Mini 907: Tech Tree Mafia (End Game)

[Chaco]

Vote: Neto

.

Tech Victory isn't cool, and pulling a mass tech victory would make this game nothing more than pick off the sitting ducks. Also, even if we, as a whole, decide against it. I still suspect some will go for it.

[Juls]

Vote: Chaco

Too

golly gee whiz

for my book.

[malthusis]

Vote Tarhalindur

Obv scum.

So, at first I was gonna be like "Hey, everyone, instead of lynching and killing, let's all go for a Technology Victory", but then Tar told me that'd be a terrible idea. So, that said, any ideas for gamebreakery given the new settings?

If not, I'm obviously going for a vig .

I thought about this, but realized that scum can kill one every night other than night 1, so it'd turn out to be, if a normal 9v3 (obviously that's a huge assumption):
After Night.. Town's Choice.. Mafia's Choice
0 Boost - BP
1 9v3 Grant Bonus - Vengeful
2 8v3 Masonify - Vengeance
3 7v3 Tech Victory - Vigilante
4 6v3 Timer 1 - Kill Townie
5 2v3 Timer 2 - Mafia wins

The only problem is that Mafia may go for vig as well, get an extra kill. Or a townie who gets vengeful might shoot and kill someone else. Also, anyone who goes for the tech victory might die and because town isn't really going for a win other than tech victory, anyone killed loses. Tech victory is anti-town, so let's not go down that road.

The thing we most have to look out for as town is getting vote screwed. Double vote and rig election could be really powerful for scum as it may end a lynch very unexpectedly. As a result, we have to be careful at any mylo/lylo situation.

Bulletproof will be a handy tool to have for pretty much all town. I think it might be a good idea to have everyone grab that either tonight, last night or perhaps night 2. It "wastes" a night of inventing/actions, but it also neutralizes several scum kills (scum then has to kill someone twice to take them out). Other than BP, I think diversifying will be good. But what do you guys think? Should everyone get BP tonight if they haven't already?

The start of this post is utter rubbish! This post makes me have a good reason to suspect him as scum . If you guys have looked at the tech tree, you 'll notice a very strong ability at the end of it (level 4):Recruit. This a HUGE killer in the end game, and the two requirements for it are Vengence and Masonify. If we followed zoraster's plans even part way, this would give scum the perfect cover as they could easily get masonizer and recruit (Hell, if I was scum, why would I kill someone when I can just put them in my faction?) My starting vote is definitly going

Vote zoraster

[zoraster]

Are you sure you understand the point of that post malth? I was showing why having everyone go for Tech Win would allow Mafia to win. It wasn't a "plan," in fact it was proof of why the plan wouldn't work.

[Netopalis]

Chaco, my point isn't to go for tech victory, my point is to nullify the Mafia's kill. If everyone is unnightkillable, we can still lynch.

[Pomegranate]

Well, since Tar clarified that if everyone went for Tech Win it wouldn't work, and I doubt everyone would have gone for it anyway.

Betting BP is good for everyone, but if Mafia have Boost it might not help any.

[MafiaSSK]

Actually....

Unvote, vote: MafiaSSK

Not-so-random. A policy vote is better than a random vote.

You do realize I like to play different in every game, right?

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* Based on the one game I've played with you, the vote stands.

[UncertainKitten]

Nyeh, actually, SSK can be very helpful when you don't attack him on the outset for effectively no reason. Give the kid a break. After his performance in TRADTiMM I've learned not to underestimate him.

You know,

since he was the ONLY TOWNIE TO CATCH SCUM in that game.

Oh, dear, I really must stop doing that when I'm obviously not Beatrice .

[zoraster]

Well, since Tar clarified that if everyone went for Tech Win it wouldn't work, and I doubt everyone would have gone for it anyway.

Betting BP is good for everyone, but if Mafia have Boost it might not help any.

If they spent an invent on boost, then use boost (an active ability) while we merely get bulletproof (a passive ability that is automatically used) then we come out ahead by a turn because they're forced to use a low level ability rather than invent that turn and any future turns they want a kill to go through.

[zoraster]

EBWOP: Way more than a turn actually, as at least one mafia member will have to use boost every single turn rather than inventing and moving up the chain. A great result for the town.

[Pomegranate]

Well, since Tar clarified that if everyone went for Tech Win it wouldn't work, and I doubt everyone would have gone for it anyway.

Betting BP is good for everyone, but if Mafia have Boost it might not help any.

If they spent an invent on boost, then use boost (an active ability) while we merely get bulletproof (a passive ability that is automatically used) then we come out ahead by a turn because they're forced to use a low level ability rather than invent that turn and any future turns they want a kill to go through.

I didn't see it like that. Good thinking.

[Sajin]

The bulletproof skill made a ton of sense to me too. Interrupting kills and getting extra lynches makes a ton of sense to me.

Everyone should note that the ability does not go into effect until the next morning, you cannot invent bulletproof and be protected the same day.

Although I did note the tier 2 ability that makes abilities unblockable. I assume that would apply to kills as well. And its PASSIVE.

However, why are you suggesting everyone get it Zoraster? IMO everyone should go down whatever tree/aim for whatever high level ability they selected rather then get multiple level 1 abilities. Do you disagree?

[zoraster]

The bulletproof skill made a ton of sense to me too. Interrupting kills and getting extra lynches makes a ton of sense to me.

Everyone should note that the ability does not go into effect until the next morning, you cannot invent bulletproof and be protected the same day.

Although I did note the tier 2 ability that makes abilities unblockable. I assume that would apply to kills as well. And its PASSIVE.

However, why are you suggesting everyone get it Zoraster? IMO everyone should go down whatever tree/aim for whatever high level ability they selected rather then get multiple level 1 abilities. Do you disagree?

Because it's a level 1 ability that will take exactly one night worth of invention to get. It's FAR more effective if EVERYONE in the town does this than if only the people who don't want to die do it. If we say "just do what you want" then mafia only have to find the people who didn't do it to kill at night.

On the other hand, if everyone does it, it forces the mafia to either (1) shoot each person two nights in a row or (2) have someone who's boosting their mafia partner's kill every single night, thus not advancing up the tech tree.

Yes, for many people getting BP doesn't advance their own tech tree development. But the trade-off is definitely worth it as it'll actually increase the number of inventions town will get by increasing the number of town alive. This should be a town-wide policy.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, Unblockable has errata now. I'd recommend everybody who already went for BP go towards Shroud - it's probably more important to eliminate the Mafia's kill than to gain kills ourselves.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, due to an excruciatingly long drive, I'll be on V/LA from midnight to 8 PM tomorrow.

[Chaco]

Chaco, my point isn't to go for tech victory, my point is to nullify the Mafia's kill. If everyone is unnightkillable, we can still lynch.

I understand, I was addressing the general topic.

You were just my not so random vote, that I was hoping you'd get the joke too.

[Juls]

Crazy question? Why are we openly talking about our tech trees?

[zoraster]

Crazy question? Why are we openly talking about our tech trees?

Because it's likely to help the town. We don't have to discuss what else we're doing yet, but whether or not to get BP (or if it's on your way, NK Immunity instead) is an important point that can help town.

[Cobalt]

BP as a first step is a good idea. Even if you weren't planning on it, it's only 1 tech and it might save your life.

[Pomegranate]

Crazy question? Why are we openly talking about our tech trees?

Because it's likely to help the town. We don't have to discuss what else we're doing yet, but whether or not to get BP (or if it's on your way, NK Immunity instead) is an important point that can help town.

I agree. We all get BP, but don't say what else.

[Chaco]

I don't think we should all get BP, since it has been pointed out that Boost will still make the kill go through. Divide and Conquer.

[zoraster]

I don't think we should all get BP, since it has been pointed out that Boost will still make the kill go through. Divide and Conquer.

And as has been pointed out, that means whatever mafia uses boost won't be able to invent. So that's basically taking one mafia power role out for the entire game. Furthermore, toward the end of the game if it were to get down to just him, we're in a great spot as he can't boost himself and he'll have no powers to speak of, while we'll be fully charged. If we lynch the booster, then the mafia then have to invent boost again before their kill will go through (or double kill, which has a similar effect).

Divide and Conquer usually refers to dividing the ENEMY, not allies. And that may well be what you're trying to do here by preventing a sound town strategy. Given that it's time we get back to scum hunting:

Vote: Chaco

[Chaco]

I don't think we should all get BP, since it has been pointed out that Boost will still make the kill go through. Divide and Conquer.

And as has been pointed out, that means whatever mafia uses boost won't be able to invent. So that's basically taking one mafia power role out for the entire game. Furthermore, toward the end of the game if it were to get down to just him, we're in a great spot as he can't boost himself and he'll have no powers to speak of, while we'll be fully charged. If we lynch the booster, then the mafia then have to invent boost again before their kill will go through (or double kill, which has a similar effect).

Divide and Conquer usually refers to dividing the ENEMY, not allies. And that may well be what you're trying to do here by preventing a sound town strategy. Given that it's time we get back to scum hunting:

Vote: Chaco

No, it's not like taking out a mafia power role for the entire game. Why would you even think that? You act as if BPing everyone is this godly strategy, when in fact it SEVERELY limits town. Which could very well be what you want, but I'm not understanding your turn away from the truth with Boost.

So, say scum go with all BP too, then do exactly what town is doing. What will happen then? Please explain to me how this flawless plan works, since it is quite evident it has many flaws. And I agree with Juls, plotting this out in thread is dumb. After reading through this stuff, all going BP and stemming the straight way is about the dumbest thing we can do.

This strategy is not sound, and quite frankly it sucks. It's not as impenetrable as you think. I can point out NUMEROUS flaws in it, and I'm sure others can as well.

[UncertainKitten]

I can think of a few, but it's a decent start.

This has probably already been clarified but

Tar!: Can factional and active abilities both be used in the same night? Like, suppose I had a factional kill. If I used that, could I also use any active abilities I have?

Yes. (The basic role PM formatting in the first post should answer this adequately). - Tar