Mini 1830 - Game Over

[House]

If he was reading but lurking, it might have drawn him out.

Why would it draw him out? If he's lurking as scum, failing to respond to the vote would only undermine you.

Do you think past the action you're taking?

[House]

Huh. I guess that's a matter of different styles, then. I try to encourage posting, in the hopes of seeing something that later becomes useful in building a case, and I see conflict as a way to boost posting.

Wrong. Encouraging conflict is not a playstyle issue. Playstyle issues are informative of the player's individual activity. This is a theory issue, as it affects the game overall.

Town conflict is a haven for scum, because it allows them to hide with minimal effort while town slapfights each other.

[House]

My reads are mostly at or near null because I don't trust day one reads. Mine or anyone else's.

Convenient way to avoid scrutiny for being wrong.

[CCC]

Yeah, last time you said your case was rock solid, too. I've noticed that once you've decided on a scumread, you tend to push it very aggressively, with a lot of hyperbole.

What hyperbole have I used?

Do share.

Some examples:

Do you find Huntress suspicious?

She's a possible. CCC is a certainty.

Obvscum needs rope.

We at less than five days to deadline. We need to consolidate.

Funny ol' world, innit?

What you're neglecting to mention is that in that game, my case against you was utter crap. This case, however, is rock solid.

[CCC]

Would you prefer me to be dishonest about my outlook?

If that's your outlook, I'd prefer you not sign up for new games and instead offer to replace in.

There's no shortage of need for replacements, and you can hit the ground running.

Win/Win

I want to actually

survive

a day one as Town sometime.

[House]

Day 1 lynch identified.

VOTE: CCC

Spoiler: Vote Here or Explain Why Not

I'm getting slight scumtwitches from a few players. Not enough to seriously consider any of them as likely scum yet, but the needles on my scum detectors are twitching slightly.

First is Gamma Emerald, for his post #39:

Do we know how many scum we're looking for?

11 players I'm assuming there's a few possibilities here...

3 teamed mafia, 8 town
2 teamed mafia, 1 3rd party (not cult), 8 town
2 teams of 2 mafia, 7 town

I'm betting 3 Mafia, 8 town or 3 mafia, 7 town, and one 3P.

He was right later - that

does

look scummish. He's keeping the size of the mafia team constant between his guesses, instead of keeping the total number of scum constant. This may mean nothing, or it may imply that he has actual knowledge of the size of the scumteam.

It's a bit thin, but it's got my attention.

The second one who's making me nervous is The_Jester; he seems to be doing quite a lot of dodging questions and discouraging speculation in this thread.

The third one pinging my scumdar is VictorDeAngelo, for his habit of not explaining his scumreads until he wants to move to a different target.

--------------

Since my vote is on none of the above, I think I should move it onto one of the above. Therefore:

VOTE: The Jester

So instead of vote the player that you implicitly feel the most suspicion for (hence, mentioning first), you vote your second suspect.

Scumdar ping.

The person you actually voted, you didn't provide any examples of your allegations the way you did your first suspect (yet felt the need to vote the second anyway).

Scumdar ping.

My experience so far suggests that the entirety of day one is going to be pretty much nullness. I've never been on a game on this site where a Mafia player was lynched on the first day, so I'd be surprised if anyone has anything even approaching a decent read on the first day.

Breeding apathy. Lots of scum motive for that.

Scumdar ping.

--------------

In my previous post, I suggested that VictorDeAngelo and Gamma Emerald were pinging as very slightly scum. To that list I will now add GreenNope and Square World; the first for being completely absent, and the second for providing extremely short posts with no reasons for his votes. From these four, I will elect to park my vote (for the moment) on:

VOTE: Square World

Scumreading someone that hasn't even posted? How is that even vaguely town?

Opportunistic vote, jumping on his playstyle instead of alignment indicative content.

Scumdar ping.

Do you ever read other games? There are garnteed to be games were scum was hung D1 for legitimate reasons.

I haven't seen any where scum was hung D1. I expect to find that, of newbie games (with two scum out of nine players), less than two in nine games have scum lynched on day one. (If the lynches were random, it would be two in nine, but by and large scum will usually try to get town lynched, and on day one I expect that to skew the ratio against Town).

I guess I am pessimistic about day one. Later days, when there's some decent info to work with, I consider far more useful.

Yes, yes... discourage town. Breed that apathy!

Scumdar ping.

In my previous post, I suggested that VictorDeAngelo and Gamma Emerald were pinging as very slightly scum. To that list I will now add GreenNope and Square World; the first for being completely absent, and the second for providing extremely short posts with no reasons for his votes. From these four, I will elect to park my vote (for the moment) on:

VOTE: Square World

How much scummier is Box World compared to Pokémon Remake Emerald, and Old Man Victor?

Also, stop self-metaing at the drop of a hat.

Insignificantly scummier. I have no significant reads at all.

Also, what do you mean by "self-metaing"?

THIS is what not taking stances looks like.

He appears to be trying to read people, but his "insignificant" reads can change with minimal explanation.

Unlike Square, who is posting reads without going into detail why, CCC is prefacing his reads with an excuse to drop them.

Scumdar ping.

Well in my last game with Grendel, it was the same for him. I don't think Grendel is scum this time, but I DEFINITELY think you are.

Believe it or not, this fits my Town meta too. Every game I've ever been Town in, I got lynched day one.

(This may be why I think so little of day one lynches).

Brilliant! You make an excuse for your scummy play to discourage others from lynching you because you're not experienced scum so you're trying to play up your newness.

Sorry bro, nice lesson from boring but she ruined that for you.

Scumdar ping.

What do reads list have to do with conflict?

Conflict causes people to talk and interact. From these interactions, reads can be formed, and refined.

No. No. No.

Town fighting town is EXACTLY what scum wants.

If town is busy bickering with each other, scum has plenty of noise to hide in.

HUGE scumdar ping.

Here's my current list, for example:

1. gerryoat - Null leaning Townish - hasn't stood out, but has been quietly scumhunting
2. Gamma Emerald - Null leaning scummish - more sure of the size of the mafia team than the total number of scum
3. Grendel - Null leaning strongly Town - doing a hefty share of scumhunting
4. RhazhBash - Near complete null, leaning weakly scummish - needs to do more scumhunting
5. CCC - Town all the way
6. Square World - Null leaning scummish - needs to explain himself a little more
7.

GreenNope

Huntress - Null for now - needs to post something
8. Manuel87 - Null leaning slightly scummish - don't think he's made a non-RVS vote yet (could be just cautious)
9. The_Jester - Null leaning very slightly scummish
10. eagerSnake - Townish. He's really making a lot of good points and asking a lot of right questions
11. VictorDeAngelo - Null leaning scummish. I don't like how he's shutting down certain questions, and I don't like his inexplicable Townread on Square World.

2 reads that doesn't have null in them. The one that isn't his own is appended with an "ish", which he can use to justify flipping with minimal explanation.

Scumdar ping.

I'm reposting this every page until I get responses from everyone.

Responses thus far:

eagerSnake

: Lot of valid points (no vote)

Gamma Emerald

: Feels boxed in (vote)

CCC

: Nuh-uh! You were wrong before!

[CCC]

If he was reading but lurking, it might have drawn him out.

Why would it draw him out? If he's lurking as scum, failing to respond to the vote would only undermine you.

Do you think past the action you're taking?

Admittedly, that was a bad idea.

[House]

Yeah, last time you said your case was rock solid, too. I've noticed that once you've decided on a scumread, you tend to push it very aggressively, with a lot of hyperbole.

What hyperbole have I used?

Do share.

Some examples:

Do you find Huntress suspicious?

She's a possible. CCC is a certainty.

Obvscum needs rope.

We at less than five days to deadline. We need to consolidate.

Funny ol' world, innit?

What you're neglecting to mention is that in that game, my case against you was utter crap. This case, however, is rock solid.

And how are those posts hyperbole?

[CCC]

Huh. I guess that's a matter of different styles, then. I try to encourage posting, in the hopes of seeing something that later becomes useful in building a case, and I see conflict as a way to boost posting.

Wrong. Encouraging conflict is not a playstyle issue. Playstyle issues are informative of the player's individual activity. This is a theory issue, as it affects the game overall.

Town conflict is a haven for scum, because it allows them to hide with minimal effort while town slapfights each other.

Town-town conflict (which is what I believe you and I are having) is a haven for scum. But scum-town conflicts should result in scumtells and thus lead to correct lynches.

[House]

If Grendel was doing a good amount of scum hunting, why the null bit in his read at all?

EBWOP, phone posting.

Scum can scumhunt, too.

Grendel was my second-top Townread at the time (and I still think he's Town), but, as stated previously, I don't trust day one reads much.

Regardless of your opinion of my case against you, I got you to take a firmer stance on your two top town reads, which will mean I'll be expecting an explanation if they suddenly vanish.

[CCC]

And how are those posts hyperbole?

Presenting a case as if the target was utterly confirmed scum with no place to hide when I know that the target is Town.

This is also the same sort of language as you used to push your case in Arctic Mafia.

[House]

Huh. I guess that's a matter of different styles, then. I try to encourage posting, in the hopes of seeing something that later becomes useful in building a case, and I see conflict as a way to boost posting.

Wrong. Encouraging conflict is not a playstyle issue. Playstyle issues are informative of the player's individual activity. This is a theory issue, as it affects the game overall.

Town conflict is a haven for scum, because it allows them to hide with minimal effort while town slapfights each other.

Town-town conflict (which is what I believe you and I are having) is a haven for scum. But scum-town conflicts should result in scumtells and thus lead to correct lynches.

Town should not desire conflict with town. That's the crux of the point. If one townie is townreading another, slapfighting is counterproductive and instigating or encouraging it is scummy af.

[House]

And how are those posts hyperbole?

Presenting a case as if the target was utterly confirmed scum with no place to hide when I know that the target is Town.

This is also the same sort of language as you used to push your case in Arctic Mafia.

Again accusing me of pushing you as confirmed scum when I have not used that language.

Twisting in the wind, CCC.

[CCC]

Regardless of your opinion of my case against you, I got you to take a firmer stance on your two top town reads, which will mean I'll be expecting an explanation if they suddenly vanish.

...strange, that. My stance on Grendel hasn't changed significantly.

In fact, have an updated readslist:

1. gerryoat - Null leaning Townish - no change
2. Gamma Emerald - Null leaning strongly scummish - suspicious interaction with Huntress
3. Grendel - Null leaning strongly Town - no change
4. House - Null leaning strongly Town - his reads are rubbish, but I've seen him play exactly like this as Town before
5. CCC - Town all the way
6. Square World - Null leaning scummish - needs to explain himself a little more
7. Huntress - Null leaning very slightly Town - subject to rapid scumwards change if she doesn't explain herself a bit more soonish
8. Manuel87 - Null leaning slightly scummish - don't think he's made a non-RVS vote yet (could be just cautious)
9. The_Jester - Null leaning very slightly scummish - been very quiet lately
10. eagerSnake - Townish. He's really making a lot of good points and asking a lot of right questions
11. VictorDeAngelo - Null leaning slightly scummish. He's explained his scumread on Rhazh, and while it's a poor case, I now think a lot of my doubt on him is due to us thinking in very different ways.

[House]

Would you prefer me to be dishonest about my outlook?

If that's your outlook, I'd prefer you not sign up for new games and instead offer to replace in.

There's no shortage of need for replacements, and you can hit the ground running.

Win/Win

I want to actually

survive

a day one as Town sometime.

Then you should bone up on mafia theory and stop making assumptions that your bad theory is simply a playstyle.

That would go a long way to improving your survivability, regardless of your alignment.

[CCC]

Huh. I guess that's a matter of different styles, then. I try to encourage posting, in the hopes of seeing something that later becomes useful in building a case, and I see conflict as a way to boost posting.

Wrong. Encouraging conflict is not a playstyle issue. Playstyle issues are informative of the player's individual activity. This is a theory issue, as it affects the game overall.

Town conflict is a haven for scum, because it allows them to hide with minimal effort while town slapfights each other.

Town-town conflict (which is what I believe you and I are having) is a haven for scum. But scum-town conflicts should result in scumtells and thus lead to correct lynches.

Town should not desire conflict with town. That's the crux of the point. If one townie is townreading another, slapfighting is counterproductive and instigating or encouraging it is scummy af.

I don't desire conflict with Town. I desire conflict with Mafia.

[CCC]

And how are those posts hyperbole?

Presenting a case as if the target was utterly confirmed scum with no place to hide when I know that the target is Town.

This is also the same sort of language as you used to push your case in Arctic Mafia.

Again accusing me of pushing you as confirmed scum when I have not used that language.

Twisting in the wind, CCC.

How is calling me a "certainty" and "obvscum" and describing your case as "rock solid" any less than "confirmed scum"?

[House]

...strange, that. My stance on Grendel hasn't changed significantly.

I don't see how your unchanged read on him from the past is relevant to my assertion that I'll be expecting an explanation for any future changes.

[CCC]

Then you should bone up on mafia theory and stop making assumptions that your bad theory is simply a playstyle.

That would go a long way to improving your survivability, regardless of your alignment.

That's what I'm here for. To learn.

[House]

And how are those posts hyperbole?

Presenting a case as if the target was utterly confirmed scum with no place to hide when I know that the target is Town.

This is also the same sort of language as you used to push your case in Arctic Mafia.

Again accusing me of pushing you as confirmed scum when I have not used that language.

Twisting in the wind, CCC.

How is calling me a "certainty" and "obvscum" and describing your case as "rock solid" any less than "confirmed scum"?

Because "confirmed" is a very specific word that is used to refer to literal, mod-confirmed status. Throwing it around the way you are, THAT is hyperbole.

[CCC]

...strange, that. My stance on Grendel hasn't changed significantly.

I don't see how your unchanged read on him from the past is relevant to my assertion that I'll be expecting an explanation for any future changes.

It was relevant to the assertion that I'd somehow taken a firmer stance.

[House]

Then you should bone up on mafia theory and stop making assumptions that your bad theory is simply a playstyle.

That would go a long way to improving your survivability, regardless of your alignment.

That's what I'm here for. To learn.

Allow me to clarify... you should bone up on mafia theory outside of games.

As a starting point, I'd recommend going to the wiki and typing in mastin on the search bar, then going down the list of results because she has created a ton of good theory tutorials. Many of them are dated, but they still cover many fundamentals that are relevant today, as well.

[CCC]

And how are those posts hyperbole?

Presenting a case as if the target was utterly confirmed scum with no place to hide when I know that the target is Town.

This is also the same sort of language as you used to push your case in Arctic Mafia.

Again accusing me of pushing you as confirmed scum when I have not used that language.

Twisting in the wind, CCC.

How is calling me a "certainty" and "obvscum" and describing your case as "rock solid" any less than "confirmed scum"?

Because "confirmed" is a very specific word that is used to refer to literal, mod-confirmed status. Throwing it around the way you are, THAT is hyperbole.

Then I have been using the word "confirmed" incorrectly, because I have been using it as a synonym for "obvious". I shall try to avoid that in future posts.

[House]

...strange, that. My stance on Grendel hasn't changed significantly.

I don't see how your unchanged read on him from the past is relevant to my assertion that I'll be expecting an explanation for any future changes.

It was relevant to the assertion that I'd somehow taken a firmer stance.

Ah, but you did.

You "confirmed" that Grendel and eager are your two top townreads. Before that "confirmation", we could only speculate due to the vagary of your readslist.

[CCC]

Then you should bone up on mafia theory and stop making assumptions that your bad theory is simply a playstyle.

That would go a long way to improving your survivability, regardless of your alignment.

That's what I'm here for. To learn.

Allow me to clarify... you should bone up on mafia theory outside of games.

As a starting point, I'd recommend going to the wiki and typing in mastin on the search bar, then going down the list of results because she has created a ton of good theory tutorials. Many of them are dated, but they still cover many fundamentals that are relevant today, as well.

I'll look into that, thank you.