Mini 856 - Star Control: Zeta Sextantis - Over

[Kmd4390]

Vote Papa Zito

Why didn't you vote until your second post?

Plum, that's kinda funny. I can't come up with another time I've been town in a game with you.

[Papa Zito]

GOES, GOES: KMD

(that means "daykill" for those of you non-SC freaks)

I'm also going to need a replacement as of right now.

OMG Orz

OMG replace?

@KMD: I was excited that Plum replaced in.

[Kmd4390]

So what happened to your random vote? You

forgot

out of excitement?

[Papa Zito]

... I put it in my next post.

Why KMD, is random voting in your second post a scumtell?

[Kmd4390]

Seems too careful to wait. Scum try to be careful.

[Papa Zito]

On a random vote? Really?

[Kmd4390]

Yep. You're scum. I'm sure of it. Your defense of "OMG really?!? Me?!? Nooo" reinforces this.

[Papa Zito]

No, your attack just sucks.

[sigma]

Yep. You're scum. I'm sure of it.

On page 2 no less.

Unvote

Vote: Kmd4390

Don't you think it's a little early to start convincing players that you've found scum?

[Plum]

Yeah, Kmd, your attack does just suck.

Yep. You're scum. I'm sure of it. Your defense of "OMG really?!? Me?!? Nooo" reinforces this.

That wasn't his reaction, ha-ha.

Also yes you're always scum, give or take. Outside of Hydra games, we've never both been playing in a game and both been Town. I'm Town now, so it would follow that you're scum. Theoretically. But your attack on Zito is crud, so.

@ Papa Zito - what games, out of curiosity?

[Porkens]

Oh wow, Zito, Plum, sigma scumteam.

unvote; vote: Papa Zito

[Papa Zito]

Oh wow, Zito, Plum, sigma scumteam.

unvote; vote: Papa Zito

Of course. Scum are always this obvious in thread. That's why mafia is such an easy game.

[Excedrin]

FoS: Sigma

Should you wait to convince people that you've found scum?

Case in point, Papa Zito. His sarcastic response seems pretty scummy to me. Easy game indeed.

Vote: Papa Zito

[sigma]

FoS: Sigma

Should you wait to convince people that you've found scum?

Vote: Papa Zito

Not if 'finding' scum consists of essentially nothing. The goal of this stage of the game is to generate discussion, not convince other players to vote your lynch target. Anyone who says that they're sure that they've found scum on page 2 is lying -- or possibly scum trying to look like the stereotypical aggressive pro-town player.

[Excedrin]

If you're saying that scum has to be proven by a case that includes multiple points, then I disagree.

For example, you have a reliable read based on meta that whenever a particular player does X, they're likely scum, then you observe that behavior on the first page.

Actually, I find that scum sometimes does something really obvious at the start of a game and then gradually appears more and more town as the game progresses because they explain away and fix their scummy behavior.

[Papa Zito]

lolwagon

So just to recap, the case on me is:

1. Random voted in the second post
2. Sarcasm

Wow congrats guys.

[Rising]

I find that scum sometimes does something really obvious at the start of a game and then gradually appears more and more town as the game progresses because they explain away and fix their scummy behavior.

So if Papa comes up with a valid and sensible explanation, that would actually

reinforce

your opinion that he is scum?

Setting up "screwed if you do, screwed if you don't"-traps isn't pro-town.

vote: Excedrin

becuase I disagree.

[Kast]

@Sigma-
Strongly disagree with your generalized statement. Scum can give themselves away on a first post on page 1 or early page 2. This is not such a rare event as to be equivalent to being unheard of.

In our current situation, I don't think anyone has publicly identified any such events, but that says nothing about the general case. Using a fallacious generalization instead of directly addressing your point of contention leaves lots of space for ambiguity and is just generally sloppy and not great play for town.

@Excedrin-
Strongly agree with this assessment of how things often work.

@Rising-
You're putting a crap straw man argument into Excedrin's mouth and justifying a stupid vote on that as though it were a serious one. He didn't setup any such trap. He made an observation that is very rational, easily corroborated with anecdotal evidence, and easily corroborated by checking any of a number of ongoing and/or completed games on the forums.

@Porkens-
Are you actually in need of replacement? If so, since we are still very early and not everyone has posted beyond confirmation, perhaps we can get the mod to "bend" the BaM rule set and replace. If not, does a player who requests replacement get modkilled and banned from future BaM games?

[Dry-fit]

The goal of this stage of the game is to generate discussion, not convince other players to vote your lynch target. Anyone who says that they're sure that they've found scum on page 2 is lying -- or possibly scum trying to look like the stereotypical aggressive pro-town player.

But that's exactly what the purpose of Kmd's vote and comment were, to generate discussion. So you're saying he's scum for accomplishing the goal of this stage by creating discussion?

[Rising]

He made an observation that is very rational, easily corroborated with anecdotal evidence, and easily corroborated by checking any of a number of ongoing and/or completed games on the forums.

When you read a completed game and you already

know

who's scum, then it's very easy to think that even those early posts are full of clear scumtells.

I actually agree with Excedrin that "scum sometimes does something really obvious at the start of a game and then gradually appears more and more town", but you know what? So does regular townies. And this is

just

as rational and easily observed in the forums. Therefore, this isn't a reliable way to hunt scum.

But now when you've mentioned it, I guess this theory could be tested; if one were to look at games that you and Excedrin have played as town; and counted every time you placed your first non-random vote successfully on a scum, do you think that you would have a higher-than-expected ratio? I seriously doubt it.

[sigma]

If you're saying that scum has to be proven by a case that includes multiple points, then I disagree.

For example, you have a reliable read based on meta that whenever a particular player does X, they're

likely

scum, then you observe that behavior on the first page.

Key word underlined in your post. Kmd didn't say Papa was likely scum, he said that he is scum. I think the former is reasonable and the latter is not, hence the vote.

@Sigma-
Strongly disagree with your generalized statement. Scum can give themselves away on a first post on page 1 or early page 2. This is not such a rare event as to be equivalent to being unheard of.

Point taken -- I should have qualified that generalized statement with 'most of the time' or something similar, and not doing so was sloppy, I agree.

But that's exactly what the purpose of Kmd's vote and comment were, to generate discussion. So you're saying he's scum for accomplishing the goal of this stage by creating discussion?

That's a bit of a logical leap from the first sentence to the second sentence, isn't it? Sure, he generated discussion -- bully for him, I'll keep it in mind. I wasn't a fan of the way in which he generated discussion, however -- he did it by saying that he's sure someone's scum. My opinion is that this could possibly be scum trying to appear like the stereotypical aggressive pro-town player, and I voted him to underline this point.

[KeelieRavenWolf]

Don't you think it's a little early to start convincing players that you've found scum?

It is never too early. If someone believes they have found a clear scum tell, they can feel free to shout it to the heavens. Other players may, of course, brush them off as insane or foolhardy but, as is customary our species, everyone has their own opinions, which we are entitled to.
Of course, as was stated, this is the part during which most players will make a decision to cause a scattered reaction from the rest of us, so that they can judge whether we be town or scum.
But apparently randomvote second post IS a very clear scum tell, if you ask KMD. This entire game is merely a way to test one's personal human behavioral throries without doing too much by way of individual body language.
On that note,

Vote: Plum.

Reason being the overeagerness of her shout to being town.
It's like when your mother said she needed to talk to you and the first thing you said was "It wasn't me!" because in reality, you were the one who spilt the juice on the nice white carpet and tried to hide it.
Guilty conscience concept.

[Porkens]

lolwagon

So just to recap, the case on me is:

1. Random voted in the second post
2. Sarcasm

Wow congrats guys.

3. Patronizing tone.

supervote: Zito

If I were vig, I'd shoot KMD.

[Plum]

Porkens, Excerin, does that patronizing tone look to you like

a) Scum trying to blow off a good and legit attack by ridiculing it (sarcasm, patronizing tone, what have you)

OR

b) Someone exhibiting a null-tell in pointing out that the case for a bandwagon is, in his personal and not unreasonable opinion, crud

???
Or, explain, Excedrin, why the sarcasm indicates scumhood. Porkens, random-vote-in-second-post, sarcasm, patronizing tone = scumhood explain the connection please thanks.

Rising - your argument against Excedrin is strawman city. Early game tells shouldn't be downplayed in importance (and yes, scum can and do worm their ways out of early game mistakes). Excedrin didn't say that if Zito came up with a good explanation for his actions it would

reinforce

his opinion, only that it would not necessarily decrease the likelyhood of Zito being scum based on his actions to that point. If my vote on Kmd were not better-than-random due to his actions I'd probably vote slightly-better-than-random-vote Rising now.

Keelie, I hear what you're saying. I generally avoid stuff like saying I'm Town and/or commenting on deaths at the start of a Day as any alignment simply because it's not worth the bother I'll get for that sort of thing as any alignment. I suppose I felt a little looser with that tendency than usual because it was the beginning of the game. I would say it's a personal nulltell - like slightly breaking out of my overall, town-scum-whatever meta in general - but consider it how you will.

[Porkens]

ATM the scummiest thing about Zito is that you are defending him