Open 314: CSL Express [SCUM WINS]

[Tragedy]

Votecount 1.3

TheLonging [0] -
yourfriendlynoggin [0] -
drmyshottyizsik [0] -
Oversoul [0] -
Hiraki [0] -
don_johnson [0] -
andrew94 [0] -

Vifam [2] - drmyshottyizsik, Hiraki

(L-3)
Coventry [0] -

Not Voting

: None

Required 5 to Lynch, 4 to No Lynch.
Deadline is at July 3rd, 3 PM.

yourfriendlynoggin/andrew94/don_johnson are V/LA

[drmyshottyizsik]

How?

[Oversoul]

Because it looks like an opportunity lynch.

[drmyshottyizsik]

I didn't hammer.

[andrew94]

hiraki please respond to my last post.

@shotty, where is ur case against vifam, u seemed to be going for hiraki be4

[Coventry]

Hi, everyone. Sorry for sleeping through the first day. I have just a few observations. I’ll make them as brief as possible and try not to be a bore.

First, of course, there are those who were so quiet as to blend into the décor. I have nothing for yourfriendlynoggin and very little for Vifam or Andrew94, so I’ll get to them first. I’ll stay away from block quotes because in even a one day recap I find they can make the post painfully long but I’ll reference post numbers where it seems appropriate.

Vifam, perhaps your most interesting post was #146 in thread. In this post you tell Shotty to “back up” because Hiraki “hasn’t done anything scummy” and vote for Neil because of his “tough guy act”. What interests me here is that Shotty had just launched his attack on Hiraki, turning attention in Hiraki’s direction for the first time. And of course poor grumpy Neil had already attracted a fair amount of ill-will and suspicion, so it was an easy vote to make and also raised the real possibility of Neil responding in some way that would make him look even more guilty.

This would all be less curious if Hiraki, who you defended in that post, hadn’t thrown a sleepy second morning vote in your direction with the hint that his vote for you was all about proving Don_Johnson was scum. But given that could you explain why you finally decided to vote for Neil just as some attention was being focused on Hiraki? I mean Neil had been grumpy Mr. Cries a Lot pretty much from the start and I can’t believe you found nothing suspicious in any of Hiraki’s first day actions. So if you could tell us a little about your thought process here I would appreciate it very much. Thank you.


Andrew94, just a couple of things. In post #110 in thread you vote Oversoul and say your reasons are the same as Hiraki’s. But Hiraki gave no reasons, simply quoted, in its entirety, a post made by Oversoul.

Now Oversoul’s post was bad. It was sickly sweet and commented on everyone without pointing out anything new or putting pressure on anyone. It was a post made by someone who wanted to be seen as contributing without actually doing so, and so you’re talking about either a timid and clueless passenger on this train or scum wearing a “come on, guys, let’s get those baddies—whoever they are” mask. But since Hiraki hadn’t given reasons I’m just curious as to your wording. It’s a tiny thing…but you know, it’s a thing.

In post #153 in thread you praise Shotty’s post #147. You know, the one where Shotty has his “Eureka” moment because Hiraki used the word bussing after Shotty accused him of bussing Neil without actually using the word.

You know, early on, when Hiraki was banging on Neil non-stop while also posting that Neil was “bad town” I had a passing suspicion that they might be together. But by post #147 Hiraki was going after Neil pretty hard. If they were both scum Hiraki was right, he would have been bussing them, and it was at this point that Shotty made his accusation. So considering Hiraki using the word bussing suspicious is sort of like:

Shotty: Hiraki, I think you murdered and ate your girlfriend.
Hiraki: I’m not a cannibal.
Shotty: How interesting! No one here said you were a cannibal.

Anyway, if you could offer some thoughts on why you thought that post was so good and similarly why you thought Hiraki’s reasons were so good when he took a swipe at Oversoul I’d appreciate it very much.

And oops, getting long anyway, so I’ll break these up. I’ll have some more soonest. Glad to be up and around and once again, hi everybody.

[Coventry]

Hi, just me again. I promise I won’t do this constantly, but I’m just catching up.

The Longing

, way, way back in post #77 you said you had a couple solid leads. If they haven’t evaporated would you be so kind as to share your thoughts?

You haven’t posted much but a couple of your posts (#79 and to a lesser extent #83) were in quick defense of Vifam, and this ends in voting for Sigma in your post #85. Honestly, I thought the finger in Vifam’s direction was pretty weak, too, and Sigma did look a little shady early in the day…but considering how few posts you’ve made why the quick defense? So early on day one why not let Vifam fight his own battle? I’m just a little curious?

I’m more curious about something you did later. In posts #125, #128 and #132 you go after Neil from various directions. You know, telling him it’s scummy to insult people (I wish tells were that easy). In post #167 you even say scum are more likely to make an appeal to emotion (once again, I sure wish this was true). But both of those are far more often just bad player tells. So this is just background, but I’m curious as to whether you actually believe being emotional and begging for pity really are general scum tells or if you were just trying to put pressure on Neil. If you were, why, since he was pretty much already self-destructing?

Don_Johnson

, you really like calling for bandwagons. You were the third vote on the original Vifam bandwagon, called for a bandwagon on Hiraki after claiming Hiraki was withholding content and then, just as the noose was tightening around Neil’s neck vote Vifam again with the charming sobriquet “let’s lynch Vifam”.

So just one question: Why are you so interested in lynching Vifam?

Oversoul

.

Oversoul, Oversoul, Oversoul. Jeepers, your post #186 in thread is bad. If I was judging just based on that post I would vote for you right now.

Your post #220 in thread is very nearly as bad. I mean these posts require no one to defend themselves and bring to light no new information. They take up space and serve to give the illusion that you’re contributing. You did take a little whack at Hiraki in your post #163 when he was voting for you but that was sort of a reflexive gesture.

In #186 while giving your “town” read for Don_johnson, Shotty, Hiraki and Neil (maybe only Hiraki and Neil in tandem) you do vaguely suggest that TheLonging has done two things you didn’t like, but you never go so far as to accuse him.

I like you so far today much better. Good on calling out the two quick Vifam votes. And you know, having looked at the totality of your posts I just don’t see scum because (and I don’t mean to be impolite here) there is no pattern I can discern in your posts. Usually when scum do what you did in #186 and #220 you can get a sense of what direction they would like town to go even as they avoid ever saying it.

So just one thing: You did call out TheLonging a little in #186, but you never actually accused him. What are your feelings on him now?

Thanks again, everybody. And special thanks to anyone who bothers to answer my questions. I’ll post again with a few things for Hiraki and Shotty and after that I promise my posts will not be so long.

[Coventry]

Hi, Hiraki.

You’ve posted a lot. I like that. I also like your early vote for Oversoul, your early belief that Neil was “bad town” and not scum, the way you jumped all over Oversoul’s really bad overview post and part of your response in your post in thread #202 to Neil’s plea for all of us to come together as a family to hunt out the vipers in our midst.

I’m sorry, but there were a couple other things that didn’t thrill me quite so much. I could go on and on about why but it boils down, basically, to two things.

One: You threw an easy second vote on Vifam rather early on day one. You snatched it back when Vifam reached L-2 because you thought that was too close for a (more or less) random bandwagon. In isolation I would have no problem with this. I might very well do it myself, as I can sometimes get a bit squeamish in a game this size at L-2.

But…

First thing on day two you’re back to voting Vifam again. And when you first tried to do so you posted that it will “prove Don_Johnson scum”. This could be random, of course, nothing more than happenstance, two acts taken for completely different reasons. Or it could be that you have some little suspicion of Vifam, nothing you can put your finger on really, but something enough to make him a sort of default suspect you move on from when better opportunities arise.

I suppose it could even be a sign of some soft cooperation, you throwing gentle votes at Vifam and Vifam jumping in (his post #146 in thread) to tell Shotty to “back up” because Hiraki “hasn’t done anything scummy” and voting Neil, the most popular wagon, as soon as critical attention turned toward you.

Anyway, if you could explain your voting pattern in regard to Vifam I would be very appreciative.

Two: Your behavior toward Neil. I actually beamed when you identified him, very early on, as a bad townie. It seemed a strong and confident read. But in post 123 you vote for Neil, after listing a series of reasons that to my mind seem to prove him as exactly that, a bad townie. Now, that could be a difference in reads. But then you taunt Neil, daring him to defend himself in post #130 and putting pressure on him to make a case in #133 before this quote in post #156, responding to a question about your evolving opinion of Neil: “I did, before analyzing his posts deeply. Then I realized this had to be scum.”

There’s a bit more, including post #162: “Neil's new post is lmffo. I don't really want to say where, because it's pretty obv. he's scum now.” And post #166: “There is no town reason to withhold content”, but you seemed absolutely set on NON (No One but Neil).

So could you point to the moment when you were unable to look in any other direction? If the moment had come after Neil’s post #161 (where he did make the unfortunate statement: “I did some ISO's and read over the game again, but I've not posted any of my reads or cases. For a reason.” I could have understood it more, but it seems to have come much earlier.

It’s probably not a big thing, and certainly Neil seems to have had no reads, no cases, and no reasons. But if it’s no bother I would like you to explain a little more how you went from reading Neil as “bad town” to “pretty obv. he’s scum now.” when he was bumbling, confrontational and strangely passive aggressive from beginning to end.

Anyway, thank you for your time and any answers you might give.

[Coventry]

Drmyshottyizsik, I hate to be so blunt, and if I’m wrong you have my sincerest apologies, but everything about your behavior to this point just screams scum.

Your accusation of Hikari in post in thread #135 contains reasons untrue, generic and obsolete. You even end it by throwing out a very special message to TheLonging and Don_Johnson saying that “Hiraki/Niel Scum team is a go.”.

The slap fight between you and Hiraki that follows through the 130s and 140s eventually opens a new and really dumb avenue of (sort of) attack with “I caught you using a word!”. And this continues, on and off, until post 199, when the most curious thing happens.

Sigh... Ok Hiraki I will accept that but I was more wanting you to explain where you came up with that... bussing is a lot different that what people were saying you maybe doing. Sorry I got so caught up on that. Now let's do some scum hunting!

But this was your high point. I’m just going to post my notes on your post after 199 to the end of day one:

Post 206: Suddenly Shotty says “Neil you are the most useless player here.” after Neil went after Hiraki (badly but no worse and less voluminously than Shotty did). Huh?
Post 208, 210 and 212 and 214---engages in a very silly dispute with Neil which SHOTTY provoked—name drops someone outside game—in general does nothing that is in any way helpful, unless he’s trying to push poor cranky Neil into another meltdown.
Post 218: Asks Hiraki why he is trying to “be over dominate”.—pitty-pat.
Post 224: Tells Hiraki he is being “condescending and intimidating”—double pitty-pat
Post 227: Then after all this, when Hiraki says he is sure Neil will “flip scum” in post 226 Shotty VOTES NEIL! Putting him at L-1 with no independent reason given! Just to be “productive”!

Here is Shotty’s post number 227:

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
Fine I'll be productive

unvote
vote Neil

So, Shotty, here are my questions to you:

When you went on about bussing had you just missed that Hiraki had declared Neil scum, voted him and was increasingly tunneling on him, or was there some other thought process at play?

What was it about Sigma's repeating Hiraki's answer that finally ended your quest so thoroughly that by the end of the post you wanted to "let's go scumhunting!"?

Why the suddenly very high level of antagonism toward Neil immediately after this, in defense of Hiraki, even though you'd been picking at Hiraki the whole thread?

Why, when you'd just told Hiraki that he was being over-dominating, condescending and intimidating did you vote the bandwagon he'd been pursuing so strongly immediately after Hiraki tells you he doesn't want to argue with you because he's sure Neil will flip scum. Were you so thoroughly dominated and intimidated that you felt the need to follow Hiraki's lead, even though you'd been barking at him throughout the day, even though you were putting Neil at L-1, even though you offered no additional reasoning of your own?

Why are you voting Vifam along with Hiraki as soon as the sun rises on day two? And why was Vifam who you should have been voting for all along?

Once again, if I have misjudged you I am sorry, and I will certainly consider your future behavior and your answers to the above questions, if you care to answer them, as we continue to move forward. But for now I am sorry, I really must...

VOTE: Drmyshottyizsik

[Hiraki]

Unvote, Vote: Vifam

nice. lets see if we can waste an entire page discussing avatars.

What would you like to discuss?


Neil getting an avatar would actually increase the chances of a town win in this game.

Wasting time discussing anything not pertinent to the game at hand is advantagous to the scum. It decreases the amount of scumhunting significantly.

FoS: Vifam

The avatar crap between Neil and Jakesh seems like scumbuddy talk trying to pass time without actually going anywhere.

Don_John and Vifam are scumbuds.

It can be easily found right around...

let's lynch vifam.

unvote, vote: vifam

There.

That looks good.

[Hiraki]

EWBOP:

But if it’s no bother I would like you to explain a little more how you went from reading Neil as “bad town” to “pretty obv. he’s scum now.”

Because he was inconsistent and he was being blatantly anti-town.

To the point where he was calling himself the only scumhunter, however he was doing absolutely no scumhunting. Even if he did do any, which I do not care to check for, it was probably shitty at best. He was just butthurt because he thought he was the best. Nothing major.

[Coventry]

Hi Hiraki.

So you became convinced Neil was scum because I suppose you're saying the...volume of his incompetence and bad behavior.

I mean the argument could be made pretty convincingly that almost no one on the train did much in the way of scumhunting on day one. I suppose that isn't so unusual for day one, depending on the personalities. So was it just the volume of Neil's uselessness or did you just become so tired of his "butthurt" that you were anxious for him to leave the train regardless of his affiliation?

I'm sorry to come back to this but you moved very quickly from seeming very certain Neil was bad town to very certain he was scum. And once you'd decided he was scum you seemed quite terminally focused on him throughout the rest of the day.

As certain as you now seem about Vifam and Don_Johnson, based on Don_Johnson jumping in to make the appearance of starting a last minute wagon on Vifam being evidence that they are in evil league together.

So in general do you equate villainy with poor, obvious and inconsistent play? I mean it surely is true sometimes, but I think good players have as much chance of being scum as bad ones. Neil was an extremely poor player first and foremost. Could he have been scum? Certainly. Was he? No. But he was condemned for being cranky, thin-skinned and unable to communicate his thoughts clearly.

Jumping in at L-1 to announce that you wanted to start a wagon on your partner would be very poor play. Does very poor play take place? Oh, you bet. But had Don_Johnson tried the same gambit twice before, once on you? Yes. So in essence you're once again equating bad play with incompetence. Surely you could be right, but you're doing the same thing twice in a row, both times with a great deal of certainty...and you were just wrong the first time.

Now if you had voted Don_Johnson there may have been a whisker more credibility to your argument, as you would have at least been attacking the player who executed the poor game play. After all, as scum Don_Johnson may have jumped in any direction for his last minute ploy. He would know Neil was innocent so he could pick any other innocent player. Or he could pick his partner, and wrap them both up in an easy to open package on day two. But you pick to vote the

partner

.

I just find myself curious about that. Anyway, thank you for your answers.

Have you given any thought to the selection of SigmaEXE003 as the first victim of the villains? I was just wondering.

[Tragedy]

Votecount 1.4

TheLonging [0] -
yourfriendlynoggin [0] -
drmyshottyizsik [1] - Coventry
Oversoul [0] -
Hiraki [0] -
don_johnson [0] -
andrew94 [0] -

Vifam [2] - drmyshottyizsik, Hiraki

(L-3)
Coventry [0] -

Not Voting

: TheLonging, yourfriendlynoggin, Oversoul, don_johnson, andrew94

Required 5 to Lynch, 4 to No Lynch.
Deadline is at July 3rd, 3 PM.

yourfriendlynoggin/andrew94/don_johnson are V/LA

[Coventry]

EBWOP:

That should be "equating bad play with villainy".

Really, it would be quite difficult to argue with someone equating bad play with incompetence.

[Oversoul]

Oversoul

.

Oversoul, Oversoul, Oversoul. Jeepers, your post #186 in thread is bad. If I was judging just based on that post I would vote for you right now.

Your post #220 in thread is very nearly as bad. I mean these posts require no one to defend themselves and bring to light no new information. They take up space and serve to give the illusion that you’re contributing. You did take a little whack at Hiraki in your post #163 when he was voting for you but that was sort of a reflexive gesture.

In #186 while giving your “town” read for Don_johnson, Shotty, Hiraki and Neil (maybe only Hiraki and Neil in tandem) you do vaguely suggest that TheLonging has done two things you didn’t like, but you never go so far as to accuse him.

I like you so far today much better. Good on calling out the two quick Vifam votes. And you know, having looked at the totality of your posts I just don’t see scum because (and I don’t mean to be impolite here) there is no pattern I can discern in your posts. Usually when scum do what you did in #186 and #220 you can get a sense of what direction they would like town to go even as they avoid ever saying it.

So just one thing: You did call out TheLonging a little in #186, but you never actually accused him. What are your feelings on him now?

TheLonging has said he has solid reads on people and doesn't post them. He also says that he will reply to Neil later and yet he hasn't been scene since then. I find that a little suspicious as he just lets his vote ride on him and then now has the convenience of not addressing Neil.

If one has a "solid" reads, I would like to see who they are on and why they are solid. Also, I find it ironic how Longing's last post was a remark to reply to Neil and then he is absent for Neil's self-hammer.

Anyway, I am glad you replaced into this game, Coventry. Hopefully you will be the spark to inspire activity.

[Coventry]

Thank you very much for your answer, Oversoul. Would you happen to have any thoughts on why Sigma was the first person the bad guys went after?

[don_johnson]

Vifam hate is mostly gut. I did not want neil lynched and I think his wagon is uber scummy and I am upset he self hammered. I think hiraki should go Next. But I was also wary of sigma. This game needs scum to play fast and hard and thats exactly what hiraki has done.

[Hiraki]

I mean the argument could be made pretty convincingly that almost no one on the train did much in the way of scumhunting on day one. I suppose that isn't so unusual for day one, depending on the personalities. So was it just the volume of Neil's uselessness or did you just become so tired of his "butthurt" that you were anxious for him to leave the train regardless of his affiliation?

I didn't care about the others.

It was a combination of both. The second coming later in the game when he gave up.

I'm sorry to come back to this but you moved very quickly from seeming very certain Neil was bad town to very certain he was scum. And once you'd decided he was scum you seemed quite terminally focused on him throughout the rest of the day.

Because I assumed that he was going for everyone assuming or trying to think that he was bad town, rather than scum.

As certain as you now seem about Vifam and Don_Johnson, based on Don_Johnson jumping in to make the appearance of starting a last minute wagon on Vifam being evidence that they are in evil league together.

That is true.

Not only that, but Vifam was numero dos.

Once Vifam flips scum, Don_Johnson will flip scum too.

You make some good points that bad play doesn't equate to scum all the time, but that's the point of the game. Scum usually make bad play, and we're out to get them. If we aren't looking for bad play=scum, then what are we looking for?

I think hiraki should go Next.

bwahahahahahahahaha.

This game needs scum to play fast and hard and thats exactly what hiraki has done.

That's your case?

I guess it goes inline with some Coventry favoring.

[don_johnson]

Read my sig. I dont have a winning recors as scum from bad play. Argument fail. Why do you think vifam is scum?

[Hiraki]

I've already stated that, and that might be one of the most shittiest pieces of logic I have ever looked at.

[Coventry]

Don Johnson, thank you very much for your answer. I have to admit that I distrust gut feelings. I’ll go farther and say that when I have a bad feeling about someone but no real reason for that feeling I will usually look to see if there is one, but I certainly would never cast a vote based on that solely.

Now in the case of Vifam that would be very difficult to do since he has been not so present. Too many of our fellow passengers have slipped off to the sleeping car for far too long and that puts us in danger of focusing our attention on people simply because they have posted and therefore given us something to react to.

I also rather distrust stacking lynches, which is something you and Hiraki have both danced around the edges of. That said, I do have some doubts about Hiraki and until Sigma’s post in thread #215 I had some doubts about him as well. (If you’re reading this from the great beyond, Sigma, that was a kind and generous gesture you made toward Neil, futile as it turned out to be).

Given your doubts about Sigma, however, what have you gleaned from his subsequent death and the revelation of his status? Anything? I must admit I’m a bit puzzled that no one has seemed interested in any possible implications of Sigma being the first target of the scum.

[Coventry]

Once Vifam flips scum, Don_Johnson will flip scum too.

You make some good points that bad play doesn't equate to scum all the time, but that's the point of the game. Scum usually make bad play, and we're out to get them. If we aren't looking for bad play=scum, then what are we looking for?

Hi, Hiraki. Me again.

So what if you manage to lynch Vifam and he, like Neil, flips passenger instead of scum? Would you still pursue Don_Johnson? I mean you logically could, because it was Don_Johnson’s last minute attempt to start a wagon on Vifam that set you marching down this path.

So Vifam wasn’t a partner, you could say, Don_Johnson’s actions were still a sure scumtell.

If Don_Johnson committed the mistake you are acting on why aren’t you trying to lynch Don_Johnson?

Because you see, if you lynched Don_Johnson and he was shown to be a scum you would have sufficient reason to at least engage Vifam. On the other hand, if Don_Johnson was just another flipping passenger you could lay this entire line of suspicion to rest because Vifam was only the target of the comment.

And yet you (and seemingly Shotty) have decided to strike out in the other direction. Which leaves open the possibility of arguing for the back-to-back lynchings of two quite possibly innocent men.

That just doesn’t pass a sniff test, Hiraki. So can you explain why you would want to vote for Vifam first, when the move at the end of day one was made by Don_Johnson. Because, assuming you are correct and Don_Johnson’s strategem, Don_Johnson could be guilty without Vifam being guilty, but Vifam can’t be guilty without Don_Johnson being guilty.

That just really bothers me. A lot.

As for the second part of your message that I quoted above.

I’ll take a big dumb unforced error as quick as the next person but I want to make sure it’s a scum error first.

I look for patterns in behavior, which as noted above I believe I’ve seen in Shotty’s play. I also look for more subtle errors, such as someone getting a little bit greedy and deciding they can lynch two people for the price of one if they stack the lynches in the right order.

Anyway I would just really like your logic behind wanting to lynch Vifam first for Don_Johnson's post.

Thanks again.

[Hiraki]

If Vifam flips scum, Don_Johnson is scum.

If Vifam flips town, I'll need to look somewhere else.

Does that make it easier?

[Hiraki]

It doesn't work the other way around, and Vifam is already scummy like I have already noted.

[drmyshottyizsik]

When you went on about bussing had you just missed that Hiraki had declared Neil scum, voted him and was increasingly tunneling on him, or was there some other thought process at play?

Yes I missed that

What was it about Sigma's repeating Hiraki's answer that finally ended your quest so thoroughly that by the end of the post you wanted to "let's go scumhunting!"?

I realized I had missed it

Why the suddenly very high level of antagonism toward Neil immediately after this, in defense of Hiraki, even though you'd been picking at Hiraki the whole thread?

It's called pressure

Why, when you'd just told Hiraki that he was being over-dominating, condescending and intimidating did you vote the bandwagon he'd been pursuing so strongly immediately after Hiraki tells you he doesn't want to argue with you because he's sure Neil will flip scum. Were you so thoroughly dominated and intimidated that you felt the need to follow Hiraki's lead, even though you'd been barking at him throughout the day, even though you were putting Neil at L-1, even though you offered no additional reasoning of your own?

Because Hiraki, since he was being so dominate, seemed like that kind of guy who would bus his scum buddy, and bus him hard. So by voting for Neil, I was able to wait for a lynch and then see what happened. Right now Hiraki is confirmed town in my book.

Why are you voting Vifam along with Hiraki as soon as the sun rises on day two? And why was Vifam who you should have been voting for all along?

Because Neil nor Hiraki are scum.

Once again, if I have misjudged you I am sorry, and I will certainly consider your future behavior and your answers to the above questions, if you care to answer them, as we continue to move forward. But for now I am sorry, I really must...

Bold are mine.