Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[CrashTextDummie]

The only point in his favor is pushing for KOC lynch. However, that could easily be bussing since KOC was a sucky lurker.

I pushed for VMD before she even became KoC.

Let me complete the picture you're painting here:

I replaced into the game and immediately pushed for one of my buddies.
I maintained this push for 2 days until he was lynched.
I then pushed for my other buddy.
I maintained this push again for 2 days, only to back down once he was at L-1.
In the mean time, I voted to imprint two town players and avoided any and all town-wagons.

If you find this scenario likely, you ideas of how scum actually plays need a do-over.

[elvis_knits]

The picture I'm painting is more like:

CTD replaces into this game and he's scum with two lurker buddies and a bunch of townies confirming each other. He's thinking: FUCK!
CTD busses VMD/KOCbuddy for town cred.
CTD lurks for a while, making weak suggestions to lynch Pugbuddy, while letting the townies gang up on Ortolantownie.
CTD chastizes us for lynching Ortolan while we should have lynched pug, but says he needs a reread.
CTD abandons all lines of attack on his buddy pug now that other people want to lynch pug (cause bussing at this point is not going to work since people are connecting them anyway).



Anyway, I am rereading, up to page 16 now. I agree that there are some legit problems with SC. Wanting to lynch SB before DN is bad. Explicitly saying that if SB flips town, it clears DN... is bad. Wanting himself confirmed town if DN flips scum... is bad. (There's good in there too, but some of the stuff is a little iffy).

My point is that I am determined to think about this as objectively as I can. I am not trying to be blind to SC. I am going to give it a fresh look.

[farside22]

I'm pretty much of the opinion that if CTD isn't scum that SC is scum.

Someone want to relook at reck? I'm pretty much off today and wasn't planning on being on the computer much.

[CrashTextDummie]

Not sure how serious you are, Elvis (what with the smiley), but whatever.

CTD replaces into this game and he's scum with two lurker buddies and a bunch of townies confirming each other. He's thinking: FUCK!

Except at that point in time, no one was confirming each other (well, apart from you and SC, which didn't exactly work for most everyone else), Pug was close to getting imprinted and VMD was getting very little flak.

CTD lurks for a while, making weak suggestions to lynch Pugbuddy, while letting the townies gang up on Ortolantownie.

I still object to being called a lurker. I made every effort to provide content and analysis with the limited time I had, and even for the day where ortolan was lynched, I have a good post/RL-day ratio. I also disagree that my attack against Pug was weak.

CTD chastizes us for lynching Ortolan while we should have lynched pug, but says he needs a reread.

Wrong. I actually specifically stated that I

didn't

need a reread when I chastized you for lynching Ortolan over Pug.

CTD abandons all lines of attack on his buddy pug now that other people want to lynch pug (cause bussing at this point is not going to work since people are connecting them anyway).

We discussed this yesterday. I had my reasons for abandoning the Pug wagon (which is not = "abandoning all attack"). I also don't really get your logic here: I'm bussing all game but when a couple of people list us at the top of their scum-list, I get cold feet? No one was actually connecting me to Pug until

after

I didn't want to lynch him anymore (you even mentioned feeling better about me in case he came up scum). Pulindar and SC had me at the top of their list for seemingly no other reason than process of elimination.

[SerialClergyman]

I thought it was weird that buttonman was suddenly becoming the lynch. This thought occured to me despite me being happy to lynch him.

Look, no point getting all churned up about me being scum or CTD, if you're worried about it lynch me right now, I don't mind. Force of numbers will win this game.

[SerialClergyman]

Also -

I thought SC saying lynch me and if I flip scum lynch EK. Could be scum trying to get rid of a player that they know town.

lol

[elvis_knits]

Something else scummy about CTD is that he has been pretty stingy with imprints this game, and not really trying to get anybody else imprinted. And ever since we arrived at the realization that farside and elvis are town, he hasn't been imprinting anyone! AND he tried justify it later with "imprints are probably useless, so let's just forget about them."

I am categorically against imprinting anyone today.

2) I think we SHOULD imprint, at least the same players as last night. If we assume that a scum player got a NK last night, if matters little if we imprint the same players again. The scum might get another ability, but since they can only use 1, reward outweighs risk in my mind. If we assume that the three players imprinted were town, then of COURSE you'd want to imprint again.

The only reason I can see to not imprint again is if you think there was a scum player imprinted, and said scum player didn't get a NK, and you think the risk of that happening is greater than the potential reward of any other info.

Several things about this:
1. We don't lose any "potential reward" at all by not imprinting. We can always imprint tomorrow.
2. We can make a more informed imprint choice tomorrow.
3. I don't think it's a good idea to blindly imprint people just because they got imprinted before.
4. I think there's a good chance that imprinting scum repeatedly is bad for us, irregardless of whether they have a kill or not.

Take all of the above, couple it with the fact that I'm not confident we imprinted 3 town players, and you have more than enough reason not to imprint today.

Something about him saying the imprints were useless to the town. I mean how does anyone know who was telling the truth about their imprints but the person with the claim or mafia.

Imprints have been nothing but a bother for us. They haven't provided any useful information, they contributed in no small parts to the lynch of two townies and they in general acted as nothing more than a red herring, which

some

players happily pursued.

This is irregardless of whether I believe the imprinted people were telling the truth. I don't even know where this line of thinking is coming from. Either the imprinted people were telling the truth, in which case we gained nothing from the imprints, or an imprinted person was not telling the truth (hint: that would be YOU, farside), in which case we gained nothing from the imprints.

I'm willing to hear Elvis out. But I'd be surprised if she got anything substantial.

^^^^LOL

I mean, if you were scum and DN had died trying to get the whole team imprinted, and then everybody on the team had failed to get an imprint the entire game, and we were only imprinting a couple town players repeatedly... wouldn't YOU say imprints are useless and we should just forget about them??

From a town POV, I see NO HARM in continuing to try imprints even if they had been no help. As long as the people getting the imprints are town... there is NO RISK! And he wasn't saying he was suspicious of me or farside, but that the imprints were "too much of a bother."

LOL

[elvis_knits]

Interesting bit on Reckoner:

When he unimprinted VMD, she asked him why and they had a few posts exchange between them. It's on page 17. I'll let people read it for themselves.

Starts here:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=406

[elvis_knits]

Sorry I'm spamming the thread, but interesting things keep ocurring to me...

SC hammered DN sort of suddenly (which pissed everyone off). The effect was to prevent some people from being imprinted. The 3 front-runners were: Buttonmen, VMD, and MEssiah. We know that VMD was scum. If SC was scum, would he hammer DN like that and prevent all imprints (including the one on his buddy)? SC wasn't even voting to imprint any of the top three. He could have voted VMD (or all three or whatever), and VMD would have been one away from imprint. I seriously do not see why a scum SC would end the day early in a way that hurt the scum team - lynched scum and prevented atleast 1 scum imprint that would have likely gone through.

Also, I was bitching about MEssiah being close to imprint:

Messiah having 5 votes is mind boggling to me.

I don't find Messiah that town. I think he's been reactionary and not originating ideas, following other people's ideas and playing it safe. (I mentioned this a little, but haven't talked too much about it).

I'm also suspicious because people don't really seem to have much reason for putting Messiah to imprint. It's like "I have a town read of him," with very little explanation from everyone voting him.

@EK: I have an imprint vote on Messiah. Several pages ago I asserted that I had a town read on pretty much every one of his posts. He doesn't post as much as some, but the overall impression I get is that he values being succinct, and when he does post he clearly has a good head on his shoulders. He responds to what's important and asks the right questions/poses the right pointed statements and it doesn't take an hour to read through his posts like it does with some of us. <_< I like that and think he is a good choice.

^^Fluffy crap

Looking at the way the DN lynch went down is sort of funny:
Messiah and VMD and Pug were among the complainers when SC hammered (buttonmen was also there)

Day2

Post 479 buttonman votes SC
Post 480 Messiah votes SC
Post 483 VMD votes SC
Post 503 Pug says SC "quicklynched" DN (LOLOLOL)

This is pretty clearly a pissed off reaction to SC stopping them from getting imprints.

[farside22]

Actually that is a really good point in SC favor as far as hammering and who was close to be imprinted.

See this is why I believe EK town. Pro and con's all valid points.

I read the exchange from VMD to reck and it felt like VMD was trying to get Reck to vote for imprint her again.

[elvis_knits]

Actually that is a really good point in SC favor as far as hammering and who was close to be imprinted.

Well, if SC is scum, that means messiah is not. So that would have been that one of his buddies was close to imprint with two townies. Was the reward greater than the risk? Could he have voted to imprint VMD without voting the others? Maybe he coult have gone 1 and 1 (like maybe just buttonmen and vmd and not messiah).

But I think it speaks in SC's favor that he wasn't voting to imprint VMD (or any of the known scum, he was only voting to imprint me and himself I think). We know his actions stopped VMD from getting an imprint. I *think* that a scum would have ATLEAST let the day go on a little longer and hoped somebody else votes VMD. (nobody really suspected her at that point).

I also think that the reaction of known scum VMD and Pug to the SC hammer is very important. They were pissed. If this was some sort of elaborate gambit with the scum team, I do NOT think they would be trying to lynch SC. The only reason for SC to hammer DN like that is to get town cred. But it didn't happen. He got wagoned immediately and almost lynched, and vmd and pug scums were against SC. It literally makes no sense for the team to have one of the members hammer another member and then the others immediately buss the hammerer. That's just stupid.

I still want to look at d2 switch from SC to SB... didn't get time to read that yet although I don't think it's too long.

I read the exchange from VMD to reck and it felt like VMD was trying to get Reck to vote for imprint her again.

I think I read it like that too. This especially seemed like VMD was a bit angry that reck unvoted:

@Reckoner: You think I'm "obvtown", then back off of that read when Elvis starts questioning you about it and unimprint. Why?

"Dammit! Why did you let elvis scare you off?!"

Although... I'm not sure it's really clear cut. I think that it's *possible* that recko got caught imprinting his buddy for a BS reason and then his buddy engaged him in this conversation so that he could "explain" in a way designed to make him look better or distance? I dunno. This one seems like more of a longshot.

[SerialClergyman]

See this is why I believe EK town. Pro and con's all valid points.

Epic facepalm. Tempted to pull up 1000000 examples of you telling me what a shit dude I am for doing this all game.

[farside22]

See this is why I believe EK town. Pro and con's all valid points.

Epic facepalm. Tempted to pull up 1000000 examples of you telling me what a shit dude I am for doing this all game.

Oh hush I have been saying she was town at least since day 3.

[SerialClergyman]

Hey - we can all agree that at least one of me and elvis isn't scum now! Woot. Ten points for whoever suggested that we as scum imprinted each other and tried to clear each other.

I think this analysis is pretty unnecessary. My scummiest actions have been

a) pairing DN with Starbuck so strongly. (was wrong - would hope it was obvious I believed it)
b) Not voting VMD and defending her before she was lynched. (was wrong, have amended offending towntell. Still, I did attack her at times during the game and I think brought up a powerful argument against her at one point. Also - I was voting CTD instead of her during her wagon, I'd lol if I moved off one scum onto another scum).
c)

quickhammering deathnote

if you read my analysis of the imprint wagon at the time you'll see much of it ringing true, and as elvis points out, I robbed VMD (and CTD) of a near-certain imprint. Also hammered scum, but that's less indicative.

If you think that's scummy enough to put me ahead of CTD, lynch me. Otherwise lets lynch him and bathe in his blood.

[SerialClergyman]

elvis - I'm glad that you and farside agree on something, however. Convince each other you're town and we can get this party started.

But it's not the town read, it's stating a town read publicly that earlier in the game you were prepared to rip out my spleen through my mouth and eat it in front of me for doing.

[SerialClergyman]

While searching around for bitchy quotes, I came upon this post from KoC.

Gogo townSC points.

[farside22]

elvis - I'm glad that you and farside agree on something, however. Convince each other you're town and we can get this party started.

But it's not the town read, it's stating a town read publicly that earlier in the game you were prepared to rip out my spleen through my mouth and eat it in front of me for doing.

It wasn't that bad. I just thought EK was scum. Then after thinking about a game we were in and after with the game you and I were I I thought (still sort see it) as you scum in this game.
Looking at our game together with MM and how you were you can't blame me for thinking the worst of you.

with that said.

vote: CTD

[SerialClergyman]

yeah, yeah, I can never be trusted now... I think I used all of my trumps in that game. I'll never be obvtown again.

Actually, the game i played as scum with iamusername I made the poor man write out a 6 page perfect case against my partner and a townie then got the townie lynched in lylo for a perfect scum game.. I felt so sorry for him as he was making the case.. it really was brilliant, just had one wrong fork in the road along the way. Now he only plays with me when he's modding (I kid, I kid..)

What did you mean by our game with 'MM'? Who or what is MM?

[farside22]

Sorry F&E
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12759

I had mason/monk in my head.

[SerialClergyman]

yeah, I knew the game you were talking about, I just didn't know specifically what MM is.

[SerialClergyman]

By the way, if you ever want to teach your son grammar, DO NOT USE THIS SENTENCE:

Then after thinking about a game we were in and after with the game you and I were I I thought (still sort see it) as you scum in this game.

(Is jealous of your cute son. I'm very white and my 3-year live-with girlfriend is very Chinese so my kid won't even look like me! ><)

[farside22]

By the way, if you ever want to teach your son grammar, DO NOT USE THIS SENTENCE:

Then after thinking about a game we were in and after with the game you and I were I I thought (still sort see it) as you scum in this game.

(Is jealous of your cute son. I'm very white and my 3-year live-with girlfriend is very Chinese so my kid won't even look like me! ><)

I speak better then I write.
True story I'm slightly dyslexic and was never diagnosed with the issue. I have an issue with speaking some words and number issues.

As for my son I'm not bias he's adorable and a big flirt. If you notice his eyes are blue. Neither my husband nor myself have blue eyes but it's a recessive gene that runs in both our families. So you never know what traits, qualities are appearance your own child will have.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh, I didn't know, and I thought I would have read enough from you to work it out!

That's true, but generations of Chinese vs my crappy English/Polish genes isn't going to be much of a matchup. It's all good, I've seen stacks of cute attractive Eurasian people, it's just looking at MY child with ASIAN features that is going to feel kind of weird, I think. You know? (also I'm blonde so that's out the window )

[SerialClergyman]

To back up my rhetoric, here's what I wrote about those initial imprints at the end of D1 before I quickhammered.

@ buttonman thank you for answering. we as a group do indeed need to have the right to ask questions, and often explaining their motivation fully may cancel out the reason for asking them. If I said 'why do you support a lynch of person A' and when asked why replied 'because you never supported a lynch of person A and I want to try and trip you up' the question isn't going to work.

As it was, this is a question designed to get you and the group thinking about who is voting to imprint you and why. If you think there are likely to be no scum on your imprint list, as well as you not being scum yourself, you suddenly have 6 people of which 4 are scum. It's possible, but unlikely.

Also, DeathNote is imprinting all of you. This is surely somewhat suspicious given apparantly everyone now seems in the mood to lynch him. Why did you think 0 scum on your imprint list was an option when your biggest suspect was on there? Are you reasonably happy thinking that if he's scum the other 4 are town?

In all - Ohio (5) - Nevada, Florida, Arizona, Ohio, Colorado
Colorado (5) - Nevada, Ohio, Colorado, Iowa, Florida
Hawaii (5) - Nevada, Arizona, Kansas, Colorado, Hawaii

Deathnote, Starbuck, Limerick, Vala Del M, Messiah, XRECX farside and Buttonman are the unique individual members who are voting to imprint these three people.

Plum, Serial, elvis and Pug are not on this list.

I know for sure that there is scum on this list because I know my alignment, but surely most of you can see that with that many unique people there's almost certainly a heavy scum presence.

For me, I'll add to that that the four people off the wagon are perhaps the four people that I have the largest town read on.

Add to THAT the fact that the FIRST THREE PEOPLE on the DeathNote wagon are Plum, elvis and Pug. I would be on that list too were it not for the fact that I am voting Starbuck.

So of the people who found and started pushing the wagon that we all now think is scummy and have all jumped on, NONE of them are imprinting ANY of the 3 major imprint candidates.

There is definitely scum amongst those three, possibly 2/3 of them. I remain heavily not in favour of an imprint.

[xRECKONERx]

gogo gadget CTD lynch