Mini 466 - Game Over


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Post Post #212 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:41 am

Post by Jester »

klopyrev wrote:I keep reading different posts over and over, but there are just too many for me to base my opinion about anything. How do you keep notes? What do you write down and what do you not write down?
For every post that seems to say something interesting to me, I write down the post number, whether I think the post makes them town, scum, or is just a data point, and a short note regarding what I think about that post. For instance, for this post (and your post 179), I wrote down:
"klopyrev, Maybe Scum, 162: Spends all of his time asking newbie Qs instead of playing"


I find it particularly useful for writing down who defends whom, who attacks whom, and sometimes who votes for whom. Mafia tend to attack the same targets without voting for them, hoping to inspire others to do so.
Dral wrote:The single scummiest thing said and you consider her town?
Yep. Townies under pressure say the scummiest things, in my experience... way more scummy things than actual scum would say. Thanks for your post! Very interesting stuff.
Numenorean7 wrote:How did curious hop on the deadline wagon in post 131? Wishful thinking?
This is quite a good catch. In retrospect, curious's 131 is extremely scummy: he lashes out at Lowell without actually voting for him, then when the Amelia backlash started, 20-odd posts later he jumps on Amelia's back instead. Gonna make it official:
FOS: curiouskarmadog
. Excellent catch, Numenorean. I also agree with you that the Sir Tornado/AmeliaLi thing is a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. As I said, I'm much more interested in those that have been jumping on that band-wagon than Amelia herself.

I'm now comfortable with the idea of lynching either Nanosauromo or curiouskarmadog and will switch my vote as needed. For now, it remains on Nano. He still has posted the least amount of content in the game.
Numenorean7 wrote:Anyone think Ryan is being too townie?
This, though? Yeah, I agree with the others. I'm not sure there's any such thing.
AmeliaLi wrote:Okay. I just re read through all my posts, and holy shit, I'm acting Anti-Town.
Look who just joined the conversation. ;) How about jumping back into the game by describing who you think is acting scummy besides yourself, and who you think is acting more townish?
Numenorean7 wrote:Ryan's aggressive scumhunting might be making some of the Mafia feel nervous, and they'd be eager to jump on any suspicions voiced by some other player.
Yep. This is why I also tend to play pretty aggressively as a townie. I haven't survived a game of MS yet as a townie, but I find an aggressive play style works for the town as a whole. By the time I'm dead, reading my back posts always turns up scum.
klopyrev wrote:It seems kind of like an attempt to place a vote that would not result in his being blamed if AmeliaLi turned out to be town. This is vaguely scummy, in my opinion.
It was extremely scummy, yes. But klopyrev's play style is so erratic that it'd hard to tell whose side he was on even if you knew for sure.
Nano, in 204, wrote:a repeat of his 154
Is nobody else worried about this? We're at post 212, and Nano's posted exactly four of them: one random vote, one "I'm here", and two "AmeliaLi OMG SCUM lynch all lurkers OBVIOUS!!!111!!"
Indy wrote:Absolutely nothing
Kison, please prod (or better still, replace) Indy
. He hasn't posted a single thing since post 63, more than a week ago.

And I'm caught up again. I'm comfortable with a curiouskarmadog or Nano lynch. I'm certain at least one is scum, and maybe both. I look forward to seeing Lowell's post today. As of this moment, I think ryan and Numenorean are probably town, followed by Fireball and AmeliaLi. I think klopyrev is probably an insane townie. Lowell and Indy haven't said enough for me to form an opinion, which makes me very nervous about them with 200 posts in the books. Dral and Sir Tornado are in the middle, though Dral's repetition of curiouskarmadog's 99 in his own 151 is still a little worrisome to me.
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Post Post #213 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:39 am

Post by ryan »

Numenorean7 wrote:
I wrote:Anyone think Ryan is being too townie?
Ryan wrote:LOL. Can you clarify how somebody can be "too townie?" That made me laugh when I first read it.
MightyFireball wrote:Is a logical fallacy called Too Townie. It's probably unintentional, but you should be aware of it.
I am aware of the fallacy "too townie". That's why I used that phrase.
My comment was meant to be humorous for the more experienced players, but it was mostly meant as a trap for inexperienced scum.
Ryan's aggressive scumhunting might be making some of the Mafia feel nervous, and they'd be eager to jump on any suspicions voiced by some other player.

Even after you two had mentioned the fallacy, a fish still nibbled at the bait:
AmeliaLi wrote:Ryan has asked all the good questions and I agree with the whole he's acting too-twon. But he hasn't given me reason to say the too-town thing is really bad. I've seen what he's done first hand!
I don't know what to make of this fish. Is Ryan acting scummy or isn't he? The word "too" means "to an excessive extent or degree; beyond what is desirable, fitting, or right". That means "too townie" is bad, right? AmeliaLi is not really making sense.
I still am not a big fan of setting "traps" in mafia games as more times than not you get a townie who gets himself sucked into it and than we end up lynching a townie because he made the wrong move at the wrong time. I agree with Jester that I do find you to be doing pro town moves, but this one wasn't your finest.
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Post Post #214 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:24 am

Post by Nanosauromo »

Jester wrote:
Nano, in 204, wrote:a repeat of his 154
Is nobody else worried about this? We're at post 212, and Nano's posted exactly four of them: one random vote, one "I'm here", and two "AmeliaLi OMG SCUM lynch all lurkers OBVIOUS!!!111!!"
I haven't posted much because I don't have much to post. Do you want me to start making stuff up?
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Post Post #215 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:45 am

Post by ryan »

Nanosauromo wrote:
Jester wrote:
Nano, in 204, wrote:a repeat of his 154
Is nobody else worried about this? We're at post 212, and Nano's posted exactly four of them: one random vote, one "I'm here", and two "AmeliaLi OMG SCUM lynch all lurkers OBVIOUS!!!111!!"
I haven't posted much because I don't have much to post. Do you want me to start making stuff up?
No but we would appreciate some suspicions, information, content from you. :)
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Post Post #216 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:53 am

Post by MightyFireball »

Hmmm.... I'm currently under the impression that Nano isn't so much scum as he just has a strange play style. I highly doubt that scum would be so openly saying that they aren't contributing. However, I would like to see some more analysis from him. Also, Dral hasn't said anything in a while. A little something from him would be cool as well.
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Post Post #217 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:56 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

Jester wrote:
Numenorean7 wrote:How did curious hop on the deadline wagon in post 131? Wishful thinking?
This is quite a good catch. In retrospect, curious's 131 is extremely scummy: he lashes out at Lowell without actually voting for him, then when the Amelia backlash started, 20-odd posts later he jumps on Amelia's back instead. Gonna make it official:
FOS: curiouskarmadog
. Excellent catch, Numenorean. I also agree with you that the Sir Tornado/AmeliaLi thing is a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. As I said, I'm much more interested in those that have been jumping on that band-wagon than Amelia herself.

I'm now comfortable with the idea of lynching either Nanosauromo or curiouskarmadog and will switch my vote as needed. For now, it remains on Nano. He still has posted the least amount of content in the game.
Numenorean7 wrote:Anyone think Ryan is being too townie?
This, though? Yeah, I agree with the others. I'm not sure there's any such thing.
AmeliaLi wrote:Okay. I just re read through all my posts, and holy shit, I'm acting Anti-Town.
Look who just joined the conversation. ;) How about jumping back into the game by describing who you think is acting scummy besides yourself, and who you think is acting more townish?
Numenorean7 wrote:Ryan's aggressive scumhunting might be making some of the Mafia feel nervous, and they'd be eager to jump on any suspicions voiced by some other player.
Yep. This is why I also tend to play pretty aggressively as a townie. I haven't survived a game of MS yet as a townie, but I find an aggressive play style works for the town as a whole. By the time I'm dead, reading my back posts always turns up scum.
klopyrev wrote:It seems kind of like an attempt to place a vote that would not result in his being blamed if AmeliaLi turned out to be town. This is vaguely scummy, in my opinion.
It was extremely scummy, yes. But klopyrev's play style is so erratic that it'd hard to tell whose side he was on even if you knew for sure.
Nano, in 204, wrote:a repeat of his 154
Is nobody else worried about this? We're at post 212, and Nano's posted exactly four of them: one random vote, one "I'm here", and two "AmeliaLi OMG SCUM lynch all lurkers OBVIOUS!!!111!!"
Indy wrote:Absolutely nothing
Kison, please prod (or better still, replace) Indy
. He hasn't posted a single thing since post 63, more than a week ago.

And I'm caught up again. I'm comfortable with a curiouskarmadog or Nano lynch. I'm certain at least one is scum, and maybe both. I look forward to seeing Lowell's post today. As of this moment, I think ryan and Numenorean are probably town, followed by Fireball and AmeliaLi. I think klopyrev is probably an insane townie. Lowell and Indy haven't said enough for me to form an opinion, which makes me very nervous about them with 200 posts in the books. Dral and Sir Tornado are in the middle, though Dral's repetition of curiouskarmadog's 99 in his own 151 is still a little worrisome to me.
Honestly, I dont have much of a defense for this. At the time, in another thread the Mod said he might force a deadline (that I felt was early)..mixed the two games up..once Ryan said "friday" on this thread I thought it was this one...I said "Pending" versus "Friday" because I could not immeidately find the post that gave a date, but thought for sure it was this one. At any rate, that is a lame excuse, I know...but it is the truth.
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Post Post #218 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:00 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

furthermore, I am comfortable with my vote, I would like to see more content from her...and Lowell..
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE
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Post Post #219 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:18 am

Post by ryan »

Lowell and Dral would be a couple that I'd like to hear who they find guilty. I understand that Lowell seems to be MIA right now but something when he gets back on would be appreciated
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Post Post #220 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:18 am

Post by Dral »

MightyFireball wrote:Also, Dral hasn't said anything in a while. A little something from him would be cool as well.
I am seeking a replacement. So don't hold anything I didn't say against them. :)
unvote
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Post Post #221 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:20 am

Post by ryan »

Well that clears that up, how about you Lowell?
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Post Post #222 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:56 am

Post by Nanosauromo »

MightyFireball wrote:Hmmm.... I'm currently under the impression that Nano isn't so much scum as he just has a strange play style.
It's true that I am known for being strange.
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Post Post #223 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:09 pm

Post by Numenorean7 »

I still am not a big fan of setting "traps" in mafia games as more times than not you get a townie who gets himself sucked into it and than we end up lynching a townie because he made the wrong move at the wrong time. I agree with Jester that I do find you to be doing pro town moves, but this one wasn't your finest.
I do agree, traps aren't all they're cracked up to be. But it occurred to me that the Mafia would be getting nervous about your scumhunting, so I thought I'd give it a shot. But I'm the last person to put too much credence in traps and who falls into them. They can be useful as supplementary evidence against someone who is already under suspicion, but shouldn't be the basis of anything.

212: nice post, Jester. :)

My current scumorder:
Indy
AmeliaLi
Nanosauramo
klopyrev
Lowell
Sir Tornado
Dral
curiouskarmadog
Jester
MightyFireball
ryan
Numenorean7

I second the request for a prod/replacement on Indy, as well as a possible prod on Dral.
Lowell, weren't you supposed to come back today?
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Post Post #224 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:34 am

Post by Sir Tornado »

From my notes on AmeliaLi:

The
red
are the posts I think are scummy. The
bold red
are the posts I think are too scummy.

Green
posts are posts that I think makes someone pro-townie

Blue
posts (or parts of posts) are the posts with WIFOM arguments.

Page 1

1. Confirm
2. NCR
3.
Dice roll -- messed up

4. Random vote Sir Tornado
Page 2

5. NCR
6. Asks Klopyrev reason for voting self
7.
Follows Sir Tornado in unvoting the random vote

8.
Accepts Klopyrev's reason for self voting

Page 3

9.
Calls Klopyrev highly suspicious for self voting

10. NRC
11. Comments about no one giving her any reason to vote for
12.
Defends Kloprev for voting for self
-- contradiction to her post 8.
13. Agrees with MightyFireBall that there is no reason to vote for Klopyrev
14. Defends accusation from Ryan for following Sir Tornado by saying she randomly voted
15. Tries to defend her random vote.
Page 4

16. Tries to explain her "sitting around" and trying to observe.
17. NRC
18. Asks other people to post more often
19.
Says her unvoting her random voting after Sir T was a coincidence and then says she voted after seeing Sir T unvote and thinking "
that's a great idea
"
-- contradicting herself in the same post! (more on this later in the post)
Page 5

20. Defends herself for being defensive.
Seems to be trying not to act scummy

21. Edit for the last post
22. Calls Klopyrev observant.
23.
Realizes that she screwed up the dice for random vote

24. More on dice thing
25. Dice thing
26. NRC
Page 6

27. Asks Nanosauromo to contribute more
28.
Advocates the policy of getting rid of lurkers
because
"they aren't trully here anyways

29. Defends her earlier comment about getting rid of lurkers.
30. Backtracks and says
Threatening to Lynch them is also a good way to prod them....

31. Says she hates to throw votes around
32.
Agrees with Ryan about pressurising lurkers, but insists on lynching them.

33.
Says she was joking about lynching lurkers,
and says we need to pressurize them instead

Page 7

34. Agrees that she has been acting anti-town.
Page 8

nothing
Page 9

35. NRC
36. Accuses Klopyrev of bandwagoning her for her "lynch all lurkers" post and
says the scum could possibly make use of her as scapegoat.

37.
Comments on possibilities of Klopyrev having a power role
-- Fishing for power roles? From what I have seen of Klopyrev, he would come out telling everyone whether he has a power role or not (
DON'T DO THAT Klopyrev!) if he is not a scum after reading that post.

Which makes me happy with a
FOS AmeliaLi


Questions I want answered by AmeliaLi failing which FOS would turn into a vote:

1) In Post 44 you unvoted along with me. In it's explanation, you stated in Post 90 that your unvote was "coincidence". However, you say in the same post, that you unvoted after seeing me unvote. Now...

Coincidence = We just happened to be unvoting at the same time

Unvoting after seeing me unvote and thinking "
That's a good idea
" = Trying to follow me.

Two totally different things. What exactly were you doing?

2. In Post 46 you accepted Klopyrev's reasons for self voting. However, in Post 51 you say
it is highly suspicious
.

Why the sudden change of heart in the space of 5 posts and 212 minutes?

3. In Post 135 you say "
Let's lynch them
(lurkers)". Yet, quite soon, on being questioned by Ryan you change your position and say "
I was joking when I said lynch them
"?

This really doesn't make any sense at all to me. Sorry. I hope you can tell me how to make sense of it all.
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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:40 am

Post by Sir Tornado »

Ah, well, there were a few formatting errors in the last post, a few unclosed bold tags.... (I should start previewing!) however, I missed out on one thing:

EBWOP: 2nd question to Amelia in my last post.

I wrote:

2. In Post 46 you accepted Klopyrev's reasons for self voting. However, in Post 51 you say
it is highly suspicious


There is another twist to this. Five posts after calling Klopyrev highly suspicious, Amelia writes defends his self voting saying:
Yeah... But he said he was sorta new so that might have to play a part in the whole voting-for-self brain lapse....


How can a person's opinions about someone change so rapidly twice in the space of 10 posts in an awfully quiet game which had no real content at that time?
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:40 am

Post by ryan »

WOW. Interesting questions Sir Tornado, and some actual content should be coming from Amelia as your raise some very quizical questions. Self voting is ALWAYS an anti town move and that defense was a little weird
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:11 am

Post by Numenorean7 »

Very nice, ST. Your post matches and carifies my thoughts about AmeliaLi, although I missed that blantant contradiction about klopyrev. Perhaps I ought to do another re-read soon.

I do have one question: what do you mean, "too scummy" (the bold red parts)?
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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:57 am

Post by Sir Tornado »

Numenorean7


By too scummy, I mean scummier than normal scummy posts...

A rather crude explanation:

If normal scummy posts set alarm bells off in my brain, "too scummy" posts set alarm bells off even loudly...

Bah, you get the point, right?
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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:02 am

Post by Numenorean7 »

Yeah, I get the point. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't some bizarre mutation of the "too townie" fallacy. ;)
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:29 am

Post by klopyrev »

Hmm... To answer AmeliaLi's post... I was jumping on the bandwagon with the vote on her. Considering I was going away for 4 days, she was the best place to put my vote and I didn't really want to not vote. Anyway, I'm wondering why everyone is so suspicious of Indy. He's just not here. You all should be focusing on people who are here. I know that it makes sense for a mafia to not say anything to keep suspicion of themselves, but there are several other mafia we could try to find in the meantime. To repeat another post: Townies often act more scummy than actual scum when heavily pressured. I believe that would be AmeliaLi's situation. Also, since when has Sir Tornado been analyzing things. This was the first time I've seen him act as a vigilant townie (though I may be wrong) I currently don't have a concrete opinion on who is scum and who is not. Since my vote is still safe on AmeliaLi(safe meaning she's not at -1), I'm keeping it there.
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:38 am

Post by ryan »

Klopyrev: WHY are you playing this game so safe? You leave a vote on somebody because you are gone for 4 days because it's "safe" You think we should go after the people who are posting instead of pressure/prodding the inactives, (another being safe) Calling Sir Tornado a "vigilant townie" (how do you know he's a townie?) And still using the "save vote on AmeliaLi" You seem to be taking the wrong approach in attacking and catching scum. I was weary of you early and you continue to stay on my radar for a possible scum.
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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:50 am

Post by klopyrev »

What I'm saying is Sir Tornado seems to be acting unusual (From what I've seen so far.)
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:57 am

Post by MightyFireball »

Klopyrev, I may be wrong, but you seem to imply that you have a problem with Sir Tornado "suddenly becoming a vigilant townie." Would you prefer that he keeps all his opinions to himself and not share anything?

As for Sir Tornado's suspicion of Ameliali, I agree with most of his points, except his third condemning evidence bit.
Sir Tornado's Third Condemning Evidence Bit wrote:3. In Post 135 you say "Let's lynch them(lurkers)". Yet, quite soon, on being questioned by Ryan you change your position and say "I was joking when I said lynch them"?
I don't find it
too
hard to believe that AmeliaLi could've been joking. Granted, it probably wasn't the best place for a joke, but I don't really find it scummy. All your other points are valid.
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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:04 am

Post by ryan »

MightFireBall. COULD have been joking is the truth, would have been more obvious with an lol or a smiley face, it is pretty difficult to know what people are thinking when they type over the computer. I thought Ameliali backed down instantly when I brought up the lynching lurkers question, fairly simple question for a pro town player I would have thought.
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:34 am

Post by Sir Tornado »

klopyrev wrote:To repeat another post: Townies often act more scummy than actual scum when heavily pressured. I believe that would be AmeliaLi's situation. Also, since when has Sir Tornado been analyzing things. This was the first time I've seen him act as a vigilant townie (though I may be wrong) I currently don't have a concrete opinion on who is scum and who is not. Since my vote is still safe on AmeliaLi(safe meaning she's not at -1), I'm keeping it there.
AmeliaLi was not under pressure when she posted the posts I questioned in my question 1 and 2. And, I agree that townies may act scummy when they are put under pressure. That is why I did not question Amelia about her posts before. Now, that the saga of "Amelia and coincidental(?) unvote" and "Amelia and lynch the lurkers post" is over, I can ask her questions as to why she made certain posts she made without her making any more posts under pressure and look scummy if she is town.
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:38 am

Post by Sir Tornado »

EBWOP:

On rereading, I think the last line of my last post can be misinterpreted. It says:
I can ask her questions as to why she made certain posts she made without her making any more posts under pressure and look scummy if she is town.
The "without" is also extended to the "look scummy if she is town" part. So, it would mean:
I can ask her questions as to why she made certain posts she made without her making any more posts under pressure and
without
look
ing
scummy if she is town.
Just in case someone tries to nitpick too much with semantics.
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