Mini 836: Commie Mafia (Game Over)

[Vaya]

If someone is attacking me, I'm not allowed to find their attacks scummy? Its only OMGUS if you don't have a valid reason to suspect them.

And no, I don't find anything scummy about it. Its a harmless, random bandwagon, nothing bad came out of it, and I can't see why you think it's such a big deal. You've yet to explain why you think the bandwagon is scummy.

[CoCo]

I've said plenty of times that I think its a scummy bandwagon. And I'm certian at least one of the people that jumped on (votes 3-5) are scum.

[Vaya]

You've yet to justify why you think its a scummy wagon. Also, you haven't explained why you single me out and not Sensfan or charter.

[CoCo]

Oh for fuck's sake! L-2 right out of the fucking gate is a scummy wagon. Stop digging for an explanition. There's nothing more to say. I'd say the same about any wagon like that starting up right away.

I singled you out because you voted third and allowed the wagon to take off. I've said this. The fact that you continue to carry on and ask me to explain something that is as plain as day furthers my resolve that you're scum.

[Vaya]

So you're saying it's somehow my fault the wagon went to L-2? Why blame me for this and not charter? And I still don't see the harm in putting someone at L-2, it's not going to kill them.

[CoCo]

So you're saying it's somehow my fault the wagon went to L-2? Why blame me for this and not charter? And I still don't see the harm in putting someone at L-2, it's not going to kill them.

Don't drag me into a circular argument. Read my posts and figure it out.

[CoCo]

Vaya, I'm not the only person who thought the opening wagon was odd. You're the one defending it so hard. You've admited it was an opportunistic play on your part. Putting it all together, I feel you're scum.

[Peabody]

Dang it, I need to get a random vote in before discussion starts:

vote mathcam

because I suck at math.

-----------------------------------

Ok, now onto other things:

If the point of RVS is to get discussion rolling, why is hoopla already at L-2? Something fishy is going on. Honestly, I'd say I agree with CoCo, le Chat and Col.Cathart on this subject. A L-2 is not good this early.

Vaya, was your vote on hoopla random?
------------------------

Charter, why are you getting a town reading on Hoopla and Vaya? Can you please point out specific posts that make you come to this conclusion?

[mathcam]

Early reports say both Hoopla and Vaya are town. Coco looks pretty suspect with his Vaya inquisition but ignoring the bandwagon votes of others. Looks like he's trying to build up a lynch on Vaya rather than question bandwagon votes.

unvote, vote CoCo

Was going to make the same piont myself.

Unvote, vote: Coco.

.

Cam

[CoCo]

Where are these early reports?

[Vaya]

Vaya, I'm not the only person who thought the opening wagon was odd. You're the one defending it so hard. You've admited it was an opportunistic play on your part. Putting it all together, I feel you're scum.

I'm not blaming you for thinking that it's unusual, this large of an early bandwagon doesn't happen to often. My problem is that you're being so stubborn in refusing to believe that it could not be scummy when you show no good or consistent reasoning to believe that it is. You keep changing you're stance on why you think it is scummy.

You are correct that chances are very good a lynch would not have happened.

What I AM suggesting is the opening wagon was not random.

At first you say you don't think there was a likely chance she would be lynched. You're just think its scummy because you think that the wagon wasn't random(What do you even mean by that?).

Egging on a bandwagon. If Hoopla = Town, scum would know and seek to get a quick lynch.

Then you turn around and say that its scummy because she may have been lynched, contradicting yourself here.

Oh for fuck's sake! L-2 right out of the fucking gate is a scummy wagon. Stop digging for an explanition. There's nothing more to say. I'd say the same about any wagon like that starting up right away.

I singled you out because you voted third and allowed the wagon to take off. I've said this. The fact that you continue to carry on and ask me to explain something that is as plain as day furthers my resolve that you're scum.

Then you get frustrated and just say its just scummy because it is.

You're not even trying to think about why or whether or not its scummy. You're just attacking me for any reason you can come up with. You've yet to show any valid and well backed reason to think I'm scum.

Also, you never gave a good reason for singling me out either. You just keep repeating 'you're the third vote, therefore you're somehow responsible for the wagon and the other two votes.'

[Vaya]

Ok, now onto other things:

If the point of RVS is to get discussion rolling, why is hoopla already at L-2? Something fishy is going on. Honestly, I'd say I agree with CoCo, le Chat and Col.Cathart on this subject. A L-2 is not good this early.

Vaya, was your vote on hoopla random?

For the last time, there's nothing wrong or scummy about an early random bandwagon.

My vote was an intentional bandwagon vote. When I said it was random, I meant that the wagon itself was random.

[CoCo]

I'm not blaming you for thinking that it's unusual, this large of an early bandwagon doesn't happen to often. My problem is that you're being so stubborn in refusing to believe that it could not be scummy when you show no good or consistent reasoning to believe that it is. You keep changing you're stance on why you think it is scummy.

Precisely because it doesn't happen that often. It gave me pause to consider.
Fact: The odds of scum being on that wagon are probably higher than it consisting entirely of townies.
Fact: The scum were allowed 21 hours to talk pre-game.

Charter and Sensfan have about as much to do with this as Talitha and Harumafuji. Your vote is the third of the game and wagon. Its also smack dab in the middle of the wagon.
Just look at posts 42-49. That's the entire wagon. Everything else has been discussion about it.

At first you say you don't think there was a likely chance she would be lynched. You're just think its scummy because you think that the wagon wasn't random(What do you even mean by that?).

See above. The wagon was scummy.
I don't think she would be lynched because good townies would either choose other votes or unvote.

Egging on a bandwagon. If Hoopla = Town, scum would know and seek to get a quick lynch.

Then you turn around and say that its scummy because she may have been lynched, contradicting yourself here.

This is misrepresentation. I said 'seek to get a quick lynch.' I said no such thing to imply a lynch was possible.

Then you get frustrated and just say its just scummy because it is.

Because IT IS. I was only frustrated because you failed to even bother to take a look at the situation objectively. Posts 42-49.

You're not even trying to think about why or whether or not its scummy. You're just attacking me for any reason you can come up with. You've yet to show any valid and well backed reason to think I'm scum.

Because I've already thought about it. Your vote, its placement on the wagon, your defensiveness.

Also, you never gave a good reason for singling me out either. You just keep repeating 'you're the third vote, therefore you're somehow responsible for the wagon and the other two votes.'

Is this post a good enough reason?

[Vaya]

I know this is very hypocritical coming from me, but I want to point out that every user in this game that has a problem with the wagon joined this site in 2009. All of the more experienced users so far have either stated that they don't have anything against blatant random bandwagons, or were a part of the wagon themselves. You guys really should think about it and consider that you could actually be wrong. If anyone have a good reason to believe that the wagon was scummy, I'm listening.

And on to CoCo's post:

I'm not blaming you for thinking that it's unusual, this large of an early bandwagon doesn't happen to often. My problem is that you're being so stubborn in refusing to believe that it could not be scummy when you show no good or consistent reasoning to believe that it is. You keep changing you're stance on why you think it is scummy.

Precisely because it doesn't happen that often. It gave me pause to consider.
Fact: The odds of scum being on that wagon are probably higher than it consisting entirely of townies.
Fact: The scum were allowed 21 hours to talk pre-game.

Again, I understand why it may have caught you're attention, but you should seriously consider that you could be wrong about it, you haven't brought up a valid point in favor of your opinion yet.

And of course at least one scum was probably on the wagon, almost half the the town was on it. That that doesn't mean their act of voting on the wagon is a sign of them being scum or that you can find them based off of this.

Charter and Sensfan have about as much to do with this as Talitha and Harumafuji. Your vote is the third of the game and wagon. Its also smack dab in the middle of the wagon.
Just look at posts 42-49. That's the entire wagon. Everything else has been discussion about it.

What does my position on the wagon have to do with anything? If I had waited for Sensfan to vote, then voted 4th, it wouldn't be as scummy?

At first you say you don't think there was a likely chance she would be lynched. You're just think its scummy because you think that the wagon wasn't random(What do you even mean by that?).

See above. The wagon was scummy.
I don't think she would be lynched because good townies would either choose other votes or unvote.

Egging on a bandwagon. If Hoopla = Town, scum would know and seek to get a quick lynch.

Then you turn around and say that its scummy because she may have been lynched, contradicting yourself here.

This is misrepresentation. I said 'seek to get a quick lynch.' I said no such thing to imply a lynch was possible.

What makes you believe the mafia consists entirely of idiots? Obviously, that wouldn't work, so why do you think the mafia would even bother making such a sad attempt at a quicklynch?

Then you get frustrated and just say its just scummy because it is.

Because IT IS. I was only frustrated because you failed to even bother to take a look at the situation objectively. Posts 42-49.

Just because I don't follow you're opinion, doesn't mean I'm being closed-minded. I've been completely open to listening to what you have to say, and refuting the points you bring up.

You on the other hand, are unwilling to see things from any perspective but your own. You completely ignore and disregard my explanation on why I jumped on the wagon and how it obviously wasn't an attempt to quicklynch Hoopla. You don't even bother trying to understand or refute what I say.

You're not even trying to think about why or whether or not its scummy. You're just attacking me for any reason you can come up with. You've yet to show any valid and well backed reason to think I'm scum.

Because I've already thought about it. Your vote, its placement on the wagon, your defensiveness.

Let me make this clear, defensiveness is not a scumtell. Don't even try to argue that it is, you would be wrong. I defend myself from attacks the same way regardless of alignment.

[charter]

Charter, why are you getting a town reading on Hoopla and Vaya? Can you please point out specific posts that make you come to this conclusion?

Hoopla's reaction to the wagon on her wasn't scummy, so I'm leaning town on her. Pretty much every post of Vaya's I've agreed with, so town there as well.

Vaya, I wouldn't continue to waste your breath defending yourself against CoCo (aka it's way too early in the game for quote wars). I can't imagine anyone is actually buying what he's selling, I'm certainly not.

[Vaya]

Vaya, I wouldn't continue to waste your breath defending yourself against CoCo (aka it's way too early in the game for quote wars). I can't imagine anyone is actually buying what he's selling, I'm certainly not.

You're right, I'll stop arguing with him.

[CoCo]

Charter, why are you getting a town reading on Hoopla and Vaya? Can you please point out specific posts that make you come to this conclusion?

Hoopla's reaction to the wagon on her wasn't scummy, so I'm leaning town on her. Pretty much every post of Vaya's I've agreed with, so town there as well.

Vaya, I wouldn't continue to waste your breath defending yourself against CoCo (aka it's way too early in the game for quote wars). I can't imagine anyone is actually buying what he's selling, I'm certainly not.

These aren't reports. These aren't even facts.

[Harumafuji]

Ha ha ha! That's an OMGUS vote.
I refuse to believe you don't see anything scummy about someone going to L-2 during the random phase.

I agree with the Charter and Mathcam. "Coco" Vaya, in each tunnel, ignoring the other key players, the same information in her car. I said, "here," he stopped, he said you need to see the rest of your game.

unvote. Vote: Coco

"Coco", questions why "Vaya 4" failed to explain the other voters?


PS: Wright, Mathcam to support the communist regime is suspicious!

[Kublai Khan]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 7

CoCo

- 4 - charter, Vaya, mathcam, Harumafuji - (L-3)

Hoopla

- 2 - Talitha, SensFan - (L-5)

Vaya

- 2 - CoCo, Hoopla - (L-5)

Harumafuji

- 1 - Col.Cathart - (L-6)

mathcam

- 1 - Peabody - (L-6)

Players not voting: Cyberbob, le Chat

[mathcam]

Ahhh...I suspect Haru is a non-native speaker. That should be interesting.

And I don't think we need to be too harsh on CoCo -- certainly common wisdom raises an eyebrow at a 5-person bandwaggon in the first few posts of a game. That he finds this suspicious is not that surprising. The whole "The bandwaggon is scummy" vs. "No its not" quote war isn't particularly informative, imho.

Cam

[Col.Cathart]

I know this is very hypocritical coming from me, but I want to point out that every user in this game that has a problem with the wagon joined this site in 2009. All of the more experienced users so far have either stated that they don't have anything against blatant random bandwagons, or were a part of the wagon themselves. You guys really should think about it and consider that you could actually be wrong. If anyone have a good reason to believe that the wagon was scummy, I'm listening.

The fact, that veterans doesn't see anything scummy in it, doesn't mean the newer players should follow them blindly. Sometimes, you can be surprised as hell, when something happens, even when probability and your previous experiences are just screaming 'impossible'.

Personally, I just don't believe that 5 people voted the same person at the beginning of the game for little or no reason. But this is too little to actually accuse anyone of anything, so for now I'm dropping this argument, and I'll wait for something more interesting.

also:

unvote

, because my vote on Harumafuji was a RVS vote, and just because he was a second to vote for Hoopla, and thus a 'bandwagon starter'. No use in keeping it. On the other hand...

I agree with the Charter and Mathcam. "Coco" Vaya, in each tunnel, ignoring the other key players, the same information in her car. I said, "here," he stopped, he said you need to see the rest of your game.

unvote. Vote: Coco

"Coco", questions why "Vaya 4" failed to explain the other voters?


PS: Wright, Mathcam to support the communist regime is suspicious!

This post makes my head spinning. What car?

[Hoopla]

Precisely because it doesn't happen that often. It gave me pause to consider.
Fact: The odds of scum being on that wagon are probably higher than it consisting entirely of townies.
Fact: The scum were allowed 21 hours to talk pre-game.

Debatable. I don't know if I want to do the math, but will agree that if every player's alignment on a 5-vote wagon was truly random, it is probable scum is there. But I think bandwagonning is more beneficial to town than to scum - town generates early reads. The closer to lynch they get, the more valuable they usually are. But the only thing scum has to gain from bandwagonning is the remote chance of a quick-lynch, which is never really worth the attention in itself.

In my experiences, early wagonning usually consists of town players. In fact, because I love you, I am willing share with you some data that shows it's generally a pro-town play.

[Vaya]

If that's how you feel, then why are you voting for him?

[Vaya]

The above was in response to mathcam's post.

[mathcam]

If that's how you feel, then why are you voting for him?

Cuz there's a difference between finding someone scummy and being condescending to them?

Cam