Mafia 105 - Caught in the Crossfire (Game Over)

[Vi]

I think I still would have condemned calling other players n00bs, with zeros if I recall correctly, regardless of alignment. It's disrespectful.

...which to a degree is the point.

[CSL]

I predicted the future.

Not like it was hard though.

This.

[popsofctown]

Armchair coaches, hindsight generals, dead scumhunters.... legends among men, all of them.

[hiphop]

walk with pops on townie remains...Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

This is my first game of my ten games on ms that town lost when I survived to the finish. Also my first time in lylo. I should have been lynched a long time ago. There were a few mistakes I made that I should have been lynched for. My interactions with elvis totally did not want to vote him. I could work on that. In my first game as scum I bussed both my partners. I was lynched day one and they both survived to the finish.

rc just to let you know. this post should have had a vote in it. That was your gimme. Let's just say I thought I was fried. Though thinking that I was a noob, kind of explained why the vote wasn't there. Great playing with you. You were scum in the last game, I repayed you the favor, but this time I won (I don't know how, but I did.) By the way after I read this post I kew you were the vig. I got the hint in other posts (too lazy to look), but this one sold me the idea. Coupled with the fact that it looked like you were swaying towards me, you were the next to go. I would not have voted you if I was town. Pads and you were obv towns I thought.

Also I know I would have posted more, but I started to lurk to create less information to lynch me with. One thing I never did was post in the final 24 hours of the day. Wasn't going to create anything new. Lurking is something I thought I never would do, until I actually became mafia. I also lurked in my other games that I was town in, while I was playing on this one, so that people couldn't say that I was lurking. Kept up with the game, but didn't post.

Spyrex- you were after me, but then you made this post Why sotty over me? You could have had me. It scared me when I saw pops vote put me close to being lynched.

By the way pads, thanks. If you hadn't believed I was town, I would have most likely been lynched in lylo.

Too me pops buddying on spyrex was obv to me. Of course that could have been because I was scum. It surprised me that it wasn't mentioned to the end, when pads mentioned it. It was the going apart than coming back together that gave us the win. For those who read the scum qt, you will see that pops didn't really go after me until after he found out I was scum with him.

Everybody that was nk'd I wanted to nk, except for fhq, but I had to give that one to pops.

Hoopla- because she was in my previous game as scum. Big part of why I was lynched. She had said I was town in that game and than pushed everybody to lynch me. Did not want that to happen in this one.
recruited charter- (elvis and imag were dead, and pops wasn't talking to me, so I needed insurance)
rofl- He was leading the town, and I wanted the town to not have any clear leaders, so that people would spread instead of all piling on. Unfortunately spyrex took over. Either way town sort of split which helped keep me alive.
xyl- He finally got off of me, which gave me the indication that he thought I was town. Since he was tunneling on me before, I didn't want him to go back to tunneling. It was better to kil lhim then, when he was not attacking me.
rc- obv vig.
fhq-Really wanted to kill spyrex, but pops said no. So we killed fhq instead. I knew pops wanted to keep spyrex because he was having a fun time with him.

Good game everybody. This will be my last game here for the next three months. Zoraster, really wished you would have had two mafia. I love how you had the possibility of having all those roles. It puts some unexpectancy in the game. I hope to have you as a mod when I return.

[popsofctown]

I wanted Spyrex alive because Spyrex was very unlikely to vote town, and he was less obv town than fhq. imaginality's interaction with EP made town fhq strongly likely, and fhq posted so little that it was unlikely to get screwed up. (which interests me, it seems like replacing in those shoes the correct play, even as town, is to half lurk). When fhq did post it wasn't crazy pro-town but it was fine.

I had little impression of where fhq's vote would go on the final day, I was pretty sure Spyrex's vote would hit Pads, Shotty, or maybe hiphop. Even if it hit hiphop, I would just join in, and Spyrex's impression of me as town would be so solidly cemented that I'd win the three man lylo.

[popsofctown]

EBWOP, first sentence, "very likely to vote a townie"

[hiphop]

I should of joined pads and lynched you.

Zoraster can you post the dead QT.

[popsofctown]

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Hoopla]

I can't believe we lost this! We were doing so well. But I suppose pops and hiphop played well at the end (I kind of zoned out in the middle) - their night kills were sensible.

I'm dazzled by the plurality rule and probably wouldn't play it again - it's unnecessary, and seems to add complexity just for the sake of it. A couple of months ago, I asked you about the benfits of plurality voting, which you said you couldn't go into detail about due to this game being run by it. I kind of want to know about those reasons, because I think later on that page Ectomancer hits the nail on the head;

When I don't have a game currently running using it, I'll go more into the advantages (and disadvantages, which are significant but not the one SensFran has brought up) of it. I'm not sure it's fair to go into it right now as it's too specifically applicable to a game rather than merely general theory.

If it is standard you should be able to discuss the mechanic regardless of whether a game is running or not. Your statement illustrates that even you don't believe it to be standard or common.

[sigma]

nice game, scum.

Scum has now won in 4 out of 5 games that I've played in. Apparently I'm good at throwing off power-roles.

[zoraster]

Dead QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/vfZWdYjfXxMyb

I'm dazzled by the plurality rule and probably wouldn't play it again - it's unnecessary, and seems to add complexity just for the sake of it. A couple of months ago, I asked you about the benfits of plurality voting, which you said you couldn't go into detail about due to this game being run by it. I kind of want to know about those reasons, because I think later on that page Ectomancer hits the nail on the head;

It's a fair point, and I'll point out that in my current game as well as my upcoming game, I am not using the plurality mechanic. But..

First, the plurality rule itself doesn't add a whole lot more complexity, I don't think. There's not a lot else that a player has to consider at any point... all it does is say that when the deadline comes, there will be a lynch. The Lynch + 24 hour rule, on the other hand, is considerably more complex, but I also think of the two it's the rule that has the more positive effect.

Second, since you've focused on the plurality voting in particular, I'll try and address that: the attempt of the plurality voting rule is to do a few things: (a) try to increase the pressure by any individual vote, which in turn increases the activity and scum finding power of that vote; (b) decrease the power and relevance of the "hammer" vote [I find that the "hammer" vote, while an interesting analytical tool is avoided so wholeheartedly in some games that it tends to stagnate games.]; and (c) it increases the relevance of deadlines [though deadlines can be successfully implemented in majority voting setups, the binary solution of either reach a majority and lynch or don't lynch decreases the absolute relevance]

All this said, by far the lowest ratings I got in the survey so far have been on this point, although it's extremely divided. Most don't seem to care one way or the other about the plurality voting rule (most neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the statement, and an equal number who like and dislike it), but the Lynch + 24 hour rule was extremely divisive. An equal number STRONGLY liked it as STRONGLY disliked it, and these are the two modes.

So in my evaluation, I think I do agree with you somewhat, Hoopla. While I think the plurality voting mechanic does accomplish something, it's possibly unnecessary as there are other methods of accomplishing my goals. But I continue to think the Lynch + 24 hour rule is a good rule, even though it has the power to change things dramatically. In either case, my current game (Real Time Mafia) and my upcoming game (Parallel Universe Mafia) only involve straight up majority voting, for a variety of reasons (though the reason is largely about timing and not about whether the rules are good for these types of games).

---

So I thought I'd also respond to some of the anonymous comments, but in the interest of preserving anonymity, I'll paraphrase the comments (or just answer the comments):

1. There's a comment confused about the point of the Mafia Masons. The mafia masons were intended to do precisely two things: day talk and provide town, should they lynch one, with information that another exists.

2. A comment that, I think not unfairly, called the Traitor Vig backup RB ridiculous: When designing this role, unfortunately I didn't consider what his role name would be once he died. I mean, I knew that I was going to reveal all the information about him, but I didn't consider that how effing crazy it'd look to have it written out on one line as one role. I don't mean to say that the only reason this role might be ridiculous is semantic, but I do think that may well be part of it.

3. To a comment asking me to be more of a prod-nazi: My sincere hope, both with this game and my mini-normal I ran back in September, was that by allowing people to prod others literally at any time (no requirement for a 72 hour wait), I'd remove subjective nature of discretionary mod prods as well as allow the game to dictate the pace of people's contributions. Unfortunately, people still seemed reluctant to want to prod someone.

4. The Jailkeeper's actions: Yeah. I wish that hadn't happened either. Other than CSL's fairly minor play, this was the sole taint on an otherwise great game.

[StrangerCoug]

As his backup, I should mention that I was scum in zoraster's mini normal, and I kind of felt the strategy of us quickhammering for the win shouldn't have been taken away from us by the lynch-plus-24-hour rule. But hey, it made us try harder, and we won.

[SpyreX]

Good lord it just really sunk in that I was a miller and never knew. Ohh hot damn talk about a perfect storm of bad on my part.

I feel REALLY responsible for this loss. We were in a good spot and my blinders screwed it up.

Bad, bad SpyreX.

[hiphop]

The dead qt made me laugh.

For the record rofl. I did not know you were a cop before I killed you. It was only after you flipped that I knew what your actions were. I didn't realize when I wrote it but 1612 is a big scumtell.

I already explained why I killed xyl before rc, bt the reasons I gave in the scum qt were not legit. The real reasons are what I said in 2053, and because I thought you might be the vig. At that point I thought it could be you or rc. Also the doctor excuse was something I used only to convince pops. I knew after the jailkeeper that there would not be any more saves.

I don't know how I come across as a newb in every game I play. It just happens. I was on edge this entire game.

Oh, my day one play, I would have acted like that whether I was town or scum. Jump on a bw and get a lynch. I thought that there was way too much activity and it needed to tone down some. That s why I didn't scum hunt day one.

[popsofctown]

FTR, I think the town would have been better off if they had left RF alive. They should have listened to me .

You definitely shouldn't blacklist RayFrost. The truth is, at some critical point of probability of being lynched, (like 98% ish), it's playing to his wincon to offer up a deal like he did. He can aim for the chance of a crazy role interaction causing the town to miscalculate how much they can milk him for (The town roleblocker AND cop visited the PGO? How did that happen? etc).

He claimed in-game that he wasn't really playing to his win-con, but anything said in-game can be a lie and as a mod I think you should assume Rayfrost is playing to his wincon unless in private conversation he says "No, I'm not really playing to my wincon."


I disagree with Vi, I like zoraster's lurking policy. It would have replaced out Bridges & Baloons in the one normal I played where he won as scum by just posting, "I might post later, but i have some real life problems right now", thus breaking the spirit of the lurking rule. The spirit of the lurking rule isn't "police everyone's play and make them have a certain playstyle", it's "remove the ambiguity between a choice not to post in the thread and people who are too busy to post". I don't want people cracking the spirit of the rule in half by posting snippets about funerals and weddings, if they don't have enough time to post game content they need to be replaced.


Fun quotes from the dead thread!

"Me and my mason used it a ton... we chatted all the time and I think we fell in love... lol"

I'm in love with you two Elvis!! <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

"There's really no way town isn't going to win this. Being scum sucks. Time to read this."

You forgot to count my slot as 4 scums for I am the Jinjonator.

"Hiphop is saying that pops voting him was a mistake because he (hiphop) might have been lynched, and that he(pops) should vote someone else the next day. I don't understand hiphop's need for self-preservation here at all."

At the time I bussed, I thought hiphop looked really bad. But no one else was reacting the same way, much to my surprise. Hiphop was really scummy, but he wasn't being perceived as very scummy, and for that reason I understand him thinking my bus was a mistake since he actually wasn't the far behind me in town's perceptions.

"hiphop is toying with his prey. I'll bet he's loving every second of it. Him and pops are sitting there giggling like schoolgirls as they make the town dance to their tunes."

Oh it's true. The last day I put a plaid skirt on just to giggle in.




Hiphop, why the milk truck would you lie to me in the scum quicktopic?

[CSL]

Yeah...

Hey zoraster, you did not give me the dead QT when I got lynched. Why is that?

[hiphop]

sorry pops. At the time I really wanted xyl lynched.

[popsofctown]

Is that a "sorry but i'd do it again"?

[hiphop]

absolutely not.

[popsofctown]

okie

[zoraster]

Yeah...

Hey zoraster, you did not give me the dead QT when I got lynched. Why is that?

Ah, I'm sorry CSL. I think what happened was you were the first to die so there was no point in giving you a QT with no one else in it.

[Hoopla]

Oops, Zoraster. When I was talking about plurality lynching, I was incorporating the lynch+24 aspect into it as well, which is where most of the complexity and my criticism lies.

Lynch+24 doesn't make sense to me - once a decision to lynch someone is decided, you don't need an extra 24 hours for players to decide again who to lynch. It also makes it unfair if you miss this 24 hour window because of whatever reasons. Scrambling for deadlines by towns are the worst, but having to wait out a scrambling period every lynch without choice seems very unnecessary, and alters tactics in ways that don't seem normal to me.

[CSL]

Yeah...

Hey zoraster, you did not give me the dead QT when I got lynched. Why is that?

Ah, I'm sorry CSL. I think what happened was you were the first to die so there was no point in giving you a QT with no one else in it.

I actually wasn't. Someone got daykilled before I was lynched.

And even if there wasn't anyone dead yet, I would still bookmark it so I'd save it for later, when it was active.

I will end up making a QT for dead people in my game, since it is around in case they want to talk about the game, without revealing important info.

[zoraster]

Oops, Zoraster. When I was talking about plurality lynching, I was incorporating the lynch+24 aspect into it as well, which is where most of the complexity and my criticism lies.

Lynch+24 doesn't make sense to me - once a decision to lynch someone is decided, you don't need an extra 24 hours for players to decide again who to lynch. It also makes it unfair if you miss this 24 hour window because of whatever reasons. Scrambling for deadlines by towns are the worst, but having to wait out a scrambling period every lynch without choice seems very unnecessary, and alters tactics in ways that don't seem normal to me.

Well I understand the criticism of both complexity and people missing that relatively narrow window.

However, I'm not sure I buy the idea that "once a lynch is decided" thing. In the normal course of events, everyone is able to evaluate every vote leading up to a lynch EXCEPT that last one, which is why the hammer becomes such a powerful thing. It's true that future days allow evaluation (unless lylo), but it's considerably watered down because there's other information flowing in, and the town is potentially working from a disadvantaged position.

That's not to say that I think the majority vote ending the day is necessarily a

bad

method (I'm using it in an upcoming game), but I don't think it's automatically the best choice.

[elvis_knits]

OMG congrats to pops and hiphop! They played an amazing game, and were even able to win given the extreme handicap of having myself on their scumteam.

Scum mason QT was very very fun, and I did indeed fal in love with pops!