Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[Surye]

Could we get a prod on Bamboomancer.

Surye: Who do you even suspect. You claimed a few posts back that you've been trying to contribute to scum hunting, yet this entire game day your focus has been on the Vezo issue. With twenty pages of content, who looks bad to you?

You asked me to answer, and obviously, I like Furcolow as scum right now. I was trying to resolve my internal conflict with the issues how to deal with the vez VT claim, and figure out how to get on a scumhunting track. I obviously wasn't doing a great job of that.

[Yosarian2]

The really quick wagon on him too, bull. If he was scum, where was the counterwagon? I mean, until the Furc thing no one got beyond what... three votes? It was boom boom boom policy. I just dont see that happening without scum flinching.

Eh, I don't really buy that argument.

First of all, I'm not sure I accept "the scum would have flinched if the town tried to lynch their buddy Vez." Considering the way Vez played so far this game, bussing him would seem a pretty reasonable option. Secondly, how do you know the scum "haven't flinched"? A fairly large percentage of the people in this game have defended Vez; if he is scum, it's quite possible that he has been defended by some of his buddies.

I'm not convinced that Vez is scum, but your argument for him being town isn't convincing either.

[Medicated Lain]

Alright, I'm fully caught up. I wasn't following closely enough since about page 15, sorry about that.

On Furcolow quick:
I don't like the postings that came on time after being prodded... but as he pointed out, was mentioned other times before that, where he did not respond, so that is not as suspicious. It's perfectly reasonable that he couldn't be here all the time.
Next on quotes:

I just noticed this new attack on Furcolow, and I'm trying to be impartial, but there are evidence that may support his innocence.

1) As you may notice if you search for posts made by him, he didn't post anything* between May 1 and May 6. He may have been V/LA BUT
1b) He never said he'd be V/LA at any point of this game*, supporting the active lurking theory
2) He did show up just in time to answer a vote on him, and he had only made 3 posts before that one

As I am not getting anything satisfactory out of DeathNote (or any more scummy reads) I shall unvote and vote: Furcolow . Let's see how you act with a little more pressure on you. I want answers.

* He didn't post in any of the games he is playing in, and there are several, and he never said he'd be V/LA in any of them. Interpret that as you may. And yes, I know discussion of other games is frowned upon, but I just had to mention these facts.

This newer post is TERRIBLE. It reeks of distancing. It is a completely unprovoked but extensive defense of Furcolow, accompanied by a total sheeping vote on Furcolow and an abandoning of the previous suspicion on DN and mozamis (now CES, iirc). He even said there were no other scummy candidates besides DN, so much so that he was willing to vote for Furcolow, whom he just presented an elaborate, effort-extensive defense of and professed no conviction that Furc was actually scum with the vote. What happened to his suspicion of mozamis?

It looks to me like a flustered Furc scumbuddy who can't decide whether to distance or defend and decided to both, and in this confusion, forgot whom he had previously professed suspicion of.

I don't understand this? Toon fighter's post wasn't really an extensive defense of Furcolow, that seems like an exaggeration. The other points on Toon fighter seemed more sound, but this feels like just finding one more reason to try and push everyone in a direction. I don't really like this post.

I'd rather vote: Vezokpiraka
d1 vanilla townie claim
- hurts % of power roles not being hit
- if he's town, he will not scumhunt or lynch correctly

*smack*

No!

unvote
Vote Furc

^ This.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Furcolow

Furc needs to die.

What? I don't understand what happened here at all! AGAR has this great tendency of giving some bullshit reasoning to none at all, and then stating that someone needs to die. I really don't like this trend.

AGar, please clarify the exact reason behind your vote on Furcolow. Also, do you still think Surye is scum?

Yes, Surye is stull scum.

Furc vote is because he comes in, responds poorly to pressure in a "convenient" manner (although don't believe it was necessarily intentional) then pulls the Vezok wagon equal with his own with shit shit reasoning.

This "convenient" manner was explained, and is at least partially supported by the non response in other parts of the game. He did give a reason and make a vote. I'm still not liking this AGAR trend.

fuzzylightning has informed me of a V/LA situation soon. Will hold off on his replacement while that resolves.

Oh, I didn't actually see this at the time of my vote. Will address more in a bit.

Yes, this means we think Vezok is town.
No, we don't care. He's our D1 lynch choice. I, at least, would vote for Vezok on D1 even if we had mod-confirmation that he was town.

This is scum posting like a fucktard.

Hey AGar,

I'm glad you called us scum without saying why that was scummy. Early anti-town lynches are something I (quadz) have pressed for as town in at least one completed game, as well as a couple of ongoing ones. Singer has done the same.

Hypothetical situation: You're town. Do you want town-Vezok (or town-Furc, for that matter) in lylo? Cause I sure don't wanna leave my fate in either one of their hands.

Also,
[/i]

Vezok wagon is shit, Furc is the VI scumbuddy that ABR is white-knighting right now.

By that logic, Vezok is your VI scumbuddy.

-Gummybear

You're pushing a VI policy lynch on D1 instead of scumhunting. That's called scumposting. You're admitting to try and lynch a player you find to be town. That's scumposting. If you were town, you'd be playing so shitty right now I'd rather have Vezok OR Furc in LYLO than you.

Going "I have pressed for this as town in one game" is the kind of self-metaing that makes me despise anyone using meta as a surefire indicator of alignment. You know you do it as town. You don't have the intelligence of a dead fish. You are very capable of manipulating your meta, and this isn't in a way that locks you into a bad situation (the Vezok situation does, as LF and I have pointed out). The bad play for scum is the only real reason I find it believable that Vezok is prob-town. He's not a bad scum player, I've been scum with him before.

Well, finally some relevance to why there is defense on Vez. I've been wondering this for a while now. But I still don't understand why there is a lacking of addressing the misworded claim? I haven't see you say anything on that AGAR, what do you think? Does Vez really strike you with no problems at all right now?

Get a grip. Vezok is not completely useless. At worst, he is a sack of meat. At best, he might do something useful later in the game. The above response to my question proves to me that he is not simply completely ignoring everything people ask him and tell him.

So, people, please, get your head out of your behinds and start hunting for actual scum. I'm not saying Vezok is confirmed town in my eyes, but he deserves a fair chance at playing the game. Regardless of the way you feel about vanilla claims (and I totally agree that a Vanilla claim at this point was not a good move), regardless of the way you feel about the person, look through and look at the role you think he has.

The reasoning in this post is a great part of the reason I decided to stop voting for Vez. My vote for him was not policy based, I really think it's shady that his post didn't match something that we know. Over all though, I looked over his posts and got more of an "I don't know what I'm doing, or how I can save myself" feeling from what I saw, than "I'm scum, I'll just try and give more information to get them off my backs" feel, which is what I got from the misworded post.

Some things in this post give me a bad gut feeling about Lian. The odd wishy washy position of Vez ("He's not defending himself, but maybe that's somewhat less scummy then I thought, but I think his play is detremental, but perhaps we'll worry about it later") feels scummy. The FOS of Furcolow, with a reluctance to go into detail why, also feels like she's trying to have it both ways on that wagon. She also attacks Agar, doesn't say why she's doing that either. She's trying to say that she wants to lynch Vez, but...gets off the Vez wagon, when it's still one of the largest in the game, because it's "not helping the game"?

I have said plenty of times in the past why I find AGAR suspicious, and you can see it more so here now. Look back at my posts if you don't believe me. You can look one post higher as to why I am not on the Vez wagon anymore.

Voting a kicklynch on d1?
Medicated Lain is scum

unvote: Furcolow
vote: MedicatedLain

I need to catchup better, admittedly, but from what I can tell LF and AGar are ML's scumbuddies.
AGar is on ML's list of scumreads, capitalized, in the center of 2 other names, and seemingly with very little reasoning

LF because he writes off the Vezok townclaim as confirmed and therefore is for VTs claiming D1. Only scum would want to out the PRs through deductive reasoning.

Uhm, what the hell? There's no reasoning here at all, I don't understand this post at all.

Furcolow's last three posts were:
1) Voting for himself
2) Voting for Medicated Lain, whom had no votes* before Yos2's post.
3) Votes for Zindaras, whom also had no votes* before ABR's post.

This is blatant wagon-hopping, try to get behind anything that might possibly turn into a wagon.

*I'm 90% sure on that, but we haven't had a vote count recently and if I missed a vpte, please forgive.

I agree entirely on this. What is up with this Fur? Massive scum points on Fur for this.

Is it really *that* scummy to look at a situation, and take more factors into account?
1. Saying something about your role that goes against a *fact* is scummy.
2. Not responding in defense feels like a given up state, which is something I don't associate with mafia.

The issue isn't that you're talking factors into account. It's more that it feels like you're being wishy washy on every major bandwagon, which makes me wonder if you're deliberately trying to avoid pinning yourself down to any positions you could be attacked for later.

Fair enough in reasoning. Honestly though, I don't like voting in places unless I have a clear reason. At the time I was posting that, I didn't really have the time to pay attention on a serious enough level. I didn't look over AGAR's further posts any more carefully. I FoSed Fur because things looked scummy on the surface, but I was just skimming over things, and he had plenty of votes on him without me adding on. I voted for a lurker mainly to point out that it's a big problem, and maybe in hopes that it would do the same thing with Furcolow, and he'd come out. (I didn't see the post about him being away)

Seriously, you need me to keep repeating over and over, why I find these people suspicious? Look at my past posts, it's there

But, other then the "I don't like the way he's defending Vez" reason for suspecting Agar, I don't really understand why she finds any of those 6 people suspicious.

Aside from defending AGAR, he just states a person and says they should die. If there's reasoning included, it's always crap reasoning.

Kison - What is up with that immediate vote for Mozamis directly after hezlucky for short posting? Not really enough reason to merit trying to start a bandwagon.

FoS:AGAR -- Very strong defense on Vek, and the reasons aren't really making sense. I also feel like his posts have been very spastic in trying to just stir up anything possible. This would be my second choice for most suspicious, but it seems smarter to lynch Vek, and see if he is scum. If vek is scum, AGAR is my #1 choice for tomorrow.

How much of this relies on your belief that vezokpiraka is scum?

I had stated very clearly why I was voting for Vez, I felt of all the contributions to make this wasn't a very valid one, given that I don't recall seeing him post all that much. I haven't done an ISO though, and my reasoning is nowhere near warranting a vote, just found some things suspicious. Just like that, I had already pointed out a point each for why I find the other two suspicious. You can look back and see for yourself why i voted where. I gave my cases, they were just in the past.

After all this lengthy post, this is what it comes down to:
Furcolow definitely has some strong points against him in those voting habits. I think a Fur lynch could be a scum lynch, so I would not be opposed to voting in this direction.
Vez seems less scummy than I was really convinced before, but at the same time, I still think that his existence won't really help the town.
Amrun felt a bit out of place in some attacks, but nothing else warranted major attention.
Mozamis/Cog refuses to post anything helpful to the game, but still posts. This could be another possible scum hit.
Yos had some points against him earlier in the game, but feels less scummy now.
AGAR is using faulty logic at every turn, and just going vote crazy trying to stir up or add on to whatever he can. I think this is our best shot at scum.

unvote;vote:AGAR

[Albert B. Rampage]

Why do you have the same avatar as GreyIce?

[Porochaz]

Been discussed before, he had it years before Grey did.

Also Im going to catch up with this game tonight, I had a few thoughts but I don't know if they are outdated so will post later.

[Medicated Lain]

Porochaz: Ahem, pronouns.

[Amrun]

So your problem is the use of the word "extensive?". You do realize it's a subjective word, right?

How do you feel about Toon Fighter? What's your read on him, ML? I noticed you completely forgot that part of your comment on my case on TF, and if either of you should flip scum, this will become a chainsaw.

[DeathNote]

I can not grasp the Medicated Lain wagon or the case against him. It is tough to get into this conversation now as well so I might keep lurking for a bit. I am still reading however, so I do have opinions.

[Amrun]

So express them.

[creampuffeater]

Yay, done with Finals, caught up on the game.

Why would Vez say threats to town, and not anti human factions? Saying anti human factions would have made it easier to trust him, and maybe even perhaps bring it up as something to focus on... as in the idea anti human factionS, meaning that we know we are dealing with multiple groups to kill. Maybe you could consider that common knowledge in a game this big, but the point is, that rather than this being a post that clears him, and gives us something new to think about, it tells us that he stated something that goes against common knowledge to the game, in attempt to clear himself, and not really attempt to produce any new information. The biggest problem is, this disagrees with what has been stated about the game, and if was stated properly would have been relevant to helping the game.
On top of this, he's claimed townie. The more I have thought about this, the more I realize, it's just going to harm us in the end. We have a few choices as town in this situation.

I think this has already been addressed multiple times, but not everybody memorizes their PM word for word. Vezok gave the standard town wincon, which doesnt actually provide any new information such as multiple groups, as it is not specific. If theres 1 group, they are covered. A group and a SK, covered. 2 mafia groups, that Wincon is still standard. I dont believe that this is a good reason to be voting for Vezok.

ORLY.

Last I checked, having any sort of flip and analysis of wagons related to that flip is VERY good for town. Get your head out of your ass, realize this is a large game, stop fooling yourself into thinking you're good enough to find scum on D1, and do something that's actually beneficial to town.

Even now it's generated plenty of discussion as to who's on what side and supporting which lynch, etc.

But the problem I have with this is that most of the discussion isn't really useful and Zindy is right that people are using policy lynch as an excuse to avoid building good cases or potentially change their minds about Vezok.

@HezLucky: not to distract from your read of me, but my vote of primate was a RVS vote, so I am surprised you want to hold that against me >.>

I believe that the initial wagon on furcolow was pretty bad. As a rampant lurker myself, usually getting voted was a wake up call to start posting. However, his series of votes after are much worse than the initial case. There seems to be very little reasoning attached to all of the vote hopping and attempted bandwagon/wagon starting procedures. His explinations, especially in response to his Zindy vote are pretty terrible. Just because somebody is leading a case on you does not make them scum, especially when they aren't actually attacking you or voting you >.>

I still dislike ABR, but his posts seem a lot more town, just continuing his over insistence on policy lynching Vezok,

Unovte ABR, Vote Furcolow

[Internet Stranger]

Surye is still the scum. Why am I not surprised that he is on the craptacular Furc wagon?

[DeathNote]

So express them.

I should clarify. I have opinions but they are unrelated to ML or anyone arguing with him.

[Amrun]

So. Express. Them.

[Yosarian2]

Agreed. IF you have opinions on anything or anyone in the game, DeathNote, I'd like to hear them.

[GummyBear]

Reading up.

We could go for a Furcolow lynch. We haven't liked his play this game either, yaddayaddayadda pretty much what's been said. If there's a vig though, it would be very nice if you could get rid of Vezok for us. <3

-Singer

[Toon Fighter]

gonna be V/LA for the weekend

[AGar]

Reading up.

We could go for a Furcolow lynch. We haven't liked his play this game either, yaddayaddayadda pretty much what's been said. If there's a vig though, it would be very nice if you could get rid of Vezok for us. <3

-Singer

Please town player, save us a night-kill on this obvtown player so we can optimize ours.

[vezokpiraka]

Sorry for being absent.

I'm here. I still think Surye is scum.

[Yosarian2]

Reading up.

We could go for a Furcolow lynch. We haven't liked his play this game either, yaddayaddayadda pretty much what's been said. If there's a vig though, it would be very nice if you could get rid of Vezok for us. <3

-Singer

Please town player, save us a night-kill on this obvtown player so we can optimize ours.

...so, the theory that you're going with here is really that the scum are considering nightkilling Vez, the claimed vanilla who hasn't done anything useful yet and who about half the people in the game want to lynch?

[Internet Stranger]

This Vezo and Furc hate is getting annoying. I'm not supporting their lynch now simply out of principle (or at least until in convinced that they are scum).

Surye is scum for sure.

[Patrick]

Vote Count #6

:


Furcolow (8) - (SensFan, Porochaz, Toon Fighter, BrianMcQueso, Cogito Ergo Sum, AGar, Surye, creampuffeater)
Surye (4) - (Internet Stranger, vezokpiraka, Zindaras, HezLucky)
ToonFighter (1) - (Amrun)
Medicated Lain (3) - (LlamaFluff, Yosarian2, MrBuddyLee)
Zindaras (2) - (Albert B. Rampage, Furcolow)
vezokpiraka (1) - (GummyBear)
SensFan (1) - (Primate)
Bamboomancer (1) - (Kison)
AGar (1) - (Medicated Lain)

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch

[vezokpiraka]

Vote Count #6

:


Furcolow (8) - (SensFan, Porochaz, Toon Fighter, BrianMcQueso, Cogito Ergo Sum, AGar, Surye, creampuffeater)
Surye (4) - (Internet Stranger, vezokpiraka, Zindaras, HezLucky)
ToonFighter (1) - (Amrun)
Medicated Lain (3) - (LlamaFluff, Yosarian2, MrBuddyLee)
Zindaras (2) - (Albert B. Rampage, Furcolow)
vezokpiraka (1) - (GummyBear)
SensFan (1) - (Primate)
Bamboomancer (1) - (Kison)
AGar (1) - (Medicated Lain)

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch

There is just one vote on me at the moment and a lot on Furc.
Look who is voting: Sensfan and poro. The same people that tried to lynch me.
Surye who was voting me but now is voting the other possible mislynch.

How can you not see the scums here?

[Porochaz]

Unvote

Finals are over monday.

Dislike Furc wagon but also dislike Furc so torn on if he is a good lynch. I unvoted Vez because there is a lot of action going on right now and I need to check up on everyone to make sure that I am still wanting a vez lynch.

This is a bad post.

catching up.

[Porochaz]

Ok Ive caught up with the game, I dont have detailed thoughts other than what has been said already. However I am happy with moz's case on TF. It alleviates some of my suspicion against him.

The 3 top lynch candidates.

1, Frank, beyond what happened before, the voting is horrible
2, DeathNote, her posts have gotten incredibly bad - I might go into this later, but as I prefer Frank just now
3, Valerie, Ive made my reasons clear on him already

The bandwagon analysis isn't a great indicator in my view as both whether you like it or not have done things to warrant votes.

If I was to put a 4th person on the list it would be Agar, mostly due to his fierce stance on the val wagon, its the aggressiveness not the stance which bothers me. However Im not willing to put a vote on him until I had ISO'd him and done some looking at his meta.

[Amrun]

I'm assuming you mean my case on TF. mozamis isn't even playing anymore.

Who is Valerie?