Open 557: Deck of Stacks [Game Over]

[Cheery Dog]

Votecount 4.02

SeeEmpty

(2) Not_Mafia, zMuffinMan

zMuffinMan 

(1) SeeEmpty

Not Voting

(2) CrashTextDummie, Singersigner


With 5 Alive, 3 vote are required to lynch
Deadline: Wednesday, July 10, 2014, at 00:30 AM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2014-07-11 21:54:55)

[singersigner]

936 is also a somewhat standard scum play

"oh, hey, i think muffin is scum but i better leave myself an out for when he flips town"

Vote: SeeEmpty

I think that would be more accurate if it wasn't down to the wire. If he really is down to PoA with one confirmed town, being dense about your options isn't really optimal.

[zMuffinMan]

I think his level of engagement has been pretty lackluster across all players occupying the slot

*shrug* i replaced in with 48 hours before the end of D2, and i have about the same amount of posts as any of the players who've been in the game since the very beginning. i can't really say much about the dudes i replaced, but i'm 93% certain they were town (with a margin of error of +/-7%)

i had some RL issues that prevented me from being active last week (which, ironically, was a contributing factor in my mislynch in a just-finished mini) but i don't think i've been disengaged at all

Most damning though is beastcharizards treatment of the slot on D1, voting him early in the day, maintaining a scum read but being unwilling to join the wagon when it actually had momentum, even going so far as proposing a SeeEmpty wagon instead on whom he had little to say previously. And then when Muffin replaced into the game, he immediately complimented him for "very town" play, like he was itching to town read the slot.

meh, i can't really control how scum interacts with me

it's obvious he was staying clear of the wagon on me so that he could say something like, "oh hey, you guys are fucking dumb, shoulda lynched talah!" or something if my slot did actually get lynched. scum were in a comfortable position at the point of my replace in. they could have stayed clear of both the katen and BE wagons and watched town implode on itself (and two of them did choose to do that)

as for beast calling me town, meh. can't really say anything about that. he was obviously buddying me. from a theory point of view, that's good traitor play i suppose, since it implicates me and there's not much i can do about it. same with him avoiding my wagon, i guess (though i'd argue it'd be extremely stupid for scum to ever make their interactions with a buddy that obvious, so really, it should be rather obvious what was going on)

[zMuffinMan]

also

We are assuming that the scum mistook Despo for the vig, right? That they had role copped neither myself nor Despo, distrusted their traitor's read on me and thought Despo was trying to throw them off his trail with his twilight posting? I'd like some feedback on this because it's kind of a mystifying to me that they didn't put two and two together.

now that i think about it, that's pretty strong evidence that i'm town

unless you think i'm so dumb and blind that i missed the obvious implication of the conversation i had with desp at the end of yesterday (i.e. both he and i practically claimed not vig when we had the same thoughts about beastcharizard's post-hammer comment implying he was a rolecop)

scum either didn't really read the conversation we had or didn't realise the implications of it

[zMuffinMan]

also, just throwing it out there, outside of maybe nacho, desp is probably the player with the most experience playing with/against me as town/scum. the fact that he wasn't even wary of me here is also pretty strong evidence i'm town

i'm pretty sure a seeempty lynch ends the game and i would rather not drag this out another day

[Cheery Dog]

Prodding SeeEmpty

[CrashTextDummie]

I'd like to hear some feedback from singersinger if she was serious about wanting to do some reading. Fresh pair of eyes and all that.

[SeeEmpty]

lol.

that was literally just me not reading setup and derping.

plus even if i were scum, why would i "vaguely hint" that i know about that?

Well, you can always give whatever reason you want and there is no way to proof if you're really derping or you slipped. The way I see it is that you somehow know there is a BP in the scum team when that is not certainly the case.

meh, i can't really control how scum interacts with me

it's obvious he was staying clear of the wagon on me so that he could say something like, "oh hey, you guys are fucking dumb, shoulda lynched talah!" or something if my slot did actually get lynched. scum were in a comfortable position at the point of my replace in. they could have stayed clear of both the katen and BE wagons and watched town implode on itself (and two of them did choose to do that)

That, or he is trying to give a hint to you that he's your traitor buddy.

At this stage, I'm almost sure the last scum is zMuffinMan. All he is doing now is throwing WIFOM left and right and try to call himself town using those WIFOM. Feels to me that he is just trying to survive another day to use his most cunning manipulation skills.

Also, I'm a VT. Since it is 4T1S we can afford another mislynch. But before the lynch is reached I'd to know everyone's top 2 scum picks, especially from singersigner and Not_Mafia. I know for a fact that my lynch will be a mislynch, and CTD will eat lead tonight. If everyone is in sync that it is {SeeEmpty - zMuffinMan} then I'd feel better about my mislynch.

[singersigner]

Hmm, so I ISOed both beast and Justin...

Town:
Pasch
Talah
Kat

Leaning town:
mlearn2
p_a

null:
everyone not mentioned above or below

leaning scum:
PiM
voidwalker

scum:
tn

My personal current order (outside of Pasch) would be, from least to most scummy:

Talah
SeeEmpty
penguin_alien
Desperado
finglove
mlearn2
beastcharizard
Voidwalker
tn5421
Katengecchi

I feel like these probably make me lean toward SeeEmpty alone? Some of beast's other posts make me lean toward that conclusion as well. If it's Not_Mafia then gg.

[singersigner]

Sorry, I kind of forgot about this game for a hot second. I don't really have a whole lot of other input other than that.

As for SeeEmpty's last post... why do our top two scumpicks matter at this point if you're a mislynch? Are you convinced I'm town, then? What about Not_Mafia?

[zMuffinMan]

The way I see it is that you somehow know there is a BP in the scum team when that is not certainly the case

i get that you have to twist every little thing to make it look like i'm scum but you're not even really thinking critically about the stuff you're saying

either i knew the setup, or i didn't. if i knew the setup, why would i make the clearly incorrect statement that scum don't choose BP? if your answer is "because scum chose BP" then clearly i am wrong about the setup. if your answer is "because scum didn't choose BP" then... clearly i am wrong about the setup.

That, or he is trying to give a hint to you that he's your traitor buddy

again, i get that you have to twist every little thing, but in what way could that even be considered a hint? lots of people called me town after my entrance into the game

(ignoring the fact that a majority of players i know consider it standard traitor play to bus your team as a means of hinting to them that you know who they are)

[zMuffinMan]

All he is doing now is throwing WIFOM left and right and try to call himself town using those WIFOM

also if this is referring to stuff i said about desp, then you clearly don't know what WIFOM means

there is no WIFOM in those statements, merely assumptions you'd have to make in order to think i'm scum

[SeeEmpty]

Sorry, I kind of forgot about this game for a hot second. I don't really have a whole lot of other input other than that.

As for SeeEmpty's last post... why do our top two scumpicks matter at this point if you're a mislynch? Are you convinced I'm town, then? What about Not_Mafia?

Talah/Not_Mafia slot has been a town read of me the whole game. beastcharizard's 1v1 yesterday is make sense as hoping for Talah's mislynch and him taking a bullet from the vig as a BP to win the game. Him flipping scum further reduces the possibility of Talah's slot being a scum. If Talah is scum then good game for scum team.

Your slot has been my strongest scum read for most of the game until recently. There are something posted by Katen recently that makes me think that I might have mis-read the slot. Still scummy, but much less so. Comparing to Burning_Earth/zMuffinMan slot, Muffin is now much more scummier. Your slot is still one of my top 2 scum picks.

I mainly want to know your's and Not_Mafia's read as both of you are fairly new to the game. You particularly said that you're not going to re-read the game. If not re-reading, then how do you come up with scum reads? I know for a fact that your read on me is wrong, and you don't seem to have another scum read. That's my worries.

From today's look of it, either we lynch Muffin today and win or it is mostly up to you guys to win the game for us tomorrow if I'm mislynched. Hence I'm most concerned about your reads.

either i knew the setup, or i didn't. if i knew the setup, why would i make the clearly incorrect statement that scum don't choose BP? if your answer is "because scum chose BP" then clearly i am wrong about the setup. if your answer is "because scum didn't choose BP" then... clearly i am wrong about the setup.

What you're saying in post #778 is actually "scum don't *get to* choose bulletproof". Yes, you were wrong about "didn't actually realise they could choose bulletproof on top of that", but in a way that it also hints that:

You know your team has a traitor: "everyone knows the scum team has a bulletproof" and "i was looking at the traitor being bulletproof". It makes sense as now we know the scum team didn't recruit the traitor.

As a side note, with the current info we have, I think the scum team have chosen Role Cop and Day Talk. Pretty sure the penguin lynch is a coordinated attack from Justin and zMuffinMan.

again, i get that you have to twist every little thing, but in what way could that even be considered a hint? lots of people called me town after my entrance into the game

Of course you'd call a case against you a twist.

There's a subtle different between people that thinks your'e town.

beastcharizard:"Muffing has taken over the BE slot wonderfully and is being very town." then proceed to further explain:"Your entrance so far is very town. I didn't say you slot is very town. There is a huge difference. I scum read your slot before it was replaced. You have probably brought it to a better standing with what you have done."

Katengecchi:"I like what zMuffinMan has so far and would rather not lynch him right now." and "Town: Pasch, beast, talah, Finglove, CTD, <gap> penguin_alien, zMuffinMan"
Desperado:"If Muffin is town then scum team is likely something like..."
penguin_alien:"At this point I'd vote Finglove if Muffin keeps being townish."

First off, the extra explanation from beast is unnecessary and feels more like a cover up of him towncrediting you than anything. Re-reading that after we know beast's flip makes this even more suspicious. Also, he strong town read your play based on your 2 unexplained scum read and one town read is not making any sense.

Others that town reads you have some reservation. They have some uncertainty in it. Also, their read is directly affecting their decisions on who to vote. This is not seen in Beast's play.

Basically, you know you're scum. You know traitor knows you're scum. Him as a traitor trying to get on your good side is the hint I'm talking about.

also if this is referring to stuff i said about desp, then you clearly don't know what WIFOM means

there is no WIFOM in those statements, merely assumptions you'd have to make in order to think i'm scum

This is what I refer to as WIFOM:

unless you think i'm so dumb and blind that i missed the obvious implication of the conversation i had with desp at the end of yesterday

(i.e. both he and i practically claimed not vig when we had the same thoughts about beastcharizard's post-hammer comment implying he was a rolecop)

This, on the other hand:

also, just throwing it out there, outside of maybe nacho, desp is probably the player with the most experience playing with/against me as town/scum. the fact that he wasn't even wary of me here is also pretty strong evidence i'm town

Is nothing. You're basically using someone that's not in the game anymore as your argument that you're town. Pretty lame.

[zMuffinMan]

.... neither of those statements are wifom and both are true

[zMuffinMan]

those are factual premises

there is no wifom

[Cheery Dog]

Prodding Not_Mafia

[zMuffinMan]

but in a way that it also hints that:

You know your team has a traitor: "everyone knows the scum team has a bulletproof" and "i was looking at the traitor being bulletproof". It makes sense as now we know the scum team didn't recruit the traitor.

... you're kidding, right?

ok

let's say my aim was to hint at that. why?

First off, the extra explanation from beast is unnecessary and feels more like a cover up of him towncrediting you than anything.

....... you do realise i commented on his read and the "extra explanation" was from me prompting it, right?

Also, he strong town read your play based on your 2 unexplained scum read and one town read is not making any sense.

yes, that is how scum buddy town, that is not how a traitor hints to their scum team

[Not_Mafia]

Prodded. I'll answer all this later when I'm not half asleep

[SeeEmpty]

... you're kidding, right?

ok

let's say my aim was to hint at that. why?

Your aim? No. Not your aim. But still that's what you did. You slipped.

....... you do realise i commented on his read and the "extra explanation" was from me prompting it, right?

Yes, only that you didn't explicitly ask why did he read you so, but he went on explaining it anyway. Like from someone that thinks he might be revealing too much info and tries to cover up. A very subtle communication happening there.

yes, that is how scum buddy town, that is not how a traitor hints to their scum team

Maybe that's not how

*you*

would do it. The way I see it, that's what he was trying to do.

[zMuffinMan]

rofl

you're stretching so hard

[singersigner]

CTD halp me interpret all of the things. What do you make of the preliminary reads list both scum posted?

[Cheery Dog]

Prodding CrashTextDummie (as per rule 6c)

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD halp me interpret all of the things. What do you make of the preliminary reads list both scum posted?


CTD halp me interpret all of the things. What do you make of the preliminary reads list both scum posted?

I was kind of hoping you'd be helping me. Maybe color coding (and adding in blanks) will help.

Town:

Pasch

Talah
Kat

Leaning town:
mlearn2

p_a

null:

Desperado
Finglove

SeeEmpty

leaning scum:

PiM

voidwalker

scum:

tn

From personal experience, I know that playing traitor is tricky business, and placing your buddies on reads lists is awkward. He had Playfair's slot as leaning scum and I think he'd want to read at least one of the scum as town or town leaning, so I think SeeEmpty actually looks decent here. What this list mostly highlights is how utterly bizarre his turn against Talah was.

My personal current order (outside of Pasch) would be, from least to most scummy:

Talah
SeeEmpty

penguin_alien
Desperado
finglove

mlearn2

beastcharizard

Voidwalker
tn5421

Katengecchi

Muffin's slot is smack dab in the middle of the list, which is a classic spot to put your buddy. It's an inexact science, but I certainly don't think SeeEmpty is implicated here either. Why did you think so?

In terms of interactions with Playfair, Muffin looks worse to me, particularly on D2.

We're under two hours here. Is anyone really comfortable with no-lynch? Burning Earth, is that what your unvote with no new vote means?

Potentially realizing his buddy would look bad and trying to prod him to prevent that.

Burning Earth, we're under an hour and clearly you didn't like Crash's argument or you wouldn't have taken your vote off tn. That would get us to within one.

Same. He gave the appearance on D2 that he found B_E's behavior here problematic, but it doesn't show yet.

Can you name me some non-powerful PRs?

We'll start with gooncop

Why do you believe a gooncop would be non-powerful in this game?

Still not yet though. He was zoning in on PA.

Also:

Instead of a half-hearted excuse, I'd actually like Burning Earth to outline his thought process and motivation in unvoting the leading wagon and disappearing from the thread with 2 hours to go until deadline.

I would like this too. Very much.

There we go. It's notable to me that he didn't pick this up himself and waited to address this until someone else (me in this case) brought it up. It's a throwaway line in the grand scheme of things where his B_E suspicion is concerned, so definitely feels like it could be distancing.

I like Talah and to a lesser degree SeeEmpty as town.

My gray area, from lightest to darkest is Finglove/Desperado/Crash/Earth/Beast

Curious that B_E surpassed even myself, with whom he argued a hell of a lot more. There's no telling whether he was reading Beast as his traitor here, but probably not. Given B_E's play, that definitely looks like the spot you'd want to put your partner in.

Instead you followed penguin onto Burning Earth. As the second and third votes. Now you might call that a lot of things, but in this situation you certainly can't call it compromise in search of assuring a lynch. In this situation, in fact, it is operatively the exact opposite. A real compromise would have all but assured a lynch of either penguin or katen. You have instead created a situation where unless town is willing to sheep this move you and penguin have made or settle for katen, we get no lynch at all.

Chastising two town players for trying to create a counter wagon to Katen and PA, almost certainly two town wagons. This feels like a pretty underhanded way of trying to put the breaks on a B_E wagon (who was his second darkest grey, mind you).

Time to claim Earth, and to share any last thoughts. This time tomorrow, if nothing else happens, I'll be hammering you. We're not going to no-lynch two days in a row, and as much worse as I think penguin's vote was yours was bad enough and you haven't done anything today to help your cause.

Earth, get in here and say your piece.

Distinct flavor of "if you're not gonna help yourself, I can't help you either."

My vote stays on penguin for now, though. Her behavior around the voting was still more suspicious than BE's, and as near as I can tell we have three wagons with three votes each at the moment. Can't see how adding a fourth at this point would be helpful.

Muffing replaced in and diffused the situation, which Justin doesn't actually acknowledge at all, other than to go back to business as usual. This is actually the last mention of Muffin in his ISO, other than a short bit of interaction where he answers a question.

Overall, I don't get the feeling that he was trying to build up the Muffin slot as a mislynch later on (despite keeping him towards the top of his suspects), or as a potential lynchpin, or as anything else that would indicate Muffin-town. When the slot actually looked like a viable lynch, he was resisting at first before resigning himself. It all looks very scum buddyish to me.

In contrast, he had SeeEmpty as a top town read for practically the whole game, didn't interact at all with him and went out of his way to defend him at a point where he was no where near under the threat of lynch (not that he ever really was until today), and that all looks like buddying a townie who wasn't really problematic in terms of reads.

I'll do this for beastcharizard and both SeeEmpty/Muffin. I realize it probably doesn't matter much, but I recently finished a game where things looked as obvious and rushing cost town the game. So bear with me, please.

[CrashTextDummie]

As an aside, if Muffin is town, he's handling today terribly. SeeEmpty is not really "twisting" anything, he's echoing concerns that I share. I can't tell if Muffin slipped with the whole BP business, but his excuse of "I didn't know the set-up" is a pretty sorry one. For one, it doesn't reflect well on him as far as his engagement (again, even though he denies it) and pro town drive is concerned. Secondly, I find it kind of hard to believe. In the situation we were in, knowing the set up was kind of crucial and I'd expect every member of the town to check up on it at a minimum.

I also think that SeeEmpty's shtick of wanting assurance that the surviving town members will lynch Muffin reads as genuine and altruistic, whereas Muffin looks like he just wants to make it into tomorrow.

More to come.

[singersigner]

Sorry, I'm not really a great replacement. I kind of got into a mafia kick lately and was like HELP ALL OF THE MODS kind of forgetting that most of my strategy replacing in comes down to not reading the game. >_>

I am definitely not great at interpreting things, but think I do a pretty good job at pointing out things I should know mean something, lol. In any case, I felt like having one scum as town/ish and one scum as scum/ish is a pretty standard reads list from scum. That's why I felt gut that SeeEmpty could be scum.

I did forget about the traitor thing, though.