Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 1.3

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

MonkeyMan576: 4: MacavityLock (7), Ectomancer (9), ekiM (12), Eldritch Lord (13)
~Jordan`: 3: springlullaby (2), MonkeyMan576 (4), Malcolm (6)
Ectomancer: 2: elvis_knits (8), Snix (10)
elvis_knits: 1: Kirbyoshi (11)

Not Voting: Debonair Danny DiPietro, ~Jordan`

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Currently MonkeyMan576 would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 1:00 PM EDT/10 AM PDT on Wednesday, October 7th 2009.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not sure what I can do to further my case on scum-ecto and scum-Jordan, I think I've presented a fairly strong case. It may not have been strong in the beginning, but I think their behavior since then has reinforced my case. I think it would be a good idea for those of us voting for Ecto or Jordan decided on one wagon. If we get to a point of 5 on the wagon(L-2) I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for a roleclaim.

[ekiM]

Reasons I'm happy with my vote:

• Monkeyman continues to burn pixels badmouthing Ecto's arguments instead of just responding.
  
• Continuing to fish for role info from SL. Just stop.
  
• Asserting that defending another player is a scumtell. It isn't. Kirbyoshi used this one, too.
  
• Ignoring 88.
  
• Pushing for a claim when the thread has barely been open 24 hours!

Note the absence of "He posted with an alt". . It is unhelpful, though.

[ekiM]

I think I've presented a fairly strong case. It may not have been strong in the beginning, but I think their behavior since then has reinforced my case.

This is a real gem. You admit your case isn't strong, and assert anyway that Ecto and Jordan just must be buddies; after all, why would a townie disagree with a weak case like that? That's an... interesting... thought process to go through.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think I've presented a fairly strong case. It may not have been strong in the beginning, but I think their behavior since then has reinforced my case.

This is a real gem. You admit your case isn't strong, and assert anyway that Ecto and Jordan just must be buddies; after all, why would a townie disagree with a weak case like that? That's an... interesting... thought process to go through.

I didn't say my case wasn't strong, I said it wasn't strong in the beginning. The more I heard from the two, the more it reinforced my case. And Jordan never disagreed with my case, he just said I was "strange" without giving any explanation. He's still lurking.

And the stage of the day has no bearing on weather someone should be asked to roleclaim or not. The debate between ecto and I has been fairly intense, and I don't think both sides have been presented and there's not a whole lot more to be gained by excessive debate. That being said, I'm always willing to listen to opinions, but I don't see a whole lot of people offering anything new.

[MonkeyMan576]

EBWOP: I think both sides have been presented.

[Eldritch Lord]

I think it would be a good idea for those of us voting for Ecto or Jordan decided on one wagon. If we get to a point of 5 on the wagon(L-2) I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for a roleclaim.

It looks extremely scummy to me that you're levying the choice of which one to consolidate votes on to others rather than making the suggestion yourself, it certainly sets you up for a nice position on Day Two if whichever one you consolidate on turns up pro-town -- gives you someone else to blame.

Especially when my formal logic post at the bottom of page four has outlined, fairly clearly, based on your reasoning which one to choose.

I'm happy with my vote.

[Ectomancer]

Snix, I challenge you to explain the logic that would dictate that a town player ignore a universally confusing statement and in the next moment take a scummy poke at a possible town softclaim. His lack of caution surrounding the softclaim utterly dispels the notion that he is cautious by nature, which is the excuse he gave for ignoring Spring.

I cannot explain another's actions in the least bit. I can only explain how I feel about it, and personally it seems like a null tell. SL had a confusing post about her roll and others had already asked for clarification. The entire town does not need to restate the same obvious thing.

Actually only I had asked anything at that point. Monkey was 3rd to respond after she posted and I expressed disappointment in both Monkey and Kirby at that time.

Now as for my strong logic:

1. You seem intent on monopolising this conversation in a monkey bash that still does not impress me. It has no sure footing and still seems to be grasping at straws.

It certainly does have footing and I will provide you with an example of someone acting in an inconsistent manner very similiar to Monkey. I have caught scum definitively with this particular tell, so here you go:
This is a relevant quote from that game for those who don't feel like digging through another game:

Ectomancer wrote = Still dont believe that Darkdude is scum?
Then tell me why he would discourage discussion about one of our discoveries (the gun inventor), yet encourage discussion about our amnesiac cop. He even goes so far as to ask the recipient of the message to breadcrumb! So you can kill him tonight before he reveals the only result we might have?

Game link: start reading on day 2
viewtopic.php?t=9792&postdays=0&postord ... &start=275

If you don't believe that link and scumtell and successful scum lynch are relevant, let me know so we can debate it. It applies here.

2. You are defending Jordan, no matter how you put it. The fact that you deny it just makes it clearer that there is a connection you don't want seen.

Semantics. Assisting him against the case by Monkey is a by product of calling out a scum.

3. Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced? Could be.

Could be from a perspective other than mine.

Answer me this; Who do you think are Monkey's scum buddies at this point? Do you think Jordan could be scum?

Of interest is Kirby. He also ignored ... ure games.

[Eldritch Lord]

3. Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced? Could be.

Could be from a perspective other than mine.

This was a weak point, and a weak response.

Your last paragraph is a little difficult to follow Ecto, I'll chew on it for a while before responding.

[Ectomancer]

@Elvis - The thought came to me either last game or the game before. I was under medication and the (not quite) accusation was that I could be exaggerating its effects to benefit myself in the game. I was not, but it lead me to think about how people could manipulate outside variables to their benefit in game. Making it harder for people to build cases against you because your posts are scattered across 2 different accounts and the chronology is intermingled is one that would certainly benefit scum, especially if you miss something because it was on the other account.
I don't think anyone but you thinks this is in any way necessary to the case against Monkey, and you avoided the rest just to talk about this? It disrupts the game, there are scummy purposes for doing it, and if he is town, it needed to be pointed out anyhow. Could you go look at that link, how I caught Darkdude, see what my case is now, and see how they mirror each other? and then chat about it.

(IE Monkey's statement that Jordan saying that monkey is weird is OMGUS when he a. already had a vote on Jordan and b. didn't really push for jordan's lynch anymore than he had.) is a null tell.

Wait, please dont say you think my vote is because Monkey called Jordan's response to my question OMGUS. Seriously, because if you do I'm on the Moon and you are on Mars.

Oh, in all this I actually forgot a valid point. Monkey didnt care about Spring's softclaim, until she said she wouldn't talk about it anymore. Then suddenly he wanted her talking about it again.

[Eldritch Lord]

Just pointing out that you misquoted, I did not write that.

[MacavityLock]

Ecto, can you please preview and correct the tags in your posts next time? I'm finding it rather hard to parse your most recent two.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think it would be a good idea for those of us voting for Ecto or Jordan decided on one wagon. If we get to a point of 5 on the wagon(L-2) I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for a roleclaim.

It looks extremely scummy to me that you're levying the choice of which one to consolidate votes on to others rather than making the suggestion yourself, it certainly sets you up for a nice position on Day Two if whichever one you consolidate on turns up pro-town -- gives you someone else to blame.

Especially when my formal logic post at the bottom of page four has outlined, fairly clearly, based on your reasoning which one to choose.

I'm happy with my vote.

That's not what I'm doing at all. What's with all the psychoanalyzing? I have actual semi-hard evidence of a connection between two players and people are coming up with all this fluff stuff.

That being said, I'm not suggesting your logic in wrong, merely suggesting that consolidating on jordon or ecto would bring a better result.

[Ectomancer]

Sorry, here's one.

Snix, I challenge you to explain the logic that would dictate that a town player ignore a universally confusing statement and in the next moment take a scummy poke at a possible town softclaim. His lack of caution surrounding the softclaim utterly dispels the notion that he is cautious by nature, which is the excuse he gave for ignoring Spring.

I cannot explain another's actions in the least bit. I can only explain how I feel about it, and personally it seems like a null tell. SL had a confusing post about her roll and others had already asked for clarification. The entire town does not need to restate the same obvious thing.

Actually only I had asked anything at that point. Monkey was 3rd to respond after she posted and I expressed disappointment in both Monkey and Kirby at that time.

Now as for my strong logic:

1. You seem intent on monopolising this conversation in a monkey bash that still does not impress me. It has no sure footing and still seems to be grasping at straws.

It certainly does have footing and I will provide you with an example of someone acting in an inconsistent manner very similiar to Monkey. I have caught scum definitively with this particular tell, so here you go:
This is a relevant quote from that game for those who don't feel like digging through another game:

Ectomancer wrote = Still dont believe that Darkdude is scum?
Then tell me why he would discourage discussion about one of our discoveries (the gun inventor), yet encourage discussion about our amnesiac cop. He even goes so far as to ask the recipient of the message to breadcrumb! So you can kill him tonight before he reveals the only result we might have?

Game link: start reading on day 2
viewtopic.php?t=9792&postdays=0&postord ... &start=275

If you don't believe that link and scumtell and successful scum lynch are relevant, let me know so we can debate it. It applies here.

2. You are defending Jordan, no matter how you put it. The fact that you deny it just makes it clearer that there is a connection you don't want seen.

Semantics. Assisting him against the case by Monkey is a by product of calling out a scum.

3. Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced? Could be.

Could be from a perspective other than mine.

Answer me this; Who do you think are Monkey's scum buddies at this point? Do you think Jordan could be scum?

Of interest is Kirby. He also ignored Spring, but I'm not certain he even read it or realized he might want to respond to it. (Scum with blinders worrying more about their response than what is actually happening in thread). In that post he did a bout of sucking up to me "Ecto's right", with the same assertion that Monkey did (Jordan made a soft claim).
Now it strikes me that I didn't see a softclaim coming from Jordan, but you cant just let a comment about bad luck go by, so you ask. As far as a softclaim goes, what would he be softclaiming? "Oh the bad luck, I got a scum role."? Realize here that scum are still chatting while this is going on. What do you think they would have had to talk about? That's right, a soft claim by Jordan. They would know he isn't claiming scum and would certainly be interested in what he is hinting at. So it is little wonder that Kirby mentioned it and then nobody talked about it, until Monkey breaks it out as a reason for his vote on Jordan. Coincidence?
And then consider after Kirby attempted a light defense of Monkey and the question turned to Kirby, he stopped by this forum, but didn't respond. Perhaps he was late to dinner, or perhaps he just needs more time to think? I didn't take a screenshot, so I have no evidence this occurred, so take that one with a grain of salt. I know though.

Do I think Jordan could be scum? Not likely should Monkey turn up scum. He would have little reason to pursue a softclaim. Speaking of Jordan, a Monkey/Kirby scum pair would actually seem less likely as they were the two he chose as suspects from his wagon and I don't have any particular faith in Jordan's scum hunting ability. Beginner's luck? If he turns up right, I'll give more respect to gut in my future games.

[Ectomancer]

Here's the other

@Elvis - The thought came to me either last game or the game before. I was under medication and the (not quite) accusation was that I could be exaggerating its effects to benefit myself in the game. I was not, but it lead me to think about how people could manipulate outside variables to their benefit in game. Making it harder for people to build cases against you because your posts are scattered across 2 different accounts and the chronology is intermingled is one that would certainly benefit scum, especially if you miss something because it was on the other account.
I don't think anyone but you thinks this is in any way necessary to the case against Monkey, and you avoided the rest just to talk about this? It disrupts the game, there are scummy purposes for doing it, and if he is town, it needed to be pointed out anyhow. Could you go look at that link, how I caught Darkdude, see what my case is now, and see how they mirror each other? and then chat about it.

(IE Monkey's statement that Jordan saying that monkey is weird is OMGUS when he a. already had a vote on Jordan and b. didn't really push for jordan's lynch anymore than he had.) is a null tell.

Wait, please dont say you think my vote is because Monkey called Jordan's response to my question OMGUS. Seriously, because if you do I'm on the Moon and you are on Mars.

Oh, in all this I actually forgot a valid point. Monkey didnt care about Spring's softclaim, until she said she wouldn't talk about it anymore. Then suddenly he wanted her talking about it again.

[Snix]

Wait, please dont say you think my vote is because Monkey called Jordan's response to my question OMGUS. Seriously, because if you do I'm on the Moon and you are on Mars.

Roight, sorry. I had it in my mind that you voted slightly earlier than you did. Although the point still does apply.

1. Meta-gaming never struck right with me, and that isn't even Monkey. One man's response to two different softclaims is different from another

2. Fair point

3. Saying that's not how you see it is as close to dodging as possible without not answering the question.

My vote stays on you for now but, MacavityLock do you have anything to say other than a critique of someone elses posting abilities?

[Eldritch Lord]

I think it would be a good idea for those of us voting for Ecto or Jordan decided on one wagon. If we get to a point of 5 on the wagon(L-2) I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for a roleclaim.

It looks extremely scummy to me that you're levying the choice of which one to consolidate votes on to others rather than making the suggestion yourself, it certainly sets you up for a nice position on Day Two if whichever one you consolidate on turns up pro-town -- gives you someone else to blame.

Especially when my formal logic post at the bottom of page four has outlined, fairly clearly, based on your reasoning which one to choose.

I'm happy with my vote.

That's not what I'm doing at all. What's with all the psychoanalyzing? I have actual semi-hard evidence of a connection between two players and people are coming up with all this fluff stuff.

That being said, I'm not suggesting your logic in wrong, merely suggesting that consolidating on jordon or ecto would bring a better result.

Psychoanalysis is the result of a majority of my mafia experience being real-life experience with friends who I know well. Still, it has its uses even in an online environment.

And I'm saying, given my logic, the choice should be obvious and there's no reason for you to dance around suggesting that votes be consolidated but not specify which one they should be consolidated on.

I'm not trying to play hardball here, but you're really dodging me on this.

[Eldritch Lord]

Snix, perhaps you missed it, but there's a formal logic post at the bottom of page four and I would be interested in hearing your response to it.

[Snix]

ahh yes, EL but, cut off the head of a serpent and the body ceases to move.

Your logic is flawed, you fail to take into account the fact that although Jordan was a part of the attacks, Ecto was the leader and, if town, horribly mislead and if scum the charismatic one (this is where my money lies). whereas Jordan as a high chance of just being a newb.

[Eldritch Lord]

That does not mean my logic is flawed, it simply means you perceive Ecto's experience to be a great enough threat that it overrides the mathematical probability of Ecto Scum VS. Jordan Scum.

This is interesting to me, I would rather take the better odds of lynching scum and make a move on the "head" of the snake on Day 2, especially since you're more suspicious of Ecto. Your primary argument still relies on the fact that Ecto is helping a less experienced scumbuddy. If that's the case and you lynch Jordan today, Ecto will have less ability to maneuver than he has now.

And that buzz in your head? That's pride fuckin' with you.

Still, as far as formal logic dictates, Jordan is still the better choice.

[Eldritch Lord]

If that's the case and you lynch Jordan today, Ecto will have less ability to maneuver than he has now.

That is, assuming Jordan comes up scum.

And if Jordan did not come up scum, it means that we still

may

have Ecto's experience and dedication to the game (those are some long posts) on town side.

Whereas if you lynch Ecto and he comes up town, it means that Jordan may still well be newb scum who caught a lucky break in "allying" with Ecto. This leaves us with no better capability to infer as to Jordan's alignment and a newb player who is of significantly less value at this point than Ecto.

No offense to Jordan, I'm simply making these judgments based on posting thusfar.

[MacavityLock]

My vote stays on you for now but, MacavityLock do you have anything to say other than a critique of someone elses posting abilities?

I'm catching up after a day of classes. Right now, I see nothing to put me off of the Monkey-wagon. Also, a question:

The debate between ecto and I has been fairly intense, and I think both sides have been presented and there's not a whole lot more to be gained by excessive debate. That being said, I'm always willing to listen to opinions, but I don't see a whole lot of people offering anything new.

Does this mean that you want us to stop bringing up the case? Does this mean that you want today's outcome to be either a you or Ecto/Jordan lynch? Don't we need to continue the debate to try to ferret out the correct scum?

----

I also have some questions for you, Snix.

1. You seem intent on monopolising this conversation in a monkey bash that still does not impress me. It has no sure footing and still seems to be grasping at straws.

Wherein has Ecto been grasping at straws? You certainly haven't provided examples as yet.

Answer me this; Who do you think are Monkey's scum buddies at this point? Do you think Jordan could be scum?

What is the purpose of the scumbuddy question at this point? Who couldn't be Monkey's scumbuddy right now? For that matter, the same is true of Jordan and Ecto. Making any sort of argument based on scumbuddies right now is awful.

Jordan would have passed under my Radar if Ecto and ML hadn't jumped on Monkey for something that seemed near harmless. The wagon on Jordan was already rolling, pointing out something that seems off in an overview (IE Monkey's statement that Jordan saying that monkey is weird is OMGUS when he a. already had a vote on Jordan and b. didn't really push for jordan's lynch anymore than he had.) is a null tell.

I don't understand this. How would Jordan have passed under your radar, given that he was the big wagon? How does me and Ecto going after Monkey say

anything

with respect to Jordan? I can't make sense of your second sentence here at all.

Ecto has my vote because Ecto seems scummy, Jordan seems scummy through Ecto's actions.

Again, without confirmed scum or confirmed town, I have a hard time seeing how someone's actions can make another person look scummy.

3. Saying that's not how you see it is as close to dodging as possible without not answering the question.

Your question was "Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced?" I'm not sure what you were expecting Ecto to say here. That is, how else can someone answer that other than with a yes or a no? Seriously loaded question.

----

Love to hear more from DDD, Kirby, and Malcolm.

[Snix]

Fair enough, If I believed Jordan was Scum all on his own. Which I don't. I clearly state in my last post I believe he is just a new player and not scum. Whereas Ecto's behavior seems to me like scum behavior, then ecto defends Jordan and jordan seems scummy through association. If Ecto comes up town I wont believe Jordan is scum at this point.

[Eldritch Lord]

Macavity's points are a well-organized summary of my position (though posts 120 and 121 are still important for both Monkey and Snix to consider), and what I believe to be the position of the entire Monkey bandwagon at this point.

It serves as a good recap of my side of the situation. Is there any way any of those on the Ecto/Jordan wagon could do something similar without getting too convoluted, its very convenient to have your position briefly outlined in one post.

[Eldritch Lord]

How is Ecto's behavior scummy in itself?