Mini 909: Nice'n'Fun Mafia (Game Over)

[hitogoroshi]

here is, as near as I can tell, the entire case on RC:

Ok Red, let's take your vote seriously.

I seriously got the impression that cruelty voted Quagmire almost purely out of spite

, especially after their little slapfest at the end of the day. He won't agree with that characterization of course, but the town can draw their own conclusions. cruelty played a big part in artifically extending that wagon.

He either did so out of emotion and principle, being against Quagmire's D1 play, or he did so to because he did not want another wagon to garner any steam

, as lynching townQuagmire or (supposedly) townTheTracker would've been good enough.

That's inconsistent. The first bolded part, you're sure I'm basing my vote on emotion, then you're suddenly ascribing devious logic to it, saying that I artificially extended the wagon out of

either

spite or strategy.

That's not a case. That's a silly little justification for a vote with a backdoor you can quietly slip out if things don't work out.

I'm not at all convinced that's enough reasoning for a vote, and I'm curious to know why Hoopla and Tracker think differently. (Tracker isn't voting RC, I know, but he says 'he can see why' and quite frankly I can't.)

Cruelty, after coming back from V/LA you really haven't done anything but vote RC because of a vote on you that's not well-justified enough. You've talked about no one besides yourself and RC, except for one brief point about flare. It's been what, four days? What happened to your tracker suspicion? What do you think about the other 9-10 players?

That being said, it makes sense enough that if you're not fully in the game you probably won't notice too much beyond the vote on you. Look at the other players, man. A vote on RC is just insane at this point. I especially don't like that Hoopla apparently has all these reasons for wanting to vote for RC and yet had to wait for cruelty to vote before she would.

If you read and honestly have reasons for not wanting to lynch mindgamer (and those reasons will have to , I'll pretty comfortable with a Tracker lynch (there's a decent chance he's telling the truth with his FBI agent claim but if he's going to stay hyper-defensive and literally respond to claims that he's not posting content with insults I stop caring) or a flare lynch (his town points for 378 have been lost by 406's 'no town reads, favorite lynch candidate is player who I thought had scum on their wagon nine iso posts ago.') But seriously cruelty, as long as you ignore any player who's not voting for you I can't take you or your vote seriously. If you honestly think you can make a case why RC is a better lynch candidate than those three, I guess you can try, but I can't imagine anyone thinking that at this point and I get the feeling it's just you reacting hardest to the parts that concern you. This isn't inherently scummy so I'm not voting you for it, but it is anti-town so I'm asking you to stop.

[Mindgamer]

He seems to be cracking under pressure a bit.

Could you elaborate on this?

[EdFrost]

That's not much of a case.

Hoopla, why do you feel RC is scummy?

[EdFrost]

Ok, why the hell has nobody asked this yet?

@Tracker: Who did you investigate last night and why?

[Cruciare]

Vote Count

Mindgamer (4)

hitogoroshi, AGar, Nachomamma8, The Tracker

RedCoyote (2)

cruelty, Hoopla

The Tracker (1)

EdFrost

hitogoroshi (1)

Flareonage

cruelty (1)

RedCoyote

Not Voting (1)

Mindgamer

With ten alive, it takes six to stone to death.

[RedCoyote]

6 players are bad news, and those (3) on the MG wagon are cleared in your eyes?

*Four.

Flare, Hoopla, you, and Mindgamer.

I guess you get six if you add me and angelmouse into that count of yours, even though I specifically said that me and angelmouse's replacement were exceptions...

I am fairly sure there is one scum in that group, and possibly more.

Also, can you please tell me where I said anyone was clear? Or did you just make that part up?

---

I'll read the thread and get back to you guys.

Welcome to the game, Ed.

The hot issues of the day seem to be Mindgamer's first vote and subsequent pessimism following a wagon on him, and talk of alternative wagons (take note of all the people being voted who aren't Mindgamer).

The only people I could see having a realistic shot at being lynched are Mindgamer, Nacho, and cruelty. This is of course depending on how you and Flare fall down, because right now both of y'all are kind of wild cards in the game.

I was pretty fond of angelmouse, so you're starting off in a good position in my book. On day 1, as you've already referred to, we lynched Quagmire. So we have two flipped town power roles, and one player who as claimed to be the third (The Tracker). The end of post 334 summarizes my cruelty vote, compounded by his unwillingness to give an offense beyond OMGUS.

@Tracker: Who did you investigate last night and why?

Lol, that

would

be a good question.

Tracker, why didn't you ever bring this up?

---

I like hito's 425, and I feel as though him, AGar, and, to an extent, Nacho, are the only players actively following this game and giving solid commentary. Neither Hoopla nor The Tracker seem to want to argue with me or read my posts, which is kind of new to me.

I don't mind being voted, it's happened many a time and it will happen many more, but it's rare that someone votes me and precedes to ignore and refuse to engage me.

[Nachomamma8]

If we are scrambling for a lynch at deadline, we have such low chances of actually hitting scum. If we want to lynch scum, we need to organise it before it's too late.

Congratulations, you're stating the obvious. Instead of just saying things that sound pro-town, why don't you do something that'll make sure we don't have to scramble for a lynch at deadline (i.e. actively scumhunting, being more aggressive on a wider range of people, actually making a case on someone...)

Speaking of which, your case on RC is weak. Try harder, please. What do you think of Mindgamer? What do you think of Tracker?

[EdFrost]

Yeah yeah, the first skim through is complete; there's just a couple things that I wanna read again (more focused on recent events) so it'll be a little longer.

Shouldn't take more than a day I'm expecting.

Also, how did we find out that Vi reviewed the setup (if at all); as if that's true that can tell us quite a bit about the game itself.

I also remember that this is our mods first game (welcome to mod-hood) as well, and so far you look to be doing a pretty good job of it .

[cruelty]

*Four.

Flare, Hoopla, you, and Mindgamer.

I guess you get six if you add me and angelmouse into that count of yours, even though I specifically said that me and angelmouse's replacement were exceptions...

Eh, missed Tracker's vote, included AM deliberately. So six. Shrug.

Also, can you please tell me where I said anyone was clear? Or did you just make that part up?

here:

everyone who isn't on the Mindgamer wagon is bad news

We can extrapolate 2 things from that quote:

1: You have doubts about everyone not on the Mindgamer wagon (like it's scummy to be off it??).
2: You have a strong town read from the people on the wagon.

The only people I could see having a realistic shot at being lynched are Mindgamer, Nacho, and cruelty

Towncoaching much?

I was pretty fond of angelmouse

I looked into this, I can't really see it. You made one post (your iso 12) stating this:

I love this statement to death. This is the kind of critical thinking that I think the game has been lacking.

I like post 202 in general

but you were fairly critical of her in the early game:

This seems... off. This seems borderline defensive of The Tracker rather than just a general disagreement.

This sounds to me like you are covering all your bases and backpedaling a bit.

I'm not really seeing your love for angel to be honest. I get that you liked one post of hers, but you're being critical of her in the early game in my mind nullifies that. I think that this too is a little inconsistent.

See, I'm in a tricky situation. There is no one I can go with to prop an alternative lynch.

Don't like the way this is worded. It almost feels like AtE. I think a big part of my problem with you is the way you articulate yourself, it's coming off (for me) as really fuckin sly.

A vote on RC is just insane at this point

Is it? Why?

I don't understand the MG wagon.

Looking at AGar's iso 10, there are 4 points against him:
1: Active lurking.
2: Posting fluff (I'd say that's basically the same as 1, but eh).
3: Didn't hammer Quag, retracted his early Tracker vote.
4: The RVS thing.

So three things, none of which I'm particularly feeling. I understand the logic, I'm just not really getting a scum vibe. Given Quagmire's flip, I'm hesitant to vote away from my gut (which is saying RC).

[AGar]

Ok, why the hell has nobody asked this yet?

@Tracker: Who did you investigate last night and why?

He's an FBI Agent via his claim. He only is interested in finding the SK. If he null-reads, we don't need to know who that person is - it provides us with NO info. We're focused first on lynching scum.

RC - don't be so sure of your safety. I personally, as I said, have a neutral read. If I'm forced between lynching a neutral read, a town read and a no lynch, I'm picking the neutral read.

[EdFrost]

AGar - So if another kill shows up we shouldn't know who *isn't* an SK?

[The Tracker]

@hito: Obviously I don't think that's good enough reasoning for a vote if I'm not voting him.

For those of you asking for my result, I don't see the need since it's of no use to anyone, but it was Mindgamer. I got a no off of him. So Mindgamer's not the SK.

Red, here's the thing, I don't find any discrepancies in your post to build a solid case on. Just little things that don't equate to a vote. If you're not confident in your vote or case, why bother with one? That's one of my rules.

[EdFrost]

And why'd you choose Mindgamer?

[The Tracker]

Lurking and staying under the radar as well as following popular voting trends are more cause for suspect than just normal scumminess. SK's are incredibly invested in their own survival even moreso than scum due to the win condition that if they die, it's game over. Scum has pals in this setup so even if they get lynched they can still win.

[EdFrost]

And how do you feel that (not an SK) affected your start of day process?

[AGar]

AGar - So if another kill shows up we shouldn't know who *isn't* an SK?

If another had shown up, it would be helpful.

But it's not likely, imo. Unless someone gambitted a no-NK on Night 1 (doesn't make sense for either party if you ask me), I'm highly skeptical of the presence of a SK.

And saying someone isn't an SK doesn't help us out at the moment.

[EdFrost]

I recently saw a game where there were two scum teams and there wasn't a single night that went by that didn't have a doubled up kill. That doesn't fly with me, I explore all possibilities.

Also, this line of questioning gets an insight into a fellow player's mind and thought process which can (and is) helpful. So bugger off for a bit and question something else.

[The Tracker]

And how do you feel that (not an SK) affected your start of day process?

It didn't. I started the day the same way I start all day phases.

[RedCoyote]

We can extrapolate 2 things from that quote:

1: You have doubts about everyone not on the Mindgamer wagon (like it's scummy to be off it??).
2: You have a strong town read from the people on the wagon.

1) Why would I have doubts about anyone not on the Mindgamer wagon if I'm not even on it? Again, I specifically made my mindset clear by using the word coincidentally, and, in what I don't think is a coincidence, you just so happened to leave that out of your quote.
2) You're using false logic when you make the assumption that I am "clearing" everyone on the Mindgamer wagon. I stated that I don't feel comfortable with you, Hoopla, Flare, and Mindgamer's positions as town. That's it. It's a fallacy to think that necessarily implies I get a "strong town read" off of everyone else.

I contend that you're trying to box me into a corner with these kinds of narrow comments.

Towncoaching much?

I don't know what that means, but I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise. Perhaps you have, but I'd call that unrealistic.

I'm not really seeing your love for angel to be honest. I get that you liked one post of hers, but you're being critical of her in the early game in my mind nullifies that. I think that this too is a little inconsistent.

Well, given that for most of Day 1, you, Hoopla, Cyberbob, AGar, and hito were focused on punishing Quagmire, I found common ground with Nacho, angel, and, eventually, hito's reluctance to take part in the Quagmire debacle. While I won't argue with you that I was cooled to her as the game began, it was pretty clear that once we began arguing serious things, namely lynching, I agreed with her perspective far more than anyone who honestly supported lynching Quagmire.

I think a big part of my problem with you is the way you articulate yourself, it's coming off (for me) as really fuckin sly.

XD

---

RC - don't be so sure of your safety. I personally, as I said, have a neutral read. If I'm forced between lynching a neutral read, a town read and a no lynch, I'm picking the neutral read.

I'm confident Ed, as an outsider coming in, will see cruelty's self-servicing for what it is. I'm confident Hoopla's unimpressive droning will do more to push you and other rational townies away than it will to rope you in. I'm confident in Flare being supportive of me, or at least unpredictable enough to not be counted on for a vote. You put all that together with what hito and Nacho have said about me, and my lynch doesn't look like a very reasonable outcome today.

Hoopla still may snap out of whatever trance she's in, but even if she doesn't, I don't see a cruelty or Nacho lynch as unreasonable. I think, when push comes to shove, I can put together scenarios for both of those wagons. Mindgamer is of course still the favorite, I think, in everyone's book, but it's most definitely not a sure thing.

---

Red, here's the thing, I don't find any discrepancies in your post to build a solid case on. Just little things that don't equate to a vote. If you're not confident in your vote or case, why bother with one? That's one of my rules.

Thank you, I think.

But I think I understand where you are coming from. All I wanted to explain in my previous post was that I had addressed cruelty in post 396, and it didn't seem like you or Hoopla acknowledged it.

[The Tracker]

I read your posts, bro. And that last part where I explain one of my rules is just a rule I play by. That explains why I don't vote so much right off the bat.

I don't have anything of much import to say on either you or cruelty as of now. I'm more concerned with Mindgamer being presented with the necktie at this point in time.

[EdFrost]

It didn't. I started the day the same way I start all day phases.

And how do you start all day phases?

Why do you have a consistent 'starting day phases' plan?

I would also like to point out that you didn't respond to RC when he asked you

why you didn't bring up who you investigated

.

Do so now, please.

~ F

[EdFrost]

I read your posts, bro. And that last part where I explain one of my rules is just a rule I play by. That explains why I don't vote so much right off the bat.

I don't have anything of much import to say on either you or cruelty as of now.

I'm more concerned with Mindgamer being presented with the necktie at this point in time.

I would also like to ask why you are so

eager

for the lynch to happen soon. There's nothing wrong with wanting a lynch, but you saying that it's your

main concern

and not really giving much input elsewhere gives me bad feelings.

There's still things to be discussed and analyzed, ranging from people determining what they think about this player slot with the replacing in to the defenses/cases put forth that are still going on.

Mindgamer may be the favorite to lynch (I agree that mindgamer is scummy), but that shouldn't maintain sole focus when there are other things to consider as well.

~ F

[Hoopla]

Hoopla still may snap out of whatever trance she's in, but even if she doesn't, I don't see a cruelty or Nacho lynch as unreasonable. I think, when push comes to shove, I can put together scenarios for both of those wagons. Mindgamer is of course still the favorite, I think, in everyone's book, but it's most definitely not a sure thing.

What trance is that, mister?

[Hoopla]

If we are scrambling for a lynch at deadline, we have such low chances of actually hitting scum. If we want to lynch scum, we need to organise it before it's too late.

Congratulations, you're stating the obvious. Instead of just saying things that sound pro-town, why don't you do something that'll make sure we don't have to scramble for a lynch at deadline (i.e. actively scumhunting, being more aggressive on a wider range of people, actually making a case on someone...)

Speaking of which, your case on RC is weak. Try harder, please. What do you think of Mindgamer? What do you think of Tracker?

Hey mate, I'm organising a lynch on RC, that's about as proactive as it gets! I acknowledge my 'case' on RC is weak (I personally don't think it's a case) - it's more a genuine inkling that his response to the Quagmire wagon is fabricated. I understand that chaps like you need neat dot point cases to consider someone scummy, and I will do that, just for you. Give me a moment please.

Mindgamer lacks motivation (fair enough), but the wagon on him I don't disagree with (I think I've said that).

Tracker is still 95% town according to me, but this is based on what he said about his role PM, which I'm apparently not allowed to repeat.

*twiddles thumbs*

~~

Ed, I haven't forgotten about your inquiries. I'm responding to it shortly.

[Hoopla]

I'm not sure how to summarize a concise case on RedCoyote, because he posts in big blobs and is very wordy. But here is some posts that tickled me incorrectly;

This is all a big smokescreen, and I won't really have any part in it any longer. It is a waste of our time, and it's distracting most of the townies from doing anything else. I don't know whether or not it's worth using the lynch on Quagmire if only the quell this principled uproar, but I don't think everyone on his wagon is there honestly. I implore those voting him to keep a closer eye on your wagon buddies as the day marches on.

Because it's a red herring. We're missing opportunities to get multiple wagons going. The strategy in question is causing smokescreen, and D1 is turning into a referendum on the strategy itself. You can discuss mafia politics in the Mafia Discussion forum, let's use this thread to discuss who in our town is scummy. I've proposed Flare as a D1 lynch on account of his spinelessness and flipfloping. Nacho thinks that we're letting The Tracker get away with too much. Are you interested in these cases at all, Hoopla?

Look at Red condemning it for all it's worth - the thing that makes me click, is the amount of huffing and puffing he does about how it's a smokescreen, but he then never contributes to any other major wagon. In fact his opinions on The Tracker are limited to a couple of little quotes - this the most substancial;

I like Nacho's 132, and I think he breaths a little life into what may or may not have been a dying Tracker wagon.

I think it's really weird (assuming The Tracker is town) for Red to take such a stance (or non stance). I can see merit in him chasing Flare in between his sandwich of Quagmire votes - but I was surprised how little interaction he with The Tracker considering his mantra for wanting competing wagons.

~~

Also, this frustrated me;

A Tracker flip does not bode well for our Miller claim.

Trying to scoop suspicion on me, when an FBI Agent was alive without an SK. I imagine Red to be more logical to not not see the comparisons between the two. But we've covered this.