Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!
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-TinVision- Goon
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Second Vote Count of the Day
Oman (2)- iamausername, armlx
dahill1 (1)- Shteven
Not voting (7)- Cipher, dahill1, LaptopGun, Oman, Rigel, The Fonz, vollkan
Thanks to iamausername and also Shteven for alerting me to vote count errors. Still seeking replacement for Rigel.Last edited by -TinVision- on Tue May 13, 2008 9:16 am, edited 3 times in total.-
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dahill1 bagel
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ARGH! i just had a big post on Oman, but i lost it!
anyways i'll sum up my argument. first, (although it was the joke phase) he suggests that scum kill the most analytical players. next, he clearly OMGUS's Phate, and even says "This isn't an OMGUS". i agree with the person who said that "just because you say it's not an OMGUS, doesn't mean it isn't."
next, Oman votes for Kabeven though he hasn't even mentioned him before!. later, he continues to push for a Kab lynch, and still has given no reasons. also, he assumes that Justin investigated either Phate or Farside and got a guilty. Oman, why do you think that?
Ok, this is a major point. When SC jumped on the wagon, Oman said that it look more newbie to him and that he thought he was just following the crowd because he was a newbie. then, he votes SC for lurking, but goes on to say that he "isn't sold on the SC lynch".-
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Shteven Goon
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I find this fairly suspect. You had talked about oman and made a brief case against him, and mentioned a few other players in a positive light before this line. Then you say lynch username and oman. This was the very first, and very last, time you mentioned iamausername.armlx wrote: dahill (well, those he replaced) are sorta null to me. Wouldn't say he is town, but lynch username and Oman first by far. Things like FOSing then double posting to Vote Space are throwing me off.
It's also odd that you end up joining iamausername's wagon on Oman. That itself is probably fine, and voting with someone who you personally don't trust is also fine. Scum sometimes have to bus their partners, he could be the SK, he could be mafia hunting the SK, anything.
But making a suggestion to lynch someone without reason and then joining them on a wagon to vote for the leading wagon of the day? Sure it's only two votes but I've also expressed doubts about Oman and there's good reason to believe his wagon may be swift. There's a few too many pieces here to chalk this all up to coincidence.
You're finished on the reread, but haven't mentioned anything about yourself. LML did some suspicious things as well, and I know I've certainly mentioned them. I believe a few other people have commented as well. He may not be a leading candidate, but I'd certainly appreciate a reply.
In hindsight I don't think dahill1 is our best choice for today.
Unvote. Vote: armlx"I'm like the customer support line for life."
Carpe Diem. If you shake it hard enough, maybe money will fall out!-
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Shteven Goon
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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What is your post even about? Your quote doesn't even match up with what you are talking about.
Would you like to try that post from the top and make it comprehensible?
Also, while I can't really accurately answer for LML, would you mind pointing me to where these issues are enumerated? Quite frankly its about what I would expect from him, as he is on my short list of policy vigs (aka N0 kill them as vig) for good reason.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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LaptopGun Goon
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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The Fonz Jack of All Trades
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To begin with, a quick note on the Spacecase wagon. Since we have two left, the most likely configuration, imho, is one on and one off. The potential reward for scum of getting SC to night, where he was likely to be investigated, was huge. See my play in Mafia 50: ready salted,where I tie myself far too close to YogurtBandit, who had a powerful scum role, but was playing like a complete tool.
Therefore, there is likely to be at least one scum off the wagon- unsure where the other would be.
So I'll start with those not voting SC at all:
Wesaq/dahill:
Wesaq didn't do too much.
dahill's entrance I found questionable, as noted before: he seemed to think Jesse had been caught in a lie, and yet only FoSed him because 'Justin musta had some reason.'
Thinks SC/Phate are most suspicious
This post still makes my head hurt. For starters, it involves an explanation of not doing something because it would get him votes. Secondly. it still doesn't explain why Justin's thoughts were at all relevant if you think someone was caught in a lie.dahill1 wrote:...but not if the other cop doesn't suspect him
and also imagine if i did vote for jesse. everyone would have gone after me for voting the cop (after he claimed).
Distancing whilst keeping options open...?dahill1 wrote:i wasn't using it as a second argument, i'm just saying it's possible that SC could not be lynched if something suspicious turns up.
dahill1 wrote: you're right we should focus attention where necessary, but i think right now that spacecase probably will be scum, and my only other suspicion is phate. we should lynch either phate or spacecase, and then depending on their role, look back on connections, etc.@Dahill: care to do so, then?
As before, SC appeals to authority 'the two people voting Phate are the cop and the 'confirmed townie.'dahill1 wrote:phate is starting to look like a good vote for me, if the SC wagon is slowing down
i'm also sort of getting cold feet about SC and the two people voting for phate so far are the cop and confirmed townie
The interesting thing here is that dahill looks scummy at this point in the game, but it's in a way that appears to be incompatible with spacecase-scum. It looks like dahill is scummily going after spacecase with bad arguments. It's quite some achievement, actually, to go from looking like you're scum railroading someone to look like a potential buddy in the course of a day.
Then the infamous 'SC wagon is slowing' vote, which was pretty brazen, since it was only a short time since he'd been put at L-1.
Let's put this in context. dahill unvoted SC in the first place because the wagon was 'slowing' and he had phate and SC close to each other in his scum rankings. Now Phate claims doc, dahill says that new leads have come up which mean he's unsure about going back to SC- and shortly after, he goes to Rigel (accusing him of being overdefensive, my opinion on which should be obvious). This to me is the biggest point against dahill. As soon as one counterwagon becomes untenable, whoops, what should happen but a new suspect come along to give an excuse not to vote spacecase.dahill1 wrote:Shteven wrote:Little point in lynching a claimed doctor. I'll go back to spacecase then.
Unvote: Phate, Vote: Spacecaseunvotebut i'm a little unsure about voting SC again with all of these new suspects
Words fail me with regard to the first part of this, tbh. The second is another 'i can't do this because it'll look scummy.'dahill1 wrote:i would vote SC but only if i know he's definitely going to be lynched
also, i'd probably be pegged as wishy washy and scummy if i switched my vote now
The case against Rigel is now BETTER than on SC?dahill1 wrote: also, IMO the case against Rigel is better than SC's
This, imho, is extremely plausible newbie scum behaviour. Bus your partner until he's on the brink, unvote based on a crap reason, go after another player, and then scrabble around for an excuse to vote someone else when your intended victim claimed doc. It could easily have worked, too, given that I think Rigel would probably have ended up dead had SC not disappeared and turned up to vote to save himself. I would be entirely comfortable with a dahill lynch.
SSF/PDNE/LML/armlx
SSF attacks Jesse-cop day one, but I can't really blame him. His arguments are decent.
SSF is one of the pushers of the Kab wagon. Spends a lot of time talking about game theory.
Nothing in SSF's play gives me a strong read either way.
Perfection says nothing of note.
LML makes some decent observations about farside.
Plays up the likelihood of the 'clearing play-' I really don't think it's that likely.
So he makes a good-ish case on farside, then jumps off onto Rigel because Rigel defends farside.
Major pusher of the Rigel wagon. Says almost sweet FA about Spacecase.
Verdict: There are certainly things that could be construed as scummy here, but I'm getting a 'genuine conviction' vibe. The case against him comes down to 'mistrust of Jesse/Cipher' and pushing the Rigel wagon. However, bear in mind the Rigel wagon is largely his doing- there were other, more viable counterwagons, and he wouldn't have to do the spadework himself on those. I don't think he's today's lynch.
OMAN
Let me start by saying he needs replacement. (I replaced him in another game over a week ago).
I'm not sure what Oman's implying here: it sounds a lot like he's FOSing phate for suggesting that it might be suspicious that Jessie survives, and then IGMEOY's Jesse himself, for 'that coincidence.' Now, he might be referring to the coincidence of investigating the dead player- but it sounds more like he's flat-out contradicting himself, trying to have his cake and eat it by accusing Jesse, and Phate for accusing Jesse.Oman wrote:
Mighty coincidental, I mean, I certainly am not holding the fact that Jessie survived against him/her, as Fonz said , lotsa possible docs here.FoS: Phatefor that, andIGMEOY: Jessiefor that conicendence.
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The question here is whether Oman would have voted Phate for voting anyone ELSE for that 'terrible reason.' OMGUS is inherently unprovable. It was, to be fair, a pretty bad reason, but I'm not sure if it was voteworthy.Oman wrote: I'm going to upgrade my fos to aVote PhateMostly for his terrible vote on me (no, this is not OMGUS, he voted me for a really poor reason).
Five straight filler posts have the alarm bells ringing.
This somewhat gives me the impression of trying to convince an SK to off vollkan. Makes Oman more likely to be scum in my eyes, and less likely to be SK, fwiw. In fact, that entire post is horrible. Votes Kab based on someone else's reasoning, gets arsey with me asking him to explain what he meant in a previous post i found confusing, and then says the bit above.Oman wrote: I am against the connection between Kabenon and vollkan, I myself have versed Vollkan as scum (he shot himself). And he is a DANGEROUS scum player, not only can he hide well, the sheer weight of his words convinces a lot of players.
Scummy, floats the idea to see if anyone bites.Oman wrote:Wow.
So thats one cop.
I'm starting to doubt our previous cop's truthery.
Initially defends SC (and somewhat strawmans the case against him...0Oman wrote:I don't think hammering that last wagon is a huge scumtell, Kab was crying for it, and he would've been deadlined anyway.
Jumps on SC for lurking.
Defends the wagon. Oman gets some townpoints here, since 'growing too fast' usually = scum defending buddy on the quiet.Oman wrote:I'm with farside, its not growing too fast at all.
Another cake/eating juxtaposition where he says in one post that MCD/SC look like buddies, and the next where he says:
Oman wrote:
That was obviously a joke. Now, I'm not OMGUSing him. I'm simply saying that last line looks like scum. The thing is, it only holds if Spacecase turns up town, so I promise you, if he comes up town, MCD gets a vote. If he comes up scum...I'll look elsewhere.
Oman has previously attacked the idea of a connection between wagon speed and innocence/guilt of its target.Oman wrote:Wagon slowing.
Makes me wonder.
I might unvote.
Then says he didn't really mean it...Oman wrote:
Meh. I assumed you guys were smart enough to realise that I don't really unvote people I think are scum.Rigel wrote:the slowing wagon makes him think that Spacecase is town and so he might unvote. But he never comes out and says this.
This is on a player HE'S ALREADY VOTING.Oman wrote:I haven't really been reading Rigel heavily. I'm on my mobile so I won't be reading. if anyone doesn't mind showing me why they think he is town/scum, I would love to read it over the next few days.
Little content, switching to save the GF, and clear contradictions amount to aVote: Oman.
Next up, the uninvestigated non-SC defenders.-
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dahill1 bagel
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Ok, rereading Spacecase, the only people he really went after were the now confirmed townies and Wesaq (which is technically me). You can interpret that however you want but I think in this game he's just trying to lynch all innocents, and not going for bussing just yet.
Regarding my reluctance on the SC wagon, there's not much I can say besides I honestly thought he was not scum. I know, it lookedreallybad for me when he came up as the GF. Especially when I was so hesitant to join his wagon again. I saw the case against him, but I believed the other cases to be stronger so I jumped on those.
Also,Vote Oman, I forgot to in my previous post.-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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Things I don't like about Oman:
Skating through the early game.
FOSing everyone with no real vote at the time basically gives him free reign to hop on any of the above wagons.Oman wrote:Okay, I'm back from my holidays guys (I'll change the sig soon )
I missed the whole of D1, but firstly I'm astounded that Jessie claimed D1, and then investigated the townie that died.
Mighty coincidental, I mean, I certainly am not holding the fact that Jessie survived against him/her, as Fonz said , lotsa possible docs here.FoS: Phatefor that, andIGMEOY: Jessiefor that conicendence.
FoS Laptop GunFor somehow getting "SK" out of Phates post, stinks of knowledge.
Terrible defense against a valid vote, just trying to invalidate it without reason.Oman wrote:
Thats a horrible Day 2 vote.Phate wrote:Vote: Oman because his casual FoS on me smells like swaying with public opinion.
No, definitely is OMGUS. Phate was one of the most townish people to me at this point (I don't read revealed roles until they come up in thread).Oman wrote:Well, my belief currently is that vollkan is right, and so is LTG. Basically: We should speculate, by no means give Jessie a free pass, but definatly Keep our eyes on.
I'm going to upgrade my fos to aVote PhateMostly for his terrible vote on me (no, this is not OMGUS, he voted me for a really poor reason).
At the time of this post, Oman had made 1 serious vote all game.Oman wrote:The problem with voting as mafia is 1) it solidifys your position and 2) the bold sticks out.
2 things I don't like here: The kabenon wagon and the vollkan comment later. The first might be because I have seen kabenon die 3 times as vanilla townie to date with similar behavior and found him to be pretty obvious town as such, the later because everything I have heard about vollkan is the opposite and it reeks of "Phear the good player" logic.Oman wrote:Justin has convinced me (not to mention that arrogant tone that Kabenon used just cries for one of these).Vote Kabenon
The Fonz: Are you opposed to me? Earlier I stated a thought on mafia theory and you gave a "please explain" and then you (I suppose Jokingly) did it again. Do you disagree with my point of view or think me scum or something?
I am against the connection between Kabenon and vollkan, I myself have versed Vollkan as scum (he shot himself). And he is a DANGEROUS scum player, not only can he hide well, the sheer weight of his words convinces a lot of players.
His 40 minute thought post seems to me like over justification of his actions.
Suggests a strong farside connection given his attack on Phate earlier and then Phate's later confirmation of scum.Oman wrote:Hmm, good point. I'd be willing to assume he investigated one of phate and farside guilty.
It worth lynching them both (/viging one) of course, pre-set lynches can always be changed ad hoc.
Oman wrote:
I did not consider this. /Retract.farside wrote:Why would you assume that when he didn't vote for either one of us.
Ah, it just seems like a lot of effort for scum to actually JUMP on a wagon that is already going to deadline lynch. I see what you mean though, its quite a jump.Shteven wrote:It's not only that he hammered, but also the way he did it.
THIS is a good point, he searched for a reason, the guilty mind.Vollkan wrote:The important thing here is that the reason he finds for hammering is something very dodgy.
Now, to me, this just looks newbie. Like he was following the crowd more.Spacecase wrote:And adding to my point is (correct me if im wrong) that volkan even said he was a decent lynch
Phate wrote:I don't think randomly lynching among people the cop talked about is a good idea, Oman.
I'm shocked you take that position.Shteven wrote:His day 2 discussion was on[/b], Kab, and farside22.Phate
Damn I hate to talk before the person has answered. but this actually references a previous point. I think its newbie.Vollkan wrote:I fail to see how my thoughts on this are relevant at all to your actions.
That defence being said: The hammer is damn interesting. I'm going to review this "180".
I cut out a theory section here, but he jumps off his farside comment very quickly, defends Space, and for some reason that Shteven response seems to rub me the wrong way.
His next posts regarding the Spacecase wagon seem to imply a wishy-washy stance, then he diverts to farside again.
Massive scuminess in FOSing someone because they didn't want to rush a lynch before the person could respond.
Pushing the lynch on weak logic is not good given the alignment, as its an easy excuse to jump off, his response to the allegations of OMGUS seems off, same with the discussion of WIFOMing out of a wagon.Oman wrote:
Two reasons. Vollkan put it better, and by that time he was already lurking.MCD wrote:why wasn't it interesting when you weren't buying it in your response to Shteven?
Since when can newbies not be scum? I felt the reversal was NOT a newbie scumtell, I felt lurking was.MCD wrote:So, you say multiple times that you believe that SC is just a newb, but then turn around and vote him for lurking?
Look, town or scum, it doesn't really bother me. I think he is likely to be scum (like I said, newbie town doesn't lurk when under review like this), but either way, he's anti-town. Yes, I am a "lynch all lurkers" and yes if he claimed vig or something I'd unvote him.MCD wrote:As you've not weighed in on the rest of the case against SC (other than to dispute it) this would lead me to believe that you believe that SC is a lurking townie, right?
But not because of what others are doing, because of my own rules.MCD wrote:Once quite a few other folks were talking about SC's quick 180, however, you figured you'd hop on that wagon.
I don't understand. On what is essentially a weak wagon, why would I jump on? It would be much easier, as a scumbuddy, to refute this wagon 'till death and use WIFOM to escape. I've done it before...I think.MCD wrote:If anybody looks to be scumbuddies with SC, I'd say you're a pretty good candidate....
LTG wrote: Oman just pulled a thinly veiled OMGUS. This looks fascinating. FOS OmanHoS LTGI think you're scum.
That was obviously a joke. Now, I'm not OMGUSing him. I'm simply saying that last line looks like scum. The thing is, it only holds if Spacecase turns up town, so I promise you, if he comes up town, MCD gets a vote. If he comes up scum...I'll look elsewhere.
I'm a fan of the LAL meta.Schteven wrote:his defense of spacecase followed by joining it based on lurking is very suspect.
Do I have to say it again....I think I will: I only reversed my postion on him when the situation changed. I also think you should change your diagram (innocent newbie -> lurking newbie).MCD wrote:His quick reversal on Spacecase (innocent newbie -> lurking scum) makes him suspect.
NEWBIES CAN BE SCUM TOO!! YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM IS THIS THOUGHT THAT "NEWBIE" ALWAYS MEANS TOWN. NEW PEOPLE CAN BE SCUM ABOUT 1/3 OF THE TIME. RAWRRRRRR!
However, theres one town tell here: Setting up the anti-town logic on someone who if he was mafia he would know wouldn't show up as town and he wouldn't have to talk out of that scenario like that. Definitely not major enough to blank out the rest of his posts at all though.
Nothing major up till this
.....Oman wrote:Wagon slowing.
Makes me wonder.
I might unvote.
A wagon slowing in that scenario does not imply town. It implies scum that isn't getting piled on / bussed very hard, and he is looking for a weak excuse to unvote.
The rest of the day he spends time playing both sides of the wagon, looking for an out while still being aggressive. Finds said out in the Rigel wagon, where he Votes/FOS's 2 non-Spacecase people.
He later admits
after he hops on the wagon.Oman wrote:I haven't really been reading Rigel heavily. I'm on my mobile so I won't be reading. if anyone doesn't mind showing me why they think he is town/scum, I would love to read it over the next few days.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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iamausername Mafia Scum
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LaptopGun Goon
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You and the other people investigating Oman do bring up a lot of new and "old but people let it drop" info about. Oman has acted really inconsitantly: with fluff posts, fluff posts masquarading as critical commentary, and the afterformentioned wanting things both ways.
This is what I was looking for earlier. I have not seen anything overtly anti-town from Volkan. I think your interpretation of begging an SK kill is very plausible.The Fonz wrote:
Five straight filler posts have the alarm bells ringing.
This somewhat gives me the impression of trying to convince an SK to off vollkan. Makes Oman more likely to be scum in my eyes, and less likely to be SK, fwiw. In fact, that entire post is horrible. Votes Kab based on someone else's reasoning, gets arsey with me asking him to explain what he meant in a previous post i found confusing, and then says the bit above.Oman wrote: I am against the connection between Kabenon and vollkan, I myself have versed Vollkan as scum (he shot himself). And he is a DANGEROUS scum player, not only can he hide well, the sheer weight of his words convinces a lot of players.
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Looking at our two prime suspects at this juncture, Oman has a longer history of strange crap. Dahil has had some crazy behavior, but he has shown a willingness to address things. I raised my questions aft the time and he answered them seemingly truthfully. I dont trust him completely, but he seems to at least not tried to skate through the times and discussions when he's been here.Shoot first and you're a war hero. Shoot last and you're a casualty.-
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-TinVision- Goon
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Shteven Goon
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Sorry if my previous post had been confusing, armlx. I still wouldn't mind hearing a bit more on why you thought username was one of your top two suspects and what you think about him vs Oman (presumably oman is your choice after reading post 910).
But you won't have to work very hard as I do feel that Oman is going to be the better case. I just fos'ed him and fonz/armlx did all the work, too. Easier for me
I don't want to shift my vote yet as he's going to be replaced, and I'll wait for that."I'm like the customer support line for life."
Carpe Diem. If you shake it hard enough, maybe money will fall out!-
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Shteven Goon
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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Shteven Goon
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@Mod: Minor issue but you have two extra people in the above vote count (post 900). Armlx is correctly voting but LML was replaced and can be taken off the not voting section, and I'm also listed as voting and not voting."I'm like the customer support line for life."
Carpe Diem. If you shake it hard enough, maybe money will fall out!-
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Shteven Goon
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Armlx: Ok, I understand that username is less scumy than Oman, but why is he more scummy than say, the Fonz (arbitrarily selected player)? You haven't listed any reasons as to why he's #2. Only that he's still for some reason ahead of dahill1.
I'm beginning to give the impression you wanted to throw some dirt without getting attention, but perhaps I'm jumping on it a bit too much."I'm like the customer support line for life."
Carpe Diem. If you shake it hard enough, maybe money will fall out!-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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Shteven Goon
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You've yet again managed to not give any reason why username is suspicious.
Are the rest of all idyllic angels of pro-townness and he's just strongly pro-town? I don't understand. If he's #2 there should be a reason."I'm like the customer support line for life."
Carpe Diem. If you shake it hard enough, maybe money will fall out!-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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-TinVision- Goon
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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dahill1 bagel
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