Newbie 800 ~ Mafia: The Reality Show (Game Over!)

[Haylen]

Haylen; Herself- Keep your WIFOM to yourself, please.

That would be a no. It was my weigh in on the conversation, take it or leave it.

As for the statistics, it was a rough guess.

[onion]

Why do you think trading townie lives for scum lives is an acceptable practice? You are aware there are other, safer, practices.

it seems like an acceptable practice because if a trade will prevent lynch-or-loose day 3. remember that i'm not voting for a confirmed townie here. she has a chance of being scum only a sqeezey bit higher than anyone else. so if someone hammered, either Cyren is scum and/or whoever hammed is scum. either way, we get at least 1 scum in the first 2 days. that seems acceptable.

How can we assume that what you propose (trade) would prove sucessful? It may at times- but it is in no way a common enough occurance to warrant such an action. Do you feel the same way? why?

i disregard the possibility that a townie would accidentally hammer because i posted directly after a vote count (028). i believe it was extremely clear at the time how many votes were currently on Cyren.

Do you honestly think Ric is playing buddy buddy? Aside from sharing a vote... which he voted for first, and you FOLLOWED HIM, I see no evidence.

Ric defends me against Cyren (058) and generally attacks him while he is attacking me. he tries to explain (085) what i do as a philosophy quirk instead of a scum tell. thus it seems to me that he is allying up. we are not currently sharing a vote; Ric unvoted, but seems to still suspect Cyren.

and a PS for xkcd fans. if i publish my thesis, i'll have an Erdos Number of 3!

[Raeil]

Why am i voting for Cyren? because Cyren and Raeil cross voted and Raeil withdrew his vote (031) a bit too quickly. i could swap my vote over to Raeil, but they are evenly early-game-suspicious right now.

Yes, because cross-voting on page 1 is an excellent scumtell.... (I know, it's WIFOM, but honestly...)

Onion, while I am glad you are making a case, you will need to find more evidence to actually push it. I assure you that I am town, and will fend off your accusations as they come so that you can redirect your attention towards actual scum.

(and an out of game comment: Congrats on your possible Erdos number! I'm just about to start college as a freshman math major)

------------------

Lordly Gent Raeli- Your posting pleases me. It is well set up, and wanted to thank you for that. Also, thanks for stepping up to answer questions- but let's get down to business, shall we? If deadline was in 2 days, who would you be voting for? if no one... why? (No one strikes me as scummy isn't a response).

Thank you for the compliment, I figure that the easiest way to show that I'm town is to make sure that my posts are clear and direct.

To answer your question: At this point, I probably wouldn't vote unless there was an L-1 and no one else to vote for the unlucky person (even if the unlucky person is me). Lynching is usually better than no-lynch on D1, so even if a townie goes down after a lot of discussion, it leaves plenty of evidence for people to pick apart. While some people strike me as scummy, two days seems like enough time to get a little bit more info, something that could change my mind.

Scumfeels/reasons listed below (not in any particular order)-

1. auditor9006 - First you messed with tags, then you messed with poetry, and I'm not enjoying it at all. Poetry is nice, but needs to be easily spelled out to help the town in a Mafia game. I'm happy you've cleaned up the tags, but if I have to dig to understand what you're saying (who you're accusing and what you're evidence is) then it hurts the town's thought process. Hurting the town's thought process makes me suspicious of scum.

Question for you to answer: How do you think posting something that is hard to dig through will help the town?

---

2. sideney - You're not posting much content... lurking (even though you are posting) is not something that helps the town, and what doesn't help the town, hurts the town.

Question for you to answer: Same question posed to me "If the deadline was in two days, who would you vote for and why? If no one, why?" (Thanks for asking Anticollie)

---

3. Onion - You're attacking me and Cyren because of our alleged cross-vote and then me getting off the bandwagon. While you are correct to be suspicious of me getting off the BW at L-1, I'm more suspicious of you for even considering putting someone

AT

L-1. Regardless of your desire to scumhunt, L-1 is NOT the place to start looking.

Question for you to answer: You've stated that you think Cyren and
I were cross-voting to distance ourselves from each other, but you've found other reasons to be suspicious of the other players. Of those you highlighted in post 94, which one are you most suspicious of? If you can, please elaborate on your reasoning.

---

4. Haylen - After re-reading, I discovered that you have contributed a grand total of one meaningful post... stop lurking and start posting. While you have posted several times, the only post I found to have meaning was post 60, all the rest are either answers to questions about mechanics, or solving auditor's poems. Post more, or I'll vote you (I detest lurking)

Question for you to answer: In regards to your most recent post you weighed in on that conversation, but really didn't push it along, so here's your chance to help us start determining scum. You voted Echo waaaaay back on page 1 (post 13). Do you still find him to be scummy enough to keep the vote? Regardless of a no or yes, please explain.

---

Other opinions on players:

1. Anticollie - You're the IC and are doing a lot of questioning. While you did spell my name wrong ( ) I don't get any scum or town feel off of you yet.

Question for you to answer: You're voting for Onion based mostly on his L-1 gambit, but who else are you suspicious of and why?

---

2. Ric - Sorry to say this, but I haven't really read enough of your posts to get any sort of feel... I apologize for not scrutinizing your post with as much fervor as I should. You are doing an excellent job of questioning, though. Anyway...

Question for you to answer: You did withdraw your vote from Cyren as you were fishing for info from her. Your original vote was random, but if you are trying to set up a case, you should have kept it. Anyway, just out of curiosity, why did you continue to keep your vote on Cyren as long as you did?

---

3. Echo - At this point, I've got a null-read from you, to be honest. Keep posting, though. Don't let RL get so in the way that you can't help us out or else you might start lurking... and as I told Haylen, I detest lurking.

Question for you to answer: You're voting for auditor because he's not helping the town with continual poetry. If you were looking beyond merely "not helping the town," who do you perceive as the most scummy and why? If it's still auditor, please add some extra explanation.

---

4. Cyren - Well, it appears we have been cast as scum-buddies by Onion... oh well. At this point, I have a null-read on you. Keep posting and building cases. If you end up being scum, I'm sure the more you post, the more it will become obvious, but the same holds true for being town.

Question for you to answer: You've been mostly focused on Onion and ric. While I understand you are trying to fish out scum, how would your attack change if one of them were confirmed town? (through either NK or lynch)

[Raeil]

EBWOP

To get rid of all possible questions from me not mentioning cop as a possibility in confirming town, I forgot, and I was off lunch near that last post. Sorry if some of you see it as scummy.

[auditor9006]

Raeil

1. auditor9006 - First you messed with tags, then you messed with poetry, and I'm not enjoying it at all. Poetry is nice, but needs to be easily spelled out to help the town in a Mafia game. I'm happy you've cleaned up the tags, but if I have to dig to understand what you're saying (who you're accusing and what you're evidence is) then it hurts the town's thought process. Hurting the town's thought process makes me suspicious of scum.

Question for you to answer: How do you think posting something that is hard to dig through will help the town?

As i have explained before
i do not think that my report
is difficult to comprehend.
Vis-a-vis and to that end

If you are paying close attention,
to what is written i will mention
that this encourages our players,
to take time and fully read the layers
of text that's written here and there,
instead of scrolling through the air
and simply writing out a post,
with less intelligence then most.

Further

To scrutinize the page my friends,
is more important then to pretend
that you cant read these simple posts.
So here's to you, a round of toasts.

"Hip hip hooray" for all to see,
ill not enjoy your misery.

In repose i feel that i must
come and call your attention thus:

I find it hard for you to question
everyone and their intentions.

The more that scum know helps us less,
and to ask who wants who dead is this;
both testy, dangerous and why?
because you seem like a night guy.

If mafia know who wants who,
they can direct attention, misguiding you.

Anticollie

Which is why Anticollie i continue thus.
I may be town though i remain nonplussed -
at your incessant hiss and boo,
to people that offended you.

And then you give out names and titles
to blackmail friendship in the aisles?
You've solid logic ill give you that
but to nothing else ill doff my cap.

Why admit to keeping track
of other players (behind their back)
when now they know of your intention
they can play for misdirection?

I appreciate your our IC
but frankly that doesn't bother me.
Because you missed out on what ric,
and onion did - and thats a trick
to say that if your simply blind.
Your only putting us behind.

that said your assertive enough to find
what other players come to mind.

So fair enough if you wont read this.
I guess its stuff you'll have to miss.

Cyren

You and i share our ideas
on Onions and his freindly fears,
(that is to say ric is too close)
and onion backs away to boast-
and claim that ric and he are not tied.
Between you and me i think he lied.

But we shall see who is more like scum.
Its between ric and obstinate onion.

[Haylen]

Haylen - After re-reading, I discovered that you have contributed a grand total of one meaningful post... stop lurking and start posting. While you have posted several times, the only post I found to have meaning was post 60, all the rest are either answers to questions about mechanics, or solving auditor's poems. Post more, or I'll vote you (I detest lurking)

Sorry everyone, recently had my hands full with 2 mini's, if you want proof of the go for it. I will definately start posting more content. Once again, I apologise.


I shall say it once again though, please stop being so obscure, Auditor, a guy in Newbie 770 (end gamed now) was lynched because he wouldn't stop writing in rhyme. Ultimatum: Quit the poems, the riddles and the codes and start posting in the same dialodge as the rest of us, or I will be voting for you. By now, you're intentionally preventing the town from gaining knowledge. That equals scummy in my books. (We must be glad that he does not have mod powers and re-write all our posts to his format)

I think Onion was scummy for wanting to put somebody at L-1 for entertainment purposes, so he's on my 'may be scum' list aswell.

Anticollie, I can't decide whether you're aggressiveness is a playstyle or could be considered you having something to hide?
Your point towards me in your post about everyone could be misinterpretted as such, care to clear that up?

I don't like that what Ric did with his bandwagon vote either, I think Auditor may be spot on when he said he panicked.

Raeil is giving off town vibes though, with his good questioning of other players. The same with Cyren, actually.

Sideney! Get your jacksie back in this game! You too, Echo! Although he did say he had exams.

In answer to your question, Raeil, I no longer do find Echo to be the scummiest, that was part of the random voting stage, since that is obviously over, I shall

unvote

[ric]

preemptory note: i have been reading and typing and chilling for way too long. sorry for the wall of text, i honestly didnt mean to get into it that far but thats what happens when you have an entire day off work. there are people that posted before me and yet, i think, wrote sections for me - ill get to you ASAP but not today. got things to do.

on a second note. i know im not setting the best example by my post below but if the civis could make a concerted effort to refrain from posting rampant walls of text, that would be great, thanks.

Ric - that sounds like you're defending and speaking for Onion. Makes you look suspicious? he knew what he was doing and sacrificing a town instead of putting some effort into scumhunting is rediculous to me. Does that happen a lot in mini/normal/theme games or whatever they're called?

im just being open about what i think. im saying this is what im experiencing from onion. it could just be this but i feel strongly about this. i feel like its only a problem to say something like that when there is a presumption of no-trust. it is my conviction that trust isnt such a bad trait after all in the same way that one cannot be 100% objective, we have to recognize and give subjectivity its proper place (or vice-versa)

just my two cents on trusting people and defending people. ill take anymore questions about my stance on onion if they are more pointed.

i have seen defending people used and have used it effectively in other games on and off this site (this being my 3rd where i didnt get insta-killed or the game didnt insta-end) and in live games. but i have to be honest ive modded more games than ive played and its a totally different experience and so basing theory off of merely watching other players is sweet but not that sweet.

so wait, neferenom - are you cyren? is that what post 89 is about? if this is the case please post with one name only. thanks. it cuts down on confusion on rereads and in the moment.

heres my take on auditor:

when he first did it i encouraged it because i thought he was communicating with somebody, specifically anticollie, through code because he bolded anticollies name which i assumed was like 'ok lets start this code thing now'. i didnt think the reverse slashes were a mistake, just a ploy to make the code less obvious or to layer the code. and so i encouraged it so that as soon as the auditor and whoever i thought his partner would be were talking to each other like this and saying things like 'vote this person' etc etc. i could post my analysis triumphantly the code seemed to be fluid at first too so i wanted to get a handle on it. im sorry if people feel like it was a mistake to keep my mouth shut but i couldnt resist the opportunity. after all, if auditor turned out to be mafia with a partner communicating through code, it wouldve been a sweet thing to catch it so early. i can post the analysis i put together if anybody is interested.

now im comfortable that it is just part of the riddling and method auditor is using. its not that this makes me uncomfortable with auditors role yet per se, just that i think its absolutely a terrible choice because ive already missed things in his posts apparently and its confusing and shields from scrutiny and it isnt to the point. its suspicious to me that auditor should basically lay down the position that hes going to do what hes going to do despite the citys wishes (its not like it is unreasonable request to ask to cut back) and if you cant deal then you cant deal, get out of the game.

however. upon reading anticollies color laden post, as much as the suspicion of code writing is belayed, it is still there to me. especially given the auditor bolding at the beginning of game. i just want to get on record that given the code suspicions i think its possibly anticollie and auditor are taking seemingly opposing stances on each other as a ruse but that i think it highly unlikely. if it was a ruse i feel like it could be an effective play to distance from each other early. again, i do think this unlikely at this point.

onion

heres why i think you are the most suspicious by far despite my 'read' on you. and why you deserve an

FOS: ONION

from me (not a vote because my read outweighs my suspicion at this point). im not sure that had somebody not quickly unvoted cyren that cyren would not still be here. raeil responded within twenty minutes (which, incidentally gives me a super clean read on raeil). admittedly i DIDNT ask the question of why you voted because A) i was interested in what you were studying and B) i just didnt notice it at first. i was mulling over what was going on in 790 because the topic was kind of focused on my play, my mafia partner was playing well and it was down to the wire. then cyren and others started to go after you similarly to how i wouldve so i dropped it from my own personal agenda, it wasnt imperative to mention at that point besides the idea that you were suspicious for the aformentioned reasons

heres the big one though, the key that cyren put under the mat after you laid out your reason for -1.

my intention was not to lynch Cyren, but to provide the scum a chance to point themselves out.

Putting me at L-1 to see if scum would hammer IS intention to Lynch

and while i do think tradeoffs happen and are somewhat acceptable, trading off day one page 3 makes no sense. there is not enough information out there and i agree with haylen that especially a new player could too easily walk into lynching someone. hell, ive seen players who know what theyre doing and who are civis lynch people just because theyre tired of arguing.

like i said, im still not voting you. and if you think calling you suspicious (like i was earlier) and agreeing with the person who was after you yet simultaneously vouching for my read on you is "allying" then so be it but i think evidence and character suggests otherwise. also, allying can work for good. just saying.

[Raeil]

auditor9006

After yet another read,
I feel I understand your posting need.
For poetry is the absolute best
To separate the skimmers from the rest.

Your lyric and rhyme keep up with the time,
and thus your intentions are clear.

When you keep it simple, you make several ripples,
and the eyes of the readers do tear.

---

Okay, that was fun. Upon actually reading, rather than skimming, auditor9006's posts, I see no reason for him to stop rhyming. Since page 3, his poems have been clear and direct, though they do require players to stop and read (which is actually a good thing).

Mod

: In light of auditor's previous posts, I'd like to ask that you continue withholding action against it, as you stated in your edit of post 91. Just wanted to voice my opinion, if that's acceptable.

Haylen, take a moment to just read the post right before yours (Anticollie, do the same). I don't have any problem understanding anything he's written. Actually, it seems quite clear, to me at least. If it gets out of hand, obviously he won't be able to continue, but at this point, the poetry is intelligent and written well, and also adds to discussion.

Speaking of discussion though...

The more that scum know helps us less

I think you need to explain your reasoning here, auditor. Yes, the more the scum know, the worse off we are, but the scum only know who townies are, and anything else they find out, we will also find out. So the more the scum know is also the more the town knows, which is a heck of a lot better for town than scum. Explain please.

[Vi]

Vote Count:

onion (2) ~ Anticollie, Cyren

Cyren (1) ~ onion
ric (1) ~ auditor9006
auditor9006 (1) ~ Echo

Echo (0) ~

Haylen

Not Voting:

Raeil, sideney, ric, Haylen
[size=0]Anticollie 0 PROD1 6 | auditor9006 0 | Cyren 1 | Echo 0 | Haylen 0 | onion 0 | Raeil 0 | ric 0 | sideney 1[/size]

---My job is to neutrally enforce site and game rules while being entertaining on the side (optional for some mods). Do not bring me into the game.
---I like the activity in this topic. Sadly, many Newbie games have multiple flakers, but I've only had to issue one prod in this game. Thank you all!
---With that said, don't start disappearing now.
---Also, Erdos numbers are for people who aren't going to get real jobs

--With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, July 4 2009.

[Anticollie]

I'll nip this in the ass now:

In regards to colour

I embolden/colour entire statements because I write a lot. I understand that we tend to gaze over walls of text. The employment of colour in text is nothing discordant- just something to keep the eyes fresh and aware of where I make points.

To see proof, simply compare myself with Auditor. He is clearly makeing a puzzle with his, whilst mine, when compiled, add only up to the points I have already been making.

Further suspicion

It has been requested that I display further suspicion of my fellow town-mates. To this end, I find Haylen picking up as number two on my list. I state this only in regard to her reactions to my last post.

Refusing the see the poison and danger of WIFOM is assuredly deserving of a second look.

I will be mostly unavailable tomorrow. Museam is closing its exhibit- and I want to get a look.

[sideney]

Same long consideration:

ric quickly unvote Cyren, than Fos orion, don't seems like distancing?

I lied, not long but short.

Vote Orion

Who? ~Vi

[Vi]

In response to a topic in Mafia Discussion, I have altered Day Rule 2 and THINGS YOU SHOULD NOT DO Rule 6 and added Rule 7 and Rule 8.
Not that I've had problems with any of them here, though.

[Echo]

Firstly, I take back what I said about skimming. I have found some time to thoroughly read all the posts so far and have come across some interesting points.

The first section is mainly in response to Anticollie and Raeil.

Main suspect

auditor

Auditor has been posting in verse since the beginning of the game, and has tried to install a game within a game by adding riddles to his poetry. This seems to me like a move to try to distract the town. However, he did at least stop this aspect of his posting.

In (104) auditor claims that his posts encourages proper reading of each post. This is true to a certain extent. However, what bothers me is that he claims his posts are easy to read. This, to me, is like saying Shakespeare is easy to read - which is true, but there are so many

possible

layers of understanding because of the nature of poetry (speaking through similies, which auditor says he does (65, 82) and actually does do), anything that could sound scummy can be explained off as poetic license. Therefore, I believe it will be almost impossible to catch auditor in a lie if he keeps up his poetry. The only people who need to avoid being caught in a lie are scum, so I don't see the need for this level of indirection if auditor is townie.

Auditor also claims in the same post that "the more that scum know helps us less". Raeil also picked up on this, and I have to agree with him. Knowledge is, as far as I know, the basis for a townie win, and preventing the spread of knowledge severely limits the ability of townies to find scum. The only way to undeniably catch scum is to catch them in a lie.

The final point is the buddying up with Cyren in his last verse.

Why did you feel the need to do this?

While the majority of these points were picked from his post above, the main point (paragraph 2) holds for all his posts and is my main concern. This is the basis for my suspicion of him.

One other thing is when auditor bolded Anticollie and FOS'd Onion with no reason in post (49). This in itself is a little suspicious, but what struck me as odd is when he claims to "know what he was doing" and that he never intended it to be a vote (55) when the mod rejected it as a vote (51). To me, that post was definitely an intention to put a vote on Anticollie.

What was the reason for bolding on Anticollie? What future reference are you referring to?

Other thoughts

Onion

Onion has about the same level of suspicion as auditor from me. He goes from:

anyone who hammers would be scum

to

only scum or townies who are stupidly anti-town would hammer

and finally settles on

either Cyren is scum and/or whoever hammed is scum

(53, 75, 101)
In other words, initially, only scum would hammer. Then, perhaps stupid townies would hammer. Finally, either scum hammered

or Cyren is scum

suggesting that

whoever hammered might have been a normal townie after all.

Why are you so indecisive about the nature of the person who might have hammered?

ric

The first time ric made me suspicious was when he immediately released his vote on Cyren (79) when sideney applied a minute amount of pressure. To me, keeping the vote was not scummy at all. Cyren was only on L-3, so there was no danger of a quicklynch, and it feels perfectly natural to retain a random vote until you have a better idea on who to vote for.

ric also goes from defending Onion (58), to agreeing with the case against Onion (61), to again blatantly defending Onion (85), but finally claiming Onion is the "most suspicious by far" and giving him the FOS sticker (106).

Why are you changing your mind so often?

sideney

Sideney hasn't made a post that lasts longer than a few sentences yet. While the reason for his vote (110) is somewhat valid, the lack of detail is a little suspicious, and

I would personally prefer to see some references.

Haylen

To me, Haylen hasn't posted much original or new opinion, even with the latest vote. She reiterated the major suspect, Onion, but did not bring any fresh evidence for her position against him. Likewise, she simply reiterated auditor's view that ric panicked when he unvoted Cyren (105).

I don't mean to say that everyone

must

come up with new points during discussion, but Haylen hasn't brought any new opinions into the current situation. Furthermore, both Onion and ric had made new posts by the time you posted (101, 106 respectively). This is potentially scummy in my opinion because I feel scum would find it much harder to focus and find evidence against innocent people, and therefore need to resort to quoting others.

Do you have any original opinions or new evidence against people that you can share?

Anticollie, Cyren, Raeil

I don't see much evidence against you three, or any need for criticism. Your posts are logically sound and have convinced me, at least for now, that you are all protown.

As a side note, like Anticollie, I also prefer to have nicely set out posts when they are fairly long. It makes reading much easier when the layout is fresh.

Oh, and @anticollie I just use good ol' humble notepad for my note keeping

[sideney]

Oh, sorry.

Unvote

Vote onion

[Haylen]

Do you have any original opinions or new evidence against people that you can share?

I find things difficult at the beginning of games, you see, I'm a Meta Queen, meaning I read as many games as possible from the players in the game to check out their game technique as scum and town ect and similarities with the game they're in with me. But it has recently been drawn to my attention that meta-ing is inappropriate in Newbie games so I must refrain from doing it. Trouble is, because we usually have very little information Day One, this is where I tend to get the majority of my info from.

Haylen, take a moment to just read the post right before yours (Anticollie, do the same). I don't have any problem understanding anything he's written. Actually, it seems quite clear, to me at least.

I know, I just fear I will need to write an interpretation everytime Auditor makes a post just in case my interpretation is wrong.

Refusing the see the poison and danger of WIFOM is assuredly deserving of a second look.

I'm gathering this is why people keep whining at me about it in my other games. Can you please clear up why it is a bad thing? It hasn't been explained to me and the wiki didn't help in explaining why it's bad for the town either

I have no other opinions at the moment, however, I will go back and do a full game re-read (and most likely be disgusted at my out post content)

[onion]

Echo, you quote me out of context, how scummy of you. 075 is stated as a refinement from my previous statement, while 101 is a much more generalized statement taking into account all possible alignment flips. are you having trouble with the inclusive Or in that statement? i solidify my position because other players want to know it, and i stand by my statement that if someone hammered, Cyran and/or the hammerer is scum.

i'm glad that people are accepting Auditor's poetry as being not the worst-thing-ever. i don't agree with him, however, that providing more information is bad because the scum can use it. given a no-information situation, where the town lynch randomly, the town will loose most of the time. the only weapon the town has is information, and so it stands to reason that 'more information is always good.' which brings us to Haylen and WIFOM.

because more information is always good, Haylen wandering the dark alleyways of WIFOM can't be bad because it lets us in on her train of thought. at best it will be useful, and at worst it is of no importance, and so it can't be 'dangerous'.

Cyren's lurking, here's something for her.

Putting me at L-1 to see if scum would hammer IS intention to Lynch.... No matter how you phrase it you were not just sacrificing town but information as well. Like I said to Haylen willingly lynching a town instead of someone you actually THINK might be scum is really bad to me.

you incriminate me under the assumption that i think you are town? yet i clearly stated my suspicion of you only 2 posts earlier.

Anticollie - hate of WIFOM qualifies as restricting the flow of information. suspicion on you!
Auditor - i disagree with your statement because it is essential for the town to know more.
Cyren - crossvoting, lurking.
Echo -
Haylen - feels like an IC.
Raeil - crossvoting.
Ric - Echo has it about right.
Sideney - how about some content some time?

Signed, Orion Who.

[auditor9006]

auditor9006

After yet another read,
I feel I understand your posting need.
For poetry is the absolute best
To separate the skimmers from the rest.

Your lyric and rhyme keep up with the time,
and thus your intentions are clear.

When you keep it simple, you make several ripples,
and the eyes of the readers do tear.

Raeil

Nice to see a piece of verse,
that keeps up with simple plain tone.

Sadly i may but drive the hearse
and so i will but end this throne.

The more that scum know helps us less

I think you need to explain your reasoning here, auditor. Yes, the more the scum know, the worse off we are, but the scum only know who townies are, and anything else they find out, we will also find out. So the more the scum know is also the more the town knows, which is a heck of a lot better for town than scum. Explain please.

Because your all complaining and it takes quite a while to think up this stuff i will intermittently stop. That way i can explain stuff and you can "get a read" on me but then i will go back to the fun of verse. I enjoy it. So the poetry will continue but i will justify myself in prose, that way you get a bit of both worlds.

The original broken coding

was

an attempt at communicating with anyone who would be able to understand it. It proved too hard and resulted in being an add on to the verse to help explain what i was saying.

Anticollie's "vote" was not. I was trying to get his attention because he was IC and he had already stated that "- I'm highly quantative. I'll take notes and data feverishly. if you ever need to know something about "who said this and when." I'll have that available. 9That said, I do not expose notes until post-game, and even then, only if asked"(6)

I was hoping that my next few posts would grab his attention and he would "analyze" and work out what i was trying to say. Sadly he had no interest in this.

Echo

Firstly, Cyren and i appear to share similar views. I see ric's move as initial buddying, then when onion "pushed" him away by saying that there was no connection this felt like panic on both sides.

ric then changes his standpoint to
"heres why i think you are the most suspicious by far despite my 'read' on you"

having supported and defended onion the whole way through the first 4 pages. Not only is this a complete double take, the whole time Cyren is accusing pretty much the same thing as i am seeing and the best response from onion and ric is to either change tac and say that Cyren is scum, which is very OMGUS or to then attack each other. (on ric's side).

Everyone

When i say "the more that scum know helps us less" i literally mean that. The scum start off with the advantage of knowing who they are. any info that we share gives them a better edge. If a doctor role claims, scum will be able to know if he is telling the truth or not far easier then we will.(I know that this is a very black and white example but i hope you get what i am saying)

Yes, more information gives us a clearer picture of the environment we are in, but on the first day i prefer to judge off of people's mistakes they make while posting, then to any actual rolefishing which was what we had at the beginning of the game. Anticollie's posts were well layered but to ask who you would vote for in a pressure situation to Raeli is very scummy to me. If the scum can follow vote lines then it is much easier for them to stealth-bandwagon and curtail opinion round to the wrong side.

The rest of his questioning at (99) was solid, as i backed up in the verse:

"You've solid logic ill give you that
but to nothing else ill doff my cap."

Regardless what this "outbreak" came down to was one person:

Onion

For such a suspicious move right at the start of the game, and then your subsequent (either) bad plays or scummy moves following, why would you back up verse that everyone else (mostly) is disagreeing with? This is what has caused me to stop with it for the moment. Because if someone who i think is scum is appreciating it, im sure as hell going to stop.

I still don't think verse is adverse for town - you can pick apart what is written just as much as you could probably pick this apart to say "oh, hes scum" but either way if your a good enough wordsmith you can defend yourself. Its also quite a nice little tool to get guide lines for meta gaming in a new environment, as well as night lynch of off key players is far more telling then simply lynching a townie who either says very little or doesn't get heavily involved in discussions.

Regardless Onion has halted me for the time being. My vote however still remains on Ric. The reason being ric i believe is acting far more suspicious overall, and onion could simply be a new player making new mistakes (after all that what most of us are). However Ric is SE. He is STILL acting as scummy, if not more then Onion. I dont give him the benefit of the doubt in this case. And so i stick with what i have.

[Anticollie]

Anticollie's posts were well layered but to ask who you would vote for in a pressure situation to Raeli is very scummy to me. If the scum can follow vote lines then it is much easier for them to stealth-bandwagon and curtail opinion round to the wrong side.

retort

Sort of. Not really and kind of at the same time.

Yes, it is beneficial to Scum to understand wherefore suspcitions may lie- however to claim that it is only beneficial to them (which, notedly, you did not do) is incorrect.

Let me provide a list of items that entered my head before requesting such data:

• keeps player involved.
• keeps player contemplative.
• Ensures that all relevant data is out and in the open. This is necessary so that propler decisions may be made by fellow town members.
• The only data that sticks around is game-changing data. All else is lost to the great Metapool in the sky. Therefore, the request for data that is irrelevant from one player- assuming great schisms do not occur, is in the best of cases: helpful. But usually, a null tell and an attempt to keep people talking.

---

WIFOM

I have been asked to define and expound why WIFOM is a negative subject.

All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead."
"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's?"

The quote above birthed the term and forced a psychological "game" of sorts to be played. In short: it

enforces recursive reasoning by making players decide which of two (or more, I suppose) solutions is the decision an opponant or supposed opponant shall make.

Mind tricks are looked upon as

naughty

in mafia- although they prove quite useful,

if sucessful.

Town members can employ deception to lure scum out of hiding, or to give false information that can then be picked apart to force a legitimate lynch.

Actual online mafia is a complex game that requires thoughtful prose

.

If mind games can be good, if one is not called out on it, why, then, is WIFOM looked upon so poorly?

This is due to a simple fact: WIFOM is not simply a psychological trick that one may employ:

it is a game altering tactic that derrives from the game's actual purpose.

Think back to

The princess Bride

. How long did it take to decide which poison the villain would drink?

It was not a simple decision.

Furthermore, the necessity to spend so many thought proccesses on one WIFOM question tends to

distract from the actual gameplay.

Therefore, it is a decent tool used by the Mafia to force schisms in agreement (as differential logic will lead to differential conclusions, and logic in WIFOM is based purely upon semantics). it is also a decent tool employed by mafia because they can, with greater sucess, hide facts that may be hiding in plain sight as players are busy elsewhere.

(I trust, and hope, now that this statement is in the open that I will not be the only person pointing out WIFOM)

Pardon the wall of text. I shall summarize here: WIFOM is bad, because it has had few sucess stories for the Town, is a deliberate (or at times a simple mistake) attempt to decieve in the open, and focuses on one specific fact, observation, or thought too long to be of any actual use to the town.

Anything that focuses an investigation can shatter the chances for success- and WIFOM is paramount to accomplishing such a Scummy goal.

---

Anticollie - hate of WIFOM qualifies as restricting the flow of information.

retort

After my previous explanation of WIFOM and its poisons, I find the following quote unnecessary of legnthy retort.

To put it pointedly, my desire to eliminate WIFOM in our game is anything but an attemot to stifle the flow of data in-game. Frankly, it does the precise opposite.

WIFOM confuses, corrupts, and distracts. none of these three things is desireable in an unfettered thinktank. Therefore, your opinions are understood- no one wants to see a townie asked by another to halt their speech (even if it may be deceptive). But not ALL speech is good speech (if we are discussing soley on merits of data. Now WIFOM can be a load of data... but it is recursive data... and makes the speaker look poorly, therefore).

---

Anticollie's "vote" was not. I was trying to get his attention because he was IC and he had already stated that "- I'm highly quantative. I'll take notes and data feverishly. if you ever need to know something about "who said this and when." I'll have that available. 9That said, I do not expose notes until post-game, and even then, only if asked"(6)

I was hoping that my next few posts would grab his attention and he would "analyze" and work out what i was trying to say. Sadly he had no interest in this.

response

Sorry. Coded messages are anything but helpful. One must be forthright in all that they do as a townsperson- or risk being labeled as decepetive. I shall not play into anyone's hand by holding them up for a meta such as "leaves messages in poetry."

if a message is too important not to leave out, than it should be stated publicly and clearly.

If a message isn't important enough to leave in plain text- it isn't worth saying.

mafia is a community game- unless you are a member of a third party (ie: mason, mafia, etc), then you have no excuse trying to convey data to only specific players- in fact, in a perfect world, such actions would have dire implications. However, MS.net respects almost all metas... and for that reason it simply reminds you that doing so is "against the spirit of the game."

@ Auditor

One final note; echos questions to you are pretty much dead-on my thoughts of your play style, as well. I know you like poetry and all that jazz, but you need to be careful- I will accept no response from you like "Oh you simply mis-read my post!"

In poetry the reader takes away what he can, as that is the purpose of poetry. While we may have no problem understanding you now, if one poem is poorly writ, or makes less-than-perfect sense: expect shit storms that you may have to wade through.

And wading through shit storms doesn't really make one look pro-town unless done with powerful finesse.

[ric]

wow. this game moves. its a refreshingly quick pace.

wall of text (i think/hope my last for now). prepare yourself.

so people are worried about my unvote but i gotta be honest i dont see why its suspicious. i didnt do it out of feeling pressure i did it out of understanding that people were rattled by the onion incident and i didnt see the harm of either keeping my vote on or unvoting but somebody did and i saw their point of view and do think its legitimate (i used to think that way as a hold over from live games - vote claims during live discussion can be nerve wracking) and so i did it. the point of view that seemed to be implicitly expressed by sideney was this: voting is important, especially after what just happened, dont treat votes like candy. this makes sense. i dont see how this adds up to panic especially how i remarked that there was no need - because there isnt/wasnt. panic to me would look like 'oh my god youre right i love cyren - unvote' or something like that yall feel me?

and then theres this bit that some of you have brought up in such a way that i guess i havent been being clear about my position on onion, echo, sydeney and i think others are asking about this. duke strikes me as clean

despite my suspicions

. ive never changed my grey position.

yes it seems a bit off that onion did that, actually pretty off

i do think youre a bit suspicious. can you explain your position more on raeil and cyren or is this just a 'hunch and shake information loose' vote?

the reason why my suspicion has grown should be obvious. because hes making terrible points/arguments (some good ones though).

for example. in post 83 he says this

A)he voted for Cyren (023)...B)(indicating that it is either a random vote with no value or a scum vote)...C)so what i get from this is that he is trying to act town. both sides try to act town though, so it is hard (not sqeezey) to to tell the difference.

A) ive already explained this as a vote to move the game
B) ok
C) so, especially given B (and A), ric cyren and raeil are especially suspicious because they COULD be mafia because onion cant know for sure that they cant be "acting town" (an idea that has its own special problems) or that they could actually be civilians/goodies. and this applies to them and no one else.

Ric defends me against Cyren (058) and generally attacks him

i think youre saying this because sideney said this and you need help right now. explain how asking for clarity from cyren is attacking cyren. i understand why it could be, in theory, but explain why what i did was attacking cyren. (i touch on this when i address sideney below)

Echo, you quote me out of context, how scummy of you.

i dont know whether or not onion noticed that echos position on onion actually make sense or whether he was trying to paint it as not making sense as a sort of OMGUS move. according to the quotes, onions belief about he was doing were inconsistent. but the kicker is that echo (albeit aggressively) asks for clarification "Why are you so indecisive about the nature of the person who might have hammered?" and then onion goes 'only mob people do what you do'

Cyren's lurking, here's something for her....

Putting me at L-1 to see if scum would hammer IS intention to Lynch.... No matter how you phrase it you were not just sacrificing town but information as well. Like I said to Haylen willingly lynching a town instead of someone you actually THINK might be scum is really bad to me.

you incriminate me under the assumption that i think you are town? yet i clearly stated my suspicion of you only 2 posts earlier

if i remember correctly she says this because you seemed to hold an inconsistent position (if i remember correctly) and because it seems pretty fucked up that you would be so cavalier about your supposed, weak suspicion towards cyren and raeil to trade THIS early in game (despite the flaws of new players, even accepting your own postured response to anticollie (i think) regarding the supposed unliklihood of that happening and then still maintain that cyren is suspicious basically because shes heavily suspicious of you. and did it ever cross your mind that cyren actually isnt around and not just lurking?(sorry if the sequencing of this last bit sounds odd, the pieces are all there)

this is poisonous play and its very very understandable how onion could warrant a vote. and, for the record, im not holding that against anybody. hes #1 on my list aswell but i happen to honestly think hes just a philosophy prick trying to spit mad game and falling flat on his face and that is why i have not voted him.

sideney

i wish you were a little more involved. you seem to be laying low in a pretty big way. and that makes me nervous. can you say a little more about the rolefishing for echo and more about your vote on onion please?

i feel like sideney is acting second most suspiciously and heres why. pops in. writes 15 words pops out. do you live in italy are you just visiting? im a huge florence freak myself and i could understand why you could be distracted but i just think popping in and out with little explanation is bad news for the town, no?

and to answer this "quickly unvotes cyren then fos onion" being a "distancing" move - i dont get that particular line of thought and how it makes sense that the two events are connected, especially after i unvoted because i thought you were uncomfortable. please explain it to me.

one more reason why youre suspicious to me is because you said this:

and why ric is trying hard to make Cyren look scum?

and then i asked you where that was coming from and you said nothing. and then....all that stuff i said before. its like coming in and kind of attacking and then not explaining isnt actually helping to get to the bottom of whos sweet and whos not

regarding auditor:

oh yeah i had one more thing to say about auditor that i typed out on .txt file right after my last post.

posting up in poetry gives you impunity in one of two key areas. the first area is that players are able to understand and attack position and the second being that players are able to understand and attack the language that one posits their position with. language is important and you (auditor) basically get a virtual pass because poetry is meant to decieve, its meant to hint and faint and its meant to embellish. and this is too much flexibility to A) accomplish something concrete and B) not remain far too dangerous to trust on almost any level

auditor has already said that i have missed stuff in his posts and haylen has said that she is worried about it. i disagree with the stance raeil has taken about auditors poetry for said reasons.

haylen

what do you think about onion?

anticollie

what do you think about sideney?

auditor

what do you think about echo?

in sum, as an endpiece to this monstrous post

raeil seems incredibly goody especially given the unvote when onion went -1 - goody
im glad haylen is more active - medium
i wish echo well on tests but want a little more activity - medium
cyren seems mostly fine to me, maybe a little aggressive for my tastes but a bang smash job - mostly goody
anticollie seems reasonable, if a little uninvolved (mostly in the first few pages) - medium goodie

[Echo]

Echo, you quote me out of context, how scummy of you. 075 is stated as a refinement from my previous statement, while 101 is a much more generalized statement taking into account all possible alignment flips. are you having trouble with the inclusive Or in that statement? i solidify my position because other players want to know it, and i stand by my statement that if someone hammered, Cyran and/or the hammerer is scum.

(115)
I don't think I was quoting out of context? The "refinement" and progressive "generalisation" of your position is exactly what I'm getting at. The posts are taken in chronological order, and the two posts in between (75) and (101) are not regarding the case at point.

---

when someone is at L-1 on the first day, no townie would hammer, which means that

anyone who hammers would be scum

.

(53)
This is the only sentence in the whole post that deals with the topic at hand. At this point, you are

completely sure

that anyone who hammered would be scum.

i was concerned that

someone else (scum/otherwise) would quickly hammer

and argue that they were writing while i posted, which would have been a great move for scum or a catastrophe for town, and i'm glad that didn't happen. i would not believe someone saying they mis-counted because our mod announced it, and i expect most of us can count to 5. thus i suppose i should

refine my argument

to '

only scum or townies who are stupidly anti-town would hammer

.' doesn't sound quite as good though.

(75)
Under pressure from others to explain your action, you've diluted ("refined") your assumption to include stupid townies.

it seems like an acceptable practice because if a trade will prevent lynch-or-loose day 3. remember that i'm not voting for a confirmed townie here. she has a chance of being scum only a sqeezey bit higher than anyone else.

so if someone hammered, either Cyren is scum and/or whoever hammed is scum.

either way, we get at least 1 scum in the first 2 days. that seems acceptable.

(101)
And finally, when Anticollie asked to to state your position clearly, you "generalise" even further to include Cyren as scum.

Now, if you "stand by my statement that if someone hammered, Cyran and/

or

the hammerer is scum" (115), why were you so sure back in (53) that the "anyone who hammers would be scum"?

If

Cyren is indeed scum (this is assuming one of the "or" possibilities, and I am certainly not suggesting she is), I highly doubt her scumbuddy would hammer that early in the game, which means your generalised statement in (115) is a clear contradiction of your statement back in (53).

In short:

053: anyone who hammers would be scum
115: either Cyren

or

the hammerer is scum, meaning the person who hammered might not be scum after all

Until you explain how you can generalise to a degree where your general statement contradicts with your more specific statement, I think my point stands.

Unvote

[auditor9006]

Anticollie

Quick response before i go to bed.

I agree that it is beneficial to both sides when gathering information. I disagree that "The only data that sticks around is game-changing data. All else is lost to the great Metapool in the sky. Therefore, the request for data that is irrelevant from one player- assuming great schisms do not occur, is in the best of cases: helpful. But usually, a null tell and an attempt to keep people talking."

This is because in previous games i have played outside of this site many players kept a vote and track log of who votes/fos/attacks or protects who. While this massively helps town out to know what people are doing, when the mafia are able to get a free read on individuals any good scum player will be able to swing this information to severely misdirect and confuse town. It gets worse, in that because town are recording all logs, any deception on the mafia's part means that the data becomes rapidly irrelevant.

However as you state it can become a null tell if it is not actually used in game and is just a statement of opinion. So again, in response a yes and no to what you say but i do respect where you are going with it - i think it comes down to different mindsets.

With regards to verse (i HATE calling things like this poetry, its not because it only has a constructive sense within game. It has no outside aesthetic.) I don't think i have ever just said "oh you just misread" at any point, but feel free to correct me and i will explain myself at any time.

I also can understand why you would throw a shitstorm up against verse that was less then constructive, but so far i feel it has kept the pace of the game up and actually brought about some productive discussion outside of simply "stop/keep posting 'poetry'"

I appreciate your trying to keep things constructive and its good to pursue questions, im just wary of the more specific moves - after all i dislike role fishing or any other scummy styles of play. (Though i admit that verse seems to sort of be in the same area, i find it can be much more pro town then negative.)


Thats good enough for now - if i notice something else tomorrow i will address it then.

[Vi]

Vote Count:

onion (3) ~ Anticollie, Cyren, sideney

Cyren (1) ~ onion
ric (1) ~ auditor9006

auditor9006 (0) ~

Echo

Not Voting:

Raeil,

sideney,

ric, Haylen, Echo
[size=0]Anticollie 0 PROD1 7 | auditor9006 0 | Cyren 2 | Echo 0 | Haylen 0 | onion 0 | Raeil 1 | ric 0 | sideney 0[/size]

--With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, July 4 2009.

[Cyren]

To Anticollie -

About Ric, it wasn't his questioning me that made me think he was defending Onion, it was the, "I think as a philosopher Onion was doing this scummy thing because...." It was the putting himself in Onion's position and then assuming what he was doing. Keeping that to himself (ric) wouldn't bother me I've had the same thoughts, but he was technically speaking on ONion's behalf and defending him, or feading him a defense maybe?

You "See a lot of leads coming out from me" ? That sounds a bit scummy to me. *mental note added*

Aside from that the "follow up" is my downfall I suppose. I need to work on the back and forth banter. I know there are at least two liars however I don't assume they're all liars since 7 are not. I am still highly suspicious of everyone though.

Also what is HRH?

so if someone hammered, either Cyren is scum and/or whoever hammed is scum. either way, we get at least 1 scum in the first 2 days. that seems acceptable.

again no, most of us have already stated that a townie would hammer and just randomly picking someone to vote off is a HIGHLY slim chance of lynching scum. I've also heard from other ICs that townies are more likely to hammer.

How do you know someone town could have a similar theory and lynch me just to say that you were scum for putting me in the position to be lynched and to start the Day with more information. Remember some people come from games on sites where they start at night. (I don't know if that happens here too or not)

Raeil -

Question for you to answer: You've been mostly focused on Onion and ric. While I understand you are trying to fish out scum, how would your attack change if one of them were confirmed town? (through either NK or lynch)

I have been mostly focused on Onion/Ric but I have commented to others such as Anticollie/Haylen and commented about Sideney, and have had somewhat conversations with Auditor? Echo doesn't give much to respond to...

Anyway as for your question I find that QUITE scummy. Asking how my attack would change if my targets were NKed or lynched? I have to admit I ALMOST answered that and realized Mafia would have fun with that knowledge. They would automatically know which way to force my opinions and play out the game. You just crossed a serious town boundry line to me. A red alert so to speak...

... I

think

Auditor agrees with me?

All I will say is that I am constantly worried about mislynching a town or worse a PR in any situation but if it happens it is because of their bad play, not entirely my fault. *blunt truth* And NKs are meant to mess with your mind, so why bother dwelling on them?

Ric, what is wrong with rampant walls of texts as long as it is relevant scum-hunting? Also see my abvove to why I still find you scummy. Despite the first three paragraphs of your post towards me. Speaking for someone else is just scummy. Period. The Neff post was an accident.

With what you say on Onion, I've seen many town or ICs lynch themselves in games as well. No info gained.

Echo - While I largely agree with most things you have posted I would like to state here that I am becomming very nervous of all these player set ups.. Everyone stating who they think is town is BAD and again gives scum motive of who to kill.

sideney

REALLY? You're not going to respond to ANYTHING that has to do with you or ANY of the questions asked of you?

Back to Onion....

Lurking? Really? You're trying THAT? Another weak point. First of all during the week I can't post EVERY day as I have but 5-6 hours of free time and I have a small life outside of work and this computer. I also share a computer but that has little to do with it unless it isn't given back to me. I am currently not using my own computer btw so spelling/grammar REALLY doesn't count. When I commented on you being gone for almost three days I nearly meant I didn't want you to be replaced, I wasn't calling you a lurker.

you incriminate me under the assumption that i think you are town? yet i clearly stated my suspicion of you only 2 posts earlier.

No I incriminate you on the basis you would have done that regardless if I were town or scum. Also as stated above the chance of latching on a quicklynch on scum is SLIM unless you are infact the scum partner and you know you're busing your partner.

(Lol Orion who)

I am stopping at Ric's post of 118

I skimmed through the rest but won't be able to continue this anymore tonight... I bolded that so you guys know where I stopped reading (since I read and post as I go along) and so I'll know when I return most likely after tomorrow since Transformers comes out. I will be watching that after work and have been told its two 1/2 hours. So you don't think I'm lurking, *cough* Onion *cough*

I really find it interesting he is trying so hard to build a case agaisnt me specifically (with really weak points) even though he barely mentions Raeil who he says he find sus as well. Are you really trying Onion?

Just some food for thought and a reminder for myself.

[Raeil]

While I don't have time to post a huge amount (which I am sorry for, because I actually enjoy reading and writing walls of text), I was merely varying my questioning, Cyren. I noticed about halfway through my post that I was merely asking "Who do you find most suspicious and why?" I realized that the problem with this question was that most of the active posters have already made this abundantly clear, so I changed the questions based on how much content had been posted. For you, it's obvious that you are mainly focused on Onion/ric, so I wanted a second opinion from you just to ensure that we keep perspective. We still have a week and a half, so we as a town must maintain all possibilities until an egregious mistake or until much closer to deadline.

Good job on catching the question, but keep looking, your Mafia member is in another castle...

[ric]

cyren and raeil

heres the problem with walls of text (and then ill use these points to explain why too much aggressiveness can grow to be a problem):

walls of text consume much time and energy. not only to read (and write) but to respond to. this has implications for whether or not people feel up to playing the game and how much useful investigating can be really be done. after all - dialogue (not monologue) drives the game forward. im not ripping down the power of a well put together case and sometimes it seems there is no other choice but to make a long case and thats fine. but im just saying it can be counterproductive or at least grind things to a halt like throwing a big rock in the water. a few humonguous posts and people sometimes just stop playing or people just dont read them because its a game and they may see it as a waste of time/energy.

walls of text also set the agenda because when people are talking to you you respond. well in a wall of text theres probably going to be a lot to respond to. and when people boil down points made in walls of text there is a high chance of misrepresentation etc which creates its own sets of problems aside. so what youre doing when you post in huge walls of text is that you set the agenda which can be fine but can also backfire for other investigations because it systemically forces people to deal with only/mostly what walls of text are bringing to the table.

same thing with aggressiveness. if gone overboard it sets a kind of....selfish agenda that can be counterproductive in dialogue. imagine that you think person x is really super guilty. and so of course you pursue that to the ends of the earth. well because youre pursuing it other people will probably catch on (especially if youre succeeding in making somebody look guilty) and so maybe that person just sucks at defending themselves. and so then people are like 'ok chill we should back off and pursue other things' its tough to do and doesnt happen because the last 6 pages have been people talking about this one thing. and so either the aggressor gets lynched for 'seeming too aggressive to be civi' (which can be a bit shortsighted in my opinion) or somebody gets lynched because they look guilty, and that might not have anything to do with actual mob ties (which is dumb). and maybe your aggressiveness played too much part in the politics of voting, maybe you had really shitty reasons etc but such a great attack that either no one could point out how wrong you were without risking their neck by your aggression or maybe no one realizes when an aggressive player is going over the line or is just stylishly wrong

ive seen rational civilian people vote for other people because of their huge posts and aggressiveness and ive seen people get voted out real quick because of it. now thats not a threat as some people may try to twist that last sentence into, im saying this is wisdom thats coming from hard results and mistakes.

anyway, thats my reasoning for why one should try to reduce walls of text and mitigate aggressiveness. im not saying either are always bad. just that one should be aware of how theyre affecting the game. there are certainly times to be aggressive but there are also times to cool the fuck out.

id also like to comment on the 'dont vouch for people EVER' position you have, cyren. if youre a results based person, which it seems like you may be, then i have seen people vouch for others completely in the dark with excellent results and have done it myself. not only that but

by sharing such information as to who we think is guilty OR innocent and why, we move forward in our collective objective.

after all, we all do kind of do this privately anyway. making it public is perhaps risky but i have enough conviction in my read to not vote onion despite how incredibly suspicious i feel towards him and of course i want to make this public because i do feel strongly about it. one thing honesty does is it leaves you naked. if im wrong that sucks for me but i would hope that the city has a strong enough sense of justice to proceed correctly, and if i have to die by town edict if onion gets lynched and turns up mafia then that sucks for me but would i make the same choice to vouch in another game? yeah probably if i believed this strongly.

i

almost

feel that strongly for raeil because of his onion -1 action. i feel real strongly for onion at this point because i have a personal experience to help inform me. and, to sort of precounter an objection you may have: if you want a mini-lesson on subjectivity vs objectivity and why both deserve a place, i can post it or pm it to you (if its legal) but not here in this post. its already long enough.

oh yeah id be remiss if i didnt mention the contents of this post as another reason to persuade auditor to entirely stop posting in *verse* - its time and energy consuming and is too dangerous to trust etc etc (like i said before in my last post)