Newbie 928 (Game Over)

[boberz]

I am not asking you to claim, so stop falling short of claiming VT and making me think your more of a PR.Explain why you made that post about the PR then Vinegar, what did you mean.

How on earth can I have confused everyone in a couple of pages, I only made two cases. It should not be confusing. Actually getting confused too easily is a scum tell, but I dont think you are scum so I will leave that point alone.

Vinegar, you cannot ask me to reiterate my case, and then moan when I repeat the same case I had earlier.

I do not want a counterclaim I implore this loudly!!! Nobody claim there is no need whatsoever.

Yes I still suspect chrono, that is why I made a case against him in a post only minutes ago.

considering I hadn't posted again at the point of boberz last post, of course the case is going to be unchanged... duh

This is the point I was making, I was trying to make you post again.

jumping on my 'chill' statement as buddying

where did this happen???

I did not misrep the one line post. I stretched it, these are different. Of course if misrepping is the worst thing anyone has done I demonstrated at least two ways in which you did it to me. All this is as yet unanswered.

I dont see how me being willing to vote is a scum tell in peoples eyes. If this were true none of us would ever vote. Even in context I explained the vote and allowed room for defence/attack.

I am now being accused of tunnelling two people at the same time. I trust all can see the idiocy of this point.

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To clarify. Does anyone see why Vinegar is very probably a PR, or if I am wrong, does anybody care to tell me why. Nobody has actually addressed this but to me it is obvious.

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I hope that helps

It doesnt. if we all had your approach nobody would say anything.


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I have answered the attack on me in some detail. care to answer my attack on you chrono (rather than take half a sentence like you did last time).

[Chronopie]

He means that in face to face, everyone can see everyone else, and, like poker, some people tend to be better than others, because they can bluff convincingly, without any tells be evident on their face.

From his statement, I'd guess that he tends to react differently irl when lying, so is more easily caught out as scum than others might be. In poker the best players can keep a straight face with good cards

or

bad, so that their opponent cannot tell whether or not they have a good hand. The same principle applies in f2f mafia, with those able to keep a straight face doing better.

As such, not being face to face, there is no need to keep a straight face. So we can show emotions freely. Just keep typing in the same tone.

[boberz]

Btw chrono your post about Vinegar dying in the night is complete WIFOM but what is more likely is if he survives he will probably be scum, but this is actually WIFoM also, so atleast we have evened the playing field.

[Chronopie]

1/ Newbies often expose themselves as partners early, chrono came out to defend cove (not overtly but by shifting attention and misrepresentation) this would be a classic case.

Is this not a buddying accusation?

perhaps I used the wrong phrase. You are identifying us as being buddies. partners. the scum team.

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I am not asking you to claim,

so stop falling short of claiming VT and making me think your more of a PR.

Explain why you made that post about the PR then Vinegar, what did you mean.

So stop almost claiming VT, convince us that you are a PR? i.e claim.

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I started playing in December, finished one game here and roughly five on another site. Still getting the hang (get it?) of it.

1/ When Cove answered the question he did the minimum required. The idea of trying to stimulate discussion is to help town, if people only reply in a sentence providing little information and not searching for info on others they are not helping town. If you are not helping town you are helping scum. If you are helping scum, you are more likely to be scum.

I don't see how cove's initial reply was minimal

2/ Also 6 games is not a small amount, it is a fair few. I fell this was trying to set up an excuse in advance.

Some scummer's have several hundred, so I'd consider 6 small

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Voting scum is a good thing, voting with in sufficient evidence (outside RVS) is not.

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Tunnelling can be committed against two people at once, assuming you beleive them to be the scum team. although I am willing to concede that tunnelling on vinegar is not readily apparent at this point in time. Poor wording on my behalf.

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3/ He did not explain what he was in his one game here, that is vital knowledge.

Are you planning to meta him?

4/ The joke was rubbish. This means he must be very nervous, he is more likely to be nervous as scum particularly if he has not done it before, and especially if he is with another newbie playing with more experienced players.

Nerves is more a newb-tell or null-tell than a scum-tell

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I raised the NK as a possibility only, I accept that may be what the scum want use to think.

[Chronopie]

I started playing in December, finished one game here and roughly five on another site. Still getting the hang (get it?) of it.

1/ When Cove answered the question he did the minimum required. The idea of trying to stimulate discussion is to help town, if people only reply in a sentence providing little information and not searching for info on others they are not helping town. If you are not helping town you are helping scum. If you are helping scum, you are more likely to be scum.

I don't see how cove's initial reply was minimal

2/ Also 6 games is not a small amount, it is a fair few. I fell this was trying to set up an excuse in advance.

Some scummer's have several hundred, so I'd consider 6 small

3/ He did not explain what he was in his one game here, that is vital knowledge.

Are you planning to meta him?

4/ The joke was rubbish. This means he must be very nervous, he is more likely to be nervous as scum particularly if he has not done it before, and especially if he is with another newbie playing with more experienced players.

Nerves is more a newb-tell or null-tell than a scum-tell

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Voting scum is a good thing, voting with in sufficient evidence (outside RVS) is not.

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Tunnelling can be committed against two people at once, assuming you beleive them to be the scum team. although I am willing to concede that tunnelling on vinegar is not readily apparent at this point in time. Poor wording on my behalf.


fixed

[Ren]

@ren: Will you(multiple) reread the thread regularly?

Also that's going to be bloody annoying for scumhunting, considering the wiki article:

at least two personalities routinely take control of the individual's behavior with an associated memory loss that goes beyond normal forgetfulness

As I interpret this (and I did read the whole article) this means that various personalties may have entirely different viewpoints. As such this may mean that one personality will view a certain action as scummy, and will play a certain way, while another will have an entirely different play style?

Yes we will most likely do some re-reads as well as a lot of iso reads. Also yes we do have different perspectives but we collaborate and act as a single entity. If there wasn't some usefulness to having more than one mind working together then why would people create Hydras on this game? Have you ever heard the saying that two heads are better than one? Having seperate opinions allows us to collaborate and better analyze the game to determine who is town and who is scum.

If you believe us to be scum then push for our lynch just like anyone else. If we have opinions that contradict each other they will be posted together and marked as such. For an example lets say that one of us believes a person more likely to be scum while the other believes the same person more likely to be town.

First this would be translated to something along the lines of part of us thinks you are town while part of us thinks you are scum. Which wouldn't be very different from a normal player having both a scum and town read on someone. This would result in us being overall unsure of a persons alignment at which point we would either dig deeper for better reads or move on to someone else while keeping an eye on anyone who looks suspicious to us.

To clarify. Does anyone see why Vinegar is very probably a PR, or if I am wrong, does anybody care to tell me why. Nobody has actually addressed this but to me it is obvious.

We think that finding the PRs should be left to scum. Why help them?

[VinegarEater]

I thought I already went over this earlier, but at any rate:

Cove asked this question earlier, and he used it to imply that I wasn't pro-town because pro-town players don't need to act. I'll give you the explanation I gave him:
When playing Mafia in real life, I'm not exactly a good actor. I feel I'll do better in general at forum mafia because I won't have to act according to expression and such.

However, I did not mean this game in particular. Slight blunder of mine; I need to make less of them.

I can live with null-tell for now.

[VinegarEater]

Oh god, I failed to check the page again.

[VinegarEater]

Let me try to stop forgetting to check the page, and on the plus side it was at least a mercifully short post here-

Boberz, why on earth are you persistently rolefishing?
Second, power roles really do die during the night. A lot. It's not WIFOM to make this connection:
Mafia sees power role
Mafia shoots power role

My theory is that this is going to happen:

You are going to try and convince everyone I am a power role, or that I am a scum. If I am not lynched during the day, you will NOT night-kill me and instead claim the next morning that I'm still alive because I'm scum.

I might be ahead of myself, but it makes sense.

[Kthxbye]

Well holy hell. 58 posts and it's still pregame.

I have not been on top of this game. I was hoping we would confirm and start playing before now. I see most everyone that has confirmed is already playing. I have however skimmed over most the posts enough to realize some are coming up with good scum hunting and even legitimate/logical reasoning behind their suspicions. This bothered me some at the beginning I must admit. It bothered me most of all on page one where cases were being developed with less than 1/2 the people on the roster being confirmed. It bothers me less now that almost everyone is confirmed and we have effectively skipped RVS.

I know there are some questions out there for everyone to answer and I know that there is plenty of material to sift through. I will get to this ASAP with or without Mod approval of official start. I have a crazy work schedule which limits my availability Saturdays through Wednesdays. I won't be V/LA during these days, but posting will be limited as it is today.

I did happen to note one thing in particular that I really wish would stop immediately and that is the discussion of our PR's in this game! I don't understand why it's even being discussed and I certainly hope nobody is asking for a claim before the game is even started! Scum already have an advantage, let's not help them by giving them more info than they already have.

Again, in depth reading ASAP.

[VinegarEater]

Kthxbye-

In the most juvenile way possible, I will point to Boberz and say "HE STARTED IT"

[Kthxbye]

lol.

/sigh...Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to work I go.

I will mention one more thing real quickly. I see Ren has joined the game and there was some discussion to her disorder. I played with her in 909 and this was questioned and discussed fully very early on. To avoid more questions clogging this thread up about it, I suggest reading through the early part of that game to answer concerns. Ren, I would suggest you copy/paste the pertinent Q&A from that game into a wiki or your profile that you can reference people to when you start a game.

Alright, now I'm late....thanks a lot VE.

[Ren]

lol.

/sigh...Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to work I go.

I will mention one more thing real quickly. I see Ren has joined the game and there was some discussion to her disorder. I played with her in 909 and this was questioned and discussed fully very early on. To avoid more questions clogging this thread up about it, I suggest reading through the early part of that game to answer concerns. Ren, I would suggest you copy/paste the pertinent Q&A from that game into a wiki or your profile that you can reference people to when you start a game.

Alright, now I'm late....thanks a lot VE.

Yea that sounds like a good idea. We thought about making a sig or something but never got around to it. We figured that maybe after we play enough times people will just get used to our playstyle but it would be useful to not have to explain our disorder every single game.

What do we have to do to create our own player wiki?

[VinegarEater]

I think you can just make a page on the wiki. Editing might be disabled, in which case you might just have to refer people to your profile.

[VinegarEater]

er, wait, I just realized I merely rephrased your question. I am a fail?

[Ren]

Nevermind think we just figured it out. Just searched for our name and no result but there was a link to "create this page." Dunno why we didn't think of that before.

[VinegarEater]

Great. Let me look up your page to see if it works or if I can find it.

[Ren]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Ren

[VinegarEater]

:Applause:

Good job, but making wiki articles is a clear scumtell.

Ok, with any luck the game will start soon and we'll get into the interesting stuff.

[Cove]

I'm still here, just one busy day today. What I am seriously peaved about is the lack of game "starting" yet. There is a terrible advantage we're giving the last person to confirm. They can read everything we've said and modify their initial behaviour accordingly. I was hoping this wasn't going to be a big deal yesterday, but now that we've hit the second, and tomorrow probably the third, day without starting, it's not looking good.

I already had read over game 909, when doing an initial meta read while waiting for game to start. I was focusing on Kthxbye, but became really enraptured in Ren's situation. Welcome to the game.

Now, opinions on what has transpired:

boberz: I am glad to see he has focused on others, it really sucks being tunneled against on (or before) Day 1. As per his cases, I think he might be shooting himself in the foot. He may have been able to save some of his accusations for later, when he had more corroborating evidence. Some of the accusations were contingent upon future behaviour, which you may have altered in the process.

Chrono: He did misrepresent boberz' case when he stated that the case was all about a joke, and I find it a stretch to claim that boberz is tunneling on two people at the same time. The tunneling and buddying issues are definitely centered around differing uses of the words, from what I can see.

VinegarEater: Too much WIFOM on the go here. I'm going to take his first statement into account though, when considering his future actions. Hopefully they're not all centered around PR talk. One thing I will comment on is that listing people in order of willingness to vote/pressure/lynch/etc. might be something that is left until closer to deadline when it looks like bargaining has to happen to secure a lynch. They can be used as tools by scum to determine who to kill.

Kthxbye: About what I'd expect from him considering his limited posting time. I hope your absenses don't affect game flow.

Others: I will report back on tomorrow, I'm going to get 4 hours sleep at this rate.

[hohum]

sirdanilot replaces springlullaby.

With that

Day 1 has officially begun. No votes up to this point will be counted.

Good luck!

[Steely Gaze]

Wow, I go to sleep and come back to a full page of posts. I think I ought to state, for the record, that I live at -5 GMT, and I'm usually off the computer anywhere from 8:00pm to 8:00am local time. So if I don't respond for a couple of hours per day, that's why.

Now, I've some things I'd care to bring up, so I'm going to get to creating a real game post.

[Steely Gaze]

How on earth can I have confused everyone in a couple of pages, I only made two cases. It should not be confusing. Actually getting confused too easily is a scum tell, but I dont think you are scum so I will leave that point alone.

Boberz, you seem extremely fond of bringing up scumtells, whether or not they really make sense. For instance, why on Earth would being confused be a scumtell? Scum often actively try to confuse town, not the other way around.

Your two cases are also built on fairly shoddy construction, your first one used mainly to get the game going (even though we hadn't officially started yet), and your second? Well it's full of shoddy logic save for your last two points.

Your first point against Chrono being he didn't seem to like you scumhunting? I didn't see that at all from his posts. He had some faulty reasoning, particularly in his silly tunneling argument, but I don't see where you could claim he didn't want you scumhunting.

Point two is that he didn't provide any scumhunting for the town? Again, this is as weak as your first point. After all, so long as a player doesn't post fluff he aids the town in getting a better understanding of his position. As it stands, two players haven't made a lot of posts in this crazy, hectic game, Kthxbye and nessarae56. Now, Kthxbye explained his absence so I'm not suspicious of him at this point in time.

Nessarae, however, has posted the bare minimum, even though I daresay this game began before the starting bell. That makes me instantly suspicious. Any player who just hangs in the background does not impress upon me townish behavior. Her last post was absolutely useless, giving us nothing new to digest, very carefully not getting involved in any of the ongoing debates, and generally saying she had nothing to say.

I think I've finally found a reason to put a bit of faith in meta-reads. *goes off to search for some of nessarae's other games*

[Ren]

Since the game has started

Vote: Boberz

for trying to kill the RVS and for rolefishing.

[sirdanilot]

Heya', I'm almost done reading the thread and will comment soon. I''m a bit busy right now though so don't expect huge cases for the time being.

I am your official IC, meaning I am an experienced player who can help you with game theory, difficult acronyms etc. However, above all I'm just a player just like you.