Double-Headed & Speedy Deep South Massive public review

[Ren Hoek]

Shelvis?

I took it in a different direction...too long?

It doesn't easily lend itself to convenient abbreviations.



The avatar isn't shafted's wife.



Try again.

[elvis_knits]

hahaha... I <3 it.

[shaft.ed]

abreviate it SWSWC

The avatar is what happens when you mix Shaft and Elvis.

elvis gets it, that's all that matters.

[Adel]

Max, what alternative do you have in mind?

I can totally rationalize why the SK would "kill" himself. It could be an accident (poison, explosives, falling down the sairs with with a sharp knife in his hand, car accident, running with scissors) ... he could wait too long and feel like he is about to get caught... plus I like the mechanic for my own personal reasons. The important part is that IF there is a random kill, it will be public knowledge to all players that the kill was randomly chosen. If a player decides that random kill selection is optimal, I won't have a problem with that.

In terms of abstract game design, is there a problem with the mechanic?

[shaft.ed]

I agree with max. as long as this is in the Role PM:

you are immune to kills.

I don't see why he should die.

[Adel]

Serial Killer

You are an evil and calculating Serial Killer. Because you are so crafty, you are immune to kills

other than your own

.

is this the simple fix we are looking for?

[shaft.ed]

Serial Killer

You are an evil and calculating Serial Killer. Because you are so crafty, you are immune to kills

other than your own

.

is this the simple fix we are looking for?

If that's the way you want it to work, that's the way you should word it. I'm not sure I see the point of having the SK be able to suicide. IMHO just missing out on a NK is punishment enough.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Hi.

[PokerFace]

Nice. Avy has joker symbol in the corner

Edit: and a funny little creature too. may need way to put an alpaca in there but its looks pretty good as is

[populartajo]

Nice. Avy has joker symbol in the corner.

Heh.
This will be an amazing game.

[Adel]

Serial Killer

You are an evil and calculating Serial Killer. Because you are so crafty, you are immune to kills

other than your own

.

is this the simple fix we are looking for?

If that's the way you want it to work, that's the way you should word it. I'm not sure I see the point of having the SK be able to suicide. IMHO just missing out on a NK is punishment enough.

deleted my longish response. Insert mod WIFOM here.

editing now.

I really appreciate the feedback.

[shaft.ed]

cool avy

[Green Crayons]

I'm confused as to the purpose behind the "may kill yourself in the random choice if your action is chosen for you." I don't see how it adds anything to the actual affect and play of the game that the normal "if you don't make a choice, a random player [with the exception of you] will be targetted for you."

In both situations (where the random choice by the mod includes the SK and where it does not include the SK), an action

will

occur: either the SK will make the decision, or the mod will make the decision for the SK (via random selection). No actual difference in the outcome of an action taking place.

In both situations (same two), randomness can play a part regardless of the moderator's intervention. If the SK decides not to act, the mod uses randomness to decide. If the SK decides to act, they can hit up Random.org and use their RNG to find a target. No actual difference in the ability to use randomness.

However, it would seem that the "potential to target yourself" clause is intended to ensure that the SK is keeping up with the game segmented action blocks, but nothing else. The SK's player interaction will be kept in check by anti-lurking rules/other players. The SK's action night choice will be made regardless of any (in)action by the SK in either scenario, so the game won't be affected by a lack of the SK's required choice. The SK can use randomness with or without the moderator's assistance, so randomness can always be in play. So with that as the only goal of the clause (to ensure the SK is keeping up with the choice blocks), I find it a bit odd to throw in there when there are a slew of players who are lining up around the block to play the game.

It seems to be a pre-emptive judgment that someone is going to flake, which I find to be highly suspect seeing as how anxious these folks are to play. It also seems to be a potentially harsh/excessive consequence for accidently missing the end of a choice block without realizing it. In terms of abstract game design, it seems to excessively potentially punish the player in making a choice that they would never make for no reason other than missing/misjudging an action block.

[PoketheAlpaca]

PF here

All /in

[ekiM]

I would like to play. I don't know anybody, though.

[Adel]

GC, symmetry between the Compulsive Vig and the Sk is the primary reason for the random clause. Between all of the 84 hours blocks being explicitly listed in the first post in UTC (along with a link explaining the world's time zones and what UTC is, and link to a countdown timer for each action block), the hydra, and everyone being able predict what the next multiple of 150 is, there is no excuse for accidentally missing or misjudging an action block. If they do, then they are being penalized for poor play.

The SK

MUST

kill. The Compulsive Vig

MUST

kill.

I'm rather surprised that this is what is drawing attention. I expected an objection along the lines of "what if the town tries to force the Vig/SK to out herself day 1" which I was prepared to refuse to answer, or "what if the town tries to speed lynch as quickly as possible before the scum get another kill?" which I am honestly not sure about.

I'm not seeing why you guys don't like the random kill/possible suicide element. What are you saying that I am not hearing? What is wrong with the random kill/suicide?

[Max]

The SK would always rather kill during each time block BECAUSE the SK would want the town to believe that there is a vig not an SK, I don't see anything wrong with not providing Symmetry.

[Mr. Flay]

Self-annihilation of a Survivor role is not really good game design IMO. Self-annihilation of the Compulsive Vigilante at least doesn't autolose for his faction. I think the punishment does not fit the crime here, and it has the potential to totally jack somebody up if, say, Time-Warner or British Telecom have an outage or the guy down the street hits the power box with a backhoe five hours before the choice period ends. It's overkill; maybe force them to miss their next (chosen) kill if they ever miss a choice action? That's doubling the penalty without an autolose, and can be explained thematically for similar reasons (mental breakdown, etc).

What to do if the town tries to force a kill on their terms is up to the player who gets the role to decide, not the moderator. That's probably why you're not seeing pre-game commentary on that part.

[Max]

I have one question...

What would happen if 2 players decide to post obsessively just to go through 150 posts as quick as possible, would it be fair on the SK if he lost because some townies planned to go through that many posts at such a rate.

[shaft.ed]

I have one question...

What would happen if 2 players decide to post obsessively just to go through 150 posts as quick as possible, would it be fair on the SK if he lost because some townies planned to go through that many posts at such a rate.

Brilliant strategy, unless you don't mind killing of your town vig with the same odds.

[Green Crayons]

The SK MUST kill. The Compulsive Vig MUST kill.

I know. I understand. And the moderator usually makes the choice (via RNG) for the power role when a choice is not sent in. But I don't see how adding that actual SK to the pool of potential targets helps to accomplish ensuring the compulsive nature of the role. A choice will be made, regardless of if the SK sends in a night choice or not, regardless of whether or not the SK is part of the potential pool of random choices. The "you might target yourself in the random choice" clause does not affect the fact that a choice will be made.

If they do, then they are being penalized for poor play.

They are being penalized for poor play in just one section of the game, which ignores their play overall. If they are lurking, then the anti-lurk rules and other players will be nailing them on that front. Conversely, if they're totally up-to-date with discussion and are exceptionally active, you might be penalizing an otherwise good player. It's like you're taking a incredibly selective aspect of their play to determine their activity level and if it isn't up to par then their head might be on the chopping block.

It just seems weird to penalize them for poor play when the only "poor play" this targets is the player forgetting or missing a deadline - but in doing so, a choice is going to be made anyways, so it doesn't have any affect on the fact that a choice will be made. It has the potential to make a decision that would never otherwise be taken (suicide) which could poentially affect the game's course exponentially. The transgression and the reprocussion just seem incredibly out of sync. Not to mention the mental affect such a reprocussion will have: "I really want to wait until closer to the deadline, but I'm not sure if I will be around so I'm just going to make the kill now." It has a major affect on how the individual(s) play the game (more conservative), as the threat of a random suicide is nothing compared to instant loss.

I'm not seeing why you guys don't like the random kill/possible suicide element. What are you saying that I am not hearing? What is wrong with the random kill/suicide?

I don't think anyone takes issue with the random kill part. It's just the potential for suicide that has me scratching my head.

[shaft.ed]

^This guy's wordy^

[Mr. Flay]

I have one question...

What would happen if 2 players decide to post obsessively just to go through 150 posts as quick as possible, would it be fair on the SK if he lost because some townies planned to go through that many posts at such a rate.

Brilliant strategy, unless you don't mind killing of your town vig with the same odds.

Ugh, good point. WIH II frequently got 150 posts in 8-16 hours, even when the player base was cut down. I suspect with full hydras and the intentional encouragement of activity, this game could be similarly charged.

[Green Crayons]

^This guy's wordy^

And this is one of the times I'm really trying not to be. I'm finding it difficult to accurately and adequately describe my issue with the clause she's using.

[Adel]

I expect that hydras made up of players from different time-zones will enjoy a tactical advantage in both games.

. I think the punishment does not fit the crime here, and it has the potential to totally jack somebody up if, say, Time-Warner or British Telecom have an outage or the guy down the street hits the power box with a backhoe five hours before the choice period ends. It's overkill; maybe force them to miss their next (chosen) kill if they ever miss a choice action? That's doubling the penalty without an autolose, and can be explained thematically for similar reasons (mental breakdown, etc).

Thanks for offering an alternative. I am considering it. I think the threat of both Time-Warner & British Telecom taking a hit at the same time is slim though, and I don't think a hydrated Compulsive Vig or SK is going to miss a kill. Should I allow the vig and sk to pre-submitt their kills ( "as soon as the next block begins, I will kill ____" ) as an alternative solution?

Not to mention the mental affect such a reprocussion will have: "I really want to wait until closer to the deadline, but I'm not sure if I will be around so I'm just going to make the kill now." It has a major affect on how the individual(s) play the game (more conservative), as the threat of a random suicide is nothing compared to instant loss.

{snip}

I don't think anyone takes issue with the random kill part. It's just the potential for suicide that has me scratching my head.

perhaps I am just randomly hard-core like that. I like that mechanic, and the pressure it adds to that player.

Ugh, good point. WIH II frequently got 150 posts in 8-16 hours, even when the player base was cut down. I suspect with full hydras and the intentional encouragement of activity, this game could be similarly charged.

I think the threat of Scum and a trigger happy Vig or SK getting another kill in every 150 posts will discourage such. I expect the 84-hour bock game to be far more active than the 150-post block game.

I'm finding it difficult to accurately and adequately describe my issue with the clause she's using.

on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being "very minor quibble" and 10 being "she is making a huge mistake that could destroy the game" how severe is your objection? I estimate the risk to be of moderate intensity and unlikely probability.