Mini 909: Nice'n'Fun Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #525 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:59 am

Post by EdFrost »

Faraday wrote: You seem to be implying this is a bad thing, but yeah sure I can go with the above to summarise it. Angelmouse was scummy and you've done nothing to change my mind.
I wasn't implying a damned thing. I just wanted to know what the entirety of your case was based upon (only angel's play or based off of scumtells in my play that I can refute, etc, etc, etc). It's more asking for clarification of your case than saying you are scummy for finding me scummy due to my predecessor's play. Don't mix it up.

~ F
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Post Post #526 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:07 am

Post by Faraday »

EdFrost wrote:
Faraday wrote: You seem to be implying this is a bad thing, but yeah sure I can go with the above to summarise it. Angelmouse was scummy and you've done nothing to change my mind.
I wasn't implying a damned thing. I just wanted to know what the entirety of your case was based upon (only angel's play or based off of scumtells in my play that I can refute, etc, etc, etc). It's more asking for clarification of your case than saying you are scummy for finding me scummy due to my predecessor's play. Don't mix it up.

~ F
Uh how about you try again?
Faraday calling me his #2 suspect without giving any real reasoning is, in of itself, suspect. Faraday, reasoning is tech.
I meant points against me specifically or if you find my entire play to be a bunch of null tells and are basing your case purely upon AM's play.
I read this (your clarification) still related to the first post, so I need to bring up points about you specifically or it's suspect?
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Post Post #527 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:47 am

Post by EdFrost »

Trying again: How about you summarize all your "Ed's *slot* is scummy" points. You could even like separate them into categories and stuff so we know what you think is scummy of both angel and I. Perhaps even decorate your post with the post numbers that all this scumminess happened; maybe line it with a couple quotes. It'll make it look pro and make you look like less of a lazy bum for saying we're scummy without actually saying why.
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Post Post #528 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:48 am

Post by EdFrost »

EBWOP: And by "a lazy bum" I mean "like scum".
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Post Post #529 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:02 am

Post by Faraday »

Alright will you maybe make your fucking mind up?
EdFrost wrote:.

Faraday calling me his #2 suspect without giving any real reasoning is, in of itself, suspect. Faraday, reasoning is tech.
Says I've given no reason for suspecting him here.
Faraday wrote:RAWR so is reading.
Obviously I have given reasoning against finding angelmouse's slot scummy, and the above quote indicates that.
EdFrost wrote:
Faraday wrote:RAWR so is reading.
I meant points against
me
specifically or if you find my entire play to be a bunch of null tells and are basing your case purely upon AM's play.

~ F
Asks for points against him specifically. OKAY, obviously that wasn't clear the first time I said it. Also seems to accept that I have some points against Angelmouse, or it reads like that to me.
You seem to be implying this is a bad thing, but yeah sure I can go with the above to summarise it. Angelmouse was scummy and you've done nothing to change my mind.
^ I say that's pretty much the case.
I wasn't implying a damned thing. I just wanted to know what the entirety of your case was based upon (only angel's play or based off of scumtells in my play that I can refute, etc, etc, etc). It's more asking for clarification of your case than saying you are scummy for finding me scummy due to my predecessor's play. Don't mix it up.

It was a request for clarification.

I then show the first two quotes which appear to show I'm suspect for not giving reasoning for finding him scummy. Him as in Edfrost, is what he later clarified.

So I'm asking again, why?
Trying again: How about you summarize all your "Ed's *slot* is scummy" points. You could even like separate them into categories and stuff so we know what you think is scummy of both angel and I. Perhaps even decorate your post with the post numbers that all this scumminess happened; maybe line it with a couple quotes. It'll make it look pro and make you look like less of a lazy bum for saying we're scummy without actually saying why.
Trying again? You didn't try before :roll: You asked for specific points against you, that is to say Edfrost so you could refute them.
You've already given some indication that I have made points against Angelmouse, in fact you seemed to accept it.

So, seriously, make your fucking mind up about what you're asking. Is it your slot, or do I need specific points against Edfrost? Because you seem to have changed your mind over the course of these few posts.

But sure, I can do that. It'll be a bit later, probably.
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Post Post #530 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:11 am

Post by hitogoroshi »

Hoopla [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2098411#2098411]500[/url] wrote: Hito, you'd seriously prefer no-lynch over an RC lynch?
Yes. Red's posting clearly, driving the town, and scumhunting.
Faraday [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2099416#2099416]524[/url] wrote: Hito what are you going to do with your vote now that we have a deadline extension in lieu of the fact you believe Mindgamer to be town.
To be clear, I'm not saying I have a strong town read on Mindgamer - only that his more recent posts are weakening my scum read on him. Right now I think I'd peg Mindgamer as neutral-leaning-scum.

But you're right that this deadline extension gives me the room I need. I'm terrified that this is gonna falter and make lynching RC the only viable option at deadline, but cruelty is literally saying 'I acknowledge I'm only focusing on RC, what are you gonna do about it nyah nyah nyah' and if THAT doesn't get lynched it's going to tell us a whole lot about who the scum are.

unvote, vote: cruelty


I'm not gonna grab supporting quotes and all of that right now, but a couple of updates on where I stand. Edfrost has manuevered his way to my second strongest town read. Agar is slipping down into neutral-leaning-town, not so much because of a scummy something he did but because I'm suddenly not seeing his strong presence that gave me such a town read in the first place. I'm a bit hesitant to comment on the replacement stew until it settles out.
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Post Post #531 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:19 am

Post by Faraday »

To be clear, I'm not saying I have a strong town read on Mindgamer - only that his more recent posts are weakening my scum read on him. Right now I think I'd peg Mindgamer as neutral-leaning-scum.
Okay, I guess I thought from your other post you had a reasonably strong town read on him, but obviously that wasn't the case.
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Post Post #532 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:31 am

Post by Faraday »

Hey Edfrost I'm about to read you in Iso! Are you excited? I am!!!
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Post Post #533 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:42 am

Post by RedCoyote »

Faraday 524 wrote:Not when he said he was going back to read it later, seems reasonable to let him go back and read it properly and then answer any questions he has, doesn't it.
I don't know if that's supposed to be a statement or a question. If it's a question, then no, it doesn't seem reasonable. Mindgamer's request looked pretty clear cut to me.

I mean, Mindgamer can speak for himself. If he says you're right, then there's little else I can argue to the contrary.

---
hito 530 wrote:Yes. Red's posting clearly, driving the town, and scumhunting.
hito doesn't love you like he loves me, Hoops. <3 <3 <3
hito 530 wrote:Agar is slipping down into neutral-leaning-town, not so much because of a scummy something he did but because I'm suddenly not seeing his strong presence that gave me such a town read in the first place.
I've also noticed AGar's unwillingness to really commit to one side or the other in my past couple of posts. He has been consistent though, I don't see him making posts that indicate he is going soft on Mindgamer.
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Post Post #534 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:45 am

Post by EdFrost »

Hey Faraday: My partner was writing the ~F posts and *I* understood what he meant.

The "me" is my player slot. It doesn't change from player to player. What Angel is I am. So how about you bring a case against "me" (BOTH angel and I) if you wanna push it. You've said that angel was scummy. You didn't bring up any points as to why angel was scummy so I could refute them if you had bothered to bring them up. You've said I didn't change your opinion one way or another; no reason as to why.

Reading *IS* tech because you're not actually reading what I'm writing. You haven't posted a damn thing against us until you said that you thought that angel was scummy. You haven't backed that up with anything substantial, and you sure as hell haven't backed up your position of the EdFrost portion of the "I think he's scum" opinion. So instead of just making our words mean what you want, I'm glad that you're finally getting the point and can put something down that other people can actually weigh in on and consider. Lord knows you haven't been *really* focused on anybody but RC since you came into the game.

tl; dr version: You've done jack all to say *why* either AM or I am scummy. Saying we are without backing it up *is* scummy as it allows you to say whatever the hell you want to say about us later. Now like 2 RL days later you are finally getting the point now that we've closed in on a deadline again.
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Post Post #535 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:05 am

Post by Faraday »

angelmouse wrote:
surely it was a joke. We're only on page two, game barely started and with 12 players it's hardly a lynch situation.

Jumping the gun a bit and voting on it?? Strange play

fos, cot.cathartic
Putting possible slips off as jokes is bad. It sets a bad precedent for the rest of the game. There was also no real reason for her to jump in here at the defense of The Tracker.
The FOS is horribly weak, basically saying it's too early to scumhunt which is BS.
I wasn't defending tracker, i just read it as a joke and thought it strange that Col.C had read into it so harshly and voted on it. I haven't said anything in defence of tracker anyway, more just my interpretation of it. I think mislynch is the wrong word and a slip up, but is a scum slip up, I don't know yet, more time required to work that out. I agree that voting on something he suspects is def the best play, but it was flimsy reasoning in my opinion. We had barely entered RV stage and im all for getting out of it quickly, but to find someone scummy on their first post and put a serious vote on it is strange and something to mention and watch. I might be wrong in my game theory, but i like to get a flavour for everyone and the way they are playing. Hats off to it though, game has properly started.
'I wasn't defending tracker' isn't really true. Not that she's lying, but by attacking the attack I think she is defending tracker.
If she's all for getting out of the RV stage quickly then why is voting on supposed flimsy reasoning a bad thing. There's no other way you can get out is there?

ISO 3 is the definition of hypocrisy. The scummy kind too.

Her next two posts are filler, basically saying why she's not here, which is reasonable enough. I don't get the impression she was lurking/avoiding the thread (and it's impossible to check without search on :/) but yeah, she probably was busy.
I'm not for a quagmire lynch today. Thing is though, i do see it as pro scum though.
I'm not sure if this means she thinks what quag is doing is scummy (and she can't clarify) but if she does the lack of vote is odd.

Then she gives her reads on several players. She has quite a few neutral reads and then a couple of leaning either way but she's unsure of. All in all it's pretty bad I think. She does provide some substanital reasoning for voting the tracker at the end, so it's not like she's incapable of doing it (providing content on players) either.

Her whole 'critical thinking' regarding the scum on the quag wagon wasn't really critical thinking at all as was pointed out. She then proceeds to babble for a few posts that's really just explaining her tracker vote.

She asks for a claim at L-3 (I believe). But stupid, but since Quag wasn't scum it doesn't seem like she was trying to save a buddy or anything so I've really no idea here.

That's it for day 1.
Her only day 2 post was coming out voting for the tracker for really poor reasoning. Trying to guess the set-up is stupid, and using one flip as a basis for your both is really weak.

There's also the odd exchange where Red says she's bringing 'critical thinking to the game' which baffles me, and I guess makes me think there's a better than average chance of them being scum together, trying to show your scumbuddies as actually scumhunting obviously makes them look good, and considering there was nothing remarkable in her posts well yeah. I also am not sure how he likes her player analysis post, but it seems we tend to disagree on quite a lot in terms of playstyle anyway so I guess if he has reasons I can't hold that against either of them. Or not too strongly at least.

EDFROST
It says Vi reviewed the set-up on the first page, click the link it brings you to Vi's profile :)

Hey Edfrost I just realised you've done pretty much nothing for me to get a read on you? I mean yeah, you interact with Tracker, but eh, that's about it early on.

Your vote on Mindgamer seems poor to me. Why is voting a believed power role a scum tell? It's pretty obvious that if he's voting for the tracker he doesn't believe them. Seems to be a disagreement = scummy kinda thing, which is obviously a poor road to go down, even if it does tend to happen.

Also lol u lazy bum. You went from wanting to analyse and discuss things to putting Mindgamer at L-1 with rather shoddy reasoning. (I'm not going to do a fake EBWOP, dw)

So it's alright for you to provide garbage on Mindgamer, but yet you're overly concerned and apparently unable to read that I posted stuff on you.

I disagree with Mindgamer, I don't think Edfrost has 'honest reasons' for being on your bandwagon at all. It looked like he just wanted to end the day after deciding he wouldn't get much flak for jumping on ya.

Anyway as I said most of the scumminess comes from the first player, angelmouse, the only thing there is I don't like about Edfrost is the mindgamer vote after saying there was a lot more to dicuss. Everything else is pretty much null, reading him in Iso didn't really change that. I see him and redcoyote as having a good chance of sharing a scum alignment too.

Idk if this is a incoherent babble or not, but to me it makes me think Edfrost is a good lynch. Certainly very confused by anyone calling him town in any way shape or form. He's da scum.
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Post Post #536 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:07 am

Post by Faraday »

RedCoyote wrote:I don't know if that's supposed to be a statement or a question. If it's a question, then no, it doesn't seem reasonable. Mindgamer's request looked pretty clear cut to me.
It was a statement.

And yeah he can speak for himself :)
I've also noticed AGar's unwillingness to really commit to one side or the other in my past couple of posts. He has been consistent though, I don't see him making posts that indicate he is going soft on Mindgamer.
I agree, but I don't think the second thing is necessarily a good thing, and the first is somewhat worrying.
Hey Faraday: My partner was writing the ~F posts and *I* understood what he meant.
I guess congratulations are in order or something, because I didn't have a fucking clue.

He asks for:
Edfrost wrote: I meant points against me specifically or if you find my entire play to be a bunch of null tells and are basing your case purely upon AM's play.
Hey Edfrost w/o the F, if you're telling me this reffered to your player slot and not just edfrost then I'm really confused. He goes as far as ask if I find HIS play a bunch of null tells and find AM scummy. The distinction is there and it's obvious.

Perhaps he meant to ask for your player slot? But it in no way seems that way at all.
You've said that angel was scummy.
You didn't bring up any points as to why angel was scummy
so I could refute them if you had bothered to bring them up. You've said I didn't change your opinion one way or another; no reason as to why.
The bolded is a untrue. Do you disagree with my reasons or did you just not see them?
Also it's not up to me to provide reasoning as to why you didn't change my mind, if your posts are null and hers were scummy then obviously I'm going to see you as scumm.

You didn't read what I wrote either. I hear it's tech tho, amirit?
You haven't posted a damn thing against us until you said that you thought that angel was scummy.
Inaccurate.
Now like 2 RL days later you are finally getting the point now that we've closed in on a deadline again.
We were always closing in on a deadline champ, but thanks for trying.
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Post Post #537 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:09 am

Post by Faraday »

that post was way too long ^^
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Post Post #538 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:14 am

Post by Faraday »

apologies for the 4 posts in a row but i'm going to be probably v/la tomorrow and the most of the next day
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Post Post #539 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:52 am

Post by Mindgamer »

Mindgamer, if I'm the
only
genuine voter, then what are your reasons for voting me? Obv, it's no based off of the wagon on you, so you'll have to explain quite well what your reasoning for finding me scummy is.

I like this point.

Like Hoopla said, this is a good point.

I disagree with Mindgamer, I don't think Edfrost has 'honest reasons' for being on your bandwagon at all. It looked like he just wanted to end the day after deciding he wouldn't get much flak for jumping on ya.
Apparently I made a mistake in translation here. With 'genuine' I meant something like 'serious'. I don't really know the word for it. Point is that all the voters on my wagon were either absent or feeling time pressure, and EdFrost was the only voter who was active and voting for a 'scum' reason, which made his vote the only 'serious' one on my wagon. I don't think he has honest reasons at all. Quite the contrary, because I think he's scum.
RedCoyote wrote:If you don't come back, then I hope Mindgamer is happy scaring you away.
As good as a replacement Horrordude0215 is, he was posting scummy reasoning. Should I ignore that just because he's a newbie? Of course not. I think his departure is indicative of his alignment though. If he was scum, he would just try to counter my arguments. But if he was town , he could think he was doing a poor job because I was pointing out flaws. This makes me think the Nachomamma8/Horrordude0215 slot is likely town.

By the way, with only one finished game my official status is still Newbie, just like Horrordude0215. Why do I bring this up? Because the way you deal with newbies being attacked is quite inconsistent. Remember when The Tracker attacked me with sentences like 'The content of Mindgamer's post is like an unhappy marriage?'? You gave the following response to me:
Don't take it personal, Mindgamer.
Yet now that I attack Horrordude0215 WITHOUT insults, you act like it's my fault. That's quite contrasting behaviour. I see two possible explanations:

1. You're scum and The Tracker is your scumbuddy. You're not going to make your scumbuddy look bad, but of course it's very helpful to put a townie in a bad daylight.
2. You like The Tracker and dislike me.

Which is it?
RedCoyote wrote:This coupled with Mindgamer's "I don't agree with the RC lynch... but here are some more scumtells to keep it going *wink wink*" have rubbed me the wrong way.
Hmm? As a townie it's my job to look for scumtells everywhere and share them with everyone, especially when I'm so close to a lynch. Should I ignore you just because I don't have a scumread on you? Don't be so ridiculous.
hitogoroshi wrote:Edfrost has manuevered his way to my second strongest town read.
Could you explain why?
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Post Post #540 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:35 am

Post by EdFrost »

Faraday: I'm actually kinda glad you brought up Angel's "joke defense" thing.

You know why? It's cause you're getting a totally different read on two very similar situations. Wanna know the other situation? Here it is:
Mindgamer wrote:First impressions are very important. Surely The Tracker would be careful not to make such a stupid mistake in his first post. It's a joke, pay attention to behaviour that is worth discussing.
That was post 38.
angelmouse wrote:
Col.Cathart wrote:We have one?

In addition, Tracker seems to be convinced Hito lynch will be a mislynch actually, and I'm curious why he thinks that.
surely it was a joke. We're only on page two, game barely started and with 12 players it's hardly a lynch situation.

Jumping the gun a bit and voting on it?? Strange play

fos, cot.cathartic
Was post 33.

Did you not bother to read another 5 posts down the page? Or was angel's FoS an actual act that took a stand rather than mindgamer not looking for motives behind jumping at shadows that made "me" scummy?

Perhaps you don't take stock in the fact that both Cyber and RC noticed a difference (posts 40 and 43, respectively) and questioned Mindgamer more over something that similar? It obviously was brought to attention a couple times on the same page;
why are you ignoring or coming to a different conclusion about both mindgamer and I when we both had a similar reaction in your eyes, and we had it first?
If it was scummy for us, then mindgamer should be scummy as well from your perspective. Nope, mind is one of your top town reads and we're a top suspect.
Faraday wrote:'I wasn't defending tracker' isn't really true. Not that she's lying, but by attacking the attack I think she is defending tracker.
Chainsaw defense without a dead mafia isn't a chainsaw defense. If you're gonna bring up wiki tells, at least make sure they're accurate and apply to the situation. Thanks.
Faraday wrote:Then she gives her reads on several players. She has quite a few neutral reads and then a couple of leaning either way but she's unsure of. All in all it's pretty bad I think. She does provide some substanital reasoning for voting the tracker at the end, so it's not like she's incapable of doing it (providing content on players) either.
I'm glad that providing reasoning when voting is... null? in your opinion? I really don't get this part either. I still have neutral reads on player slots; and you're gonna criticize somebody over the same thing a couple pages into the game? OKAY.

Moving on to me: A scumtell (by my definition) is something that scum have a higher likelyhood of doing than town. There are varying degrees of how strong a scumtell is; but in my experience if the scum need to get rid of somebody they have two ways of doing it: killing and lynching. If you have too many targets that you want to kill, you obviously need to lynch said person. As town generally wants to keep their PR's alive (as they can get more information than plain vanillas), they usually don't vote them. Scum, however, do want to get rid of the PR's. Therefore, they try to get said PR lynched so they can't be implicated with information from a power role.

Obviously there's some WIFOM going there as you have to take into account scumminess of the person, if their claim is believable, stuff like that but there's more scum motivation as they obviously believe the PR since there's no reason for a townie to lie about the PR.

I also already covered what I wanted to discuss with the rest of the game. We both had Mindgamer as our top suspect; for several of the same reasons. My partner had some experience with Tracker so he wanted to talk to him to help focus on the game and gauge his discussion in person. I was willing to vote for Mindgamer right away but I was waiting for him to catch up and solidify his reads and who he wanted to question. So he talked to Tracker a bit and then I voted for who we both concurred to be most likely to be scum.

However:
Faraday wrote: Anyway as I said most of the scumminess comes from the first player, angelmouse, the
only thing there is I don't like about Edfrost is the mindgamer vote after saying there was a lot more to dicuss. Everything else is pretty much null, reading him in Iso didn't really change that. I see him and redcoyote as having a good chance of sharing a scum alignment too.


Idk if this is a incoherent babble or not, but to me it makes me think Edfrost is a good lynch. Certainly very confused by anyone calling him town in any way shape or form.
He's da scum
.
I adore the fact that you're advocating lynching a *null* read because he (I) has (have) a chance at being a partner to somebody that you think is suspicious.

Congratulations! You just shot what little credibility you had with me all to hell.

Finally, it's not my issue that you can't (or don't want to) get a read on me. If you do, ask me questions instead of calling me scum for unknown reasons until today.

One last thing I want to mention. I hate how mindgamer finally switched up his play when he was pressed for a claim. If he was vanilla, why didn't he play this way throughout the game? It obviously would've been better for the town, might've lead to a better lynch than Quag day 1 because of poking and prodding. However; he wasn't tenacious or this well articulated until he knew what meta he had to play to today. I think he was trying to keep his options open with his meta until he realized that he didn't have anything set up to fake-claim. No breadcrumbs, nothing. Now that he was forced into claiming vanilla he's suddenly helpful? Sorry if I'm skeptical that you change your playstyle in the middle of the day cause you had to claim.



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Post Post #541 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:03 am

Post by cruelty »

RedCoyote wrote: What do you mean?

I voted Quagmire...
Did you want to?
Ed wrote:Hey Faraday: My partner was writing the ~F posts and *I* understood what he meant.
...
hito wrote:cruelty is literally saying 'I acknowledge I'm only focusing on RC
Indulge me for a sec; if I flip town then who will you look at tomorrow?
Ed wrote:The "me" is my player slot. It doesn't change from player to player
Of course the slot can change from player to player. Different people can give off different reads. It's entirely possible to have a scum read on a player and then not on the replacement. Doesn't look like this is the case here for Faraday, but I've been in games where a replacement has basically been so pro-town that any suspicion of the original player was dismissed as poor play on their part.

Mindgamer wrote:1. You're scum and The Tracker is your scumbuddy. You're not going to make your scumbuddy look bad, but of course it's very helpful to put a townie in a bad daylight.
2. You like The Tracker and dislike me.
mate I got a spare seat on the wagon if you're keen.
Ed (@mindgamer) wrote:I'm skeptical that you change your playstyle in the middle of the day cause you had to claim.
Agreed.
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Post Post #542 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:17 am

Post by Faraday »

EdFrost wrote: Did you not bother to read another 5 posts down the page? Or was angel's FoS an actual act that took a stand rather than mindgamer not looking for motives behind jumping at shadows that made "me" scummy?
First one, actually. I read in ISO and then read around if I felt I needed context.
Nope, mind is one of your top town reads and we're a top suspect.
Yerrr I'm voting you for one reason and one reason only.
Faraday wrote:'I wasn't defending tracker' isn't really true. Not that she's lying, but by attacking the attack I think she is defending tracker.
Chainsaw defense without a dead mafia isn't a chainsaw defense. If you're gonna bring up wiki tells, at least make sure they're accurate and apply to the situation. Thanks.
Actually what I didn't like there was the disavowal of responsibility from said defense. There's nothing wrong with defending a player, but have the balls to say so. Thanks.
]I'm glad that providing reasoning when voting is... null? in your opinion? I really don't get this part either. I still have neutral reads on player slots; and you're gonna criticize somebody over the same thing a couple pages into the game? OKAY.
Yes I am. And I'm sure you've lots of neutral's too, good for you.
Moving on to me: A scumtell (by my definition) is something that scum have a higher likelyhood of doing than town. There are varying degrees of how strong a scumtell is; but in my experience if the scum need to get rid of somebody they have two ways of doing it: killing and lynching. If you have too many targets that you want to kill, you obviously need to lynch said person. As town generally wants to keep their PR's alive (as they can get more information than plain vanillas), they usually don't vote them. Scum, however, do want to get rid of the PR's. Therefore, they try to get said PR lynched so they can't be implicated with information from a power role.
But The Tracker is probably not a PR, unless we've got some crazy gambit going by a SK and the mod loves killing roles. It's not like The Tracker could actually do anything to harm Mindgamer if he's scum, unless of course he's the SK I guess, but I don't really think the set-up lends itself to a SK from what we've seen.


I also already covered what I wanted to discuss with the rest of the game. We both had Mindgamer as our top suspect; for several of the same reasons. My partner had some experience with Tracker so he wanted to talk to him to help focus on the game and gauge his discussion in person. I was willing to vote for Mindgamer right away but I was waiting for him to catch up and solidify his reads and who he wanted to question. So he talked to Tracker a bit and then I voted for who we both concurred to be most likely to be scum.
I'm not saying talking to the tracker was bad, but it seems you didn't a lot other than that. Then you moved on to Mindgamer for the most part and are now engaging in me. Also the vote felt like it came out of no-where.
I adore the fact that you're advocating lynching a *null* read because he (I) has (have) a chance at being a partner to somebody that you think is suspicious.
You're a scum read overall, try and keep up, my posts for the most part aren't that hard to follow.



Finally, it's not my issue that you can't (or don't want to) get a read on me. If you do, ask me questions instead of calling me scum for unknown reasons until today.
When I came into the game I was concentrated on getting scum lynched, I thought that was redcoyote and really my goal was to convince the town to lynch him. From then I'd have the whole of the next day to talk to you, now obviously we have more time now so that's fine.

One last thing I want to mention. I hate how mindgamer finally switched up his play when he was pressed for a claim. If he was vanilla, why didn't he play this way throughout the game? It obviously would've been better for the town, might've lead to a better lynch than Quag day 1 because of poking and prodding. However; he wasn't tenacious or this well articulated until he knew what meta he had to play to today. I think he was trying to keep his options open with his meta until he realized that he didn't have anything set up to fake-claim. No breadcrumbs, nothing. Now that he was forced into claiming vanilla he's suddenly helpful? Sorry if I'm skeptical that you change your playstyle in the middle of the day cause you had to claim.
I think this is a huge stretch. It's possible he was just lazy, and it's indeed far more likely from where I'm sitting. It probably helps me that I've done something similar as town and got lynched for it, or at least I think it was similar. The threat of a lynch does a lot to get people to change their ways, really.

Who are your top 3 reads for scum atm?

Also I'm unsure what to do now that edfrost doesn't take my opinion srsly.
Of course the slot can change from player to player. Different people can give off different reads. It's entirely possible to have a scum read on a player and then not on the replacement. Doesn't look like this is the case here for Faraday, but I've been in games where a replacement has basically been so pro-town that any suspicion of the original player was dismissed as poor play on their part
Well yeah, but if someone's been really scummy and you think they're scum you can't just give the replacement a clean slate either, it shouldn't happen. Ignoring everything the person in the slot did before is just stupid as you're minimizing your chance to get a read on that slot.
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Post Post #543 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:25 am

Post by cruelty »

Faraday wrote:Well yeah, but if someone's been really scummy and you think they're scum you can't just give the replacement a clean slate either, it shouldn't happen. Ignoring everything the person in the slot did before is just stupid as you're minimizing your chance to get a read on that slot.
That's what I'm saying - if someone finds AM suspicious then by all means pursue it, regardless of how the replacement is behaving.
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Post Post #544 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:29 am

Post by Mindgamer »

cruelty wrote:
Mindgamer wrote:1. You're scum and The Tracker is your scumbuddy. You're not going to make your scumbuddy look bad, but of course it's very helpful to put a townie in a bad daylight.
2. You like The Tracker and dislike me.
mate I got a spare seat on the wagon if you're keen.
What do you mean? Did I say something wrong?
EdFrost wrote:If he was vanilla, why didn't he play this way throughout the game? It obviously would've been better for the town, might've lead to a better lynch than Quag day 1 because of poking and prodding. (...) Now that he was forced into claiming vanilla he's suddenly helpful? Sorry if I'm skeptical that you change your playstyle in the middle of the day cause you had to claim.
What an ignorant post. First, let me quote the answer, which you have 'forgotten' for some reason.
Mindgamer wrote:I explained earlier that I overestimated my amount of time and that I was having trouble keeping up with two games at the same time. (...) Now that N881 has finished I have the time to post regularly here.
Second, opinion on me has changed because I am now posting content, not because I claimed Vanilla.
Third, what would make a powerrole claim impossible? What if I had claimed Town Roleblocker, for example? What would you have done to prove this invalid?
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Post Post #545 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:42 pm

Post by EdFrost »

Well, because I don't really have much time or energy to deal with posting real content, here's a filler post that says who make up this hydra.

RayFrost

Amished

All of the ~ F posts are by RayFrost. All outside of those are by Amished. Amished is the designated voter of our pairing.

When I have time/energy to make a content post, I'll do so.

Ta-ta.

~ F
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Post Post #546 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:46 pm

Post by Hoopla »

Why not be FrostEd? that sounds so much better.
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Post Post #547 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:51 pm

Post by cruelty »

ah, amished.

last game i played with amished he went mental, posting a LOT. this is a big departure.
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Post Post #548 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:47 pm

Post by EdFrost »

@cruelty: You mean like how I'm not just posting for myself? I have to somewhat have a check to make sure our suspicions are both aligning, we're both saying what we want to say without spamming the shit outta the thread and making it less obvious when people are lurking? Congrats on trying to imply something with a one way meta tell.

@Faraday: You're giving some obvious mixed signals, but keep going if you think you're clear like that.

There's "only one reason that you're voting me"; so what's the rest of it? Fluff? I've pointed out what either should be a null-tell or influence your position on me towards town or mindgamer towards scum.

Also, you're not actually voting for me. (You had me thinking I was out of my mind, but apparently I was right). You've only voted for RC in your ISO 2; and never unvoted nor voted anybody else. (I know, I did a find-search through your ISO for the word "vote" and nothing bold except for the RC vote showed up).

Also, since you've stated that I've basically been null/done nothing to change a read on a previous player, let's do a similar search for angel, mouse, or angelmouse or just AM to find what you thought was so scummy about ..her?
Faraday wrote:I’d say my second suspect is Angelmouse.

The whole Joke thing, and jumping in at the defense. It’s bad play to interrupt like that and it’s also quite scummy I find. Let people answer questions asked of them.

Says she tends to vote for the person she sees as scummiest yet only fos’d cathart. This was actually in explanation to her FOS too which is odd. The ‘OH TOO EARLY’ stuff

Her iso 3 is sorta hypocritical. Asks if quag has anything else to say when, wait for it..’I have little or nothing to say since my last post though’

Her 6th post of the game and ‘catch up’ is FULL OF CREAMY GOODNESS. And by creamy I mean scummeh. She’s basically ot neutral reads on welp everyone. Has a couple of maybe/maybe nots and one scummy-ish read who she votes for.
Add to that general lurkiness and not providing a lot and I think she’s a good lynch candidate also.
This is it.

The Joke thing apparently is a big deal; but it doesn't apply to mindgamer; even though we did it first and he copied us? Ok....

A FoS is scummy on page 2. I don't know about you but angel was rather newbie, and read like it. She had 230 (about) posts in the almost 2 years that she's been here. So since you're adjusting for general playstyle
Faraday wrote:The Mindgamer wagon doesn't really interest me. I agree his play has been quite odd but. Being defensive is not a scum tell.
that should be taken into consideration.

Having neutral reads isn't scummy; at least if you're not scum, right? You said you have neutral reads so why is it, exactly, that makes angel's neutral reads scummy and not yours?

Obviously the lurking is now taken care of; so.. what's the real reason behind all of this? You're obviously not being clear as you think you're voting for somebody that you're not. There's no "one reason that (you're) voting for (me)" if you're not voting for me in the first place.

@Mindgamer: I know exactly why opinion changed on you; but my point was that the radical playstyle difference timing was rather opportunistic from my perspective. Obviously it's unfortunate if you're town; but from my experience it's not hard to juggle two games. I'm in... 4? right now and I've been prodded once in all of them (and I was just killed in a 5th that I was dealing with as well.

For the claim part: I know what it's like from a scum perspective. You go through fake-claims and look at why a certain one would work and why it wouldn't. If you're not playing like you would as a .. doc, let's say, since Quag is dead. Maybe you don't have a logical explanation for who you protected from night to night that wouldn't get torn to shreds, perhaps you are a breadcrumber and didn't breadcrumb. The only person stopping a fake-claim is yourself; for whatever reasons.

On a somewhat related note: I'd like to point you to a game that Vi had recently modded that I was in (link to come in an EBWOP): It was a mini-theme, with a miller, but without a cop...

Oh shit a brick...

Who's interested in a faraday lynch?
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Post Post #549 (ISO) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:53 pm

Post by EdFrost »

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11680 is the link from Vi's other game that I referenced.

I just had an epiphany, I will tell you all tomorrow night or when *everyone* posts their exact opinion on Faraday. If it's just scum or town, that's fine, I don't expect to make a full case one way or another supporting your read.
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