Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)

[Kinetic]

I'm planning on hurting him and I kind of prematurely raged on him. I'm all for his death ASAP. GOGO!

[Kinetic]

...what?

@Mr. Sleddy Claws: When you say 7 damage, do you mean 7 below the initial HP value (8 total damage), or 7 from where he was (1 above normal, making it 7 total damage)?

That's correct. Yos was one above. He's only taken rage damage from the two of us. No one has hurt him yet.

[Kinetic]

Previous Flay posts seem to suggest it's the former, but frankly, that seems a rather weird way of counting tallies. :/ It's not like the first point doesn't count.

(You just have to deal with me for the next 90 minutes and then I go into looooong flight leg. Enjoy your break from sugar-high demon thing.)


PEdit: HI SCUMATT

It's counted like that because he doesn't want to reveal how much HP each person has, as HP is tied to role.

[Kinetic]

Woah. What the hell is going on? I guess the scum are killing me since I was confirmed town yesterday?

Read the thread, I confirmed you're scum bud. GG.

[Kinetic]

Woah. What the hell is going on? I guess the scum are killing me since I was confirmed town yesterday?

Read the thread, I confirmed you're scum bud. GG.

I'm trying to read the thread right now. I haven't had a chance to look at it since abotu 5:00 AM yesterday, so I'm like 8 pages behind, and I don't know if I'll have time to read the whole thing before I have to leave for work today.

Anyway, of course I'm not confirmed scum. Me and Matt raged and killed Fate at the same time the scum killed someone with rage, so that means that me and Matt are confirmed town. I see that you're claiming raging me for 4; that's really stupid and anti-town of you, but I suppose it confirms you as town as well. Has anyone claimed the rest of the rage on me?

Tierce has claimed the other four on you. It's all in my post, I've worked out the math. Of you, Matt, LLD, and Xalxe there are most likely 3 scum (or less if there are less on the scum team that killed Void, but I'm assuming 3 right now). It's pretty much game over bud, your "confirmation" failed.

[Kinetic]

Further: With Yos not confirming when his timer was up, it shows that he probably did not rage when he said he did, and instead was coordinating with his team to set up a kill. This fits perfectly with the second raging by Matt happening much later.

This is obvious nonesense. Of course I raged when I said I did. First of all, it's confirmed that me and Matt both raged, or else Fate would not be dead. And secondly, your whole idea for a plan would be incredibly stupid; Flay could have come into the thread and posted a votecount 20 minutes after I sent the rage in and claimed it in thread, and if I had lied, I would have been a proven liar. Claiming to use rage in thread and not instantly using it would never work as a plan, and that is obvious if you take a minute and think about it.

Anyway, we can discuss this more later, but if I could PLEASE get a few heals right now before a scum gets on and finishes me that would be very much appreciated. If you guys really want you can lynch me later, but don't let the scum kill me before we have a chance to talk this through.

You're already at 5 votes. You will be dead as soon as the cooldowns are ready. Claim if you want, but I'm pretty sure you're going to die no matter what you claim.

[Kinetic]

Claim if you want, but I'm pretty sure you're going to die no matter what you claim.

[Kinetic]

Kill Yos first. If we start attacking everyone it'll turn into chaos. LLD is after MattP. If you want to claim your rage, use it on Matt IMO. I would prefer kkb to actually tell us why he wants to push lld before we move off the confirmed scum so that he can't take it back. But for right now, we kill Yos and Matt first.

[Kinetic]

btw as soon as i come off cd tomorrow morning im gonna hurt lld and rage dump. you can claim by then if you want lld but honestly im not really changing my mind here unless its a real damn good claim. time to guess what kind of guilty i have on u~~~

KKB, this isn't right and you know it. Now I have LLD on my scum list too, but we stick with the system. Get the votes before you hurt or you become a liability to the town.

[Kinetic]

but me? im doin satans work off of a hard earned ~guilty~

hurt lambda

I raged Yos as part of a plan to confirm myself. I actually chose Yos because I thought he was town and I was planning on raging the towniest player and then healing them. It wasn't until after the rage that aI realized Yos was scum.

You're going rogue. That is NOT ok. I don't even care if LLD is scum, raging her is anti-town right now. Don't make me have to slow down the Yos lynch to have to heal her because you're fucking around with a won game. We do this the right way or not at all.

Now you better claim. No more soft claiming bullshit because I'm starting to get annoyed KKB, you're far from confirmed. Last thing I need right now is this going down in chaos because you're impatient.

[Kinetic]

Are you fucking kidding me with this Rambo shit NOW. No, I'm not having another fucking Roflcopter. Kill fucking Kanye now. I don't fucking care if LLD or Yos or fucking everyone is scum, I'm not dealing with another fucking stupid townie losing my won fucking game again.

unvote; vote: KKB

Not fucking this time.

[Kinetic]

I know Yos is fucking scum, but I'm starting to think that KKB just wants to throw the game and it's pissing me off.

[Kinetic]

unvote; vote: Yos

Kanye. Stop. Now.

[Kinetic]

fyi you are pushing someone without a guilty on them over someone with a guilty on them. do you see my issue with this?

You have given us a vague "I have a guilty" and nothing else. Soft claims do NOT sit well in my book. You have given us no reason to trust you, and frankly, I don't give a damn what YOUR issue is. You have provided nothing to us to give us a reason to trust you. Do you see MY issue with this?

[Kinetic]

fyi you are pushing someone without a guilty on them over someone with a guilty on them. do you see my issue with this?

You have given us a vague "I have a guilty" and nothing else. Soft claims do NOT sit well in my book. You have given us no reason to trust you, and frankly, I don't give a damn what YOUR issue is. You have provided nothing to us to give us a reason to trust you. Do you see MY issue with this?

Especially when you've been so sure of it, when everything I know about this game is ambiguous. I think at BEST you have something you're overplaying, and at worst you're making it up all together.

[Kinetic]

He's grasping for straws. Scum can't play by the same rules as town, otherwise this game is broken just as Yos said. The people trying to confirm themselves by the "town" rules are the ones who are scum. Ironically, his defense of LLD is making me think she's the last scum now.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN HURT HER UNTIL WE HAVE 5 fucking votes. Kanye.

Let's finish off Yos already. Kthanks.

Die Scum Die.

[Kinetic]

YOS IS TOWN AND ANYONE WHO TARGETS HIM IS CONFIRMED SCUM TO ME BY THIS POINT LITERALLY GO KILL YOURSELVES

Yos is scum. Frankly this whole display just proves it to me. You are his scum buddy. Either LLD or Xalxe is the third. With Kanye doing that, it's probably LLD.

[Kinetic]

yo kinetic.

either call me scum and try to kill me or accept that i have lambda as confirmed scum. this is a binary fucking choice m8.

Either LLD or Xalxe is the third. With Kanye doing that, it's probably LLD.

[Kinetic]

heal Yos

Action is unspent, as Yosarian was already dead by this time.

[Kinetic]

Fuck me.

[Kinetic]

By the way, Kinetic, I am officially revoking your right to use the phrase "confirmed scum".

I still maintain that three of the four scum are in you, Matt, LLD, and Xalxe. I just may be wrong on you it appears. ><

[Kinetic]

Should we wait to kill LLD for Albert to return then? And I'm sure we can get Kanye to prove Albert is the one making the rage if he's ready for it.

[Kinetic]

on another note, im no longer opposed to massclaim if whatever massclaim ideas you had were still valid kinetic.

Maybe. I need to re-think a lot of things right now. Ego is a bit bruised and I'd rather not do more damage just yet until I'm a bit more sure.

[Kinetic]

If we have another town Oph, than they should watch Albert and claim if he rages on LLD. It'd be worth it to out another Oph to confirm Albert I think. Other than that, no other mass claiming.

[Kinetic]

Oh, I almost forgot to mention.

At 6:26 today, right after I hurt her, I sent a PM to flay telling him to use my one rage point on LLD.

Don't know if it'll go through or not, just wanted to mention that so as to not give any numbers guys a headache later.

Oh god this would have fucked with me for a long time if you didn't mention that.

[Kinetic]

kinetic: is matt still scum according to your theory?

According to my theory, technically Matt was more likely than Yos. However a lot of it was pretty solid that both were. As far as I'm concerned, Matt isn't cleared at all. In fact his "proving" himself has done nothing of the sort for me right now.

MATT STOP. Xalxe is town. Fucking hell. You're either scum or an idiot right now.

[Kinetic]

8 Alive. At least 4 votes to hurt. Institute some new order here.

Confirmed Town:
Zd, KKB

Mostly Confirmed Town:
Myself, Quadz

Not Completely Confirmed Town, but probably town:
Xalxe

Remainer:
Quiford, Matt

Yea, I'm pretty sure Matt is still scum. More to come in a bit, I need to check something.

[Kinetic]

Oh and Tierce. I think we put him in the not completely confirmed town, but probably town list, or remainder.

[Kinetic]

We should have him confirm Rage asap, but not into Xalxe, that would be a BAD idea.

I suggest Matt as the pin cushion.

Vote: Matt

And can we get a vote count in here.

[Kinetic]

I've looked it over. We can't mass claim. All it will do is maybe confirm one town. Maybe. But I don't think it'll catch scum right now.

[Kinetic]

I may have jumped the gun on calling Xalxe town, but... I think he is. I just saw something in a recent post that makes me think he is. I'd rather not explain it just yet though.

[Kinetic]

As it stands, one of three things happened:

One) I was right, and still am, and Matt, Xalxe, and LLD are the three scum
Two) I was wrong about there being any scum mechanic that is different in this game. Thus, the remaining scum must be within Quiford/Albert, Tierce, or KKB. As KKB is pretty much confirmed after 1v1 on LLD, it would mean that if there is no scum mechanic the scum must be Tierce and Quiford/Albert.
Three) There is a scum mechanic I am not sure of, but is most likely similar to rage, but doesn't cause hurt/heals to go on cooldown. In that case, no one is confirmed saved KKB. Hell, it could very well be they gain rage just the same as us, except theirs doesn't cause cooldowns. Actually... that might make more sense. If that's the case, I might be able to puzzle out some suspects, given some time to read back and see where the rage is.

[Kinetic]

It will take me a couple days though to do so. I'm leaving to visit family over the holiday tomorrow, and I'm packing most of the day today. I'll have internet access though, but I probably won't get to a real full read until the weekend or right after.

[Kinetic]

When xalxe and LLD are both flipped scum PLEASE keep calling me scum, I dare you kinetic

And when Xalxe is town? Like I'm pretty sure he is?

[Kinetic]

I want to know what about LLD made you think she'd be a good watching target.

I want an understanding of the thought processes that made you pick her.

yes but my question is why. of what use is this information to you?

I'm assuming he either A) wants to know if you saw something specifically scummy that would make sense from the scum group, or B) you can't answer it and that was an elaborate bussing strat to confirm you. Could you please stop avoiding the question and just answer it, its getting old and going nowhere.

[Kinetic]

I'm assuming he either A) wants to know if you saw something specifically scummy that would make sense from the scum group, or B) you can't answer it and that was an elaborate bussing strat to confirm you. Could you please stop avoiding the question and just answer it, its getting old and going nowhere.

you dont need to answer for him tyvm.

You need to stop avoiding every question, and then getting mad when people avoid your questions, tyvm.

[Kinetic]

wish you would use your fuckin head some times kinetic.

Wish you would answer a question when someone asks you to explain something instead of just saying nothing and then shrugging your shoulders and expecting people to read your mind.

[Kinetic]

-.-

So you're going to use sarcasm. Another avoidance. -.-

[Kinetic]

When xalxe and LLD are both flipped scum PLEASE keep calling me scum, I dare you kinetic

And when Xalxe is town? Like I'm pretty sure he is?

ITT you call me/Yos/Xalxe/LLD a 3/4 probable scumteam with Xalxe being conditionally scum only with me (otherwise it's Tierce and quadz as the remaining two I think you said but I'm not going to go through the effort of checking) and Yos landing town meaning that it MUST be a me/Xalxe/LLD scumteam, then call me scum and Xalxe town EVEN THOUGH you think Xalxe is scum with me and LLD

OK BUDDYBOI

You're horribly misunderstanding what I meant in this post:

As it stands, one of three things happened:

One) I was right, and still am, and Matt, Xalxe, and LLD are the three scum
Two) I was wrong about there being any scum mechanic that is different in this game. Thus, the remaining scum must be within Quiford/Albert, Tierce, or KKB. As KKB is pretty much confirmed after 1v1 on LLD, it would mean that if there is no scum mechanic the scum must be Tierce and Quiford/Albert.
Three) There is a scum mechanic I am not sure of, but is most likely similar to rage, but doesn't cause hurt/heals to go on cooldown. In that case, no one is confirmed saved KKB. Hell, it could very well be they gain rage just the same as us, except theirs doesn't cause cooldowns. Actually... that might make more sense. If that's the case, I might be able to puzzle out some suspects, given some time to read back and see where the rage is.

What I mean is, those are the three scenarios we are in. The fact that I am calling Xalxe likely town means I've ABANDONED my full faith and credit in the first one. Frankly, that was most likely when the 3/4 included Yos as scum. With Yos being town, it really screwed up that case and means that there are likely other errors.

The second one is more likely, but again, I'm not as sure about that. You seem to have a pure town read on the Albert slot. Up until the last, let's say 5-10 pages, I had a town read on Tierce. I can't imagine them both being scum.

That leaves the third situation... which is no one is confirmed. The closest to confirmed is KKB. We might be able to, not necessarily confirm, but determine who is less likely to be town based on how much rage they have now. If I remember correctly, the people who have not used rage are: Albert/Qui, Zd, and Xalxe. Quadz used rage just recently, and depending on how fast scum gain rage, he could certainly be in that list as well. KKB used it before then. Tierce and I used rage around the same time. You (Matt) used rage the earliest, of the people alive.

Under this "theory" the most likely scum are effectively in that order:

More likely scum
Albert/Qui, Zd, Xalxe
Quadz
Tierce
Kinetic
MattP
Less likely scum

If I pulled up exact time stamps I could tell you how likely it is that someone would have the rage and have been able to use rage to help kill Void, but I don't really have that much time.

I'm not so

sure

on my read of Xalxe as you seem to be on some of your reads, but I really think I saw something that was town... I've had a town read on Quadz pretty much all game. Zd I thought was scum for a long time, but right now... I'm pretty sure he's town. There is a chance though he could be scum. I don't feel as strongly about that chance though as I did earlier in the game.

Ironically, under this possibility you're the closest to "confirmed" as possible Matt, but I'll be honest, I feel less sure about you than about Zd/Quadz/Xalxe even.

[Kinetic]

KKB: which is more important: A confirmed town or an not outing a power role?

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, you should judge my PLAY and TONE this game and see that I'm town

Like the only thing I want at this point Kinetic is for you, me and Kanye to just STFU and form a bloc because if we waste a kill on any one of the three of us we're STUPID and deserve to lose anyway

OPEN YOUR EYES MAN

My eyes are open. If you don't remember, I was one of the people actually advocating against your lynch earlier int he game because I wasn't convinced. Post the plan, I felt like your tone was changed to "caught scum", and honestly it made me even more sure of myself, maybe too sure. But it seems like now that you've gotten out of it, you're back to hyper-aggressive Matt. In my eyes, you ARE acting scummy, by your tone and play. Don't tell me WHY I think you're scum, I know why I think its possible. And don't tell me what I'm thinking, because I know what I'm thinking. The issues I have with KKB are different. I don't like his playstyle, granted, but I feel he's town. I'm not one to blindly follow anyone though. That isn't M play style and I would be, in my opinion, working against the town if I didn't do my own independent analysis and come to the conclusions myself. If they agree with your conclusions, all the better.

Frankly, reading Xalxe's posts I'm getting a 50/50 split on him, but I'm still feeling townie vibes. I can't quite explain it, but it's like what Tierce was telling me about Zd earlier. Maybe you need to get off Xalxe for a bit and look at someone else. Come back to him when you have fresh eyes.

[Kinetic]

I have a feeling Xalxe is going to be pushed next. If he ends up scum, I'll sheep you for the rest of the game and just accept I cannot play Mafia anymore and should go back to being a List Mod or something, fair?

[Kinetic]

Been traveling all day. VLA until at least Wednesday.

[Kinetic]

I've been traveling the last couple days. I'll be back, soonish.

[Kinetic]

Give me a couple days, I'm definitely behind here, but it doesn't look like much has happened in my absence. I think a new perspective is exactly what I need for this game.

[Kinetic]

unvote

I need to re-read on Quadz then I think. I feel like I've forgotten more about this game than I know about it right now. Also, I'm still hungover from last night. My top suspects keep getting flipped around, and while I've had quadz on me "I'm pretty fucking sure he's town list" for a while, so far my scum radar has been a mess. I'll re-read on him, and Tierce. Frankly though, of the three you listed Matt, I'm more inclined to believe Tierce is scum than Xalxe or Quadz right now.

[Kinetic]

Alright, I've been reading over the thread a bit more, and I'm convinced that there is probably scum within Quadz/Tierce/Xalxe. Let's start getting this game going again. Matt, you think its quadz or Xalxe, right? KKB thinks it isn't quadz last I read. I'm not really on board with quadz either. Maybe its me, but he's been acting pretty damn town all game long and I can't see him as being scum yet. I really need to read a bit more though before I feel comfortable moving forward on someone. That being said, I'm tentatively ok with looking at those three today as one of the scum. I'd probably support movement on one of them though, or at the very least some pressure.

[Kinetic]

Here I was going to ask the same question... but it appears I'm not alone. I think we were all drained. Perhaps this is another Flay mechanic to get us talking? Or perhaps the a scum ability? I'm not sure...

I'd lynch Tierce because she's incredibly demoralizing and a null read that should be rid of

But since when are you willing to sheep me

I'm not sheeping you. You are going after quadz/Xalxe. While I agree there is probably scum in quadz/Xalxe/Tierce(and frankly, you, if I had to name a fourth), I think its most likely to be Tierce. Quadz I've had a solid town read on all game, Xalxe... there is something I'm holding out on right now. I'm waiting for something so you'll just have to trust me on that for the time being. I'll let you know if that changes on Xalxe though.

[Kinetic]

And I had rage to dump on Yos, which means I did not kill Voidedmafia.

I'll look into the other things, but this, I'm starting to give less and less credence to. If this is the case, the mafia has to two of be Xalxe/KKB/Quiford/LLD if I remember correctly. That means, assuming KKB is confirmed town, it is LLD/Xalxe/Quiford. It certainly could be Qui, I'll look deeper into that, but I'm almost positive it isn't Xalxe. There is still something mucking up things. Otherwise, we should just lynch those three and the game is over.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic stop being coy and explain why Xalxe is town.

No. It is something I've seen that I'm not sure of outside of a mass claim. And I don't want to do that. So for now I'm putting him in my "pretty sure he's town" pool, and won't reveal it unless either myself or Xalxe is highly pressured. It isn't up to that point yet, so I'm not doing that.

[Kinetic]

Votes on Xalxe please.

Rolefishing scum?

[Kinetic]

No, I just think you're full of shit and I assumed that this was based on another of your "theories."

I never said it was based on a theory, you're just trying to make every god damn thing I do look scummy. You know what Zd, I don't even get you. It sucks for me, because I think you're town right now, but I so badly wouldn't mind removing you from this game anyway. You're a nuisance at best, and your actions have been consistently scummy. Isn't it ironic that my "bullshit theory" is the reason I think you're town? If I dropped that and just based it on play you'd be #1 on my scum list still.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, if you're town, it's time for you to start actually paying attention to your own play. You wanted to lynch Yos over LLD, despite KKB soft-claiming role information incriminating her, and attacked KKB over his soft-claim.

If I remember correctly, you were in fact voting for Yos over LLD as well. Obviously, at the time, you agreed that KKB way of going about it wasn't the best. I was sure of my way, and I wanted Yos dead first because as far as I was concerned I had him dead to rights as scum and he is the type of player that if you give him time to squirm he can get out of any noose. Obviously, hindsight is 20/20. KKB never claimed he had something that fully pushed me off of Yos. Add to the fact that YOS was basically calling KKB scum and LLD town... I thought that we probably had two scum there and both were trying to get clear off the other. Frankly, I stand by my decision. It was wrong, but it came from a town mindset as far as I'm concerned.

Now, you are soft-claiming role information that may clear Xalxe.

May

clear him, but also may not. It isn't certain, and it might just be something that I'm seeing that isn't correct. But there is a difference, I'm not saying, Lynch X because I have information that says he's scum, I'm saying, Don't lynch X just yet because I have reason to believe he is town. Big difference.

In the context of what you had to say about KKB when he was soft-claiming information

As explained above, slightly different "soft-claim"

, and the fact that you were protecting scum

That is a misrepresentation. (See I'm using it right because you're arguing that it is a FACT what I was doing, when it was in FACT the opposite) I had LLD in my list of scum, I just had Yos higher if you remember. LLD was going to die with my plan, I just had a stronger case for Yos.

, and directly chainsaw defending flipped scum

This is a misinterpretation. I had LLD on my shortlist of scum, I just had Yos higher on my priority list.

, this shift in stance over whether soft-claiming is appropriate looks like scum motivated cognitive dissonance.

Again, soft claiming to try and get someone lynched = No bueno. Soft claiming to try to keep someone alive, but not reveal everything about both of your rules = town. You're missing the nuance or just ignoring it.

The fact that you are now soft-claiming role information means that this probably isn't worth pursuing now, but you're fucking crazy if you think that I'm going to trust you at this point.

I'm not answering this. Stop rolefishing.

[Kinetic]

fyi the way i went about it would have been just fine if you werent so dense and deadset about your assumptions of the game (you know, assumptions that have lost town the game in every successive wih)

This is a slightly different WiH, and I explained my reasoning behind my reasons. If you would have simply said: I saw LLD kill Void, then there would have been nothing wrong there, I'd have joined and then gotten Yos after. I was more concerned YOU were chainsawwing me off of Yos toward a possible townie. And if LLD had flipped town your soft claiming could have been turned into a myriad of different things. I wasn't being dense as far as I am concerned.

[Kinetic]

That certainly looks like you not pursuing it.

[Kinetic]

vote: Quiford

[Kinetic]

And since my fiance just broke into laughter at the fury I'm tapping the laptop keys with and said that doing so doesn't make me shout louder at the people on the internet, I'm going to pet a pug instead of continuing this.

Rofl.

[Kinetic]

Frankly: I was pretty sure Albert was town, but I agree with Tierce, I loathe behaivior like this as well. The last several posts have been pinging all my scumdar impulses. Can we kill Quiford and then Zd and get all of it out of the game at once? I'd sign on for that!

[Kinetic]

vote:Zd

Scum found, gg.

[Kinetic]

Yo, Matt, KKB, Quadz, vote Zd. He is scum. Ok? Other scum is Qui or Tierce. GG?

[Kinetic]

Moving right along

Vote: Quadz

I read this and raised a singular eyebrow slightly and secretly felt a bit of paranoia but I kept it to myself to not instigate absolute chaos in the thread

I still think Quadz is scum

pedit: Kinetic, I am now rolefishing and asking if this is role related info specifically because you fucked up with me and that other person you said was scum who I already forgot who it was

Not role info. That vote turned me all kinds of wrong ways too. And I'm pretty sure Quadz isn't scum.

[Kinetic]

Matt: I'm like 50/50 on you. Its annoying, I think your scum and I think you're town.

But this is my read on Zd right now, boiled down. IF mafia can hurt/heal during a rage cool down (which according to my PM, demons cannot), THAN Zd is definitely scum. If they cannot (thus are exactly like the town), Zd is definitely town.

However, if Zd is town, Quadz MUST be town as well. Q.E.D., Zd voting Quadz to me is a tell that Zd is scum.

I'm not talking about Xalxe, I'm talking about you Zd. I don't have any role information on you Zd. Nothing to explain.

[Kinetic]

I moved my vote because Quilford seemed townish and onto Quadz because of gut, PoE and a desire to cooperate.

Although its not 100% true that Zdtown = Quadztown, I would say that it as at the very lest, they cannot be scum together. So one coming up scum clears the other. With that also being said, Zd is really was only getting a pass from me because he was being paired with Quadz on the timing issue (and I've viewed quadz as town for a while). If Zd is throwing that out as a reason to view someone as town, as far as I'm concerned, he (zd) is scum.

[Kinetic]

How does that work exactly?

You and Quadz hurt/healed when the scum should have been on rage cooldown from the void kill. You are the closest to "confirmed town" we had before KKB.

IF: scum can hurt/heal while on rage cooldown, as long as they are not on hurt/heal cooldown, than both you and Quadz could have hurt/healed when you did after the void kill and could still be scum.

Note: there is another option I realized while thinking about this just now. If a scum did not participate in the void kill, they could have the same role PM as town and hurt/healed when Zd/Quadz did so. Thus, if we believe that scum have the same powers as town, or they have no rage limit, than it is possible that fewer than 3 people were on the void kill. If the scum team is 3 or less, and they have a rage limit of 5 or less, than all three must have participated in the void kill, thus Zd/Quadz are cleared. If scum are 4 or more, OR, they have no rage limit, OR, they can hurt/heal when on rage cooldown, than Quadz/Zd can be scum. In any event, if one of Zd or Quadz is scum, than the other MUST be town, pretty much.

However: If scum roles are identical to town roles, than quadz and Zd cannot be scum.

Thus: If Zd thinks that Quadz is scum, Zd must believe that scum can hurt/heal during the time after the void kill. THUS, Zd most likely has that knowledge somehow, and is thus scum.

[Kinetic]

No Kinetic. I just accept that it's a possibility.

If its a possibility, and I have to choose between one of quadz and Zd are scum, as far as I'm concerned, you're scummier than quadz.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic moving the goal posts there is scummy as hell.

Scum is mad I caught him?

[Kinetic]

Kinetic you went from arguing that for me to be voting Quadz I'd have to have inside information to just saying the you ind me scummier than Quadz. It's clearly moving the goal posts.

Its an "In any case" thing. It indicates you have information which indicates you and quadz cannot be confirmed town. Your response: I don't know it for sure, but I believe it to be true. Thus, my response, if its true, you're SCUM. You're scum if there is ANY reason for me not to think you're confirmed town.

What of this are you not getting.

The only reason I have not pursued you as scum, despite as far as I was concerned you being the scummiest person in the game was because

I thought you and quadz were pretty much confirmed town.

You giving me reason to believe that neither of you is confirmed town means you're scum in my book. Diescumdie.

[Kinetic]

You moving on to quadz, as scummily as you did it, just reminded me just how scummy you were. If it were anyone else, I probably could have said, "but he's still probaly town". The fact that it was quadz changed a lot in my head. To me, it looked like you momentarily forgot that if quadz can be scum, than you can be scum, which is why scumZd should have been avoiding him, and why TownZd could never see Quadz as scum. I see it as a momentarily lapse in a long game that indicates you are scum. Maybe there is a lot of confirmation bias going on because I really WANT you to be scum after seeing it for a while. But the fact that Matt saw it as well is kind of reaffirming it in my head that it isn't just confirmation bias.

[Kinetic]

You moving on to quadz, as scummily as you did it, just reminded me just how scummy you were. If it were anyone else, I probably could have said, "but he's still probaly town". The fact that it was quadz changed a lot in my head. To me, it looked like you momentarily forgot that if quadz can be scum, than you can be scum, which is why scumZd should have been avoiding him, and why TownZd could never see Quadz as scum. I see it as a momentarily lapse in a long game that indicates you are scum. Maybe there is a lot of confirmation bias going on because I really WANT you to be scum after seeing it for a while. But the fact that Matt saw it as well is kind of reaffirming it in my head that it isn't just confirmation bias.

[Kinetic]

Vote: Kinetic

This is not coming from town. Especially town who pushed Yos' lynch based on incorrect assumptions.

Scumscumscum caught scum, kill the caught scum diescumdie.

[Kinetic]

Townzd response: Oh, you're right, if I'm town, quadz must be town too.

unvote

ScumZd response: You are watching it.

Just so everyone is clear.

[Kinetic]

You are so full of shit.

Scum is mad he's been caught. I'm actually enjoying you breaking down .

[Kinetic]

And I'm getting tired of Zd being in this game. Look at both the PV and Fate lynches. Hell, even look at the Yos lynch. Every time Zd has been on the early wagon, then as SOON as it picks up steam and leads to the hurting to begin, he jumps the fuck off, and blames everyone else on the wagon. He has done this to me three times now. He thinks I'm he scummiest person in this game, despite basically his only town cred coming from an OMGUS move against me, and mechanic discussion that he

doesn't agree or approve of

giving him some confirmation. Well fine, no one wants me to discuss mechanics, lets look at the scummiest person in this game then and remove him from it.

[Kinetic]

despite me being incredibly protown

*cough*

[Kinetic]

despite me being incredibly protown

*cough*

Hey bitch

You have me as 50% town and 50% scum and the only reason you have that scumread on me is because of stupid mechanics and if you say otherwise you're breakin my heart

Not the only reason. In fact, not a reason at all anymore. I had you 100% because of mechanics, but I've never had you 100% town either before that. And it's not my fault your heart is breaking, you're looking for love in all the wrong places. The same situations, just different places.

[Kinetic]

Let it be known, I'm not looking for scum with any mechanic talk anymore, I've learned my lesson from that. Right now, any mechanics discussion will be aimed at finding town, or trying to help confirm town.

[Kinetic]

I've come down with a bit of a stomach virus and may not post very much. Bleh. Quadz is town, please don't kill the townie while I'm recovering in the fetal position. Thanks.

[Kinetic]

I'm hurting and raging quadz tomorrow at 5 sooooo lol at noone responding to me when you've had 10 hours to

Just crawled out of bed to say dont rage, only hurt if must. I want to roll up and die....... (real life, not game).

[Kinetic]

dear kinetic chan pls explain your quadz town read at your leisure tyvm your friend kanye.

Sincerity, early game reads/discussions, mechanical position from void lynch. Pretty much can't be scum unless he is perfect criminal mastermind.

[Kinetic]

dear kinetic chan pls explain your quadz town read at your leisure tyvm your friend kanye.

Sincerity, early game reads/discussions, mechanical position from void lynch. Pretty much can't be scum unless he is perfect criminal mastermind.

Er, not void lynch, when void died. His hurt/heal cd was available after void was shown to be dead even though he "used" it before the void kill happened. Assuming best case scenario, one scum MAYBE could have been that way, and if there was one it was Zd in my book.

[Kinetic]

dear kinetic chan pls explain your quadz town read at your leisure tyvm your friend kanye.

Sincerity, early game reads/discussions, mechanical position from void lynch. Pretty much can't be scum unless he is perfect criminal mastermind.

Er, not void lynch, when void died. His hurt/heal cd was available after void was shown to be dead even though he "used" it before the void kill happened. Assuming best case scenario, one scum MAYBE could have been that way, and if there was one it was Zd in my book.

[Kinetic]

HEAL: quadz
I'm liking Tierce a lot right now. And Matt is losing a lot of credibility in my opinion.

[Kinetic]

HURT: quadz

So Quadz is being useless, there's no counterwagon that anyone is pushing vigorously and I don't think that if he's scum that he's being bussed, so either he's going to flip town or his buddy is staying out of things hoping that somehow he doesn't get killed. I could go either way on this, but I'm sure that I don't want to keep him alive at this point because his giving up sucks, so let's get this over with.

HURT: Quadz

Why are we not raging?

Hey Tierce if we lynch Xalxe today it's a win win for both of us ok????

Quilford buddying the shit out of me is scummy as fuck and OMG someone backtracking out of previous townreads is SUCH A SCUMTELL

The fact that I'm not auto-glorifying that slot til endgame stricly goes against my meta

Ask any fucker from always on reckoning, once I call someone town I glorify them and never backtrack on that read when I'm scum

Hey go look at Name of the Wind where I backtracked on townreads every fucking second

I AM TOWN

FOR THE QUEEN OF META YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MY META

YOU ARE PLAYING A SLOPPY GAME AND ARE USELESS NOISE

EVERYONE SHOULD IGNORE YOU

OMG IM SILENCING A TOWN PLAYER BECAUSE THEY'RE WHITE NOISE

HOLY SHIT SO MANY SCUMTELLS FROM MATT

seriously

fucking

spare

me

VOTE: Quilford

I've thought long and hard about this super important vote

After hurting quadz down to -2 (Matt/Qui/Zd), after receiving some resistance from Tierce Matt radically pulls up, and starts looking for someone else. First Xalxe, then Quiford. The WORST THING IN THE WORLD you can do in this game is start hurting and then pulling up. Yet Matt quickly changed stripes as was willing to bring multiple people below max HP. Frankly, healing in this game is a very bad idea mostly, BECAUSE it spreads hurts around and makes the whole town weaker. Normally I would advise against it, but right now I'm starting to really feel a strong town vibe from Tierce and Matt is looking like shit in my book, meaning my heal on Quadz is the right play right now.

Frankly, his radical pull up and then bargaining onto either Xalxe (who I have a semi-town read on) or Qui (neutral-scum read) is actually making me rethink here.

Vote:Matt

[Kinetic]

Meant to quote the Qui hurt too so I had all three hurts on the board there.

[Kinetic]

Add to that, Matt's move onto Qui makes no sense based on what he has been saying all. game. long. ... Moving onto someone who he had as a pure town read, who was SUPPORTING him on his push onto a scum read, makes absolutely no sense in my opinion right now from his perspective.

[Kinetic]

What is the current totals? 3 votes on Matt, 4 on Quadz? Or has that changed?

[Kinetic]

I'm getting even more sure that Matt is scum.

[Kinetic]

I'm getting even more sure that Matt is scum.

You know nothing about my playstyle

You should, like, take 1 hour out of your life to examine my meta and realize you're completely wrong

I have never, and will never, use meta. It rarely ever is useful in my book, and frankly when someone says "This is what I do as town, check my meta" I instantly think "This person is trying to act like they do as town, they must be scum". At best meta is null to me, and your insistence on it frankly is scummy to me. For me, play speaks for itself. And right now you're playing like scum.

[Kinetic]

Zd is scum and I'm not surprised that he'll dig a nuanced discussion up and label it a contradiction? Perhaps it was a bit of an overstatement to say I hate meta defenses at all times. What I hate is "I play bad all the time as town, I'm playing bad now, obviously I'm town, look at my other games." That type of meta is scummy as fuck. Essentially what Matt is doing. Using meta to point out specifics of a person's playstyle, or knowing how someone plays over a long, long period (As it is with Albert and me, we've been in literally dozens of games together, over a period of five years), and feeling they are playing similarly to that is another thing. Also, meta discussions in early game are much different than the same discussions 50 pages later. Saying now "well I'm obviously town because of something I did in another game" is scummier on page 85 than on page 35.

Is it a bit of a contradiction. Yea, I overstated how I feel about meta in my last post, and that leads to a bit of a contradiction. Am I surprised at all that Zd is the one who is bringing it up? No. Zd has had a hard on for me all game long, he's scum, and he's sticking to this 'read' on me through all evidence otherwise. He is now cherry picking to support said 'read'. Even if I didn't think he was scum, its bad town play at best, and shouldn't be taken with anything but a grain of salt.

[Kinetic]

So basically, self-meta bugs you, but meta-on-others does not?

Bugs me a lot more, yes. Self meta, defining your own reactions to someone is better. Frankly, though, it isn't really good either, but its more acceptable early game when there isn't much more to go on, than late game when there is a lot more. The same argument by me now would be scummy, or at least, a lot scummier than 50 pages ago.

[Kinetic]

Basically, using meta as a defense of self is worst. Using it as a defense of others is a bit better. Using it as an attack is best. But of all, they are better to be used early game rather than later.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic is full of shit. He's refusing to investigate MattP's meta on the grounds that he has never and will never use meta, which is obviously bullshit. He used it on Albert and he asked others to go and check out MattP's meta. That does not sound like someone who thinks that meta is at best null.

I'm not going to spend 10 hours researching Matt's games. That is ridiculous, and I have never found it to be useful. I was talking to Matt specifically about a game we all three were in, that JUST ended, and was VERY recent. That was highly relevant at the time. If I made the same argument right now, it would be highly suspicious in my opinion and probably scummy. Saying murkily "this is how I am" is not a meta defense I believe is useful.

On top of that, he's now saying that he thinks that using your town meta as a defense is scummy as fuck, but he didn't complain when Tierce did it.

Except... for a while I had Tierce high on my likely scum list for a while until recently, and I did not use Tierce's "meta defense" as a bonus for him. You're mad that I didn't say "that's bullshit" then, yet, I basically did, just not in so many words.

Kinetic, what is the evidence that you are town?

I'm not playing that game. My evidence is there in my play, the fact that you are the only one who doesn't see it is obvious. You're scum, trying to get one of the most town players in the game some suspicion is good for you and your team. I'm not complaining because, frankly, its the games when everyone is convinced I'm conftown that I get killed by the scum. But your entire mentality is pretty much based on an early game OMGUS that you pretty much have been tunneling the entire time. It doesn't mean anything, and every time you try to bring more, your bias is obvious.

[Kinetic]

- You're ignoring all the evidence that I am town.
- What evidence?
- I'm not telling.

That isn't how I play. I don't think "Oh, I'm doing this to look town". I play, I look for scum, and I let my play speak for itself. I couldn't really point to "this is townish" because that is basically going against how I play. I'll make a move that looks scummy if the end result is to catch scum. Its not "I'm not telling" so much that it is "you're ignoring anything that doesn't fit into your perfect puzzle that makes me scum". How about this: name one thing I've done that is town you consider townish.

If you have questions about why I did something, I'm more than happy to explain it, but I'm not going to play this game where I grovel and try to prove to you I'm town. There is nothing I can bring up that would prove that to you, you've already made up your mind, so why bother.

Also the fact that he's suggesting that being suspicious of him is a scum tell boggles the mind.

That isn't what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting YOU are scum and that your suspicions are forced.

[Kinetic]

town

, that

you consider townish.

EBWOP: Forgot a word.

[Kinetic]

I'm starting to think Zd is trying to derail it. I'm not moving my vote off Matt.

[Kinetic]

Okay, so you don't go and research other games for meta and only use your own experience. That's fair, and I'm not about to ask you to read FaraNexus's ADwD game. But in that game, Zdenek was trying to lynch Town for AGES. (Read: from the moment he replaced in, on Day TWO, to Day SIX--I then died Night Six--he was tunneling on me

all that time

. From me he went to Thor. And from Thor he went to Minimum. All of us were Town and he never actually seemed to suspect scum on any sort of regular basis.)

So no, it's not a scumtell, he's just that bad and creates those tunnels that will inevitably end up in the wrong person being lynched over and over and over. Scum won't kill him and we can't spare the lynch.

Maybe, and that's certainly reason for you to stay away from him, but at the same time he's hurting the town. In that game he just had a vote, in this one he can do real damage if he is left to his own devices in end game. I don't want a won game to be lost because he decides to go rogue, and I want it dealt with sooner rather than later.

[Kinetic]

What are votes right now? (4) Matt [Me, Quadz, Xalxe, Tierce], (2) Quadz [KKB, Qui], (1) Kin [Zd], (1) Qui[Matt]? Although there is 4, I'd like KKB to check in before any hurting begins. Preferably I would like 5 too, since Quadz was recently at 4, and things are getting closer, a solid majority would be nice so there isn't a deviation once its decided.

[Kinetic]

In post 2125, Kinetic wrote:
I'm starting to think Zd is trying to derail it. I'm not moving my vote off Matt.

I asked you a question Kinetic.

Congrats. I asked you a question too. A much easier one too. You didn't answer that. I'm done with your derailing, yes I think you're scum. Hell, yes, it even goes against one of my theories, but as you've said time and again, my theories have been wrong. Your actions have been consistently scummy. But if you notice, this WHOLE DAMN GAME I've tried to find reasons to think you're town, but you keep giving me reasons to think you're scum. You haven't ever given me the benefit of the doubt. You can't even name one time you think I was being townish.

That's the whole point, you've got bias and blinders on so bad that you don't even realize it. I'm not asking you name one thing that I did that was townish for reasons to say "Hey, that means I'm town", its for the simple fact that NO ONE, no matter how bad they are at scum, can do EVERYTHING scummy. Even by damn blind stupid luck SOMETHING they do ends up at the very least looking townish. But if you can't name one thing like that, then you are forcing everything you see to be scummy, and confirming that with everything you see.

You say you asked me a question, well my question that you ignored WAS the answer. That is why you're scum, because you can't name one thing about me that is townish, which means you're either a) ignoring it (anti-town) or b) purposefully disregarding it (because you're scum).

[Kinetic]

SHOULD I BE LYNCHED I ASK AS A PERSONAL FAVOR THAT XALXE BE KILLED NEXT, PLEASE SHEEP THIS KNOWING IM TOWN YEAH BLABLABLA IM NOT ON HIM RIGHT NOW BUT IDGAF KILL HIM NEXT. I WILL BE RAGE DUMPING ON HIM BEFORE I DIE AND HURTING HIM, BRINGING HIM DOWN 4 HEALTH AND SPEEDING UP THE PROCESS OF HIS DEATH. DO NOT DARE FUCKING HEALING HIM

If I were on the fence, this would convince me you're scum. Assuming, for this little thought exercise that you're town and...
Xalxe is scum: The rest of the town still have to decide to kill Xalxe following your death. Your raging means nothing.
Xalxe is town: You simply set up an easy scum kill and the town loses two townies.

Further: Assuming the town decides not to kill Xalxe and heal him, you're weakening the whole of the town to heal him back.

No matter what, you're making an anti-town move by choosing someone and raging them. You rage anyone and you're dead. Period. That goes for anyone else in this game.

[Kinetic]

One thing yo've done that is townish is wanting to make sure that there's no willy-nilly hurting or raging.

Now answer my question.

I answered your question above, in explaining why you couldn't answer my question. Name one other scum besides me in your world. Name anything you've done in this game. Everything you've done in this whole game can be reduced to: Zd has attacked Kinetic. The ONLY thing you've done of note is be a thorn in my side. You've tunneled me for 85 pages. The only reason you're not dead is because Tierce is convinced this makes you town because you're an idiot. Not because you're good, but because according to him, TownZd is fucking useless. Do you understand that? If this is harsh, it is intended to be. I'm done trying to show you you're wrong. You can just figure out how wrong you were when this is over and you had absolutely no contribution to helping the town win.

That's why its forced, because you have absolutely nothing else. (These are rhetorical questions, answering them is unnecessary)

[Kinetic]

It is pretty clear that one of Zd/Matt needs to die today.

Can we just fucking pick one and kill it, please?

We wait until KKB returns at least from his sickness. I want his input. The fact that the 4 that were voting you and the 4 voting Matt currently has no one in common bothers me a little bit. If we still are there after KKB returns we will have no choice, perhaps, but to move forward, but we can await KKB to get over his sickness. Hopefully he will check in today.

And if we had to choose between Matt and Zd, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer Zd. Maybe. I'll have to think about it.

[Kinetic]

You have requested replacement. You are effectively out of the game. Continuing posting will probably cause mod action.

[Kinetic]

You have requested replacement. You are effectively out of the game. Continuing posting will probably cause mod action.

For some reason, my browser didn't load your revocation post. Ignore this.

[Kinetic]

Quadz, why as scum do you think I would have derailed your lynch.

Except... that isn't what happened. Matt derailed the Quadz push on his own through his actions. You jumping ship after Matt basically soiled does make sense from a scum perspective though. Saying it like you said it seems to make less sense no matter the perspective. But moving off a failed push, that you knew was failed, onto your pretty much only target all game. That seems like a move made in comfort because it wouldn't look suspicious. (I've been at Kinetic all game, nothing to see here guys.)

[Kinetic]

Tierce, in a hypothetical world where I flipped town, what's the first thing you'd say

"Flay, you sure?"

Its hypothetical because when he flips it won't be town.

[Kinetic]

Its hypothetical because when he flips it won't be town.

I don't like that you picked at my wording

It makes me like you a lot less

Aw, I thought it was cute and you'd appreciate it. It's ok, I still love you even if you are scum.

[Kinetic]

kinetic, you still think xalxe is town right? believe u said it was role related? are you comfortable elaborating on this?

tierce what is your op on xalxe?

Its not related to my role, per se, but it is role related. I don't want to give it completely away though. I'd rather wait until I see how many people commit to going after Xalxe. I'd say... about 65-70% that he's town?

[Kinetic]

Over 24 hours and no one else has posted. What the fuck?

[Kinetic]

Over 24 hours and no one else has posted. What the fuck?

I have a fun game.

Let's start hurting Matt.

I'm tempted to, if only to get KKB off his ass.

KKB, you're on deadline. Participate before the end of the day in some meaningful way or we move on without you.

[Kinetic]

Matt first, please. There is a reason.

[Kinetic]

That... wasn't what I was expecting...

Why are there claims different if they're the same type of angel, first, and second... that isn't what I thought Xalxe was. I was expecting him to be an Oph. Which, because LLD was and Oph, and because I doubted that scum would have two of them, would pretty much confirm him town.

[Kinetic]

If it isn't clear now, I am pretty sure that any other Oph in the game would be town. It wasn't something I could just reveal willy-nilly, because then scum would just claim Oph if they knew that, and it would be like a doctor claim now. Further, I couldn't do much other than hint that I thought Xalxe was town, and not say why before he claimed because I wasn't 100% positive he was an Oph, and I didn't want to tip my hand in case he wasn't, and he was scum, and my saying so would cause him to claim Oph. Additionally, once I said as much, any future Oph claims are now much more suspicious and less likely to be believed, so I was hoping to have at least one other confirmed before revealing this. A few of Xalxe's posts made me think it was him.

[Kinetic]

I'm not sure. One of those claims is off though. I can say I don't have an abiding conviction that he is town anymore though.

[Kinetic]

Well, we can't determine Void's hp, but let me see if I can determine Fate's total. Sec.

[Kinetic]

Fate would have had 9 HP: Assuming Yos and Matt were telling the truth that they both used 3 rage on him. Additionally, all Dukes previously, even in the sample PM, were either Seraphs or Arels, which if I remember were higher choirs of angels in previous games.

With that being said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis, while it clearly shows Marquis being below Duke, Prince, which Void was, appears to be about equal with Duke. Matt's claim though, on both counts, seems to be the one that is off here, not Xalxe's.

[Kinetic]

And with that all being said, I'm more cautious about drawing conclusions from that. Flay has been messing with me all game, so they could both be telling the truth. If either is lying though, it would appear that it is Matt in my opinion, as his claim doesn't line up with the rest of the game so far.

[Kinetic]

do you guys believe that scum do not have fakeclaims and thus would need to make up their demon name?

No. What I said was, if you compare the claims, they claim the same but are different. What conclusion do you draw from that? It sounds to me more like someone is lying about something. So, yes, even the names are a bit off there and that might be something to question. Maybe someone is lying about their type of angel or something.

But see:

And with that all being said, I'm more cautious about drawing conclusions from that. Flay has been messing with me all game, so they could both be telling the truth. If either is lying though, it would appear that it is Matt in my opinion, as his claim doesn't line up with the rest of the game so far.

I was thinking/typing that before I saw those three posts. Its an anomaly, but I'm not sure exactly what it means yet. Ignoring it though, is just as scummy, if not worse, than claiming to know what it means.

I'm starting to think mass claim might be the way to go as well. But I'd like some actual opinions from you KKB first. Do you think Xalxe is scum now? Do you think Matt is town still? Do you think Matt could be scum here?

P-Edit: His HP is different than the two other Cherub claims/validation (We know Fate was 9, if Yos [town] and Matt [unknown] used 3 rage on him), Xalxe claimed 9 HP, Matt claimed 10.

Xalxe's is in line with the previous knowledge available in the game. And although I wouldn't put it past Flay to have the HP be variations on the same angel/demon-type, it has never happened before so I'm not sure about it.
H
is name is different as well. All Dukes have been of an angel/demon-type that was more powerful than Cherubs.

Both of those things make it more likely that Matt is actually an Arel/Seraph, and claiming to be a Cherub. But I'm not going so far as to say that's the case because, as I said before that isn't a sure thing at all. His claim just doesn't line up.

[Kinetic]

I'd also like Kinetic to explain how Xalxe is town is related to his role.

I did. Can you not read?

[Kinetic]

The names being different isn't really THAT big of a change. Frankly, all that have been claimed so far have been listed here: http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/A ... tic_Demons, and I'd be willing to bet they're all here. At the least, I don't think names would be tied to role. Although Duke has only been used for Seraph/Arels so far, both Yos and Fate were both Counts and different types of demons.

The HP difference is more questionable, imo. But at the same time, it isn't something that is concrete enough, on its own, to indicate town/scum. Cherubs could have varying HP/rage maxes, which would explain why Flay didn't spoil all the demon types in this game like he has done previously.

I'm beginning to think mass claim won't actually solve anything...

[Kinetic]

Maybe not. Why did you think he was an ophan?

A few of Xalxe's posts made me think [he was an Oph].

Also, Kinetic, why did you want Xalxe to claim first?

Matt first, please. There is a reason.

If you mean why did I want Matt to claim first:

that isn't what I thought Xalxe was. I was expecting him to be an Oph. Which, because LLD was and Oph, and because I doubted that scum would have two of them, would pretty much confirm him town.

Additionally, once I said as much, any future Oph claims are now much more suspicious and less likely to be believed, so I was hoping to have at least one other confirmed before revealing this.

I wasn't 100% sure Xalxe was Oph, but I thought he was. I wanted Matt to go first because on the chance I was wrong, and Matt claimed Oph and Xalxe didn't, than the same logic

could

have possibly applied to Matt. I'd have been suspicious still, because I hadn't noticed any reason to believe Matt was an Oph previous to this. Additionally, because I expected Xalxe to claim Oph, I didn't want him to claim first, and than have scumMatt pick up on that as the reason I had Xalxe as town in my book and then claim it as well. I wouldn't have believed him, but I'm sure someone might have.

That was all there in my previous posts. Your reading comprehension is just as bad now as it has always been.

[Kinetic]

/facepalm Until you learn how to read, I'm not answering any more of your questions. I've explained everything twice now. I said my information on Xalxe was "role-related", as in, I thought I knew his role. I never said it had anything to do with my role. That is you role-fishing, continuously and unashamed. I didn't want to dissuade you from thinking that earlier mainly because I was trying to throw at least some cover so the scum would not also find out. And I'm growing tired of explaining things over and over to you. I'm back to ignoring you. I will not participate in you trying to figure out my role. If you want to know it, either ask and stop beating around the bush or support a mass claim. I'm not claiming just because you want to know though.

[Kinetic]

Posts of Xalxe's please.

Go fuck yourself, please.

[Kinetic]

I am so surprised [/sarcasm]

[Kinetic]

Flay

, shit, I'm sorry, can you fix that tag up there. I think my sarcasm button is broken.

[Kinetic]

Let me say it clearly. Explaining is tantamount to claiming. I'm. Not. Claiming. Stop. Role. Fishing. Scum. He can paint it however he wants, if he wants me to claim he has to come out and SAY THAT. He has to say Kinetic: I want you to claim. And he needs to take all the fucking slack that entails. I've been trying to be coy about it because I don't want to give out free information to the scum, but now let's fucking do it. You want me to claim Zed? I've explained everything else to your satisfaction, beyond any fucking reasonable standard. Do you really think I don't have an explanation for this? Yet, while I don't tell you that explanation, it forces you to chew on the idea and think of every worst case scenario for your scum team, maybe you have to kill Kinetic, what is he hiding so hard that he doesn't want scum to know? Hell, maybe its nothing, but you won't know unless you make me claim.

I've said what I am going to say on this matter.

Here's a good question: What do I, as scum, have to gain by protecting someone I think is a Oph? Someone who can quite literally find the scum if they rage? Someone who was under suspicion, and if I hadn't intervened would have probably been lynched? I wouldn't have even needed to push Xalxe, it was all right fucking there. All I had to do was not do anything and he's dead.

ScumZed has two very important motivations for pushing this. 1) If scumZed is with scumMatt, it takes pressure off the Matt wagon. 2) ScumZed knows I've been hiding something from him, and he wants to know what it is. He all but going suicidal against me to figure what it is. He voted Xalxe

multiple

times, not because he thinks Xalxe is scum, but because of me. And as soon as the claims are done, he drops the charade and unvotes him. He never had any intention to push Xalxe. If anything, it actually makes me wonder if Zed and Xalxe are scum together, and Zed was only putting Xalxe in any trouble to get me to reveal why I thought Xalxe is town. At this point I don't know how I feel about Xalxe, but I'm pretty damn solid in my belief that Zed is scum. 3)

Every single time I've said "I will explain when it is necessary", I have done so when the time was right. I have explained. And when I say its better for the town for me to not explain something, well by now I should have earned the right to be taken at my word on that. Yes, I made a mistake mid-game with Yos, but that wasn't me saying "this isn't the right time to explain", that was when I explained and was wrong. I'm not above being wrong. It happens. That is more reason for me to be cautious about what I give away. In my opinion, if I'm right all the time there is something much more wrong about that. Since then I've been more careful, and for the most part haven't been using set up speculation in order to try and find a guilty. I learned my lesson there.

Hell, even when I was saying I thought Xalxe was town, I was giving percentages between 50% and 75%. I wasn't perfectly sure of anything, whether he was Oph, whether that meant he was definitely town. But my gut said both were good conclusions. I still think that any remaining Ophs are probably town, that seems a good deduction, but hell if we can trust any Oph claims now. I was wrong on Xalxe being one.

If ScumZed wants more, the only way is mass claim or by convincing enough people that somehow I'm the scum here, and forcing me to claim that way. I am done with him, and I'm getting angry that anyone is even giving him the time of day.

[Kinetic]

Here's a good question: What do I, as scum, have to gain by protecting someone I think is a Oph? Someone who can quite literally find the scum if they rage? Someone who was under suspicion, and if I hadn't intervened would have probably been lynched? I wouldn't have even needed to push Xalxe, it was all right fucking there. All I had to do was not do anything and he's dead.

Zd, answer.

[Kinetic]

HEAL: tierce

I think we need to pick someone soon. I have a feeling this might happen again if we don't get to hurting. I think we should institute a deadline. Although I'd prefer 5 votes, and someone of the other four to come over, I say we start hurting at four votes if we haven't decided by the time heals come off cooldown. That gives us a bit over 24 hours to decide.

Quick VC

(4) Matt (Tierce, Xalxe, Kinetic, Quadz)
(3) Xalxe (Matt, Qui, KKB)
(1) Kinetic (Zd)

[Kinetic]

And now Matt wastes his heal...

Can we kill the scum now?

[Kinetic]

Quotes fixed.

What if xalxe raged himself for wifom? Huh? After my heal goes through you can suck it

HEAL: zdenek


My hp would go down anyway proving I didn't rage xalxe

But lol at your bullshit

Who said anything about you raging Xalxe? Did you rage him?

Guilty mind much?

And we don't know exactly what will happen if you heal someone at max. You might waste your cooldown, you might just go down an HP. I think all we said was, you wasted your heal. I was thinking that, as scum, you did that so that everyone stayed relatively low while still technically trying to look town.

[Kinetic]

I messed up the php in the above, that should be two separate quotes.
Fixed.

[Kinetic]

I antagonize my suspects. It generally gets a lot of information out of them, especially when they get frustrated. The problem with you, is you're so practiced at it from what I've seen, I really have stopped believing a lot of it. You've been frustrated this whole game, you post drunk whenever you feel like it, you constantly use dramatics to try and overpush your point. Every single one of your defenses is "I'm so fucking not scum, why can't you see that".

Not only that, but what you said isn't even true. I've had you on my neutral list for a while frankly because while you haven't done a lot of things "bad" in the game, at the same time, it feels like you've barely done anything good. Its only been recently that you've started to look more scummy to me, and that was based solely on your play. And you've not done anything to make me think otherwise since then. AtE can only bridge so much of a gap from a lack of substance.

Eventually, it starts to look scummy. And at this point, I feel like you need to die to move this game forward. In my opinion your death is the best way to find scum. Either you're scum, which is what I think, or it should open up who is most likely scum. If you really are town, your time would be better spent explaining WHY your suspects are scum, not just blindly saying X AND Y ARE SCUM OMG KILL THEM NOT ME IM SO TOWN PLEASE BELIEVE ME OMG WHY ARE YOU SO FUCKING DUMB I HATE YOU NOW LOVE ME PLEASE.

That really doesn't help at all.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, aside from me, who's scum if MattP is town?

If Matt is town... I'd say the remaining scum are in [Xalxe|Zed|Qui|Tierce]. If its two scum remaining, I'd say either Zed/Tierce or Zed/Xalxe, but I suppose Zed/Qui isn't out of the picture. I feel its pretty likely not KKB/Quadz. In order, at this moment, I'd say Zed(for many reasons)>>Tierce>Xalxe>Qui>>>>Quadz>KKB.

If Matt is scum, I think the last scum is either Zed or Qui.

[Kinetic]

I'm not saying it will save your life, and frankly, it probably won't. But it couldn't hurt.

[Kinetic]

That was to Matt's post on the last page... I missed an ENTIRE new page was started.

[Kinetic]

Actually, make a case against me

Before I die I'd like to hear why you're voting me exactly

Because despite being asked for you to make cases on your scum reads, you instead ask the people attacking you for not making cases to make cases on you.

[Kinetic]

Its not being a cog in the machine Matt, this is basically my main issue with you. You put this argument that "the people attacking me aren't doing enough", that some how their attacks are not sufficient. When the reason they are so strong is because

you have done nothing but say you're town and use AtE

. Explain why Quadz is scum. Explain why Tierce is scum. You refuse to live up

to your own standards

. That is why

you

are scum. You're the one on the wire, no one else. If you can't see that, then you deserve your fate.

[Kinetic]

This time on Matt throws a hissy fit...

[Kinetic]

You see, if Matt/Zed went after Tierce or Xalxe after all their belly aching, I could maybe be convinced to look at one of those. But quadz is town. Vote stays where it is.

[Kinetic]

Whoa! Holy fuck, have you all gone fucking crazy. I decide to go take one fucking nap and I come back to the thread in absolute chaos.

[Kinetic]

So how about you two actually step up and comment on events? Especially you, Quilford. Goddammit, there's not an inkling of visible effort to you, step it up. :/

I'm trying to figure things out right now. All this raging and hurting is NOT a good idea. Matt looks like he's dead, that's good, but now we need to determine what that means. At this point I think we need to STOP and figure out where everyone is. No more hurting and raging. Let's determine where we are, who is alive, and move on from there.

[Kinetic]

I give up. I really don't know why you play Mafia.

Kinetic, I know you're around. Feedback on what happened with Matt, please.

PEdit: No, he's not dead. Read my posts. I said I Raged him (without doing so) to see how he reacted, and the reaction hasn't convinced me it'd be a Town flip.

I'm preparing for class so I don't have a lot of feedback. My first thoughts: Xalxe jumped the gun, then Matt reacted like scum and went off. Quadz is town. Period. If he has taken a lot of damage I want to heal him, but I'm not sure if that's the right call with so much damage on the field.

Matt needs to flip. I'm pretty sure he's scum, but if he isn't we need to know now so we can redirect. As I see it:

Matt is scum-> Kill Zed, game over.
Matt is town-> Either Xalxe or Tierce are scum. Or both. Zed or Qui is the last remaining scum of one of Xalxe/Tierce is town.

[Kinetic]

if

one of Xalxe/Tierce is town.

EBWOP

[Kinetic]

But maybe this is the time to direct rage. Have people who have rage use it on our suspects. The timing is perfect, we stop the scum from having any end game shenanigans with their rage, and if we're lucky we can even get scum to rage on their scum buddies to "prove" they're town. We can test who has rage too.

[Kinetic]

matt is still town zzz. doubt scum will ragedump to finish him since kinetics got such a hardon for dead matt.

Can you fucking participate. You are the worst fucking "confirmed" town ever. You've been coasting on one play all game long. Give us some god damned content. Who are your scum reads, who are your town reads. SOMETHING.

[Kinetic]

Fuck you Zed scum, like I've known all the fuck along. If we had killed him well before this this game would be over. I told you Quadz was town. I fucking miss a couple days because I have to work and you go and rage kill him simply because you think he's linked to me. Don't be coy Zed, we both know you're scum and its about time you stopped hiding it.

vote:Zed

[Kinetic]

Tierce, Qui, Xalxe, if you're town you'll help finish off Zed. Remember, Quadz was basically confirmed town, and the one who knew that best was Zed. They were in the same shoes and Zed killed him anyway. He has to be scum. There is no town motivation for that flip.

[Kinetic]

No one hurts until we all vote... I have an idea... Xalxe, Tierce, Qui, vote in your next post. Pick a side, Zed or Kinetic.

[Kinetic]

And just so we're putting everything on the table:

Okay so LLD is confscum can I kill it yet?

Anyway: I have 4/4 rage. I have not ragedumped because I haven't been following. I'm willing to prove this by ragedumping on LLD, or anyone else for that matter, just say the word and don't be named Matt because I don't like the way you're leading town around by the nose.

My vote for who goes next falls into the group of Tierce/MattP/ABR in no particular order, and before I make a decision I'mma need to look at a few things.

Gonna go grab a couple Tierce posts to respond to 'cause she talked directly at me. Fully caught up.

That is the post that made me think that Xalxe was an Oph and/or town. Claiming 4/4 rage. The reason that has to do with my role is because I have 5 rage max. I figured that to have less than 5 rage meant you probably had another ability. I assumed Oph, but I was wrong. Even so, I felt since that post that Xalxe had a good chance of being town.

I'm not 100% still on Xalxe, but I'm pretty sure he's still town. As I've said for a long portion of this game.

KKB - He's the weakest confirmed town I've ever seen, but he's pretty much confirmed. Nothing to really say there.

Tierce/Qui is probably Zed's scum buddy... I'm not sure which one yet.

Zed is fucking scum. He has been all fucking game. The ONLY reason that Zed is alive is because of Tierce. If anything, I think that puts some pressure on Tierce too. If I had to choose the scum team right now, I think It would be Tierce/Zed. But its either that or Zed/Qui.

[Kinetic]

I'm not voting until I reread the game and you can all go screw yourselves if you think you can pressure me to do so now. The fire bird will be busy for the next two days--I want to chill down from this game today, and I'll be out tomorrow.

That is the post that made me think that Xalxe was an Oph and/or town. Claiming 4/4 rage. The reason that has to do with my role is because I have 5 rage max. I figured that to have less than 5 rage meant you probably had another ability. I assumed Oph, but I was wrong. Even so, I felt since that post that Xalxe had a good chance of being town.

Uhm, since when are roles balanced regarding each other? Why should, say, a vanilla role have more HP than an Ophan? I know that previous games had Ophanim be weaker than some other roles (iirc), but it does not follow that "lower Rage than you -> PR -> Ophanim", especially since Cherubim are, you know,

typically the weakest folks around here

.

This is just pointing out bad logic, not calling you scum. But wtf? Mafia roles are not balanced between them and PRs don't necessarily have lesser abilities than vanilla roles.


(My skills as scum would have to have

skyrocketed

from my last scum game for me to be scum here. Get real.)

Orphs in every previous game were much weaker than anyone else because of their ability. Seraphs were more powerful, and had more HP. Their power came sort of with the ability. As I saw it, if you had an ability, you either were A) more powerful, or B) less powerful than "vanilla". I suspected the 4 rage was something that Orphs had. Thats why I said Iwa s 50-75% sure he was an Oph, but never 100%.

[Kinetic]

Tierce, your trying to wiggle out of a vote is noted. Make a stand. There is a reason why I want you to do it NOW.

[Kinetic]

No Zed, its simple logic. Simple logic that you have yet to grasp and continue to ignore.

You and Quadz both were in the same position. Neither of you, but the logic of the game, could have been part of the void kill unless when scum rage it did not start their hurt timer. Its simple as that.

Now, that is solid logic. Nothing breakable there. The only way to believe otherwise is if SOMEHOW you believe that to not be true. You must have some knowledge that it isn't true. Just rejecting it because "lol kinetic" isn't a reason.

That reason can only come from one place, you being scum. You knew that Quadz would never back you because he believed me. So you had to kill him.

But you wrap yourself in the same cloak. You say "you can't be scum because of my theory". You can't have it both ways. By killing Quadz you lose that protection.

There are only two reasons why anyone thinks you're town. Two. Tierce and that theory. You ignored it to kill Quadz. That shows you how much you believe that theory. You have undeniable proof in your mind that scum MUST be able to hurt/heal after raging, that you took that as reason to kill Quadz. Don't you see, your killing quadz has sealed the game for you scum. It PROVES you must be scum.

[Kinetic]

And Tierce I want you to decide because I think you're scum that would rather pussy foot right now instead of choose a side. You're doing exactly what scum would do right now, and that doesn't sit well with me. You calling it out that its scummy doesn't make it less so. That is why I want you and Xalxe to take a stand. Now. The more you think about it the more time it gives you to try and choose the "right" choice to survive as scum.

In fact, while I'm pretty sure Zed is scum, I'ms tarting to think you are as well. All this "meta" defense is quite convenient. You apparently didn't accept it when Matt was slinging that game, but suddenly you're on the chopping block and its gospel.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, the setup is closed, we don't know that scum's kill works the same as ours. If you believe that it does, then you should conclude that I am town and that we were dumb to kill to Quadz, not doing that implies that you don't actually believe your theory, so the idea that I should] be scum for not believing it is fucking stupid.

You're being purposefully dense. I know why of course, you're scum. And just because a set up is closed doesn't meanthat I can't break it.

Breaking closed set ups is kind of my thing.

My theory: Town works like X, if scum works like X, than Zed and Quadz can't be scum unless a) scum doesn't work like X, or b) they didn't take part in the void kill.
Zed then kills quadz.
Visavi, Zed either a) knows scum does not work like X, or b) is the worst townie in existence.
Visavi, Zed is scum.

[Kinetic]

No dice, Kinetic. Not going to put down a vote I'm not sure of, that's not how I work. Deal with it.

Make SOME sort of commitment. ANYTHING.

[Kinetic]

KKB, Xalxe, Qui, will someone join me, I really hate feeling like I'm just having a discussion with two scum. -.-;

[Kinetic]

I think, with the game this close, we need 4 votes to hurt someone. Its too easy for two scum to get one townie on their side and then start hurting. No hurts until 4 votes, so at least two townies have to be tricked if scum are pushing together.

[Kinetic]

Xalxe's town for sure.

Glad you've finally come around to what I've been saying all game when it suits you -.-;

So that leaves, Tierce, Qui and Zed. Like my vote on Zed right now.

[Kinetic]

I have different reasons than you.

In fact, your's went out the window when Xalxe didn't claim Ophan.

You have been calling Xalxe scum all fucking game, and in the eleventh hour, suddenly when you realize that Xalxe might be your key to winning the game, Xalxe is town in your book. I don't buy it.

[Kinetic]

Marquis Sabnach, Fallen Arel, been at Gasparilla all day. Going to go take a nap now, yup. Who's left? Qui and KKB? Qui first then.

[Kinetic]

Tierce, how do you have max rage?

[Kinetic]

I doubt its 11:2. 10:3 seems right. Honestly this game seems more like an old game, Texas Standoff or something. Everyone had a daykill. Can't remember the rest of the details though.

I wrote something up about KKB, then realized something... I've c+p-ed it into a notepad until KKB answers Zed's question.

[Kinetic]

Actually, no. Before Zdenek claims anything, I want kanye's fullclaim.

I support this.

[Kinetic]

That was back when I still didn't know a lot about the game. The 1v1 was one of the ideas, I admit, but I didn't want to give away that was there because there were also some countermeasures that early in the game that would prevent scum from not claiming their true role. One of the things I noticed in previous games was that scum had a lot of Seraphs. In WiH2, there were 4 seraphs, 2 of which were scum. I was kind of expecting 1-3 this game, one of which would be scum. I'm wondering if instead of Seraphs though, town just got a lot of Arels. But then again, I don't know if anything can be truly gleaned from the claims.

The Fog of War really helps early mass claims. As the game went on though, I was able to deduce a lot about several of the other roles, but everything I learned kept telling me mass claim probably wouldn't find anything and would at best just help the scum. Hence why I never fully backed the plan throughout the game, or I might throw it out there to see who bit, but didn't want to commit on it. I was trying to see if maybe scum were thinking along the same lines and might slip up there.

A lot of early mass claim plans hinge on scum being unable to effectively stop them and being forced to claim a lot closer to their actual role, if they even have a fake claim, than they probably want to. Fake claims have this problem with not being very good through out a game, and being much better at the point they're made, but not much later. It also helps in the end game if the mass claim happened earlier because it sticks people to claims much beforehand. But, as I've said, I didn't go through with it because I felt like the benefits to the town weren't as strong as I would have wanted them to make up for the risk to town. I made a lot of plans early game, and some helped a little bit, but the nature of this game didn't let them help as much as I hoped.

[Kinetic]

So, KKB is being difficult. Here is what I C+Ped before...

I've had my suspicions of KKB for a while, but I can't think of a good reason to sacrifice LLD. Add to the fact that it appears that KKB is an Oph, and I can't imagine this game having two scum Ophs, unless they are on different scum teams. I think it's pretty clear that KKB cannot be on a scum team with LLD, if he is an Oph. The only way KKB is scum in my book is if he's third party scum. In that case...... I could see this as 11:2:1...

However, if KKB is not an Orph and is some other kind of role... A role that has the powers of an Oph, but HP/Rage of a more powerful role... That doesn't sound like a town role.

BTW, something I noticed. Rage and HP appeared to be tied. I could be wrong, but it looks like if you have less than 10 HP, you have only 4 max rage. I don't know this for certain because I really only have Matt and Xalxe's claims to prove that with but... Someone with 4 max rage could confirm or deny that. Although max rage and max hap might not be tied to each other at all.

[Kinetic]

I remember that (I had actually forgotten about it in the mean time), but I have no idea who used that ability either. If you remember correctly, I believe I was the first one who brought up the fact that I wasn't hurt by it. But the more I thought about it, the more I wondered if there was an ability. I remember asking about it, but no one ever said anything. For a while I thought it was a role too, but I'm not sure if that's it. Its completely possible it was something that we just don't understand about the game. I know Flay has been cagey whenever I have PMed him questions. I kind of wrote it off.

Wait... wtf. Why did Peregrine's second attack not him me? Interesting...

The problem is... No one has ever claimed that ability. Or anything like it. It is unlike ANY ability that has ever been in this game.

Frankly Zed, I'm not completely sure its a town ability. And now I'm starting to think that it was KKB. And if he is not a normal Orph, I don't think he's town. He hasn't ever been clear with us. I'm starting to look at KKB v LLD as scum who has a result on scum from another team...

And your entire post, while interesting, frankly means nothing. It just sort of reiterates what you've already been saying pretty much all game. OMG Kinetic is scum. *rolls eyes*. Its hilarious, besides your inability to see me as town, you've been an OK player. I'd almost think you're town. For instance, I find it funny that the only thing we seem to agree on is Tierce is the other's scum partner...

...

...

It couldn't possibly be that Tierce and LLD were scum buddies and KKB was solo scum all along... could it?

[Kinetic]

unvote; vote: Tierce

Color me curious...

[Kinetic]

It couldn't possibly be that Tierce and LLD were scum buddies and KKB was solo scum all along... could it?

But while this could maybe be a thing (I don't think it is), why go for Tierce first?

I'm waiting for KKB right now, and the vote is actually testing something else.

[Kinetic]

unvote; vote: Tierce

Color me curious...

Go on, enlighten me on

how I am scum

. Especially since now you're calling me scum with LLD and before now all you had was "Zdenek-Tierce".

Your logic makes no sense. Please, Kinetic. Go read my previous games. Especially, go read my scum ones. The difference is astounding, but you're discarding

anything

from meta due to me simply saying that meta-wise, I cannot be scum. Go on then--check my games and prove me wrong. Just don't say that my meta defense is convenient

when you haven't bothered to check if it holds

. As Town, I'm expected to defend myself, and I have a long history that supports the evidence of my alignment in this game.

I absolutely hate meta-defense. When someone says "Look, this is how I act as scum" it makes me believe "Well no shit, you know it well enough to fake it.

And would you please just shut up, I'm curious of something else right now. shush.

[Kinetic]

"Go do your research on me" doesn't fly for me. But at the same time, shush.

[Kinetic]

"Go do your research on me" doesn't fly for me. But at the same time, shush.

You aren't who I want to talk to right now.

[Kinetic]

Ok... the person I wanted to comment on my vote didn't, instead the two people who I didn't want to, did...

unvote

Thinking...

[Kinetic]

Ok... the person I wanted to comment on my vote didn't, instead the two people who I didn't want to, did...

unvote

Thinking...

When you flag a reaction test with REACTION TEST GUYS REACTION TEST PAY ATTENTION, it's not going to work.

-.-;

[Kinetic]

I didn't expect you to trample all over it. And then keep doing so. If you notice, all of those posts were in response to you. It might have still worked after the first. You doubling down though did pretty much ruin it afterword, I agree.

[Kinetic]

Although in a way it did. I don't believe Zed is serious in his suspicion of you. Either you are his scum partner or he's protecting Qui. If he had went on to you, I might have believed him town, or at the very least that you weren't his scum partner. His ignoring you... I'm not sure now. Its either you and Zed or Zed and Qui. Or, its possible its just Zed left and KKB is third party.

[Kinetic]

.......

You vote me, make that initial post in reply to Xalxe, and then expect me to

accept

a clear reaction test vote and sit on it like it pleases me that you're voting me?

If you're going to do reaction tests,

get better ones

. Don't blame me for ruining something that was shitty to begin with. Want a good reaction test? That was me saying I had Raged MattP when I hadn't, and then not simply blurting it out on the next post.

Treating scumspects like scum are stupid and will jump into obvious traps is ridiculous.

Stop lecturing me. It's over.

[Kinetic]

Still waiting on kkb's claim.

[Kinetic]

I said I was done.

I have this problem with replying to posts before reading the rest of the thread. Apologies.

[Kinetic]

Although in a way it did. I don't believe Zed is serious in his suspicion of you. Either you are his scum partner or he's protecting Qui. If he had went on to you, I might have believed him town, or at the very least that you weren't his scum partner. His ignoring you... I'm not sure now. Its either you and Zed or Zed and Qui. Or, its possible its just Zed left and KKB is third party.

You are such obvious scum. Nothing that you do is genuine. Why in God's name would I follow you onto Tierce, when I've got highly likely town Kanye voting you? I might be suspicious of Tierce, and by PoE, my money'd be on her being scum at this point, but there are other possibilities, and you need to go; this stunt is all the more reason for that.

You've got Kanye voting me? Kanye, is it because of Zed that you're voting me?

You're the one who needs to go scum. I know you can taste it, your victory is almost assured isn't it? Now you just need to keep hammering that point, Kinetic is scum. You've been doing it all game. While I'm sure you're scum, I'm still looking for your partner, trying to see if, for some god forsaken reason you might still be town. But you, you're so sure, you've been so sure this whole fucking game. Its unnatural. You've gone out of your way to paint everything I've done as scummy. In fact, the one person who was sure I was town you killed.

Wait a fucking second...

BRB, I'm checking something...

You fucking killed void because he was on my side too... didn't you? In the beginning of the game, Void, myself and quadz had a nice little voting block going, and you knew you'd never break that, so you killed him with your scum buddies, didn't you? Why else would you kill quadz?

[Kinetic]

btw heres a few quick reasons why kinetic is scum cus id like to get crackin on him being dead:
pushing zdenek who is pretty much conftown for being a seraph with no other seraph claimed

Zed was forced to claim early. It could very well be that the only Seraph is scum. I fail to see how a seraph claim is a conftown. In fact, as far as I see it, Seraph was pretty much a scum claim in my book. Add to the fact that Zed was locked into that claim for about 1000+ posts (yes, I knew Zed was a Seraph for a while, and that was part of the reason I re-evaluated a bunch of times), but the fact remains, he's been acting like scum!

claiming arel when its very likely we dont have another arel and scum do have an arel/seraph

How do you know that there isn't a town Arel and there is a scum Seraph? Also, I wasn't the only one who claimed Arel. Except, you're starting to get the disease Zed has and only have eyes for me. Sorry bud, I already got a date to the dance.

killing yos when he had momentum despite there being a guilty on lld

Point of fact: You didn't claim you had a guilty on LLD, despite being asked to do so. Further, Yos was pushing YOU when he was under pressure if you remember. I was still pretty sure both YOS and LLD were scum.

trying to now paint me as third party (seriously?)

Yes seriously, your inability to do anything at all is fucking annoying. You've not acted town all game, the best you've done is the ONE semi-guilty which as far as I'm concerned holds less and less weight as you move further into this game.

"your the worst conftown ever oh btw im lynching everyone who you express a strong town read on"
seriously you pushed matt for how long when he was obvtown as fuck?

Bullshit. Matt was not obvtown as fuck, and if you noticed I never put a single hurt or rage on Matt. I wasn't alone in that feeling. Or do you remember me STOPPING MATT FROM BEING HURT BY ANYONE until you returned because I was basically BEGGING you to help me out. I couldn't read Matt like you could. I thought he was reading scum. You were conveniently GONE. Don't fucking blame ME for Matt, when that belongs squarely at your feet. I said Quadz was town, if YOU had been around and said Matt was town, perhaps we could have moved on to someone else, but instead, it worked better for you to be silent. Matt and Quadz both dead.

BTW, who killed quadz? Right, Zed.

hes fucking scum whos been riding his early game hard as hell.

And what are you? You've been riding a single, solitary move the entire game, and despite BEGGING from multiple players for you to participate you've done nothing but at BEST be a hinderence. Now you want to come out of this like you're squeeky clean. Bullshit. Bullshit upon bullshit.

Now you're even backing off your claim. Suddenly you only have 4 max rage. I'm starting to see bullshit coming down bullshit creek from you over and over again.

Glad to see you FINALLY fucking participating. Kind of was BEGGING for you to do it, idk, 30 pages ago.

[Kinetic]

Tierce + Xalxe

Wait... what?

vote:Qui

[Kinetic]

Why do you think Xalxe is scum?

[Kinetic]

...

[Kinetic]

As far as I'm concerned, if there is a third party it can only be KKB. That being said, I don't think its as clear cut as you say Xalxe. If there are two scum AND they are working together, if we go about your plan than it really does matter who we kill first. We need to get a scum that was with LLD. If there is only one left, than it is like you said. If it isn't, and one of LLD's scum partners is {Tierce or You} and the other is in {Zed, KKB, Qui} then choosing who to kill in {Zed, KKB, Qui} is important.

I still feel rather strongly that there is enough evidence to make it so that KKB couldn't be with LLD, thus, if we kill the order

should be

{Zed or Qui} first, the other second, and KKB third. Even if KKB is a third party in this case, it will still be at worst 2 town, 1 scum, and third party, assuming one of {Xalxe, Tierce} was on a scum team with LLD.

Therefore: Refining your plan a bit, we should kill in the following order: Zed -> Qui -> KKB. If the game doesn't end, at best there is one scum remaining in {Tierce, Xalxe, Kinetic}. My money is on Tierce in that case, but I'm willing to wait until we reach that point before choosing.

[Kinetic]

In fact, I'm so sure that Xalxe is town, if it gets to Tierce/Me/Xalxe, i'm willing to blow my rage on Tierce, let him blow his on me, we can widdle each other down to a couple life each, and then let Xalxe kill us both. That way, we pretty much ensure a town win.

PEdit: ... If that was a scum claim I'm going to slap you in end game...

[Kinetic]

Follow me Tierce, kill Zed, use your rage. Tap into your hate, you know you want to.

vote:Zed

Come now, let's kill this scum bag off and move on, k?

[Kinetic]

Nope. I still haven't read and I won't be voting without it.

Then please fucking read. You've had over a fucking week man. This stalling is getting to be bullshit. Last time we took a long time the scum started getting bonuses, remember. If that starts happening again we might be in a bad situation.

[Kinetic]

Xalxe, Jesus Christ.

KKB, Me, and Quilford scum over Kinetic and Tierce?

If you're town, fuck you. KKB could be scum, but it's highly unlikely. I'm obviously town. Quilford, is at least a reasonable bet for scum, but Kinetic is so obvious that the fact that you aren't seeing it is distressing.

Actually, WHY IN GOD'S NAME ARE YOU UNWILLING TO CHECK MY META? YOU CHECKED TIERCE'S.

Dude, you're so scum its obvious. Look at what you've done all game. At best you've been lurking, and the ENTIRE time you've been focused on you. Maybe that is your "town meta" but it is absolute shit and easy to replicate. Meanwhile, I've been looking for scum, trying to find townies, trying to keep everyone in line with the plans, policing the votes, AND dealing with you up my ass the whole fucking time. I've thought you were scum, but I have also been doing other things this whole game, trying to find town and scum. You simply HAVEN'T. At all. Yet, for everything I've done, all you can say is "Kinetic is scum". That's it.

If you put anyone else under the same level of scrutiny that you've put me under you'd find them scum as well. You are so clearly in confirmation bias, even the people who

think you might be town

don't believe you.

Times up. I said at the beginning we shouldn't have left you to the end, that you were nothing but a hindrance at BEST. And what have you done? You killed quadz despite him being obvTown just because he was agreeing with me. You went after Xalxe for the longest time, simply because I was sure he was town. You have an about face about Xalxe near the end of the game. I'll even admit, I forgot about the missing damage, but I think the reason you never did was because

you actually know where it came from

. You

know

it was a scum ability. But you also know that

you couldn't claim it.

Because no one would believe that a Seraph would have that ability.

That leaves two possibilities. One: That ability was LLD's ability. She was planning to use it to confirm herself at some point before KKB caught her. Two: It is a scum factional ability and you couldn't claim it.

If it IS a scum ability, that means that you are the last scum on LLD's team.

Fucking checkmate scumbag.

[Kinetic]

lambda was an ophan. it wasnt her ability. it is very likely that its a scum power, however. i can agree with that.

For all we know. Perhaps the scum Orphan/Seraph have different abilities on top of the original/normal abilities. It kind of makes sense that Zed would continually say "look at the PM on the front page" instead of explain his abilities himself. Just in case he slips and mentions something not up front.

[Kinetic]

also fairly certain the last 2 scum are in {kinetic, tierce, quilford} as long as were playin the game where we throw these groupings out.

If you believe that: Xalxe's plan wins the game for town.

[Kinetic]

also fairly certain the last 2 scum are in {kinetic, tierce, quilford} as long as were playin the game where we throw these groupings out.

If you believe that: Xalxe's plan wins the game for town.

Never mind, that's assuming I'm town. As I know I'm town, that would make it work, but because you don't know that it doesn't work.

[Kinetic]

More likely that it was Voidedmafia being roleblocked than Kinetic being protected, fwiw.

/two cents

Okay, bed.

But seriously, Zdenek, I want some sort of explanation as to why you aren't even appearing to consider ADwD.

?

You mean PV being blocked? Although I suppose a block would make more sense than a protection as a scum ability... Why would you think its a block?

[Kinetic]

Honestly, I know this is WIFOM as all hell, but if I had control of that kind of ability, I would both have claimed it, and I wouldn't have used it when it was used. I also wouldn't have mentioned it like 3 posts after it was used. Again, all WIFOM, sure, but whatever the ability is, I find it very difficult to believe that anyone would think I have any control over it. Frankly, I was completely sure any damage from PV would have been healed, especially at that point in the game.

[Kinetic]

This is what I'm talking about. With us this close to end game, I'm betting we'll get more drains and soon global hurts as well. We don't have time to dilly-dally too long.

[Kinetic]

I think you're misunderstanding what Zed is doing Xalxe.

You see, he has two motives. First, he knows he's so close to winning the game, but he needs to pull at least one more vote on me before he can kill me and wash his hands of it when I flip town. Second, he realizes that you're the key person holding the noose around his neck right now. Your plan is the one that will lose him the game if it goes through. The crux of all of that is both Tierce and your read on Tierce. If Tierce supports your plan, that's three people and Zed is dead no matter if he ends up killing me or not. If he can either shake Tierce off of it, or shake your faith in Tierce (by, perhaps, shaking your read on Tierce by looking at the specific examples you've found and disputing them), then his plan works.

It doesn't matter what

Zed

feels about Tierce at all here. Zed is trying to trick

you

into following his lead.

[Kinetic]

btw heres a few quick reasons why kinetic is scum cus id like to get crackin on him being dead:
pushing zdenek who is pretty much conftown for being a seraph with no other seraph claimed

Zed was forced to claim early. It could very well be that the only Seraph is scum. I fail to see how a seraph claim is a conftown. In fact, as far as I see it, Seraph was pretty much a scum claim in my book. Add to the fact that Zed was locked into that claim for about 1000+ posts (yes, I knew Zed was a Seraph for a while, and that was part of the reason I re-evaluated a bunch of times), but the fact remains, he's been acting like scum!

maybe my remembering is wrong but im pretty posi. that he was not forced into claiming. in fact the earliest i can find in his iso or remember is that he needlessly bladed fate while everyone was trying to stack onto him. so exactly how does his claim lead you to think hes scum?

Zed was one of the first to claim in the "popcorn" claim, but as you correctly found, he "bladed" much earlier in the game, showing his hand that he was a Seraph. I picked up on that, and I'm not sure who else did, but it was obvious. Around that time is also when I started thinking that Zed was close to conftown for both that, and for the timing issue. I figured, if town had a Seraph, there was only one, and possibly could have gone for a mass claim to find any other Seraphs and would have been very OK with lynching any we found save Zed. However, the timing idea, as well as my other ideas, kind of went out the window when Yos (and eventually Matt) both flipped town. Zed was still strongly town in my book, but there were certainly things that might set me off and make me think he wasn't quite acting townie. I'm sure you can look through the game and find me waffling a lot on my Zed read. He played like scum, but he had lots of out of game things going for him that made me think he was town.

Now, in every previous WiH there has been at least one Seraph scum. I would strongly believe that if there is one here, its either Zed or they're hiding. Assuming Seraphs have 5 rage, which I think I'm pretty secure in believing, that leaves Myself, Zed, Qui, and I think Tierce also has 5 rage as possible Seraphs, assuming one of myself, Qui, or Tierce is lying about their role. At the same time, I don't actually think it is in the scums best interest to lie about their role. There could just as likely have been 2 or 3 seraphs in the game, and Flay could just as easily put two town Seraphs to make someone like me second guess it. Further, with the game so close, a player using the Seraph ability now that didn't claim it would instantly be lynched. It would be a no brainer.

Additionally, the way I see it, scum are probably very close to winning, depending on several things. They might only need one more bad lynch to win. This is part of why I really strongly feel that Zed's tunneling me all game is extraordinarily suspicious. It makes perfect sense from his book as scum, but doesn't make sense as town. Frankly, I have played very town from what I can see. I can more see your movement on to me, it seems a lot more natural. Zed's has looked scummy as hell all game. He has gone out of his way to attack anyone who has stuck by me, and protected those I've gone after. From PV (first Zed was after him, then Zed swapped to protecting him), to Yos (First Zed went after him, then when Yos was going to die, he swapped away from him), even his flip on Xalxe is incredibly suspect. He had Xalxe in his "sure was scum book" while I was saying he was town. As soon as Xalxe becomes one of the key players though, Zed's read flips again, now Xalxe is impeccably town. Ironically, his read flipped when I started to question my Xalxe town read. Zed's play has almost tit for tat been an exact opposite mirror of mine all game. That isn't a town game plan, that's obstructionist play, and scum play in my book. There are very few times I've found that Zed has done something independent of what I've done. Sure, I'm sure you can point to something, but it seems whenever he makes a play that matters it is because its the opposite of mine.

And I strongly believe that this was even partially why void was killed. Back when he was killed there was a strong Me-Quadz-Void grouping. Void was killed by the scum, while Quadz was killed by Zed. I strongly suspect it was effectively done by the same party.

I'm also thinking the scum probably have more rage than we can account for from "townies", but I don't know exactly how they might be able to store that or whatever. In that case, claiming Seraph and basically going 1:1 with Zed is probably a good scum play. But no one did that. It really leads me to believe that there is only one seraph in this game. And it is my opinion, with all of the rage, that Seraph would be much more likely to be scum than town. Because, both you wouldn't expect the one seraph to be scum, if there is only one, and because it doesn't make much sense for scum to fake claim at this point.

Lastly, Zed has been locked into that claim for a while. Even assuming he wanted to claim Cherub or Arel to hide more, he couldn't. It would be an instant scum claim.

For all those reasons I really think Zed is scum.

[Kinetic]

I think Tierce also has 5 rage

Four.

Meh, that's me not paying attention.

Either way, one of three things then:

KKB or Tierce are lying about rage + angel type, myself or Qui is lying about angel type, or Zed is scumSeraph, or there is no scum seraph.

I think the two most likely scenarios are Zed or Qui is scum right now, or both are scum, so as I see it, my play sits perfectly in line with that. Then I have KKB -> Tierce in my kill order. As I say, my list is perfectly consistent there. Really, the more I think about it, the more my list and Xalxe's plan perfectly line up, and it makes me more confident that he's town in my book.

/in be4 Zed flips his read (again) and calls Xalxe scum.

[Kinetic]

Good post Zed. Makes you look totally townie. [/sarcasm]

[Kinetic]

KKB- Its really this simple: you're the only one standing in the way of the town winning right now. I believe the scum are Zed/Qui. It seems to be right and by how everything has played out right now, it seems perfect. Qui can't jump on me because it will just confirm it. He can't come to this side, because it will kill his scum buddy. Frankly, you, KKB, are the only one I'm not sure of. Either it is 10/2/1, 9/3/1, or 10/3. If it is 10/2/1, frankly KKB, it is you and Zed as scum. If it is 9/3/1, it is Zed/Qui team, KKB last scum. If it is 10/3, it is Zed/Qui scum.

The game is over with the fulfillment of the Xalxe plan. The only thing I'm not 100% of is Tierce as town. His waffling is noted, and it could turn everything upside down if he swaps to attacking me. But if that's the case, that just means I was wrong and Qui isn't Zed's buddy, Tierce is. The only other possibility is that the scum team is Qui/Tierce, in which case after Zed flips town, we have to immediately kill off Tierce/Qui.

Now, the only reason I can see for KKB to not see this, and to waffle too much is if he's third party. If he is third party, he WANTS scum Zed to survive, because third-party KKB wants to go into 5 with 1-2 scum, 2-3 town, and him. His best case scenario is this is 9/3/1 and its two scum, two town, and him. That's unlikely though, but its better for scumKKB to kill a townie right now. He wants to kill townKinetic because he thinks he's the most vulnerable, and then when Kinetic flips town, it will give him enough chaos to kill off Zedscum then, but town will have pretty much lost in that case.

The more I look at it, KKB, if you're town, help us kill Zed. You'll see him flip scum, you'll help us kill Qui and the game is over. If you are third party, your play is perfectly consistent, but don't worry, we will still get you eventually.

[Kinetic]

I'm taking bets, 2:1 that Zed will flip on his Xalxe read within the next 3 pages. Any takers?

[Kinetic]

Three points I want to bring up that really throw a complete wrench in everything Zed is saying:

1: Yos was scummy, but he is also incredibly smart. Everything Yos was saying was

exactly

how I expected scumYos to react. Add to that, while I wasn't completely sure about KKB's claim, I had LLD as extremely high on my scum list. In my eyes she was dying with or without my help. I wanted Yos dead too because I thought he was scum too. A few other moments for Yos: Yos voted KKB during LLD vs. KKB.

2: I understood what Matt did wrong, as I have made the Daylight Savings Time mistake on the board before. Hence why I didn't harp on it after he explained himself. I understood. It didn't make me think he was more town, but it made me think of other possibilities instead. Yos was still the priority.

3: Tierce, look at what you just said and look at the game. As soon as KKB made the half claim, who jumped off Yos and jumped right on LLD and then has been harping that scum couldn't be bussing because it is against how this game must be played. Zed did. All of that. If you can't trust my arguments for why Zed is scum, maybe you can trust your own.