Not reading your role PM

[Yosarian2]

I dunno, I think this is too gross of an oversimplification to take it seriously... It's still more worth it in the long run to look like a townsperson on day one, regardless of who's who. Other than "I might bus my scumbuddy or defend him," how does your strategy differ whether or not you've read your role regardless?

In order to properly bus a scumbuddy and do it in such a way so you won't be accused of bussing, it actually helps to know that he is your scumbuddy.

Likewise, if you know who the scum are and what positions they have staked out, it's much easier to figure out how to manipulate the town in order to reduce the chances of any member of your scumteam ever being lynched, in a way that won't make you look bad.

Plus, especally in mini games, I really think the most of the time the easiest and best way for scum to win is to do a "1-2-3 mislynch" and win on day 3 with the whole scum team intact. It's just easier to control the situation then then to try to set up a favorable 3 player endgame. But in order to do that reliably, you have to start manipulating the town and the game right from the start of day 1.

It is. Think of it this way...

When I act like a townsperson day one, I've formulated my suspicions and determined a specific set of people who have acted like townies and scum. With that determined, I now have an idea of who I plan to attack in future days and who I plan on defending, which is where most of the competitive advantage comes from.

Why can't you do that as scum?

In fact, if you do that as scum, and do it knowing who the scum actually are, your results will generally be better.

Granted it might be a little harder to do that as scum without making a mistake, but it's quite doable.

[ortolan]

My opinion on this issue is that while it may be a good tactic in an ideal world- to hide your own psychological tells; in reality, as Yos says, it's way easier to win townpoints if you already know what alignment everyone is (if you're scum), rather than faking being town. This is why in my completed games people usually find me way more scummy when I'm town than when I'm actually scum.

[SensFan]

If John hasn't read his Role PM, he's not playing any more than Bob is, and Bob didn't sign up for the game.

[Sanjay]

If people always think you are scummy when you are scum and always think you are town when you are town, reading your PM hurts you when you are scum. But is anyone really like this?

[Ether]

But is anyone really like this?

Yo.

Having said that, I'm one of those "spirit of the game" types. As a mod, I see this as a good reason to demand summaries; I don't see how they're clunky at all. (I also don't see how Quagmire would be getting that advantage from natural bussing he talks, about if he's so high-key with his tendencies. He's probably using it at least as much to avoid accountability on Day 1. People who don't read their role PM and don't

tell

people that they didn't read their role PM would be a bigger problem.)

[Pomegranate]

If people always think you are scummy when you are scum and always think you are town when you are town, reading your PM hurts you when you are scum. But is anyone really like this?

I think there are a few people like this, but I can't think of them ATM... but I think they read their Role PMs anyway.

[chamber]

Anyone else getting the feeling that Quag is doing an excellent job at trolling us?

[Sanjay]

Anyone else getting the feeling that Quag is doing an excellent job at trolling us?

I'm fine with that.

It's always fun to talk about not reading your role PM.

[EmpTyger]

The question of whether the gambit is or can be good strategy, while interesting, I feel is ultimately moot. There’s a more fundamental issue here. The game of Mafia is a *game*. In order for the game to work, all players must agree to play by rules, rules which are set and upheld by an impartial moderator.

If Quagmire's Gambit is a legit strategy, then there should be no issue with disclosing its use to the mod. Instead, at least as I believe it is being used, it seems to require subverting the mod: a player says they’ve confirmed their role, when they actually haven’t read it. And that disallows it as a strategy.

Consider in face-to-face mafia, when the mod tells you to close your eyes, is it acceptable to pretend to close your eyes, but secretly keep them open? Even though the player probably won’t be caught? Even though the player gains a strategic advantage? Even if they just do it Night 1?

---

Now, in a situation where if Quagmire's Gambit *is* in accordance with the moderation (and the mod doesn’t require inthread confirmation which would make the gambit’s use obvious)- well, then by all means have a discussion about whether it's optimal strategy or not. but I don't really think that's the situation here.

[Adel]

Note that Quagmire's Gambit is the MoS Gambit (claiming to not read role PM, or claiming to have forgotten the role PM) except that MoS wasn't sincere about not reading his role PM, and only made his claim to make people think that whatever tells they had against him were not valid.

[Sanjay]

I can see people claiming not to have read it, but do people seriously try to claim they forgot their role?

Do you have any links? I'd love to read how that went down.

[Sanjay]

(My guess is really, really well.)

[Adel]

oops, I left out the most important difference: MoS made his claims in the post game. Quag makes his claim day 1

Wow, you guys caught both power roles D1? Damn. Although I really don't know how you figured out I was a power role, cuz I didn't even know I was a power role! Lol.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 637#798637

*sigh*

Again, I didn't attempt to forget who my scumbuddy was in this game. This setup was different, and I thought that the nightless aspect would require that I know who my scumbuddy was in order to play better. I just forgot who my scumbuddy was on accident.

Honestly, I don't buy that in virtually every game, you naturally forget your scumbuddies' identities. I never have, and I never will. Even "out-of-game," you have every reason to lie about this, because it protects an entire subset of games you play (those in which you are groupscum) without hurting you in any of the other games.

I have, on rare occasion, forgotten the identity of one of my scumbuddies, but unless I'm mistaken, that has always been when said scumbuddy was one among several players with whom I had never played (meaning I didn't have a well-developed sense of identity of any of these players).

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 163#973163
(this game also featured Quag claiming not to to have read his role PM on day 1)

[Quagmire]

Even though Adel didn't say anything inflammatory I feel like she's trying to troll me.

[popsofctown]

It's not really hard to say "I don't know what I am, so I'll try and scumhunt until I do."

No, but my point is that there are differences in your play that will come out subconsciously. The only reason (I imagine) that you think not reading your role PM is a good idea is because you believe the knowledge will affect your play, unconsciously and whether you like it or not, in ways that could be bad if you're scum or have a PR---but what I'm saying is, not knowing you're town (and especially, not knowing you're vanilla town) will make you play differently than you do as town, just as surely and unavoidably as knowing you're not town will.

This is the reason I decided it's not strategically advantageous for me to avoid reading my role pm.


I'd do it if a mod forgot to forbid the strategy, if I never had to imply to the mod that I had read my pm (i always thought you were /confirming that you were still available to play the game *shrug*), AND i thought it was advantageous. But I don't think it is. The halfway state between scum and town, logically, is going to be scummier than just being town. So might as well read my role pm and avoid strange Day 2 attitude changes and car accidents.

[Adel]

Even though Adel didn't say anything inflammatory I feel like she's trying to troll me.

Not likely. I lose my bet if you get banned before Dec. 12th.

[shaft.ed]

Even though Adel didn't say anything inflammatory I feel like she's trying to troll me.

Not likely. I lose my bet if you get banned before Dec. 12th.

Is Kmd finally going to win an avatar bet then?

[Quagmire]

It's not really hard to say "I don't know what I am, so I'll try and scumhunt until I do."

No, but my point is that there are differences in your play that will come out subconsciously. The only reason (I imagine) that you think not reading your role PM is a good idea is because you believe the knowledge will affect your play, unconsciously and whether you like it or not, in ways that could be bad if you're scum or have a PR---but what I'm saying is, not knowing you're town (and especially, not knowing you're vanilla town) will make you play differently than you do as town, just as surely and unavoidably as knowing you're not town will.

At this point we're going to have to agree to disagree, as I don't think that's the case at all, and I can't think of a way to objectively measure who's right and who's wrong here.

However, I don't see the difference between being a townsperson blind to everyone else's alignments, and an outside player reading the game to try and figure out the alignments of the players in that game. Both roles are just as blind to the rest of the setup, and thus both would scumhunt one in the same. I feel I do my best scumhunting the more detached I feel from the game (this doesn't imply boredom during a game).

I'm still not decided how I feel about this practice from a mod's perspective. I like players to have freedom, but at the same time, if EVERYONE decided to play in this manner the game would be completely non-functional on Day1. I will most likely combat such tactics with a prevelance of roles that would greatly benefit from reading their PM pre-game rather than flat out blacklisting players.

If I were to mod a game, I'd prevent this 'tactic' by requiring players to pm me their role name and win condition in order to confirm. Players retain their freedom not to play in games with such rulesets

Mods should place this warning at the beginning of the announcement of their game in order to avoid dealing with players like me, who will stubbornly not read their role PM on day 1 during daystarts no matter what, so as to avoid finding a replacement during confirmation stages, which are (IMO) just as irritating as replacements on Day 5.

[Quagmire]

Doing things blindly really seems suboptimal to me. I don't know why you feel so insecure about your scum game that you have to play in this manner. And you've basically replied as though the difference is rather subtle between reading and not reading your PM. It seems as though the strategy may be a thing that works for you, but I have a feeling you just like stirring the pot. I personally wouldn't try this because it would remove quite a bit of enjoyment from the game for me.

It adds plenty of enjoyment for me.

What I enjoy the most in mafia is the day one and day two analytical portions of the game, where behaviors and arguments are taken into account before game setup and mechanics. Taking a step back from my role provides me the best opportunity to do this job well.

It's by far where my best play comes, because once game setup and mechanics rear their heads in the later stages of the game, I'm generally clueless.

I'm still not decided how I feel about this practice from a mod's perspective. I like players to have freedom, but at the same time, if EVERYONE decided to play in this manner the game would be completely non-functional on Day1. I will most likely combat such tactics with a prevelance of roles that would greatly benefit from reading their PM pre-game rather than flat out blacklisting players.

Considering all the people who agree with me, I don't think you have to worry about many players doing what I do.

[Quagmire]

Many posts in this topic have raised another issue I feel is wrong in its theory and its practice, which is "Policy lynch someone for ___________."

Policy lynches are always suboptimal play.

[Quagmire]

People who don't read their role PM and don't

tell

people that they didn't read their role PM would be a bigger problem.

After Tree Stump I, where the majority of day one was a me vs. the rest of the town fiasco that ended up in my policy lynch, I didn't tell any mod of any game I played in that I didn't read my role PM day 1. So I guess I'm a plague to mafia.

[shaft.ed]

People who don't read their role PM and don't

tell

people that they didn't read their role PM would be a bigger problem.

After Tree Stump I, where the majority of day one was a me vs. the rest of the town fiasco that ended up in my policy lynch, I didn't tell any mod of any game I played in that I didn't read my role PM day 1. So I guess I'm a plague to mafia.

I thought that was apparent by now.

Really Quag, the more I think about this, the more I think that not reading your role PM is fine as long as you aren't violating explicit game rules (ie lying to the mod depending on confirmation procedures). If you feel like you play better that way, then go for it. Different strokes for different folks.

[Raskol]

I don't see the difference between being a townsperson blind to everyone else's alignments, and an outside player reading the game to try and figure out the alignments of the players in that game. Both roles are just as blind to the rest of the setup, and thus both would scumhunt one in the same. I feel I do my best scumhunting the more detached I feel from the game (this doesn't imply boredom during a game).

Well, they differ in at least one way: one of them knows the role of at least one of the players.

Aside from that, playing the game like an outsider would read it is not even close to the same thing as playing as a townie---so if you want to say that not reading your role pm makes you play like someone who isn't in the game, you're making my point for me. Being completely blind is the opposite of what you should be going for, as one of the biggest factors affecting townies' behavior is exactly the certain knowledge that they are town. If you don't know you're scum, you might be able to avoid unconscious influences that will make you drop scumtells, but likewise, if you don't know you're town, you will avoid just as much the unconscious influences that would make you drop towntells. It's exactly the same situation and you can't claim you'll have your cake and eat it too. If lack of knowledge affects your play, it will do so both ways (while also preventing you from using any kind of role-specific tactic that may have been able to benefit you).

[shaft.ed]

Being completely blind is the opposite of what you should be going for, as one of the biggest sources of towntells is exactly the certain knowledge that you yourself are town. Without that, no, you will not play as a townie would.

This is a complete reach here. What kind of player is going to say "I might be a townie but I haven't read my role PM." Of course anyone in the game not having read their PM is going to play as a townie by default.

[Raskol]

Being completely blind is the opposite of what you should be going for, as one of the biggest sources of towntells is exactly the certain knowledge that you yourself are town. Without that, no, you will not play as a townie would.

This is a complete reach here. What kind of player is going to say "I might be a townie but I haven't read my role PM." Of course anyone in the game not having read their PM is going to play as a townie by default.

No, they'll play as a role-uncertain player by default.

Let me put it this way: we have three people thinking about crossing the border: a person who knows they have drugs in their car, a person who knows they don't have drugs in their car, and a person who knows only that they have about a 25-33% chance of having drugs in their car.

Do you think any of these people will act exactly the same as any of the others? Do you think their thought processes will be the same?