DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[shaft.ed]

God this game mechanic is painful.

RW for the love of God could you PLEASE not quote entire walls of text to reply with one line. PLEASE!@!!

Yos

You're grandstanding that all this resistance to your RW case indicates he's being protected by scum buddies. Yet many game players haven't posted since your case. Furthermore, the problem people have with your RW case is not the case itself it's your apparenty hypocrisy. You state that it's imperative that town lynch 2-3 times this action phase, list PtA as your second suspect, state you'd be happy with his lynch, but derail the wagon on PtA to push your RW case. This is clearly a logical inconsistency. Also most of your RW case surrounds the A&B vote shenanigans. I'd be amazed if you don't recall RW's voting on your wagon in Alpha.

Orto

Your back and forth with Yos is stifling game conversation. While I feel your points are valid, you're sidetracking discussion which is antitown. I also don't like that you feel the need to reply to every single point against you. Do you still find PtA most likely scum? If so is Yos a likely buddy or a misguided townie?

PtA

You're still tunneling. Tunneling is not a PtA town tell.

RW

For the love of God...see above. I'm getting a townish read off of RW for what it matters.

J-Scope

Thanks for sharing the tidbit about falsifying logs. This is townie points for J-Scope. Although if scum, he might just not feel like being bothered to create fake logs However, what do you like about Trotsky's Zaphod case? There's nothing there.

Zaph

I obviously agree with your point against Yos, but what about the rest of the game. More input please.

Ojando

Ojando is feeling off to me. I can't put a finger on it, need more content.

Frog Dodging

I find it amusing that you make a case against Zmd for being out in their own little world by focusing on Trotsky. Yet you don't notice that his target Trotsky is doing the same exact thing barely playing the game and trying to push a case on Zaphod. In your experience do you think it more or less likely scum-Zmd would be pushing a pointless case on a a scumpartner? That said I do feel Zmd needs some pressure and I like your posting overall.

Trotsky

Your answer to my querry is lacking.

the vig claim would obviously be stupid as mafia, it was from zaphod's initial ignorance of the a+b wagon that we suspected her, and the sudden switch and hard push on it implied hard bussing--which we would expect dgbscum to do in such a case.

This still doesn't address why you would then ask A&B to kill Zaphod. At that point in time you knew A&B was very unlikely mafia, you just admitted as such.

If you don't see you're name in bold tags here you aren't posting enough. Get off your ass and post.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

God this game mechanic is painful.

RW for the love of God could you PLEASE not quote entire walls of text to reply with one line. PLEASE!@!!

Yos

You're grandstanding that all this resistance to your RW case indicates he's being protected by scum buddies. Yet many game players haven't posted since your case. Furthermore, the problem people have with your RW case is not the case itself it's your apparenty hypocrisy. You state that it's imperative that town lynch 2-3 times this action phase, list PtA as your second suspect, state you'd be happy with his lynch, but derail the wagon on PtA to push your RW case. This is clearly a logical inconsistency. Also most of your RW case surrounds the A&B vote shenanigans. I'd be amazed if you don't recall RW's voting on your wagon in Alpha.

RW

For the love of God...see above. I'm getting a townish read off of RW for what it matters.

Trotsky

Your answer to my querry is lacking.

the vig claim would obviously be stupid as mafia, it was from zaphod's initial ignorance of the a+b wagon that we suspected her, and the sudden switch and hard push on it implied hard bussing--which we would expect dgbscum to do in such a case.

This still doesn't address why you would then ask A&B to kill Zaphod. At that point in time you knew A&B was very unlikely mafia, you just admitted as such.

If you don't see you're name in bold tags here you aren't posting enough. Get off your ass and post.

Hey shaft.ed I didn't know you were in this game... you might be upset at the innuendo suggested by one of the hydra's name... give my regards to your wife.

I agree with the above extracts from your post. I could definitely give a Trotsky or RW lynch a shot. As in, a shot in the head.

Come to think of it, one half of Trotsky has a self-confessed history of lurking to scum victories.

unvote, vote: Trotsky

[Frog Dodging]

You have a point, shaft.ed, about trotsky. With ZMD it feels worse because ZMD has also been lurking all game, whereas trostky was relatively active and involved at the beginning - the

only

thing zmd has done is push that wagon.

I also think trotsky's seesawing on the a&b wagon is more likely town than scum. Overall, I have a slightly scummy vibe from them but I'm happier lynching ZMD.

I'd quite like to finish off the PTA wagon, tbqh, but meh. I think we could learn a lot from knowing their alignment.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I also think trotsky's seesawing on the a&b wagon is more likely town than scum. Overall, I have a slightly scummy vibe from them but I'm happier lynching ZMD.

It depends on which half. The half that likes to lurk to victory is also the one that tunnels like mad when town. So seesawing and lurking would lean scum - heavily.

I say Trotsky is the lynch for today.

[Yosariwen]

Once again; just to reiterate, the above post and the willingness and need for self-adulation of Yoso on behalf of his partner reek of scum trying to find a way to jusitfy their "existence in the world"...The reason I write that is not because of a sure scum read but more so because of the defensive nature of the post. The fact and addition of needing to prove themselves by claiming they have 4 AIM chats that will "knock are socks off" seems completely scummy..

Ok, you are so scum.

We posted those AIM logs only because you demanded that I do so; we origionally didn't want to and weren't planning on doing so, but when you requested it, we couldn't reaally think of any reason not to (except, of coursee, that you are obv scum looking for some way to undermine our case against you.) We never claimed we had "4 aim chats that will knock your socks off" or anything even remotely like that; you're again pretty clearly just making stuff up here.

@Yo/Nuwen - umm, there is no wagon on me Genius, it is you and yours and yours against us alone!

Not yet. I'm sure there will be one soon though, if people are paying attention.

Remember we dont vote in this game who we dont like, we vote for who is scum.

Well, yeah. I like you guys just fine. It's not your fault you drew a scum role this game.

Anyway, RW, it's great that you unvoted me and all. But I still don't at all understand why you voted me in post 186.

RW: WHY DID YOU VOTE ME IN POST 186, IF YOU'RE CLAIMING IT WASN'T OMGUS?

]Wait, do you want 2 additional lynches in this action phase or 1 lynch, being the second lynch in this action phase (after A&B)? Post 179 read like you wanted 2 total but 185 reads like you want 3 total.

One more lynch today this action phase would be fine. I thought I was pretty clear about that...

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage; 2 lynches/day would give us a favorable town kill/scum kill ratio without totally shutting down town night actions, if we can manage it while not being stupid

Trying to do 3 a day seems like a bad idea to me.

I'm not sure about RW scum. A lot of it seems to be an emotional OMGUS reaction on Yosiwen's part - he made a nice long detailed post, got attacked for it, felt victimised. However, there is a nugget, a core (that came before the back and forth) which makes some sense - like I said before, we treat the A&B wagon like a townie wagon for the sake of scumhunting, and RW's actions there are scummy.

FWIW, I don't think that makes sense. If you think my respnse to Otrhohoop was emotional for this reason, you might be right. However, it was in that long post that I came to the conclusion RW was scum, and his posts since then have, IMHO, been quite scummy, especally post 186.

Other then that, Frog Dodging's post makes a lot of sense to me, especally the attack on ZMD.


[quote="KaleiÃ

[nyballosulgniirkps]

I am going to try to keep this as short and sweet as possible. Seriously. Every post doesn't need to be an epic saga. I also believe you folks scared away my partner, and I'm not sure if she's coming back. Good going.

Yosariwen's re-entrance into the game is very good. I'm getting a strong town vibe from him, and while I believe the point Ortohoops raises about his contradictory Raging Wishbone vote is valid, I believe his explanation is sufficient, nor do I believe it warrants the amount of attention that it has received. The pushes against him don't feel genuine, particularly from Raging Wishbone, and as such...

Vote: Raging Wishbone

for that horrendous vote justification in post 186:

Yos tail = easy... any time you try to defend Nuwens lack of intelligence and vocabulary and understanding of the game. Everyone here knows she ain't that stupid Dude... quit patronizing her, writing things that make her look stupid...kinda looks scummy because she does not seem to be a retard.

This is not an omgus vote it is bassd on ALPHA!

Whether or not this is a joke, it's terrible. Not only is it wrong - the 'tell' you speak of was applicable to the previous game because there was an actual slip that was being covered up - but it is the only real, 'solid' attempt at a justification I see in your entire post.

However, the ease of the wagon on PoketheAlpaca seems off to me; it seems too easy, no one seems to disagree with it at all. I can't quite explain it; I see scumtells and they look scummy on their own, but the wagon feels like it might be scum supported to me, or at least not scum opposed, if that makes sense; no one is arguing against this wagon, or trying to start a competing wagon, and that feels like a bad sign to me. Nuwen says she would like to see more people comment on this wagon.

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten? Your defence also makes no sense: "he's acting scummy but...I don't think he's scum".

You're putting words into his mouth. That entire paragraph you quoted is nothing more than an observation, yet you are twisting it to appear as if he is requesting that people carry it out.

I PF was scum. And everybody (Town and Scum) tried to use DGB (Who was a very powerful Vig) to kill other players since you were allowed 2 day kills a day and or only 1 lynch. Not even for a second did my scum group think of killing DGB. We thought of ways to use here to kill others for us the entire time. We even planned to lynch her later because her kills of town made her look like scum because she killed sometimes without anybody asking her too. She could have gone after us at any moment, thought we were scum and shot us to pieces. But she didn't. We figured she wouldn't and we were right. In my experience Town and scum have equal reasons to keep any and all other killing roles alive. As long as a player is a use to you there is no reason to kill them. Our scum group in that game even had the power to day kill without DGB to some extent. We didn't need her, she could have killed us, but we kept her alive because she was useful. If someone is useful to you and your side, then there is no reason to get rid of them no matter what side you are on. And I can see ways an extra kill could benefit either side.

Fair enough. Looking back, I'm noting that Raging Wishbone unvotes despite explicitly stating that he believes Apples & Bananas is more likely to be serial killer, which is seems a bit off to me.

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

This is an explanation I'm willing to accept. It doesn't counteract some things, however, such as the post on page three summarizing game events while being devoid of analysis, but it leads me to believe you guys were not trying to run up the post count as I previously did. Also, I agree with Shelvis that you seem to be tunneling. Could you provide a brief rundown of each player in your next post?

Korts' vote for Zaphod in post 183 does not look sincere, as it is one of few things he comments on despite the massive amount of content in the game up to that point.

Korts post was fine!

No it wasn't.

[Ojando]

@Raging Wishbone

The main reason I claim PokaTajo is town is because of this post, I went through and read all of his links and he makes a good case (So on one hand Poker makes a damn good Lawyer and could have defended OJ 'j/k", on the other he does come across as being honest.... at this point I think his post makes complete sense and that is why I think he is town!

...[cut]...

This is the second time you say strongly that you find PTA town, I wish you would just get on and give your reasons for thinking so already.
You call Ortohoops' case on Yos brilliant, but at the same time that case relied mostly on the suspicion that PTA is scum. Contradiction?

I thought Poker's post was extremely articulate, reasoned well...and if you clicked on every link he pointed out, well then you have done as much homework as me... If you ain't then don't talk to me! j/k, lol

The Pokerface post you were referring to is 182.
(viewtopic.php?p=1674373#1674373)

However,

However, 17 posts before that, in 165 you said:

Sorry all, me and RR are also trying to keep up with this game, but we are consumed by another game right now.... I think PoketheAlpace is a bad lynch!
... ... ...
Alpha should be over tomorrow by midnight, so I will do a reread and try to post further thoughts at the end of the week if not sooner. The reason, I think this post is important is again because I think Pokethealpace is a BAD lynch and I am responding to questions asked...

Your "main reason" doesn't match up to the timeline. This seems like a major internal inconsistency in your thought process (coming from the same head of the hydra).
Also, I continue to see your opinion of Ortohoops' Yos case being brilliant as a contradiction. Your description of what Yosariwen is posting doesn't seem to remotely match what I see them writing. Present your case/accusations with relevant parts from Yos quoted please.

[Frog Dodging]

Lurking=bad, especally if it slows the game to a halt.

You have not posted in 11 days. Where are you? (granted I like what little you have provided)

Yosariwen is still my pet suspicion, although it seems an unfortunately unpopular viewpoint at the moment. Yos is adamantly anti-lurking; why is he letting this game go 11 days without a single post from himself?

What bothers me the most is that nyball points out this MASSIVE HYPOCRISY and then pretty much ignores it entirely in favor of saying "I like what little you have posted, though!"

If Yosariwen = scum then nyball likely = scum.

Aside from one of the other contentless posters, I'm not really seeing a great alternative to PokeTheAlpaca - he was one of the fluffers early on and his main comeback so far has been trying to justify the use of those useless posts and igniting a weak case on Zaphod. I'm counting five votes on the wagon. I'm willing to wait a bit to hear what Wishbone has to say - I also need to see if I can get into contact with my partner. Ultimately I will likely be moving my vote there, however.

Pretty sure that you're the last one to be talking about contentlessness when your one post prior to this was a mostly useless one to try to call wanting to lynch someone who is either an SK or a vig who MUST KILL a scumtell. Which it generally isn't when the person in question appears to be paying no attention to the game itself whatsoever.

Nice fence-sit.

Generally when I'm on the fence about something, I sit on said fence. Thanks for pointing that out!

I disagree to an extent. Scum will still want to rush things a little. I expect to see a mix. Scum who are trying to sneak in extra posts and scum who lurk. That being said, Trotsky posted more than needed in the first couple of pages. +Scumpoints.

And you are a paragon of contribution, and definitely not lurking whatsoever! You're attacking someone who

barely posted at all

for posting more than needed in the first couple of pages while ignoring PTA who posted completely useless posts early on. What are you smoking, and where can I get some?

I don't see PTA as scum.

This is a well-qualified and great piece of analysis. POSITIVELY RIVETING

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here. Of course, lurking hurts the town as well, and probably hurts the town more; it's just really hard for me to post when I can't make a short pithy comment without wondering if it's worth doing in a cost/benifit analyis. (My intenet connection was down for about 24 hours on Wednesday, but that's not the main reason.)

Plus, for some reason, I'm really having trouble finding stuff to talk about in this game. Still, I will do my utmost to post more, even if it means some posts with less content. I've never been replaced in any game I've ever played on mafiascum, for ANY reason, and I will NOT let this be the first one if I can do anything about it.

Your excuse for your lurking is sensical, but kind of fails at the point where IIRC earlier you were the one stating "lurking = bad". You've clearly made up your mind as to which is worse, but you're just not making the effort to put anything forward. Furthermore, you're not the only half of that hydra. Where has Nuwen been?

With that second paragraph I can almost hear the sickeningly triumphant and patriotic music kicking in already. It doesn't mix well with what I'm listening to, FWIW. That being said I have bigger hypothetical fish to fry than you at the moment.

*6. Incamnito (Incognito+camn) : I like the scumhunting coming from this pair. Good vibes.

You're a very detail-oriented person. Why are you bothering to say "I like the scumhunting and good vibes from the dead people!"?

I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon.

This is a great point that I didn't even notice myself. Further affirms my suspicions of Yoswen.

EVERY game where I had seen him random vote he was town. EVERY game where he hadn't he was scum. He random voted in Alpha and I thought he could be town there and scum here. He was scum in alpha so I'm wondering if the town tell falling out there effects his non-random vote-age here.

What everyone seems to be forgetting (and what this is a shining example of) is that it's Yosari

wen

, not Yosari

an

. Stop ignoring Nuwen's existance.

Seriously? I spent 2 hours last night doing a hyper-detailed analysis of everything in the entiere game and every single person in the game, probably the longest and most meticulasly reserached scumhunting post I've done in any game all year, and that's your response? I find that kind of strange, honestly.

Ugh. I really hate this "HOW DARE YOU? IS THIS THE THANKS I GET? I SPENT ALL DAY SLAVING OVER A HOT KEYBOARD FOR YOU PEOPLE" point. For lack of a better term, it sucks.

Interesting you should say that; I was just think your absurd reaction here (which is basically you attacking me for daring to find Raging Wishbone to be somewhat scummier then PTA) very, very much increases the possibility of you being scum with Raging Wishbone, especally if Poke the Alpaca flips town.

I hate this. I truly do. You're basically saying their reaction was absurd for raising numerous legitimate points about your contributions.

Allow me to take this moment to make an aside. Yes, we need to conserve posts. No, we do not need to write something to rival War & Peace every time we make a post. More concise points and less trumping-up and fluff would be appreciated.

I started the wagon, remember?

We remember from the first six times you said that, thanks. Could you at least lay off of that until I have the chance to create a drinking game around every time you say you started that wagon?

Yos tail = easy... any time you try to defend Nuwens lack of intelligence and vocabulary and understanding of the game. Everyone here knows she ain't that stupid Dude... quit patronizing her, writing things that make her look stupid...kinda looks scummy because she does not seem to be a retard.

You have the intellect of a mosquito, but please post more because it is absolutely hilarious every time you do. At least I can read the walls-o-text knowing there'll be some zany comment by you somewhere. Raging Wishbone: The hilariously unstable hydra!

And now for a history lesson for you all. The reason Yos is generally revered as a good player is because he's very good at making his opinions appear as fact. For example, this:

For example, she was the one who first noticed how scummy your actions regarding the AB wagon was, she was the one who figured out that you are scum.

He speaks in the definite to make his opinion seem like the only acceptable one.

And how can you prove your earlier vote on PTA wasn't simple distancing???

Burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove the positive. Try again, please! It's pretty hard to prove a negative.

And I think he made a vote I didn't like the timing of.

Well, your honour, I think he might've gone done something I didn't quite cotton to at that point! Ayup!

I love how when it's pointed out he didn't vote after naming his suspects he gets RIGHT ON VOTING RIGHT THEN AND THERE. I'd also like to note that all of Zmd's votes so far have been on someone with 0 votes. It's like he's trying to blatantly avoid looking like a bandwagoner and trying to avoid any possible connection to anyone else at all. PAAAARANOIA

I'm not sure if continuning to go back and fourth on this forever is a good idea, since I don't want to waste too many posts. But I'm quite confident RW is scum, and frankly the sudden, unexpected, and harsh resistance I'm suddenly getting to the idea of lynching him is making me a lot more confident I'm going in the right direction.

"Hrmm. I seem to be getting resistance from quite a few people. I must be right!"

The SK, ESPECALLY an open and outed SK, is a MUCH bigger threat to the town then to the scum, and leaving him alive is MUCH more anti-town then it is anti-scum.

You are failing to remember the fact that he could just be exceptionally dense.

Also worth noting that Yoswen lurklurklurked until people started crying foul, then showed up and tried to be EXTRA ACTIVE!

It's a scum manipulation trick to remind other people "Hey, remember how that guy was scum and we were town last time we played?" It's scummy because my alignment in a different game clearly has nothing to do with my alignment here, so it's worthless as a scumhunting trick, but it's an effective manipulation technique that's effective at getting people to look at someone else in a suspicious way.

IT'S A TRAP

meh but dont worry I defended yo/nuwen this much in Alpha and turned on them first mistake they made and we ALL nailed them. I promise if I make a mistake I will be the first to admit it but for now tajo/poker = fail lynch!.

YOU ARE MARGINALIZING MY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE YOSWEN WAGON IN ALPHA I HATE YOU DON'T SPEAK TO ME

However. Yosariwen is town.

I wholeheartedly disagree with myself.

We've agreed that our vote, despite my inclinations towards Yoswen, will be placed upon Zmd. I also want more pressure on nyball. Now.

Unvote, Vote: zmd

I am disappointed in how painful this game is to read thanks to the massive wall-o-texts.

Apparently I also want to note that zmd's posts are noticeably less detailed and whatnot than in alpha.

[Yosarian2]

Yosariwen is still my pet suspicion, although it seems an unfortunately unpopular viewpoint at the moment. Yos is adamantly anti-lurking; why is he letting this game go 11 days without a single post from himself?

Because I hate this mechanic that punishes town for posting, and I don't deal well with it. I mentioned that in the queau thread, and I had similar problems in Short and Sweet II, when I was also town, which punished pro-town people for posting. viewtopic.php?t=6703&highlight=short+sweet. At one point in that game, I lurked for 15 days streight, and that wasn't the only time I lurked in that game, either.

I think the correct move in this kind of game is to wait until you have something really important to say before posting, but on an emotional level, I find "waiting before posting until I have something really important to say, for a few days if necessary" completly incompatable with "keeping caught up with a game and not getting bored with it." It's a deep problem with this kind of game, and I'm not sure what the solution is.

Your excuse for your lurking is sensical, but kind of fails at the point where IIRC earlier you were the one stating "lurking = bad".

(nods) Lurking is bad. It's hard not to lurk, though, when I have to carefeully weigh all my posts and try to decide if it's worth posting.

Honestly, if I was scum in this game, I'd have no problem posting a lot more, because I wouldn't be worried about that.

You're a very detail-oriented person. Why are you bothering to say "I like the scumhunting and good vibes from the dead people!"?

Ah; yeah, I had forgotten that at this stage of the read-through, i suppose. I was getting pretty damn tired by this point of my post.

I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon.

This is a great point that I didn't even notice myself. Further affirms my suspicions of Yoswen.

It might be a logical point, if I ever suggested I might "want as many lynches as possible." Of course, I never actually said anything like that.

Interesting you should say that; I was just think your absurd reaction here (which is basically you attacking me for daring to find Raging Wishbone to be somewhat scummier then PTA) very, very much increases the possibility of you being scum with Raging Wishbone, especally if Poke the Alpaca flips town.

I hate this. I truly do. You're basically saying their reaction was absurd for raising numerous legitimate points about your contributions.

What "numerous legitimate points" are you talking about, exactally? You stated one point you agreed with them on, but that point was completly wrong and based on a complete misrepresantation of what I had said.

Allow me to take this moment to make an aside. Yes, we need to conserve posts. No, we do not need to write something to rival War & Peace every time we make a post. More concise points and less trumping-up and fluff would be appreciated.

Pfft.

I will generally respond to points people make against me. If someone makes 10 points against me, I'll generally respond to all 10.

Other then that, if I compress what would normally be at least 3 posts into 1, like I did in the post that started this, it certanly is going to be long. That's not becuase of "trumpeting up" or "fluff", and it's not actually any more to read then if I did it in 3 posts.

We remember from the first six times you said that, thanks. Could you at least lay off of that until I have the chance to create a drinking game around every time you say you started that wagon?

Well, he made a completly absurd point that could easily be demonstrated to be absurd by just pointing out that I started the tajo wagon, and he seemed to continue to just ignore that and repeat himself.

If there is a simple, logical refutation of what he are saying, and he's ignoring it, then sure, I'll keep repeating myself.

"Let's go to the bar."
"But you're on fire."
"Yeah, but it'll be fun."
"But you're on fire."
"It's only a 10 minute drive there. It'll be fine."
"But you're on fire!"

I love how when it's pointed out he didn't vote after naming his suspects he gets RIGHT ON VOTING RIGHT THEN AND THERE. I'd also like to note that all of Zmd's votes so far have been on someone with 0 votes. It's like he's trying to blatantly avoid looking like a bandwagoner and trying to avoid any possible connection to anyone else at all. PAAAARANOIA

Yeah, ZMD looks overly cautious, in a way that's pretty scummy. I could go for a ZMD wagon today.

"Hrmm. I seem to be getting resistance from quite a few people. I must be right!"

Yup, that's how it works, actually. Especally on day 1.

Trying to figure out what the mafia want is like watching a large, invisible fish in a small fishbowl. You can't see the fish and you don't know which way that fish is swimming, but when all the water starts moving to the left...ok, this is a bad analogy. But you get the idea. When there seems to be a lot of support for one option and a lot of opposition for another, and I can't see any logical reason for that difference, it often means that scum are trying to push the town in that direction.

The SK, ESPECALLY an open and outed SK, is a MUCH bigger threat to the town then to the scum, and leaving him alive is MUCH more anti-town then it is anti-scum.

You are failing to remember the fact that he could just be exceptionally dense.

Not an acceptable defense. If a person does something is anti-town, it lowers your odds of being town. If you do something that is pro-scum, it raises your odds of being scum. Yes, there is always a chance they are town making a mistake, but that's not the way to bet.

Also worth noting that Yoswen lurklurklurked until people started crying foul, then showed up and tried to be EXTRA ACTIVE!

Pfft. You have a problem with us being active now?

I am disappointed in how painful this game is to read thanks to the massive wall-o-texts.

I know what you mean, that's another problem that can contribute to inactivity, but it's probably inevitable given proper pro-town play in this setup.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

This game is getting stupider by the

minute

ice age glacier crawl. The amount of text is just ridiculous, and this to no improvement to the content ratio that I can see. I have not read the last page and I don't plan on doing so. I think everyone has been padding their posts due to early pressure to not post fluff, well, if you are town, stop it, content=/=words count=most people have the brain to make the difference.

On Zaphod Beeblebrox, I see the case being pushed against them as wobbly. I could see town do the 'gloating' at the sk lynch too.

On Pokethealpaca: the early lack of good contribution is an ok argument
however, the 'posting fluff is extremely antitown and likely from scum' argument is almost certainly bunk, so it kind of make them less likely to be scum.

Still waiting on trotsky.

On Yosariwen: I hate it. Justification in less than 100 words for last page please. What was the point you were trying to make. Why so many words?

FOS

up to lynch it at any moment.

We need to deal with this in a sane manner because I don't see the current dynamic going anywhere anytime soon, which is crap because he setup is actually extremely advantageous to town. I suggest we do a lynch pledging list and whomever reach majority get lynched in a methodical manner. If no majority can be reached, we lynch by relative majority.

Currently with ~4 pages left it would be a shame if we couldn't manage at least one more lynch (though there is room for two).

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (0)
3. Zmd (0)
4. Trotsky(1): nyballosulgniirkps
5. Ojando (0):
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (0):
9. sex w/ shafteds wife club(0):
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (0):
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

This post is pending input by Kison. For the sake of effeciency, I'm imposing the 'revision by partner' of the pledge list at 1 post per hydra and per lynch.

[J-Scope]

I’m not sold on ZMD’s motives on taking interest on a non-wagon being scummy yet. I want to see how he reacts to multiple people calling out his cautious play. I do not like that he has virtually ignored PoketheAlpaca, but I’m not sure that affects how I see where he’s putting his attention instead.

Also PoketheAlpaca has gone missing this last week. I definitely want to see more of them.

However, what do you like about Trotsky's Zaphod case? There's nothing there.

I think it’s a legitimate case if they attempt to analyze Zaphod and explain how Zaphod ignored the A&B wagon and pushed another wagon with weak reasons. I thought they could legitimize their Zaphod case by explaining how these reasons were weak, we just need to see what they do when they catch up in this game.

---------------------------

Some thoughts on the Yosariwen vs Raging Wishbone argument:

I think Yos and Nuwen give legit reasons for voting RW in post 179 and then they vote with this disclosure:

Vote:Raging Wishbone, our biggest suspect after that (exausting) re-read and analysis. (Also, it actually took 4 AIM posts to send this whole thing to Nuwen for comment before I posted it, haha)

I don’t think they made it necessary here for us to see all of their private discussions on this topic. If they had a case that went beyond what they made public, they could have made that public on their own. There are going to be some debates on reads made in private.

RW comes back with a vote on Yosariwen that they want to call OMGUS but I understand it as a vote for meta reasons, though I think RW’s meta here doesn’t really apply because Nuwen did not do anything like she did in alpha.

I need to respond to a few posts but timing is of the essence on this one, since Yoso, is here ONLINE right now...please post your GOLLY 4 aim chats asap! Don't want to give you more time to try and fake them again. Wink

RW asks Yosariwen to release the AIM chat logs, which is now their second move to replay alpha (the first bringing up the meta). I don’t think they are going too far by asking for these logs; it sounds like a good idea to pressure Yosariwen into explaining their thought process.

Nuwen posts the chat logs that are still being deciphered like the Dead Sea Scrolls but basically downplays the logs usefulness to the group. I'd like to see RW analyze these logs before they draw too many conclusions.

RW comes back and I think they misrepresent the initial Yosariwen vote on them by saying this:

The fact and addition of needing to prove themselves by claiming they have 4 AIM chats that will "knock are socks off" seems completely scummy.

It looks to me like RW is trying to undermine Yosariwen’s initial vote on them by making it look like Yosariwen had acknowledged the chats as a justification for voting (which I don’t agree with) along with eventually releasing the chats as an offensive, instead of defensive, play, when it was clear that RW made them release the chats. RW’s conclusion that the situation was “completely scummy” here looks reactive and exaggerated.

In this debate Yosariwen looks town to me and RW could be scum. I need to look at all his posts in isolation, but when they refer to alpha to bring more emotion into their defense my scumdar pings loud and clear:

I will not FUCKING be crucified in this game the same way I was in the Alpha game for making a good choice on lynching scum!

[PoketheAlpaca]

I am curious about the other arguments you were trying to use in 154, because the REST of the arguments you were using to attack him seemed pretty illogical to me, and I would like you to explain them. Especally wher you attack him because he attacked Zaphod for not voting; "not voting" is generally a decent scumtell, and especally in a game like this where you should really be using your vote at all times.

Where did I attack her for not voting?

Up until the alpha game played out, i had a good meta on Yosarian. EVERY game where I had seen him random vote he was town. EVERY game where he hadn't he was scum.

Lol.

I random vote just about 50% of the time when I'm town, and just about 50% of the time when I'm scum. Other factors affect it, certanly, but I actually make an effort to try to keep it close to that number when I can, for meta reasons that I'm not going to go into right now.

Nice try to come up with a Yos tell, though. Pretty sure that's just a factor of the relitivly small number of games we've played together, though.

The meta didn't just have games I played with you but ones I read as well. I had about 10 or so where you random voted and were town and about 10 or so where you didn't random vote and were scum. None of the games you replaced into were a part of this study for obv reasons of those games weren't in the random stage anymore. If what your saying about the 50% is true then I must have been getting lucky staring at the values until the Alpha game. I find that surprising. Does Nuwen ever random vote or did you both just decide not to vote till you had a reason?

_________________

In this game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8926
I PF was scum. And everybody (Town and Scum) tried to use DGB (Who was a very powerful Vig) to kill other players since you were allowed 2 day kills a day and or only 1 lynch. Not even for a second did my scum group think of killing DGB. etc. etc.

This is pretty much a point made with a sample size of one in a game with different circumstances. In this game the vidge/SK gets to make a new kill every action phase in a smallish game. Additionally not knowing whether they are town or self-aligned makes their actions unpredictable to other scum-players. Scum players would also potentially be scared of town reaching consensus on who the vidge/SK should kill and targetting them or their scumbuddies. Finally I see him as, if he was scum, wanting to not have to waste his kill on him that action phase (surely he'd prefer to get him lynched and choose a different target). As I said it's not an overwhelming town tell but I still view it as a town tell nonetheless.

Well I generally keep claimed vigs alive always. As Scum or as town. I do this partly because I agree with "Pie is Good"'s general view on vigs. I can't find an exact link to an MD thread where pie discusses these views atm, but if I do I'll give it in thread. But basically a Vig's kill can always act as a second lynch. If the vig is townish or confirmed town, they should control the kill themselves. Otherwise they should be directed. If the extra lynch is not entirly needed or they are scummy as all hell and you are outside lylo, instead of lynching them, ask them to vig themselves. If they don't comply they are scum and you should lynch them. I believe those are the values that can be applied here. Me and others believe/or have heard of these ideas as Frog dodge mentioned the possibility of A&B vidging themselves earlier for example. A large number of IRC players also have this view on vigs. So I am speaking from my expierence and giving an example where all players wanted a claimed vig to stay alive and help their side.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

This summarises the main two points we are being attacked for this game: the first is supposedly "fluff posting" while attacking others for fluff posting. Now I acknowledge that some of what Hoops posted was sloppy, especially when she then wanted to attack other people for wasting posts. However, in the scheme of things, none of our posts have been as wasteful as for example PTA's or Zmd's or Death The Hogfather's or Korts' or J-Scope's or Zaphod Beeblebrox's; all of whom have made at least one post

entirely

devoid of game or meta related content from my brief check of the last few pages.

The other point is that "our" read on PTA differed between different points in the game. As should have been obvious from for example, the difference in purple and black text, that was two different people reading. Hoops made the first post without consulting me, and while I was doing Alpha I kind of expected her to post here but she had to move countries so when we got prodded I took it upon myself to make the post and could not ignore PTA's blatant scumminess- I could not consult her at the time and still haven't had a proper opportunity to talk to her about this game. Nevertheless, I very much disagree with PTA's wagon being "opportunistic". So, PTA, with my rebuttal to these two points in mind, I would urge you to very strongly reconsider your view you are not OMGUSing us, as neither of your points have merit imo (your case against us in light of these points is even weaker which leads me to wonder how much scumhunting rather than OMGUSing scum-style you're actually trying to do).

Well can you give me your general view of hoopla's opinion here:

To prevent this post existing for a mere correction, I want to use this space to talk about a couple of things. The posting rate in this game is flat - remember we still do have 13 pages to get through before a recharge. At the rate we're going at now, that will take ~12 days. This is plenty of time to make an accurate lynch decision.

I don't want to get to a stage where the sole basis of scumminess is from posting activity. Scaring people into thinking they'll get jumped upon for small posts will kill the game, and make it easier for scum. Use common sense to limit one-liners, yes, but I also think it's a cheap excuse for scum to attack players. We have more posts than we think, we really do.

--

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks

very

opportunistic. Of the people on the wagon, A&B's vote stands out the most as a cheap way to jump on, especially when they were yet to post content. Kscope's meta suggests all is fine for him jumping on too, but I still don't like the baseless entry.

I'm going to

Vote: Apples and Bananas

on a gut read.

This wagon looks far more promising. I'll explain my logic a little better though; I think 13 pages to get a lynch is far more space than we actually think for a game this size. That's 325 posts.

Of the last 10 completed mini's, the first lynch was taken

before

post 325 in 6 of those games. And I think it's generally well-known that D1's are most commonly the longest. These set-up's have just two less players than what we have now. Not to mention players were playing normally in those games, not trying to conserve posts.

My main point is I don't think scum would blatantly draw attention to themself in such an obvious way - or rather, I don't think those spam posts were intentionally made to waste posts, when a recharge target is so far off. There is little to no scum motivation behind it.

In fact I'd suggest scum would more likely be the players most wary of this infraction. It's a simple way for them to sit back early and jump on someone for fluff posting, knowing that the town is paranoid of this. And, I think A&B is most guilty of this crime.

I've already explained my stance on the value of posts. We're not even 5 pages into the game and we almost have a lynch - the town should hypothetically be aiming for 2-3 lynches per action phase, and we should be able to do it comfortably.

Lets make a safe presumption and say we only lynch twice before page 13 - scum have had their kill, and the Sk/vig has one too. We're down to 10 players, and the next phase still has 10 pages, where we should easily be able to lynch 2-3 players again with more information in the game. I really think we don't need to be so hasty, and certainly don't think the basis of cases should be determined by their signal:noise ratio, unless it's substancial.

Now, addressing your post more specifically; every time you generate suspicion on someone, you're basing it on the thought that scum are more likely to do x than town. The way you come to the conclusion I'm scum, is on the basis of this logic. It's simple - I think scum are more likely to avoid fluff posting early on, and take the opposite stance.

It's an easy way to force suspicion on players - they're preying on the paranoia of the town. I don't think scum would be stupid enough to come in and make fluff posts to start the game. Why would they want the early attention when they don't even know how hasty the town is going to be with post wasting? It's a stupid risk to jump in the limelight like that, and it's even stupider to not be aware that fluff posts would put them under pressure.

This is why I think scum would take the stance of jumping on

anything

that could be interpretted as a slight waste.

What do you think of it in comparison to your will to go after post wasters. Do you believe that alone was a valid reason to go after A&B compared to the other reasons out there?

_________________

The main reason I claim PokaTajo is town is because of this post, I went through and read all of his links and he makes a good case (So on one hand Poker makes a damn good Lawyer and could have defended OJ 'j/k", on the other he does come across as being honest.... at this point I think his post makes complete sense and that is why I think he is town!

Heh heh, but seriously I wouldn't have defended OJ for all the tea in china. He was and still is obvscum.

I never said one was better than the other. What I said back there was Let's lynch them both.

Okay that still sounds odd to me. You would have to lynch one first, and judging by your vote I’d assume you wanted Ortohoops first? Would a particular role flip have given you pause to lynch Zaphod or consideration in some other route?

I can't say I've really seen any defined connections between Ortohoops and Zaphod. Nothing that would indicate the 2 hydras as scum partners, or both townies, or one of each. If Ortohoops was lynched and turned up scum I may have paused to search for said connections they may of had with anyone to get the best lynch. If ortohoops came up town

at that moment

I'd probably have gone after Zaphod as long as no new info came up on the ortohoops wagon like someone dropping and obv scummy hamer/vote somewhere.

Right now However I am re-thinking on Zaphod given the context of these posts.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 04#1651904
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 29#1655229
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 46#1655246
They explain her jump onto A&B when I originally thought pressure from RW led them to vote in that direction. I'm still thinking Ortohoops is scum and I have a mixed read on Zaphod as plum's earlier A&B analysis still seemed useless with A&B dead. It's been awhile since I've spoken with tajo about this game. We haven't seemed to be getting on at the same time. We'll try to make a post of views on other players on the weekend as well as answer the question below here with the views.

We need to deal with this in a sane manner because I don't see the current dynamic going anywhere anytime soon, which is crap because he setup is actually extremely advantageous to town. I suggest we do a lynch pledging list and whomever reach majority get lynched in a methodical manner. If no majority can be reached, we lynch by relative majority.

Currently with ~4 pages left it would be a shame if we couldn't manage at least one more lynch (though there is room for two).

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (0)
3. Zmd (0)
4. Trotsky(1): nyballosulgniirkps
5. Ojando (0):
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (0):
9. sex w/ shafteds wife club(0):
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (0):
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

This post is pending input by Kison. For the sake of effeciency, I'm imposing the 'revision by partner' of the pledge list at 1 post per hydra and per lynch.

[WaltWishbone]

Work, work, work, work, work...

Ok, I will try to make this post as small as possible, but I will be using quote boxes. First and foremost let me preface this post by stating; my previous POST#196 was NOT a direct reply to Yo/nuws POST#195, it was the follow up to my request for chat logs post and we simuliposted, less than ten minutes apart.

It took them less than an hour to do there aim chat logs, it took me around the same time to do my post.... I feel extremely confident they are obv-town.... Look at the times and the content of their posts regarding their and ZMDs simulpost, then the continued conversation up until around 6pm... I find it highly unlikely they were able to create that post, all of those logs in time if it was not real!

d) "Once again; just to reiterate, the above post and the willingness and need for self-adulation of Yoso on behalf of his partner reek of scum trying to find a way to jusitfy their "existence in the world"" - I beg your pardon? This is probably the worst of the lot - it just doesn't make sense. That's not the way scum mentalities work. Scum do not need adulation. They are not looking to justify their existence in the world. I don't even know how you came to that conclusion.

I'm not sure about RW scum. A lot of it seems to be an emotional OMGUS reaction on Yosiwen's part - he made a nice long detailed post, got attacked for it, felt victimised. However, there is a nugget, a core (that came before the back and forth) which makes some sense - like I said before, we treat the A&B wagon like a townie wagon for the sake of scumhunting, and RW's actions there are scummy.

It was self-adulation! This was not a response to the simulpost it was my continued observations from their previous post.... I mean you are correct; I guess both Scum and Town can be subject to this type of behaviour. I wrote, "justify their existence to the world" in "parenthesis" to indicate it was not to be taken literal and merely a figure of speech/post, lol.... Bottom line their post came across as defensive, but I thought their follow-up point was bang on. I really think they are town!

RW for the love of God could you PLEASE not quote entire walls of text to reply with one line. PLEASE!@!!

RW

For the love of God...see above. I'm getting a townish read off of RW for what it matters.

Lol ok, but damn this game is so much work! lol

I agree with the above extracts from your post. I could definitely give a Trotsky or RW lynch a shot. As in, a shot in the head.

I am so glad you agreee with the above, but no where in SexEd's post did she indicate she wanted me lynched... Spin conversations much?

By the way damn fine case on Trotsky... Care to elaborate beofre just randomly lynching people?

Ok, you are so scum.
We posted those AIM logs only because you demanded that I do so; we origionally didn't want to and weren't planning on doing so, but when you requested it, we couldn't reaally think of any reason not to (except, of coursee, that you are obv scum looking for some way to undermine our case against you.) We never claimed we had "4 aim chats that will knock your socks off" or anything even remotely like that; you're again pretty clearly just making stuff up here.

Please read above me and Nuwen simulposted, actually I thought your aim chats are almost flawless!

Not yet. I'm sure there will be one soon though, if people are paying attention.

Meh, we shall see.

[

Remember we dont vote in this game who we dont like, we vote for who is scum.

Well, yeah. I like you guys just fine. It's not your fault you drew a scum role this game.

Anyway, RW, it's great that you unvoted me and all. But I still don't at all understand why you voted me in post 186.

RW: WHY DID YOU VOTE ME IN POST 186, IF YOU'RE CLAIMING IT WASN'T OMGUS?

lol, yeah, yeah, yeah we luv ya too. But Read much, I wrote I wanted to unvote you because I thought I may be omgussing. (why ask me if i omgussed you if I am thinking I might have?) I voted you in the first place because your previous post reeked of defensivness.... Also, I wrote that POST and unvoted you before I read your aim chat logs so you wouldn't get quick lynched whilst me and RR were away.

I honestly deabted writing a third post to let everyone know this was a smilupost but was tired, didnt not want to waist a post and figured everyone was clever enough to look at the time stamps yos/nuw.

I mean the only thing that scares me a bit is that you brought up that you had these intense aim chat logs, so you could have had half that post ready to go...but the rest was so perfect... I really think you are town.

Yosariwen's re-entrance into the game is very good. I'm getting a strong town vibe from him, and while I believe the point Ortohoops raises about his contradictory Raging Wishbone vote is valid, I believe his explanation is sufficient, nor do I believe it warrants the amount of attention that it has received. The pushes against him don't feel genuine, particularly from Raging Wishbone, and as such...

Vote: Raging Wishbone

for that horrendous vote justification in post 186:

Yos tail = easy... any time you try to defend Nuwens lack of intelligence and vocabulary and understanding of the game. Everyone here knows she ain't that stupid Dude... quit patronizing her, writing things that make her look stupid...kinda looks scummy because she does not seem to be a retard.

This is not an omgus vote it is bassd on ALPHA!

Whether or not this is a joke, it's terrible. Not only is it wrong - the 'tell' you speak of was applicable to the previous game because there was an actual slip that was being covered up - but it is the only real, 'solid' attempt at a justification I see in your entire post.to me?

I am not going to change my opinion of how off it feels for Yos to defend Nuwen, however I will give you this point they WERE scum in Alpha and I absolutely do not feel they are scum here anymore. Dude she kicked our asses in Heavens Gates, so for him to say she is inexperienced is off in my humble opinion. Regarding your further comemnts again me and Nuwen simulposted... My response was NOT to her aim logs...

The Pokerface post you were referring to is 182.
(http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 73#1674373)

However,

However, 17 posts before that, in 165 you said:

Sorry all, me and RR are also trying to keep up with this game, but we are consumed by another game right now.... I think PoketheAlpace is a bad lynch!
... ... ...
Alpha should be over tomorrow by midnight, so I will do a reread and try to post further thoughts at the end of the week if not sooner. The reason, I think this post is important is again because I think Pokethealpace is a BAD lynch and I am responding to questions asked...

Your "main reason" doesn't match up to the timeline. This seems like a major internal inconsistency in your thought process (coming from the same head of the hydra). Also, I continue to see your opinion of Ortohoops' Yos case being brilliant as a contradiction. Your description of what Yosariwen is posting doesn't seem to remotely match what I see them writing. Present your case/accusations with relevant parts from Yos quoted please.

Again we simulposted with Yos/nuw team, as I indicated "I felt it was worth two posts".. I think they are as close to confirmed town we have now. Regarding Poke/Tajo my post was a reply to the previous post. As far as my first post when we were about to end Alpha, it was in response to my Feeling that he was being bandwagon unfairly and his previous responses... I still absolutely feel that way!

Yos tail = easy... any time you try to defend Nuwens lack of intelligence and vocabulary and understanding of the game. Everyone here knows she ain't that stupid Dude... quit patronizing her, writing things that make her look stupid...kinda looks scummy because she does not seem to be a retard.

You have the intellect of a mosquito, but please post more because it is absolutely hilarious every time you do. At least I can read the walls-o-text knowing there'll be some zany comment by you somewhere. Raging Wishbone: The hilariously unstable hydra!

meh, don't worry I won't let ya down, we have a lot of game left... lol.

meh but dont worry I defended yo/nuwen this much in Alpha and turned on them first mistake they made and we ALL nailed them. I promise if I make a mistake I will be the first to admit it but for now tajo/poker = fail lynch!.

YOU ARE MARGINALIZING MY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE YOSWEN WAGON IN ALPHA I HATE YOU DON'T SPEAK TO ME

Dude, I already gave you your kudos in Alpha for starting the Yo/nuw wagon...

I am inclined to agree with many of the comments on ZMD... I also would like to hear something from Trotsky, because he has seemed to disappear. I really want to confer with my partner before voting and I am not sure when his vla ends....

MOD: Can we please get a prod on Trotsky?

Some thoughts on the Yosariwen vs Raging Wishbone argument:

I think Yos and Nuwen give legit reasons for voting RW in post 179 and then they vote with this disclosure:

Vote:Raging Wishbone, our biggest suspect after that (exausting) re-read and analysis. (Also, it actually took 4 AIM posts to send this whole thing to Nuwen for comment before I posted it, haha)

I don’t think they made it necessary here for us to see all of their private discussions on this topic. If they had a case that went beyond what they made public, they could have made that public on their own. There are going to be some debates on reads made in private.

RW comes back with a vote on Yosariwen that they want to call OMGUS but I understand it as a vote for meta reasons, though I think RW’s meta here doesn’t really apply because Nuwen did not do anything like she did in alpha.

I need to respond to a few posts but timing is of the essence on this one, since Yoso, is here ONLINE right now...please post your GOLLY 4 aim chats asap! Don't want to give you more time to try and fake them again. Wink

RW asks Yosariwen to release the AIM chat logs, which is now their second move to replay alpha (the first bringing up the meta). I don’t think they are going too far by asking for these logs; it sounds like a good idea to pressure Yosariwen into explaining their thought process.

Nuwen posts the chat logs that are still being deciphered like the Dead Sea Scrolls but basically downplays the logs usefulness to the group. I'd like to see RW analyze these logs before they draw too many conclusions.

RW comes back and I think they misrepresent the initial Yosariwen vote on them by saying this:

The fact and addition of needing to prove themselves by claiming they have 4 AIM chats that will "knock are socks off" seems completely scummy.

It looks to me like RW is trying to undermine Yosariwen’s initial vote on them by making it look like Yosariwen had acknowledged the chats as a justification for voting (which I don’t agree with) along with eventually releasing the chats as an offensive, instead of defensive, play, when it was clear that RW made them release the chats. RW’s conclusion that the situation was “completely scummy” here looks reactive and exaggerated.

In this debate Yosariwen looks town to me and RW could be scum. I need to look at all his posts in isolation, but when they refer to alpha to bring more emotion into their defense my scumdar pings loud and clear:

I will not FUCKING be crucified in this game the same way I was in the Alpha game for making a good choice on lynching scum!

My analysis, is their aim chats are extremely convincing. I think to me the thing that stands ou most is starting around the same time ZMD and Yos simulpost they have an in depth conversation (that material could not have been faked before hand)... Then it continues to where I asked them to post their aim logs and they still keep chatting for like twenty minutes... I don't think she could have put that post together in 45 minutes or so...

Dude, serious? Emotional plea? I really don;'t expect to get any emotional sympathy on mafiascum evah, lol...

Regarding the few missed questions, RR will need to answer... I do not know exactly what he was thinking when he posted last... Which was over a week or two ago.

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (0)
3. Zmd (0)
4. Trotsky(1): nyballosulgniirkps
5. Ojando (0):
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (0):
9. sex w/ shafteds wife club(0):
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (0):
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

This post is pending input by Kison. For the sake of effeciency, I'm imposing the 'revision by partner' of the pledge list at 1 post per hydra and per lynch.

Not hating this plan, BUT I dont want to quick lynch people I think are town... I also would like to here what my partner says when he gets back, but, at this point this is the best scum read I have....

FOS: Trotsky

FOS: ZMD

The main reason I claim PokaTajo is town is because of this post, I went through and read all of his links and he makes a good case (So on one hand Poker makes a damn good Lawyer and could have defended OJ 'j/k", on the other he does come across as being honest.... at this point I think his post makes complete sense and that is why I think he is town!

Heh heh, but seriously I wouldn't have defended OJ for all the tea in china. He was and still is obvscum.

Neither you or me, lol...

[Saunt Adelaus]

sex w/ shafteds wife club, Latvian Mafia Godfather, has been killed.

[Saunt Adelaus]

Votecount as of post 213:

PoketheAlpaca:

3

:Ortohoops, J-Scope, Ojando
Raging Wishbone:

2

:Yosariwen, nyballosulgniirkps,
Trotsky:

2

:Zmd, Zaphod Beeblebrox,
Ortohoops:

1

:PoketheAlpaca
zmd:

1

:Frog Dodging,


not voting:

3

:Raging Wishbone, Trotsky,

while 11 players are alive, 6 votes will lynch

edit: I missed PoketheAlpaca's vote. I may have missed more. These walls of text are good at hiding votes.

[Saunt Adelaus]

prodded: Trotsky

current prod count:

1

:Frog Dodging, Ortohoops, PoketheAlpaca, Yosariwen, Zmd, Trotsky

3rd prod = instant replacement.

[Trotsky]

so this game mechanic makes my eyes bleed. guys, honestly, you don't need to post essays. make salient points and don't waste posts on nonsense and we'll be all good.

Please stop wasting time on chit chat and get on with the LYNCH TROTSKY OPERATION. He is not his town self.

unvote, vote: Trotsky

whose meta are you basing this on?

zaphod, why is this question so hard for you to answer. i asked it once and got completely ignored, then i asked it again while voting for you and in response got an "omg wtf bbq" dgb blow up. she is hiding behind some newfangled meta hatred for me and obsession with the fact that i have found her scummy in multiple recent games.

i posit that zaphod was looking for an easy wagon and calling a meta argument against us that didn't even need to be backed up was a great way to try and start it. her complete disregard to my query of what exactly the basis of her meta argument was is evidence in favor of this theory. the emotional outburst in favor of actually responding to me is just gravy.

vote: zaphod

i haven't completely gone through all of the monster posts that have been made recently, but i will be getting together with my other head and doing that soon. a cursory glance up the page after this shaft.elvis death gives me a warm fuzzy about zaphod's chances of being a scumpartner.

[J-Scope]

Looking back at Sex with shaft.ed’s wife’s posts I don’t see PoketheAlpaca as a likely partner of them. Much of their post 164 was dedicated to building up a serious case on Alapca and they didn’t push the case on Trotsky nearly as far.

At this point I'm not liking Trotsky or PtA. I'd like more pressure on the former, but have a clearer read on the latter. So let's do both, we've got all they lynches we want.

This to me looks like an attempt to group the two together by saying he’d be okay with lynching both. But at the same time SWSSC only had a minor point about Trotsky while making a big case on Alpaca. I don't see them preparing to move off the Alpaca wagon with only a few pages left in the day.

Post 175 looks like an attempt to push the Alpaca lynch before the Trotsky lynch. Shaft.ed’s post 200 doesn’t change my opinion about how they were treating Trotsky or Alpaca. Therefore I think Alpaca is very unlikely to be a scumbuddy with Shaft.ed.

I need to see if anyone else interacted with shaft.ed but right now I’d be more confidant in a RW lynch than a Alpaca one. I'll probably vote them after a read of shaft.ed interactions and more looking at RW and Yosariwen's AIM chats. I don't like the Trotsky or Ortohoops wagon, and I don't think Yosariwen is scum. I'm still not sure about ZMD; they just haven't said or done enough.

unvote

[Raging Wishbone]

"Another one Bites the dust"... I think it is safe to now assume A & B lied about killing FrogDodge and submitted a Sex wi5th Ed kill... Thanks.. Two down, two to go.... Hmmm.......

Looking back at Sex with shaft.ed’s wife’s posts I don’t see PoketheAlpaca as a likely partner of them. Much of their post 164 was dedicated to building up a serious case on Alapca and they didn’t push the case on Trotsky nearly as far.

At this point I'm not liking Trotsky or PtA. I'd like more pressure on the former, but have a clearer read on the latter. So let's do both, we've got all they lynches we want.

This to me looks like an attempt to group the two together by saying he’d be okay with lynching both. But at the same time SWSSC only had a minor point about Trotsky while making a big case on Alpaca. I don't see them preparing to move off the Alpaca wagon with only a few pages left in the day.

Post 175 looks like an attempt to push the Alpaca lynch before the Trotsky lynch. Shaft.ed’s post 200 doesn’t change my opinion about how they were treating Trotsky or Alpaca. Therefore I think Alpaca is very unlikely to be a scumbuddy with Shaft.ed.

I need to see if anyone else interacted with shaft.ed but right now I’d be more confidant in a RW lynch than a Alpaca one. I'll probably vote them after a read of shaft.ed interactions and more looking at RW and Yosariwen's AIM chats. I don't like the Trotsky or Ortohoops wagon, and I don't think Yosariwen is scum. I'm still not sure about ZMD; they just haven't said or done enough.

unvote

Gee, J-scope, now that Alpha is over you can add in the details to your fake daytalk from that game, please do so....

@Hoops, please post us your daytalks without the white blobs Sir, lol. now that Alpha is over you can discuss both games at the same time....

My new reads...

Yo/Nuw - town

Poke/Tajo - townish
FrogDodge - Townish

Trotsky - neutral
Nyballs - neutral
Zaphod - neutral

Hoops - ? Waiting
J-Scope - ? Waiting

Ojando - dont know

ZMD - Scumish

I wanna here what Hoops and Jscope write and f RR aint back later I will make a vote after that...

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

It's not normal for Trotsky to lurk and be so un-roflcopter-like. In fact, this is very much roflcopterscum meta terrritory.

I don't need a wall of text to explain that, do I?

I think we should lynch Trotsky now. I'll be happy to support an RW lynch tomorrow.

[Trotsky]

zaphod, you can shout meta all day long and prove nothing. why can't you be arsed to answer a very simple question that was asked on page

two

?

it is very much a waste of a post to restate your position and add absolutely nothing new, except to make even more clear that you have no intention of answering for yourself.

I think we should lynch Trotsky now. I'll be happy to support an RW lynch tomorrow.

getting all of your ducks in a row i see

[populartajo]

Im an expert analyzing this. My comments on bold and analyzing just the odds of scumpartnership with shaftedelvis.

God this game mechanic is painful.

RW for the love of God could you PLEASE not quote entire walls of text to reply with one line. PLEASE!@!!

Null here, RR slightly townie here for the difficult to fake frustration

Yos

You're grandstanding that all this resistance to your RW case indicates he's being protected by scum buddies. Yet many game players haven't posted since your case. Furthermore, the problem people have with your RW case is not the case itself it's your apparenty hypocrisy. You state that it's imperative that town lynch 2-3 times this action phase, list PtA as your second suspect, state you'd be happy with his lynch, but derail the wagon on PtA to push your RW case. This is clearly a logical inconsistency. Also most of your RW case surrounds the A&B vote shenanigans. I'd be amazed if you don't recall RW's voting on your wagon in Alpha.

Yos slightly townie here for the first case in his list and the time dedicated to his "apparent hypocrisy".

Orto

Your back and forth with Yos is stifling game conversation. While I feel your points are valid, you're sidetracking discussion which is antitown. I also don't like that you feel the need to reply to every single point against you. Do you still find PtA most likely scum? If so is Yos a likely buddy or a misguided townie?

Orto scummy here. SWSSC agress that he has valid points but also he is called antitown. The last two questions feel fabricated.

PtA

You're still tunneling. Tunneling is not a PtA town tell.

Read other posts to see how hard SWSSC pushed here.

RW

For the love of God...see above. I'm getting a townish read off of RW for what it matters.

Null here, see above

J-Scope

Thanks for sharing the tidbit about falsifying logs. This is townie points for J-Scope. Although if scum, he might just not feel like being bothered to create fake logs However, what do you like about Trotsky's Zaphod case? There's nothing there.

slightly townie for the smiley and the townie points

Zaph

I obviously agree with your point against Yos, but what about the rest of the game. More input please.

slightly scummy for the agreement against yos and the call for more input

Ojando

Ojando is feeling off to me. I can't put a finger on it, need more content.

Ojando null here. SWSSC wanted to make him look bad but witj no reasoning.

Frog Dodging

I find it amusing that you make a case against Zmd for being out in their own little world by focusing on Trotsky. Yet you don't notice that his target Trotsky is doing the same exact thing barely playing the game and trying to push a case on Zaphod. In your experience do you think it more or less likely scum-Zmd would be pushing a pointless case on a a scumpartner? That said I do feel Zmd needs some pressure and I like your posting overall.

Frog comes slightly townie here. Seems like SWSSC is trying to convince him.

Trotsky

Your answer to my querry is lacking.

the vig claim would obviously be stupid as mafia, it was from zaphod's initial ignorance of the a+b wagon that we suspected her, and the sudden switch and hard push on it implied hard bussing--which we would expect dgbscum to do in such a case.

This still doesn't address why you would then ask A&B to kill Zaphod. At that point in time you knew A&B was very unlikely mafia, you just admitted as such.

Trotsky comes slightly townie here. I dont see bussing. SWSSC is pushing a decent case against him.

[J-Scope]

Gee, J-scope, now that Alpha is over you can add in the details to your fake daytalk from that game, please do so....

You can't trust any of the PMs or QTs I made in alpha because they were fake, and I had faked the censored beta stuff too to make it look more realistic.

I didn't say anything substantial about beta in the QT because alpha was the main game at the time of my posts whereas beta was only around page 3. After about the first week I had accepted that K-Scope and I weren't going to be playing as one person so I didn't confer anything with him.

Here is the only post I mentioned beta though. It was the first post of the QuickTopic:

Hi. I realized that we should probably have some kind of private communication.

Let me know if I'm talking too much or looking too wishy-washy. There are some things that we should probably decide on together before we post. You can rein me in if I'm saying something stupid on alpha.

In alpha, I'm starting to pressure Ortohoops and I feel like an Apples/Banana vote or a Trotsky vote could be orchestrated. Pesco could be the biggest target now but I don't know if we should join that bandwagon now. We are already tied to them through Incamnito though. What do you think?

In beta, we need to post something but I can't think of a worthwhile thing to say.

Aww, look at me trying to setup a mislynch
That post was made April 28 which correlates to page 3 of beta. You can guess that I had been waiting for K-Scope to talk to me before I made anything more than a random vote, which is why my first substantial post didn't happen until April 29.

[Raging Wishbone]

Gee, J-scope, now that Alpha is over you can add in the details to your fake daytalk from that game, please do so....

You can't trust any of the PMs or QTs I made in alpha because they were fake, and I had faked the censored beta stuff too to make it look more realistic.

I didn't say anything substantial about beta in the QT because alpha was the main game at the time of my posts whereas beta was only around page 3. After about the first week I had accepted that K-Scope and I weren't going to be playing as one person so I didn't confer anything with him.

Here is the only post I mentioned beta though. It was the first post of the QuickTopic:

Hi. I realized that we should probably have some kind of private communication.

Let me know if I'm talking too much or looking too wishy-washy. There are some things that we should probably decide on together before we post. You can rein me in if I'm saying something stupid on alpha.

In alpha, I'm starting to pressure Ortohoops and I feel like an Apples/Banana vote or a Trotsky vote could be orchestrated. Pesco could be the biggest target now but I don't know if we should join that bandwagon now. We are already tied to them through Incamnito though. What do you think?

In beta, we need to post something but I can't think of a worthwhile thing to say.

Aww, look at me trying to setup a mislynch
That post was made April 28 which correlates to page 3 of beta. You can guess that I had been waiting for K-Scope to talk to me before I made anything more than a random vote, which is why my first substantial post didn't happen until April 29.

Very cool Bro, please post a screencap, so we can match it to Alpha screencap?

[Zmd]

"Feh, ZMD's most recent post is sparse and almost purely responsive. Everything about his post is watered down and galvanized only by questions. Even his case and vote are forced in order to refute ShaftedSex."

That's how I play. I respond to things that either stand out or are directed at me.

I'm tempted to vote for ZMD here. Again, they are nowhere near where the actual discussion is happening. They're off in their own little world - which is a comfortable position to be in for scum. They have their suspect, who's unlikely to be lynched, so they can simply leave their vote there for a while. They're not in the thick of a great debate, so they're not going to be questioned too heavily. All they need to do is make a post every once in a while re-affirming their support of a trotsky wagon.
In this game I do it on Santos, partly so I don't have to comment on the wagon on my scumbuddy. In this game I had planned to do it on elmo, my scumpartner (but then ended up lurking instead. Whoops!) You can see it starting, though, if you look at my posts in isolation. This one I do it on alexhans, my scumpartner. It's so much easier to play as scum if you don't have to pay attention to the game.

Just to your chosen vote.

So basically my choices for scum are unlikely to be lynched, so I should mindlessly follow everyone else? Riiiiight.

You have a point, shaft.ed, about trotsky. With ZMD it feels worse because ZMD has also been lurking all game, whereas trostky was relatively active and involved at the beginning - the

only

thing zmd has done is push that wagon.

Walls-O-Text tend to make me less interested in games. But I'm pushing Trotsky/Ortohoops/Hogfather as scum because that was my impression when I made my original read.

And you are a paragon of contribution, and definitely not lurking whatsoever! You're attacking someone who

barely posted at all

for posting more than needed in the first couple of pages while ignoring PTA who posted completely useless posts early on. What are you smoking, and where can I get some?

I just read Trotsky as scummier.

This is a well-qualified and great piece of analysis. POSITIVELY RIVETING

I can't post my opinions now?

And I think he made a vote I didn't like the timing of.

Well, your honour, I think he might've gone done something I didn't quite cotton to at that point! Ayup!

So you want me to ignore what caught my attention earlier?

I love how when it's pointed out he didn't vote after naming his suspects he gets RIGHT ON VOTING RIGHT THEN AND THERE. I'd also like to note that all of Zmd's votes so far have been on someone with 0 votes. It's like he's trying to blatantly avoid looking like a bandwagoner and trying to avoid any possible connection to anyone else at all. PAAAARANOIA

I voted because I usually like having a vote out. Didn't realize I forgot to vote before. And I voted my top suspect regardless of the number of votes.

Apparently I also want to note that zmd's posts are noticeably less detailed and whatnot than in alpha.

Sorry. I need to stop being lazy with Walls-O-Text.

-----------------------------

Yos, what makes me look cautious?

-----------------------------

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (0)
3. Zmd (0)
4. Trotsky(2): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
9. sex w/ shafteds wife club(0):
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (0):
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):