Prisoner's Dilemma Mafia II {Game Over!}

[Narsis]

As for the rest of your post, you make many valid points in your post. I think sending

2 scum is obviously the best choice

but sending 2 confirmed townies would be a good thing too.

How so? I think it would be a bad choice because they would vote "No" on each other, gaining the Daykill or the Prison Immunity. Not so much. 1 possible scum vs. 1 confirmed townie seems to be most viable.

@Narsis: Doesn't matter when they were sent out, you still creep me out. And you claimed to be evil. You have been weighed and measured.

evil i may be, but i am 100% pro-town. however, i shall let my play speak for me and leave the final decision to the town.

anyway...i just thought of something: would a miller traditionally know he's a miller? what about a death miller?

[CounselWolf]

evil i may be, but i am 100% pro-town. however, i shall let my play speak for me and leave the final decision to the town.

And here, we have our second early game claim. I don't really think you should be taking my Random Sends as my gospel. I'm just trying to get a rise out of you, but please, don't be so flighty and defensive. It makes you seem a little bit...skittish, I'll say as of now. Since we have until Groundhog Day to come to a consensus, I'm more than certain that my votes will change to someone more legitimately scummy.

anyway...i just thought of something: would a miller traditionally know he's a miller? what about a death miller?

With the amount of pretzeliness we've been told to expect, I think it could go either way. Lowell hasn't really said enough to give us a tell as to whether or not he truly is a miller/death miller.

[Plum]

evil i may be, but i am 100% pro-town. however, i shall let my play speak for me and leave the final decision to the town.

And here, we have our second early game claim. I don't really think you should be taking my Random Sends as my gospel. I'm just trying to get a rise out of you, but please, don't be so flighty and defensive. It makes you seem a little bit...skittish, I'll say as of now. Since we have until Groundhog Day to come to a consensus, I'm more than certain that my votes will change to someone more legitimately scummy.

anyway...i just thought of something: would a miller traditionally know he's a miller? what about a death miller?

With the amount of pretzeliness we've been told to expect, I think it could go either way. Lowell hasn't really said enough to give us a tell as to whether or not he truly is a miller/death miller.

Send: CouselWolf

Semi-random - I wouldn't consider Narsis' statement as a claim.

Send: Plum

Well, I don't consider it much of a self-vote, as my going to prison has potential benefits, etc. In fact, I'd say that I advocate sending two townish players to prison, if their townishness is determined by a substantial and convinced majority of the town. Yeah, big 'if'. Instruct them to choose 'No', hope to goodness that scumpowers won't screw things up (I didn't read the mini-game in-depth, but occasionally did skim it and take a glance. If possible I'll do a mild reread).

Yeah, Sly's 'the Death Miller' statement. Huh - the wording implies some knowledge of a Death Miller - sketchy, but the premise is hard to believe. I doubt there'll be a Death Miller, but then I've never been in a game with one and don't really know how much to trust that mod-guess gut.

A wise player once said that a Miller claim should be treated as a Vanilla claim: if the player acts scummy, lynch, and if not, don't. Simple-ish.

[SlySly]

A rather controversial twist is

the Death Miller

, whose alignment is shown as "guilty" by the Moderator upon death.

This is why I said "the", I should have said "a".

Nevertheless, there is a big difference between a miller and the/a Death Miller. The games I am aware of that have had Death Millers, have only had one.

[Kublai Khan]

As for the rest of your post, you make many valid points in your post. I think sending

2 scum is obviously the best choice

but sending 2 confirmed townies would be a good thing too.

How so? I think it would be a bad choice because they would vote "No" on each other, gaining the Daykill or the Prison Immunity. Not so much. 1 possible scum vs. 1 confirmed townie seems to be most viable.

Horrible logic by both SlySly & CounselWolf.

The only time sending 2 scum together is only a good choice when circumstances align exactly like it did on the last night of the first Prisoner's Dilemma. The chance that these circumstances will repeat is unlikely.

If we sent 1 townie and 1 scum, then the most likely outcome is that they will try to kill each other, surviving only by chance (avg % lethality).

The best thing to do is to send confirmed town and those we suspect are most likely to be town. We do this to gain more pro-town abilities, because Vigging will be the best way to dispatch of scum.

Of course, all the above is idealistic considering that the mod surely has tricks up his sleeve. Nevertheless, I think it's our best course of action.

[SlySly]

Horrible logic by ... SlySly ...

The only time sending 2 scum together is only a good choice when circumstances align exactly like it did on the last night of the first Prisoner's Dilemma.

My thinking was if there are no townies in prison, the scum can't break in and kill them but if there was no break in, the confirmed townies could get the beneficial outcome of 2 "yes" votes.

[SlySly]

EBWOP: 2 "no" votes

[Kublai Khan]

Horrible logic by ... SlySly ...

The only time sending 2 scum together is only a good choice when circumstances align exactly like it did on the last night of the first Prisoner's Dilemma.

My thinking was if there are no townies in prison, the scum can't break in and kill them but if there was no break in, the confirmed townies could get the beneficial outcome of 2 "yes" votes.

In the original PD, scum had 1 break-in. They could have a couple more in this bigger game. However most of their kills came from regular NKs.

So worrying about break-ins is a weird blinder to have on.

[ortolan]

Especially because there are three pairs going to prison every night now.

[SlySly]

They could have a couple more in this bigger game.

You've got a point. This is my first large game, I didn't even think about that in the perspective of how many actions may be available.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I don't want to go the send two townie-looking players to prison route.

[Tuberkulos]

I am a

miller

. Discuss.

Are you serious?

[solorpg]

If we send 2 scummy-looking players to prison, should we expect to see yes/yes unless both players are scum?

I'm a bit overwhelmed by the set-up for the game, but I think Kublai is pretty much on the right track in terms of a general strategy. However, sending 2 townie players could backfire if they don't actually trust each other - yes/yes = disaster. No/no could also mean we're wrong about both... Do we get to know what the people chose as their powers?

[Empking]

Let's just gert six day-vigs.

; Send: Lowell

Send: Narsis

[freeko]

With 25 people int he game would it not be realistic to think that there is a 3rd party in this game? Maybe I am just inexperienced and way over my head here, but a SK role would fit perfectly here in this game.

I could be way off, but when I played in a 26 person game elsewhere, there were 4 mafia members and 2 players of a 3rd party in the game.

I just cannot fathom there not being a 3rd party of some kind in this game at all.

@ Empking: do you want 6 day-vigs because like the other game your night kills are limited and have to ssomehow figure out how to mow down 20+ other people in the game?

vote Empking, vote Lowell

@lowell: I just do not under any circumstances believe an unsolicited claim of a miller at all. At least for me you are going to have to do better than that.

As a clarification, wouldnt a pair consisting of 2 scum just say no and take the free extra kills? I am thinking that their ability to night kill is limited and with 6 people potentially being sent to prison I am also deducing that there are possibly up to 6 anti-town players within the game.

I, of course, could be wrong.

[Empking]

No, I want six day vigs as it changes town controlled kills from basically 0 to 6.

[Percy]

"Send two townish people, and demand that they say "no" to the question so they get powers."

I think this is the most sensible approach, but we will have to talk about what powers they select and who they use them on as well.

We should take as much control over the sending process as we can. Whilst there are some things we cannot predict, we should try and get the most out of it. As we control what powers people get and who they use them on, the risk of us sending a scumplayer is greatly reduced - they will be put in a restricted and stressful position, as if they do anything with their powers other than what we decide, we lynch them.

Let's get 3 DKs and 3 Protects, shall we? Basically gives us lynches and protection. Investigate doesn't seem as attractive.

Send: Kublai Khan
Send: Plum

- mild town vibes for each of them.

[freeko]

No, I want six day vigs as it changes town controlled kills from basically 0 to 6.

I am definately not buying this at all. Why would you want 6 kills this early in the game? Thats just absolutely stupid. From a town point of view, at least. It almost makes me think that you are more likely 3rd party like an SK or something and want to speed along the process by having everyone run around killing each other. For this express purpose, and this purpose alone. If I am put into prison on day one, I will vote no. ThenI will kill you when I get out. you jumped onto the top of my list of anti-town players.

There is an informed mafia group and a very large uninformed group. Now you want to give the uninformed group the ability to kill 6 people within the game? That is absurd. Wouldnt the town want to gather information before blindly killing off almost a quarter of the players int he game. Assuming the breakdown is the way I think it might be, then by doing this and gaining 6 day kills you will almost assuredly only speed the process of the town losing the game. i am farily certaint hat 6 sane cop investigations would be much more relevant than 6 daykills. Also, how about this little trinket. What if you jsut voted 2 scum players in? they will both say no and go about prancing all over your dead body when the next day begins. you just gave the mafia 3 kills isntead of one. Brilliant.

[Empking]

With those six cop results what do we do? We can't lynch the scum or trust the results.

We do gather info, I'm not suggesting we choose six random players and then get those players to kill six random players at the same time.

[doctor no]

But like sending scummy looking players early on will do somewhat good, because most probably their roles might be confirme.
I don't like Seraphim's expert approach so early so

Send: Seraphim

and lets

Send: Empking

Just for the six vigs thing.
Note that these votes are semi random.

[Percy]

I thought Daykills and Protects were better than Investigates as they remove the 'middle man'.

Daykills we use as lynches, and the towniest looking people get protection out of those not on their way to jail. If the protection fails or the daykill is used on someone else or not used at all, we lynch that person.

Investigate will give us information which will help us confirm scum before we lynch/DK them. I have no idea whether knowing the "results" will make our decision any surer, given that it might come down to a judgement call between investigator and investigated.

If we can confirm that someone

chose

the investigate power, this would be a much better option.

[Empking]

Yeah investigate isn't that good. I'd argue that 6/0 is better than 3/3 unless the protectors block 1/2 or better.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

however you said, "are you

the

Death miller?" that assumes you know there is a death miller.

This.

[freeko]

It could simply be my overall inexperience with the game in general, but this game is certainly different.

I really dont feel that I should go into much detail as it would completely ruin how I want to play the game. Both short term and long term. Not that I completely understand it as it stands anyway. From what I can tell though, it still benefits the obviously uninformed town to gain information before having everyone run around with all sorts of daykills. Once you isolate the anti-town forces within the game then you start sending in pairs that will most likely result in the mafia being killed off.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Ignore the above post. I posted before reading page 3. I still don't like the mistake, considering that post 55 makes it look like Sly never played in PDM I. You seem to be acting too noobish, like you're purposefully trying to look like you don't know what you're doing or what the possible game mechanics could be.

I don't want to go the send two townie-looking players to prison route.

Why? What is your suggestion then ABR?

I think that sending two "scum" is out of the question because, even though they almost have to follow the town's will as far as picking what abilities and who to use them on, there is always the possibility for them to try to manipulate things behind the scenes. It's too easy for a WIFOM argument to be set up so that they can look blameless for a dayvig kill, for instance. Just blame it on the "town majority" wanted the kill, thereby washing their hands of the whole thing.

I think we have to either send the two most townie people, or send 1 "townie" and 1 "scum". I'm not sure what the ramifications of sending one of each will be though. The two townie scenario seems like the best way to go because (making the assumption that the two people we pick as most townie are actually town) the two townie players would want to help their side out as much as possible, and therefore we don't have to worry about them trying to work the system to their advantage because of a hidden scum-driven agenda.