would have at least lead somewhere.

Strategy discussion is necessary because what strategy we follow later, if any, will determine how likely it is that we'll reach our win conditions. For that reason, it's kinda important, you know?

But the strategies have

already been laid out

. What good is it to keep discussing them? It doesn't matter what

town

decides. All that matters is what the

teleporter

decides.

In any case, you don't seem to be trying very hard to bring up something different to talk about.

This is true. I used to whine about RVS too, until people started telling me to come up with an alternative. I honestly have no idea what else to do, which is why I said I was going to shut up and wait for the strategy discussion to go somewhere.

[Fishythefish]

@mod: What are the conditions for the two towns to have gone into night at the same town?

I presume you mean at the same time. In order for two towns to enter night at the same time, they must end the day (either by deadline, hammer, or potentially mafia teleportation causing lynch) at the precise minute as recorded by Mafiascum.

In this event, where there are conflicting actions in a simultaneous night, it will be decided by order of action (see rules) first, and coin flip (random.org) second.

Thank you, that answers the question I intended to ask.

[Raskol]

I don't think you get what

I'm

saying, fish. I'm saying that, from the very beginning, it's in everyone's interests to make sure that both universes are really good places to be.

Scummy players aren't the only ones that have to worry about getting teleported over to the other side. Townie players also have to worry about getting pulled over to the other side. Let's say the other universe's teleporter decides you're really town---they're going to pull you over, and if our universe has been fucking their universe over, that's going to be a bad thing for you. The only way that you can really avoid having a chance of being teleported in the "free for all" situation is if you're really inconspicuous---and that hurts your chances of winning regardless of what universe you end up in.

No matter who you are or how you play, you can't possibly know that you will remain here. So the best bet for every townie is to try and make sure that both universes are doing the best they can. And a game where we all try to fuck over the other town by sending them our garbage is not the way to do that. It ends up helping neither town---we screw them, they screw us, we both end up getting screwed. Zero sum game, no winners.

So, you see, I don't like seeing people talking about screwing Universe Two, because for all I know I'm going to end up there (and the same is true for anyone in the game who's town). I don't like seeing people talking openly about fucking up my chances of winning.

A town teleporter that gets pulled will be confirmed innocent from then on, wherever they are. Sure, they might get pulled back (though it's unlikely). But they are going to have a definite advantage.

This is exactly why Kairyuu's plan is good,

thanks for pointing it out

. Only with his plan we give that advantage to both towns multiple times over the course of the game.

___________________________________________________________________________________


Gayle---Maybe I'm naive, but I would at least hope that discussion of the benefits (or lack thereof) of each strategy would have some chance of influencing 'what teleporter decides'.

[zorastermod]

By the way, I just wanted to make sure everyone realized I had been adding any clarifying remarks I make in one game into a section called "Corrections and Clarifications" in the rules section of both games. For the most part these were all my intentions that I did not necessarily articulate well to begin with. Shame on me.

[Raskol]

One thing though Fishy, I'm not really arguing against your plan, just arguing against the idea that we shouldn't try and form one that helps both towns.

[Fishythefish]

No matter who you are or how you play, you can't possibly know that you will remain here. So the best bet for every townie is to try and make sure that both universes are doing the best they can. And a game where we all try to fuck over the other town by sending them our garbage is not the way to do that. It ends up helping neither town---we screw them, they screw us, we both end up getting screwed. Zero sum game, no winners.

I don't think we need disagree.

The strategy I propose helps our town if we implement it unilaterally. It also helps both towns if we both implement it. If you like, it's the total opposite of the Prisoner's Dilemma - the rational choice for both towns also benefits both of us.

Apart from direct responses to questions, this is the last post I'm going to make about the mechanics of this game for a long time, or I'll get hooked on them, and they aren't the way to win. I strongly advise the town teleporter to understand and follow the strategy in post 62.

Incidentally, Kai just agreed that my strategy is better than his.

[popsofctown]

which is why I said I was going to shut up and wait for the strategy discussion to go somewhere.

Declaration of intent to active lurk in response to suspicion! Such traditional emo ousted scum play! If you deliver on that promise Gayle, you might even curry some votes from across the universe.

(no, if anyone is confused, she can't actually get voted from them)

[Raskol]

I don't think we need to disagree either. You're right that I hadn't read both plans carefully, and I was responding specifically to the part of your post that I quoted.

I've seen a lot of people thinking we're in a prisoner's dilemma, and I just wanted to point out that we aren't. This is more like a prisoner's dilemma

where you're not sure which prisoner you are

. In that case our best option is to choose the outcome that has the highest average utility for both parties.

The part of your post that I quoted seemed to be confirming that idea, and I wanted to make sure that people knew that our goal is to help both towns as much as possible, not to fuck one universe over at the expense of another (unless the gain one universe gets is much greater than the loss the other takes).

If your plan ends up being the best for both universes then I'd be happy to use it. My concern has been to make sure people know what our goal is; I'm less concerned with the implementation, so long as it gets done what need to be.

[Raskol]

ebwop: seemed to be confirming that idea, that idea being that we're in a situation where the best possible thing for you to do is to fuck the other one over while hoping they try to cooperate. (which is

not

the position we're in)

[Fishythefish]

Argh. The mod's clarification 1 outlaws my strategy, at least in terms of distributions of teleports and pulls.

@mod

It also means that, after the first two choices, the town teleporter will never have any choice about teleporting or pulling.
I'll think about possible modifications.