Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Zachrulez]

So why not attack Vi directly Zach, instead of attacking my lack of attack?

Most people are scummier than Vi. Everyone but you. Maybe Benmage.

Was attacking your mentality toward Vi more than anything else. I find it dangerous to think that way.

What makes me town? I don't think I've ever asked you.

Just to steal page 100.

[jammer]

@Gieff, the lack of a bigger case was loss of a startup and being lazy afterwards.
I am applying the same reasoning for spyrex and DDD. But I am already getting where this is going, you need proof, then you want me to post why spyrex is town and DDD is not in comparison.

@Vi, yes I want to lynch DDD, his play in general do not strike me as town(following any easy wagon, careless, info>analysis. And certain bits as scum like the KMD speedup vote, obvious lurking with getting more active (in the past) if he gets suspected.

And honestly I do not got a alternative ready. As I said before SF AtE makes me believe he is town. Alex gives me mixed feelings. Benmage is putting me as main suspect without putting points forward. And many other got their pros and bads.

[GIEFF]

@Gieff, the lack of a bigger case was loss of a startup and being lazy afterwards.
I am applying the same reasoning for spyrex and DDD. But I am already getting where this is going, you need proof, then you want me to post why spyrex is town and DDD is not in comparison.

No. You have already explained why you think Spyrex is town. Yet you have not shown why you are not applying these same towntells to DDD.


No, the lack of a bigger case was you pretending to have these extra reasons, but when pressed, revealing you did not.

[GIEFF]

Was attacking your mentality toward Vi more than anything else. I find it dangerous to think that way.

What makes me town? I don't think I've ever asked you.

I forget exactly. There was a specific thing you did in a specific post I think on day 2 that convinced me.


I also think your suspicion of me throughout the thread has been genuine, unlike that of so many others, which waxes and wanes with how the wind blows, and how viable a GIEFF-lynch appears to be.

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Battle Mage (3): alexhans, Kmd4390, Debonair Danny DiPietro
Debonair Danny DiPietro (3): Battle Mage, SpyreX, jammer
SensFan (1): Benmage
SpyreX (1): Zachrulez
Benmage (1): SensFan

Not Voting: GIEFF, Vi

6 to lynch

[Vi]

I am leaning that way. Your latest posting antics give me the vibe you are daring us to do something about your play. (As you even admit that abandoning the sens wagon looks really bad.)

If I know it will look bad, why not go ahead and acknowledge it?
It's your choice as to whether it's scummy in the scheme of things, but I'm showing that I'm not trying to pull a fast one.

[GIEFF]

Vi, we should probably vote, it looks bad not to. Who should we bandwagon? If we both do it together, we can get either DDD or BM to L-1. Your call.

[Kmd4390]

Catching up now. Sorry I was gone so long. I want to say it won't happen again, but I can't promise much starting on Monday night. I work Monday night (haven't checked, but probably something like 10PM-6AM) and then leave Tuesday night for a 2 day trip. The weekend after that, I leave for a 2 week trip with possible laptop access on some nights. But yeah, catching up now.

[Kmd4390]

I don't know. Sens is probably #1 target still. Close with BM. Hard to say. KMD was not my preferred lynch target when I voted him. These are bad questions to ask me unless you think I'm scum, Zach.

^This post reminds me so much of whatever number open game it was that Nameless modded where GIEFF was town that it's not even funny.

He went from no votes to L-1 in two and a half hours. You're questioning the FIRST person on the wagon instead of those who ran him up to L-1 so quickly? Because I didn't unvote as soon as KMD hit L-2? I don't understand your suspicion.

And yes, these questions do absolutely no good unless you think I may be scum.

A couple of really good points against Zach here.

Yes, I am curious about the fact that you didn't pull your vote on KMD until it looked reasonably certain that no one else was going to tack votes on him. Yes I do find it a bit suspicious.

Unvote, Vote Zachrulez

(Removing this because I'm still behind)

Have you EVER made a case and ended it with "I'm not going to vote because there is a chance that this case is strong enough to lead to a large bandwagon in a matter of hours"? I sure as hell haven't. You are using the absolutely terrible "OMG YOU STARTED A BANDWAGON" argument against GIEFF here.

And yes, these questions do absolutely no good unless you think I may be scum.

I thought the whole purpose of the game was to try and determine whether you are scum or not? Do you consider yourself confirmed town?

BM

Maybe his role is confirmable.

---------------

I have to go again...

I'm at the top of Page 89 when I get back.

Unvote til I catch up

[jammer]

No. You have already explained why you think Spyrex is town. Yet you have not shown why you are not applying these same towntells to DDD.

No, the lack of a bigger case was you pretending to have these extra reasons, but when pressed, revealing you did not.

1) If you can not comprehend the difference between DDD and spyrex, ...

Meh. Ok, I will do a little try to explain. As you will not stop going on and on about it. Do these quotes make anything clear? I do not see a point in this sidetracking, btw.

Quick and dirty view of the camn/GIEFF kerfuffle. I agree that camn really hasn't been doing any scumhunting. However, both camn and kmd have suggested that's consistent with her town meta so while it bothers me I'm not convinced a strong tell. Furthermore, GIEFF keeps trying to drive home the idea that defensiveness is a scumtell and I completely disagree with that idea. Players of either alignment get defensive when attacked; granted they don't usually get as emotional as camn did but I'd bank on that being personality more than alignment.

I guess I haven't addressed it directly. Allow me to do so now:

1.) I have not gotten the "I AM SOO TOWN GUYS" feel from camn at all.
--- If this is a crux, how does Mastin measure up?

2.) The rest of it is up to camn to tear apart but its paper-thin.

Anyways, I think I side with Sens/BM on this latest brouhaha. I see no benefit to scum to ask for a claim at that point. Since I'm a firm believer in scum generally playing conservatively even forgetful scum aren't going to ask for a claim in that situation. So I'm inclined to believe his crappy trap explanation.

1.) Pretty sure BM is town. This shouldn't be a surprise. The pro/con scum motivation for pulling the "great trap" ESPECIALLY in a mountainous setup makes me go woah.

2) I did not have a bigger case, I wanted to get one to elaborate. But I did not couse I am extremely lazy, so that makes the points invalid? It makes me scummy to not make a full case?

Vi, we should probably vote, it looks bad not to. Who should we bandwagon? If we both do it together, we can get either DDD or BM to L-1. Your call.

So, basically camn gave her vote to benmage. And now is gieff giving the vote to Vi. Are you that certain Vi is town?

[GIEFF]

I don't know. Sens is probably #1 target still. Close with BM. Hard to say. KMD was not my preferred lynch target when I voted him. These are bad questions to ask me unless you think I'm scum, Zach.

^This post reminds me so much of whatever number open game it was that Nameless modded where GIEFF was town that it's not even funny.

I read my iso in that game:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... osts=10210

What are you referring to that this quote reminds you of?


------

jammer, I don't know what those quotes from Spy and DDD are meant to illustrate. Can you explain? If anything, it looks like you are saying their play has been similar, but this doesn't explain why you are focusing so much more on DDD than on Spyrex.

2) I did not have a bigger case, I wanted to get one to elaborate.

You led us to believe you had a bigger case when you said:

Firstly I already said I was adding the lurking and the easy wagoning overall as extra tells. Makes it a higher count of tells.

Does anyone else think this is wildly scummy? Claiming to have additional tells when there really are none to make your case appear stronger than it really is?

[jammer]

jammer, I don't know what those quotes from Spy and DDD are meant to illustrate. Can you explain? If anything, it looks like you are saying their play has been similar, but this doesn't explain why you are focusing so much more on DDD than on Spyrex.

For once spyrex uses less chars for the same. As second I feel DDD is more like spinning around the point.

You led us to believe you had a bigger case when you said:

Firstly I already said I was adding the lurking and the easy wagoning overall as extra tells. Makes it a higher count of tells.

Does anyone else think this is wildly scummy? Claiming to have additional tells when there really are none to make your case appear stronger than it really is?

So the easy wagoning and lurking are complete blatent lies about DDDs play?
If not, I miss your point completely.

[GIEFF]

So the easy wagoning and lurking are complete blatent lies about DDDs play?
If not, I miss your point completely.

No.

You claimed that the easy wagoning and lurking were "extra" tells, in addition to some other, unnamed tells.

I asked you what these other tells were, and you admitted there were none.

This is scummy, because you were trying to represent your case on DDD as having more points than it actually did.


Is my point really this difficult to understand?

[jammer]

*facepalm*

You started about the KMD votes, I seemed to be putting my focus there. And you question me why I ignore spyrex. And I answered becouse I got ¨extra¨ tells (besides the KMD-vote).

[GIEFF]

I am having an extremely difficult time communicating with you, jammer

Here are my understanding of the situation. Let me know which of them is untrue.

1. In Post 2329, you were referring to "extra tells" on DDD.

2. When you called the lurking and easy-wagoning "extra tells" you were implying that DDD dropped other scumtells BESIDES these two.

3. When pressed, you admitted that lurking and easy-wagoning were the only two tells you had.

[Kmd4390]

I don't know. Sens is probably #1 target still. Close with BM. Hard to say. KMD was not my preferred lynch target when I voted him. These are bad questions to ask me unless you think I'm scum, Zach.

^This post reminds me so much of whatever number open game it was that Nameless modded where GIEFF was town that it's not even funny.

I read my iso in that game:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... osts=10210

What are you referring to that this quote reminds you of?

I think I remember you saying something about how I shouldn't be asking you questions unless I thought you were scum in that game. I can't find it on a quick skim. I'm referring to the last line of the post I quoted though. The one where you say this exact same thing to Zach.

Back to catching up now.

[Kmd4390]

I'm back, for those who've dared to call me a lurker, I hope you don't dare skim this

---------------------------------------

@KMD

Right, because not once have I gone after Alex, Mastin, BM, Zach, Black, or Jammer, right? I'm just the bully at the playground picking on you and only you.

Actually. You haven't gone after me with anything other than saying I'm scum.

I've called you scum, voted you, and been willing to lynch you. I define that as "going after" you. GIEFF was saying that I've gone after him, and only him. I disagreed and showed everyone who I have been willing to lynch. That includes you even if you aren't at the top of my list anymore (BM and Zach are both above you).

alexhans - Scum. That was my gut read on him and my VC analysis only furthers my suspicion on Alex.

What do you exactly make of the votecount analysys? Day 1: I think BM is scum. I vote BM. Day 2: I rather lynch BCC (with the added bonus that BM wants the other lurker lynched)

Is this supposed to clear you or something?

I think I'm missing something I asked Kmd and didn't think of the last time, but the lack of him is also disturbing. I'd definitely like to know if that vote analysis is a paper tiger - I remember his Battle Mage vote (which he based on said vote analysis) was justified by something else entirely when I asked.

Actually, my BM vote was based on his defeatist attitude after just 2 votes, not the analysis.

KMD - what are your thoughts on how quickly the wagon built up on you?

1-2 scum on it. Order of likliness:
DDD
Spy
Vi
Sens
GIEFF.

-------------

Need to start at Page 94 tomorrow.

[Vi]

@GIEFF: If I were prepared to vote for someone, I would be by now.

I think I'm missing something I asked Kmd and didn't think of the last time, but the lack of him is also disturbing. I'd definitely like to know if that vote analysis is a paper tiger - I remember his Battle Mage vote (which he based on said vote analysis) was justified by something else entirely when I asked.

Actually, my BM vote was based on his defeatist attitude after just 2 votes, not the analysis.

GIEFF, VC analysis is Vote Count Analysis. I did it earlier and it gave

BM

, Black, Alex, Zach, GIEFF, and Jammer as the most likely scum candidates if I remember correctly. My VC analysis ignores context and looks purely at the end of day vote counts. I've found it quite effective in the past.

Vote Battle Mage because conspiracies are fun. Actually,

my VC analysis had him as scum

and his reaction to 2 votes is just terrible.

, etc.

[Benmage]

Most people are scummier than Vi. Everyone but you. Maybe Benmage.

I like how i've become accepted town by so many. I feel satisfied and accomplished. Like i did something right. Maybe i did something terribly wrong it became right .

[Benmage]

Benmage is putting me as main suspect without putting points forward. And many other got their pros and bads.

I'll come to this when I have more time/not V/La if i forget, do remind me.

[GIEFF]

Maybe i did something terribly wrong it became right

That's about right.

[jammer]

I am having an extremely difficult time communicating with you, jammer

I am close to ignoring any responses at this matter, honestly.
Can someone else just say you are misrepping and get this over with, or that I am misrepping that you are misrepping. I feel tired with keeping responding to the petty questions of yours.

2. When you called the lurking and easy-wagoning "extra tells" you were implying that DDD dropped other scumtells BESIDES these two.

So please show me where DDD either doesn't make sense or is NOT concise. If you cannot, then you are applying both town-tells (concise, makes sense) AND scum-tells (hopping on the KMD wagon) inconsistently to Spyrex/DDD.

Ugh,
Firstly I already said I was adding the lurking and the easy wagoning overall as extra tells. Makes it a higher count of tells. I am not denying the L-1 vote on KMD from spyrex looks scummy.

You where comparing spyrex with DDD. So I said the tells besides the KMD vote that made me vote for DDD. The "extra tells".
The KMD-vote you took as argument for, DDD and spyrex are same, why vote DDD? It started there and somehow it changed into "extra tells" and you forget KMD-vote at all if it ever existed.

[GIEFF]

unvote

vote jammer

Plenty of room here, Vi. Plus, we get on the wagon early this way, and avoid suspicion.

[GIEFF]

You where comparing spyrex with DDD. So I said the tells besides the KMD vote that made me vote for DDD. The "extra tells".

No. If they were "extra tells" why did you include the KMD vote as one of them? The "easy wagon" was about KMD!

You are lying, lying, lying.

[jammer]

No. If they were "extra tells" why did you include the KMD vote as one of them? The "easy wagon" was about KMD!

The easy wagoning was about DDD overall play. Most of his votes are rather easy following of others.